Caio Reviews: Game of Thrones "The Mountain and the Viper"

Oh sorry you were expecting a cohesive opening? Well I expected something less brutal than what I got. I am still at shock at what happened with today's episode and I am having a hard time recaping/reviewing the other things that happened besides the ending. This pic above is pretty much my default expression as I write this review and I barely got any sleep without seeing that image popping up everytime I close my eyes.

But f*ck it lets get this sh*t going...

At the Night's Watch

South of Castle Black, Moletown is attacked by Tormund's wildling band that absolutely wrecks the place in a effort to draw out more Rangers and thin their numbers. Jon and his friends are arguing they should be defending the villages being attacked while Sam is absolutely mortified that he left Gilly and little Sam there to be killed, though his friends assure him that she survived much worse things than these and she will certainly make through that too (true enough, when the Wildlings attack Ygritte finds her but decides to spare both her and her son).

This is something I forgot to address in my reviews... Mance Ryder has an host of 100.000 men, ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND! This is a bigger number than the Lannisters and Tyrells forces combined! It mind-boggingly that the territory between the Lands of Always Winter and the Wall is big enough to contain such ridiculously vast number. The Night's Watch is surely f*cked with an iron rod since they have barely 100 men and enemies surrounding them from both sides. Our heroes know that they are going to certain death and the only thing they ask is that their corpses are burned so that they don't rise as Wights.

In the North

Ramsay Snow dresses Theon in his old armor so that he can arrange the peace terms with the Ironborn occupying Moat Caillin. Theon tries to reason with them, though he is having problems balancing the Reek persona with his old self. The Ironborn commander is still stubborn to keep holding the fort despite his men being besieged from all sides and running out of provisions fast, this changes when his men say "f*ck that noise" and throw an ax in his head. Though Theon assures them that no harm will come to them if they surrender, we are soon treated to the Ironmen corpses flayed and tortured since they feel to Ramsay's trap. With Moat Caillin finally taken, the Boltons are able to reunify their forces and now march to Winterfell and take their place as Wardens of the North.

Heh, I knew these guys were dead meat the second Theon said the Boltons would reward them as he rewarded him. The funny part is that the leader got off an easy death compared to the rest of his men who turned on him and surrendered. Also Ramsay is acknowledged as Roose's legitimate heir and given the Bolton surname just as he wanted for so long, which would have being a heartwarming moment if both characters were not such despicable monsters. Meh, I am still calling him Snow out of spite...

I love how Roose mentions that there has being no word on Locke since he left to hunt Bran and Rickon down and points out he might be dead, yet he then dismiss it, saying he must had succeded in his mission anyway despite no confirmation. I mean, Roose was pretty worried that if the other lords discovered they were still alive, it would have being a matter of time before they come to rally under the Starks' cause. I think that now the way to the North is ensured and Winterfell is his now, he has nothing to worry anymore, but I would hold my breath if I was him...

At Meereen

So Jorah, how does it feel to be exiled twice?

I am just going to this out of the way before we move on to the big incident that happens with Daenerys and Jorah. There is an obvious build up for a romance between Missandei and Grey Worm and there are two problems I have with them: A. he is a freaking eunuch, which may be pretty difficult to work a romantic relationship around and B. they are such minor, peripheral characters I can't really feel any investiment in their relationship when alpha couples end up so messed up (like we seen with Shae/Tyrion).

Then this part of the episode goes to sh*t when a message is delivered to Barristan the Bold, displaying the Hand of the King from Westeros, which turns out to be the pardon that Jorah received for his work as an spy for Varys (which may have being that letter forged by Tywin in "The First of His Name"). He is called upon Daenerys' throne room to confront her and when he is forced to admit the truth, she comes just short of breathing fire on him (euphemism). Despite he pleading that he loved her , she has absolutely none of it and orders Jorah to leave Meereen at once before breaking dawn or she will have him executed.

Goddamn, Dany... This man may had started out working for your enemy, but he switched teams out of love. He offered advice and counsel, killed for you, tries to reason with you and you decide to tell him to f*ck off? That was a very sh*tty thing to do, but ultimately not without an understandable reason on Dany's part. Though I could argue it would have being not a smart decision to exile him, since he is one of her most loyal and trusted advisors, it has being made repeatedly clear she dimissess advices given by from them and does what as she wills. Ultimately from a personal standpoint, really sh**ty thing to do, Dany. You know that you going to need every loyal subject you can get, but she keeps making one terrible decision after the other...

In the Eyrie

Littlefinger is brought before the Vale lords to be questioned about Lysa's death, with them being right to suspect something is fishy about him. Sansa is called to give her testimony, though to the rest of the council, she is believed to be Baelish's niece Alayne. She quickly reveals the truth about her identity as an Stark and how Littlefinger managed to get her the hell out of King's Landing after Joffrey's death and the last minute saying that Lysa killed herself after Petyr kissed Sansa in the cheek (when that was soooooooooo not the case at all)

I really liked that scene because for a second there, I believed she was about to split the beans and tell absolutely f*cking everything Petyr worked for and she held him right there by the balls. Sansa is an character that ever since the Season 1 finale, she has being in absolute deep sh*t and whenever things looked like they might turn for the better, fate pulls the yank chain and make her life suck still. The Vale Lords claim that they were honorable and they knew her father well, but they are complete strangers and as far as she knows, they would sell her out to Cersei if the opportunity presented itself. Having only Littlefinger to rely on, for once, she is taking a proactive stance and decides to play by Petyr's game and screw around with him (not in that sense, thankfully enough) and even going as changing her outfit to something more... flattering, to represent her turn around as a character.

I knew Sophie Turner was a babe, but daaaaaaaaaaaamnnnn...

And we close the Eyrie with Arya and the Hound reaching the Bloody Gate, ready to ransom the poor girl to her aunt... Unfortunately Lysa had died three days ago, which made their entire journey from the start of the season pointless. Arya realized the dramatic irony of this being the second time the person the Hound wants to ransom her to died right before their arrival and/or the fact that her situation (as far as she knows) has gotten a lot worse again (with the wound likely being infected and her protector therefore being in serious danger). I felt more awkward than anything, since this was not the reaction I expected, but since this child had her innocence destroyed inch by inch with every season, I should have known better now.

At King's Landing

After having a very awkward and strange conversation about an long-dead relative obsessed with killing beetles, Tyrion is called upon to witness his trial by combat between Prince Oberyn Martell and Ser Gregor Clegane. This long waited scene delivers in every aspect, such as being faithful to the source material, well-shot and showcasing awesome displays of action.

Firstly lets look at how Gregor did. Despite being toyed around with and ultimately skewered and stabbed multiple times by Oberyn's spear, Gregor was a f*cking tank throughout the fight, hurling blow after blow at his opponent and tossing him around like a rag doll whenever he got his hands on him. While Oberyn was certainly faster and more skilled, Gregor's strength was nearly enough to give him the edge. And of course there's what happened when Oberyn let his guard down after winning the fight....

Secondly Oberyn. Put simply, Oberyn not just won, but DOMINATED the fight against the most feared knight in Westeros, while giving him a speech that could make Inigo Montoya blush. After starting the fight with an almost polite introduction to his opponent, he calmly reminds Gregor of how he raped his sister, murdered her, then killed her children, and as the fight goes on, and as he effortlessly avoids Gregor's blows, using his spear to tear away at Gregor's armour, he keeps repeating "You raped her, you murdered her, you killed her children", at first arrogant but growing increasingly enraged as the fight goes on and he wears Gregor down. Then, after unbalancing Gregor, he rounds on him one last time and furiously roars "YOU RAPED HER! YOU MURDERED HER!" as Gregor lunges at him, only for Oberyn to dodge, rip his spear down the back of Gregor's calf sending him to his knees, and then charge the prone giant with his spear as he screams "YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN!", impaling him through the stomach to the arena floor.

Oberyn then circles Gregor's panting, defeated body, demanding he confess his crime and demanding he reveal it was Tywin who ordered this, standing right above his body as he demands that he say it.... only for Gregor to effortlessly bat the legs from under him with a swipe of his forearm, easily drag Oberyn on top of him so he can smash his face in with a single punch. Then as Oberyn lies beside him coughing up blood and teeth, Gregor just leaps up on top of him, shove his thumbs into Oberyn's eye sockets, and as he slowly crushes the man's skull as he shrieks in agony, Gregor triumphantly growls

Gregor: Elia Martell. I killed her children. THEN I RAPED HER. THEN I SMASHED HER HEAD IN LIKE THIS!!!

Gregor then slams Oberyn's head against the ground so hard it literally explodes in a shower of blood, bone, and brain, before finally succumbing to his wounds and passing out next to him.

No way I am posting that scene over here, so instead have Ellaria's reaction to her beloved getting splattered

I can say with no exageration, this was the most nightmarish and gruesome death I've seen in this series so far - even with such dubious standards Joffrey's poisoning and Talisa's stabbing don't come nowhere near close. Safe to say, I already knew Oberyn was going to die since I had previous knowledge from the source material, but for all my preparation I was still horrified to my f*cking core due to how graphic it was, how exceedingly agonizing it looked having his eyes being gouged before his skull exploding like an watermelon. What made his death even more heartbreaking was due to Oberyn being such likable and sympathetic character that I pretty much enjoyed each of his scenes from the start of the season until now.

The only pleasure I can possibly get with Oberyn's death is that now any chance of the Lannisters forming an alliance with Dorne is ruined. Do you really think Tywin, that the Dornish will allow this without wanting to retaliate when their prince's brains are splattered over the ground? I hope you enjoy your brother's execution, Cersei, cause you ain't going to see your daughter Myrcella anytime soon, since she is pretty much a hostage (you know the same way Sansa was yours for many years). Oh and Clegane confessed he raped Elia Martell and killed her children in front of an audience to hear, including at least a few Dornish. DO YOU ALL HONESTLY THINK YOU CAN KEEP THAT SH*T UNDER THE WRAPS NOW?!?!?! Gods...

When you think about the bigger picture, Tyrion's fate might be sealed, but his enemies' victory will be none the bitter

Closing Thoughts

To say this episode was good or bad is kinda of an moot point, This is an WTF-level episode the same way as the Rains of Castamere. I will say that, I would sooner watch the Red Wedding over and over again. than Oberyn's death once more. I know that lasted like 20 seconds, but those 20 seconds were more personally agonizing than seeing all the heroic faction of the war getting betrayed and butchered. I might be overreacting right now, I will give this, the duel between the Oberyn and Gregor was sure awesome and delivered in all I expected, I just can't stomach watching the fight's end once again.

Phew... Next episode will be "The Watchers on the Wall" and be prepared, that will be the climatic episode of the season!

105 Comments
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Posted by RogueShadow

I still feel slightly sick.

Posted by JakeN7

"My name is Inigo Montoya Oberyn Martell, you killed my father sister, prepare to die."

I now want a full scene-for-scene remake of Princess Bride with every character recast as a GoT character.

Posted by JakeN7

@dragonborn_ct: Yo, Caio! I think it's safe to say our personalities must differ quite a bit. :3

I know you said that was the most gruesome death by far, and you probably couldn't watch it again, but I-I...uh...I kind of rewound the DVR and watched it several times over. >_> Oberyn's head asplosion was heartbreakingly entertaining to me. *shrugs*

Also, you mentioned feeling awkward and uncomfortable with Arya's laughter. Well I found it so hilarious that I laughed even harder than she did. I laughed until my face turned bright red and tears were streaming down my cheeks. Honestly, that scene was more memorable to me than Oberyn's melon getting squished.

So yeah, looks like we look at some things quite differently. xD

Edited by Ostyo

@jaken7: Ha, you're a Joffery in the making!

Edited by JakeN7

@ostyo: Meh, more like an Arya. I wasn't finding enjoyment in Oberyn's headsplosion, I just thought it was fascinating. Like watching a train wreck, ya know? Also, I didn't think Lysa being dead was funny, I just thought the morbid irony of it was gut-bustingly hilarious is all. :P

Posted by OverLordArhas

@jaken7:

Jaken7 GoT fanboy mode at 3, 2, 1...........

Edited by JakeN7

@jonny_anonymous: After nearly 4 seasons...it's really and truly your own fault for expecting anything different. FFS, what did you expect? Oberyn was going to get his revenge, set Tyrion free, they'd forge a new alliance between Dorne and the Lannisters, Myrcella would get to come home and see her mother, then everyone lives happily ever after? NO! This is GAME OF THRONES! Seven hells man.

Don't get me wrong, I'll miss Oberyn as well. I just never expected any other outcome than what we got really.

Posted by Ostyo

@jaken7: Sure Joffery 2.0, I believe you. :P

Edited by JakeN7
Posted by OverLordArhas

Full Fanboy Mode Activated

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous: After nearly 4 seasons...it's really and truly your own fault for expecting anything different. FFS, what did you expect? Oberyn was going to get his revenge, set Tyrion free, they'd forge a new alliance between Dorne and the Lannisters, Myrcella would get to come home and see her mother, then everyone lives happily ever after? NO! This is GAME OF THRONES! Seven hells man.

Don't get me wrong, I'll miss Oberyn as well. I just never expected any other outcome than what we got really.

There is many other dark fantasy books that does what ASoIaF tries to do but much better. All they do is introduce characters, have them do nothing and then kill them off because they think it's provocative. It's so predictable that it's not even funny. Any character that is in anyway remotely decent will die, none of them will get a satisfying ending to their story be it happy or not.

Posted by Lateralus

@jonny_anonymous: So you are telling me that Daenerys and Tyrion don't get married and adopt the Stark girls at the end? Dammit, I wasted 4 seasons worth of TV show watching and 5 books worth of reading for nothing....

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@lateralus: I didn't say anything about it having a happy ending.....

Edited by JakeN7

@jonny_anonymous said:

There is many other dark fantasy books that does what ASoIaF tries to do but much better.

Good luck with them then.

All they do is introduce characters, have them do nothing and then kill them off because they think it's provocative.

That isn't even remotely true and you know it. Unless you're just feeling bitter for the time being, in which case, it'll pass. And they don't just kill characters to be provocative. There hasn't been a death of any foreground character that was unprovoked and didn't have far-reaching implications.

It's so predictable that it's not even funny.

Bwahaha! Oh please, if you saw this coming, then why are you so upset? One of the most popular kinds of viral videos is literally just a recording of people watching the show at specific moments. Reaction videos. If it was sooooo predictable, how does it garner such shocking reactions?

Any character that is in anyway remotely decent will die, none of them will get a satisfying ending to their story be it happy or not.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that Oberyn was the last decent character left? That doesn't even make sense. As to your second complaint, that is not known, Khaleesi. There are still 2 books to go, so unless you're a time traveller, I don't know how you could say that. Even Oberyn had a satisfying ending to his story. The death of his sister and her children overtook the man that Oberyn once was. Like Batman in a way, the only thing he longed for in this world was vengeance. And he got it. In the end (quite literally), he got his confession, and was even able to take The Mountain down with him.

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7: They absolutely do kill characters for provocation, R.R Martin has even said in interviews that was specifically what the Red Wedding was for. Dany will die, Jon will die, the Hound will die and none of them will be in the least bit organic or satisfying.

Posted by JakeN7

@jaken7: They absolutely do kill characters for provocation, R.R Martin has even said in interviews that was specifically what the Red Wedding was for. Dany will die, Jon will die, the Hound will die and none of them will be in the least bit organic or satisfying.

No he didn't, and no it wasn't. Link me the interview. She hasn't yet, he hasn't yet, and...no comment. But it fits with his character, and they've already been hinting at it these past two episodes. It's a dumb way for Sandor to go down, but it's rather appropriate, especially after his brother's death.

Posted by Dragonborn_CT

@lateralus: @jaken7: You know, Jonny has a point... What reason are you going to be invested in the series if all compelling protagonists are getting killed off or the ones that remains by sh**ting them on constantly. In fact, Martin is so adamant on this tack that he pursues it even when it results in phenomenally bad narrative decisions, like killing off a main character for no reason at all and with no payoff or flushing several months of character development down the toilet... And if the characters keep getting the rug pulled out from under them, what reason do I have to remain invested in their plight?" Had any other writer pulled that sh*t, everyone would have uttered the deadly eight words"I don't care what happens to these people." And somehow we are supposed to give him a free pass for that?

Okay we gonna let that turn to sh*t how it happened to A Feast of Crows, a book filled with absolutely nothing but filler and the POV of assholes, with none of the likable and compelling characters from before.

Posted by JakeN7

@lateralus: @jaken7: You know, Jonny has a point... What reason are you going to be invested in the series if all compelling protagonists are getting killed off or the ones that remains by sh**ting them on constantly. In fact, Martin is so adamant on this tack that he pursues it even when it results in phenomenally bad narrative decisions, like killing off a main character for no reason at all and with no payoff or flushing several months of character development down the toilet... And if the characters keep getting the rug pulled out from under them, what reason do I have to remain invested in their plight?" Had any other writer pulled that sh*t, everyone would have uttered the deadly eight words"I don't care what happens to these people." And somehow we are supposed to give him a free pass for that?

Okay we gonna let that turn to sh*t how it happened to A Feast of Crows, a book filled with absolutely nothing but filler and the POV of assholes, with none of the likable and compelling characters from before.

Would you like to list examples or just continue your ambiguous rambling? I'm still invested in Arya, Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Jamie, and Sansa's plight. Nothing has changed that, and nothing will.

Posted by JakeN7
Posted by Dragonborn_CT

@jaken7 said:

@dragonborn_ct said:

@lateralus: @jaken7: You know, Jonny has a point... What reason are you going to be invested in the series if all compelling protagonists are getting killed off or the ones that remains by sh**ting them on constantly. In fact, Martin is so adamant on this tack that he pursues it even when it results in phenomenally bad narrative decisions, like killing off a main character for no reason at all and with no payoff or flushing several months of character development down the toilet... And if the characters keep getting the rug pulled out from under them, what reason do I have to remain invested in their plight?" Had any other writer pulled that sh*t, everyone would have uttered the deadly eight words"I don't care what happens to these people." And somehow we are supposed to give him a free pass for that?

Okay we gonna let that turn to sh*t how it happened to A Feast of Crows, a book filled with absolutely nothing but filler and the POV of assholes, with none of the likable and compelling characters from before.

Would you like to list examples or just continue your ambiguous rambling? I'm still invested in Arya, Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Jamie, and Sansa's plight. Nothing has changed that, and nothing will.

What examples would you like to list? How Dany lost sight of her end goal and is more interested in freeing slaves (despite it being detrimental to her quest) and being a bitch? How the other sympathetic characters are in no position to make a difference in this putrid corpse of a continent?

Posted by Samimista

Hey now, let's not all argue here. If anything take it to PM. Caio spends a lot of time writing up these reviews and I'd imagine he probably loses a lot of rest for getting these out every Monday. It isn't easy writing up reviews like how he does. Let's appreciate what he does.

That said, @dragonborn_ct - I knew it was gonna happen but did not expect it to be that brutal. Did watch it again this morning and probably won't again anytime soon. Kudos to Ellaria's actress for sounding so realistic. My heart goes out to the character.

Certainly seems Sansa is becoming LF's pet! I could be wrong but, I think in the books he wants her to wed Robin? Do you think this will happen on the show? It seems like she might actually stay with LF? Did love her dress at the end but, it seems it might of been to please him?

Didn't expect Arya to laugh! xD And the beetle speech was so random! I get it could of been perhaps how Gregor kills humans so easily but, thought there could of been a better example. xD

Great review like always mate! Looking forward to next week's. =)

Edited by JakeN7

That interview only further proved my points.

"EW: How early in the process of writing the book series did you know you were gonna kill off Robb and Catelyn?"

"GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

He knew from the get go. It wasn't to be provocative, he was literally creating his story for those characters around that endgame. Him saying he didn't want to be predictable doesn't mean he just wrote it for the lolz.

Also, Robb and Cat were much less important characters in the books than they were in the show (they kept having more scenes added for them because the two actors were so great). Therefore, if they were somewhat minor characters, why would he have chosen them to be killed off if he was trying to be provocative and get a big reaction?

"EW: Why do you think it has such a powerful reaction? Robb wasn’t one of your “viewpoint characters” in the books and Catelyn wasn’t really a beloved personality."

"GEORGE R.R. Martin: [Long pause] That’s an interesting question. I don’t know if I have a good answer. Maybe the way I did it. There’s a certain amount of foreboding leading up to it. It’s a betrayal. It comes out of left field. It’s at a wedding feast. Robb has made his peace and you think the worst is over. Then it comes out of nowhere. There’s also secondary characters killed. Then outside hundreds of Stark people are killed. It’s not just two people."

@dragonborn_ct said:

@jaken7 said:

@dragonborn_ct said:

@lateralus: @jaken7: You know, Jonny has a point... What reason are you going to be invested in the series if all compelling protagonists are getting killed off or the ones that remains by sh**ting them on constantly. In fact, Martin is so adamant on this tack that he pursues it even when it results in phenomenally bad narrative decisions, like killing off a main character for no reason at all and with no payoff or flushing several months of character development down the toilet... And if the characters keep getting the rug pulled out from under them, what reason do I have to remain invested in their plight?" Had any other writer pulled that sh*t, everyone would have uttered the deadly eight words"I don't care what happens to these people." And somehow we are supposed to give him a free pass for that?

Okay we gonna let that turn to sh*t how it happened to A Feast of Crows, a book filled with absolutely nothing but filler and the POV of assholes, with none of the likable and compelling characters from before.

Would you like to list examples or just continue your ambiguous rambling? I'm still invested in Arya, Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Jamie, and Sansa's plight. Nothing has changed that, and nothing will.

What examples would you like to list? How Dany lost sight of her end goal and is more interested in freeing slaves (despite it being detrimental to her quest) and being a bitch? How the other sympathetic characters are in no position to make a difference in this putrid corpse of a continent?

Oh come on. That's part of Dany's character. That's the point of her arc. You're a little late to complain about that for one, and for two, it's not going to change anytime soon, so you best get used to it. Also, calling her a "bitch" is your interpretation of her character that has no doubt been spun out of raw emotions after having watched the episode rather recently (same could be said about everything you're talking about. I bet you're going to get over Oberyn's death, come back to these comments in a couple weeks, and think you were being really silly). Or just stop watching. Either way.

Does one ever truly make a difference in Westeros? I could care less about the setting. I care about the characters. This series is about deep, intimate, character-driven moments. Not world-saving adventures and epic quests. You're having unrealistic expectations. Besides, Bran's arc actually does seem to be the most important of all...

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

Edited by JakeN7
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7 said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

My reading comprehension is just fine but you can go ahead and keep fanboying all you want.

Edited by JakeN7

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

My reading comprehension is just fine but you can go ahead and keep fanboying all you want.

Re-quoting what I previously posted isn't going to help your case. Where exactly does it say that "he only killed the Starks to get a reaction" anywhere in that paragraph? I see it says he likes to be unpredictable and create suspense. And it says people were shocked that he killed the hero, but not that that's why he did it. He literally just keeps saying he didn't want to meet people's predictions or expectations, that he wanted to use a unique and realistic way of storytelling. Trying to be unpredictable =/= wanting to get a reaction.

Oh and "fanboy" accusations? Really? I expected better from you.

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

My reading comprehension is just fine but you can go ahead and keep fanboying all you want.

Re-quoting what I previously posted isn't going to help your case. Where exactly does it say that "he only killed the Starks to get a reaction" anywhere in that paragraph? I see it says he likes to be unpredictable and create suspense. And it says people were shocked that he killed the hero, but not that that's why he did it. He literally just keeps saying he didn't want to meet people's predictions or expectations, that he wanted to use a unique and realistic way of storytelling. Trying to be unpredictable =/= wanting to get a reaction.

It's not realistic at all, I love dark and gritty stuff but this is so far over the top it's like 90s comics.

Edited by Dragonborn_CT

@jaken7 said:

@dragonborn_ct said:

@jaken7 said:

@dragonborn_ct said:

@lateralus: @jaken7: You know, Jonny has a point... What reason are you going to be invested in the series if all compelling protagonists are getting killed off or the ones that remains by sh**ting them on constantly. In fact, Martin is so adamant on this tack that he pursues it even when it results in phenomenally bad narrative decisions, like killing off a main character for no reason at all and with no payoff or flushing several months of character development down the toilet... And if the characters keep getting the rug pulled out from under them, what reason do I have to remain invested in their plight?" Had any other writer pulled that sh*t, everyone would have uttered the deadly eight words"I don't care what happens to these people." And somehow we are supposed to give him a free pass for that?

Okay we gonna let that turn to sh*t how it happened to A Feast of Crows, a book filled with absolutely nothing but filler and the POV of assholes, with none of the likable and compelling characters from before.

Would you like to list examples or just continue your ambiguous rambling? I'm still invested in Arya, Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Jamie, and Sansa's plight. Nothing has changed that, and nothing will.

What examples would you like to list? How Dany lost sight of her end goal and is more interested in freeing slaves (despite it being detrimental to her quest) and being a bitch? How the other sympathetic characters are in no position to make a difference in this putrid corpse of a continent?

Oh come on. That's part of Dany's character. That's the point of her arc. You're a little late to complain about that for one, and for two, it's not going to change anytime soon, so you best get used to it. Also, calling her a "bitch" is your interpretation of her character that has no doubt been spun out of raw emotions after having watched the episode rather recently (same could be said about everything you're talking about. I bet you're going to get over Oberyn's death, come back to these comments in a couple weeks, and think you were being really silly). Or just stop watching. Either way.

Does one ever truly make a difference in Westeros? I could care less about the setting. I care about the characters. This series is about deep, intimate, character-driven moments. Not world-saving adventures and epic quests. You're having unrealistic expectations. Besides, Bran's arc actually does seem to be the most important of all...

Oh sorry, I must had forgotten that the series doesn't have sh*t to do with the Ice demons from the North that are threatening to throw the entire world into eternal winter. I guess they are bloody pointless since we gonna focus on hollow, token manipulative small character relationships or the political court intrigues that are like 98% pointless since this world is going to end either way. Need I remind you, the very first thing you see in the series is a chapter about the White Walkers and their ominous return, five books in and they seemed to be sitting on with their thumbs up their asses.

I never understood this crusader-like obsession to defend the guy's work as if they were absolute perfection. Martin is not above criticism and mind-numbing shocking as it may sound, Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire is not without flaws, other than ones I listed and one of these days I will do a rant blog addressing them. Not that will stop people from calling me out and try to defend it by any means necessary.

And by the way, Bran has no idea why he is on his quest and little realization of what its about to happen (if my predictions are correct about him)

Posted by JakeN7

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

My reading comprehension is just fine but you can go ahead and keep fanboying all you want.

Re-quoting what I previously posted isn't going to help your case. Where exactly does it say that "he only killed the Starks to get a reaction" anywhere in that paragraph? I see it says he likes to be unpredictable and create suspense. And it says people were shocked that he killed the hero, but not that that's why he did it. He literally just keeps saying he didn't want to meet people's predictions or expectations, that he wanted to use a unique and realistic way of storytelling. Trying to be unpredictable =/= wanting to get a reaction.

It's not realistic at all, I love dark and gritty stuff but this is so far over the top it's like 90s comics.

So you concede on the other points then? Because I'm tired of you keeping the debate alive by only picking one thing to respond to out of my comments once you're backed into a corner.

I was just going off of his own descriptions.

"EW: What do you say to readers who are upset about the scene?"
"GEORGE R.R. MARTIN:
It depends on what they say. What can you say to someone who says they’ll never read your book again? People read books for different reasons. I respect that. Some read for comfort. And some of my former readers have said their life is hard, their mother is sick, their dog died, and they read fiction to escape. They don’t want to get hit in the mouth with something horrible. And you read that certain kind of fiction where the guy will always get the girl and the good guys win and it reaffirms to you that life is fair. We all want that at times. There’s a certain vicarious release to that. So I’m not dismissive of people who want that. But that’s not the kind of fiction I write, in most cases. It’s certainly not what Ice and Fire is. It tries to be more realistic about what life is. It has joy, but it also had pain and fear. I think the best fiction captures life in all its light and darkness."

Edited by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

My reading comprehension is just fine but you can go ahead and keep fanboying all you want.

Re-quoting what I previously posted isn't going to help your case. Where exactly does it say that "he only killed the Starks to get a reaction" anywhere in that paragraph? I see it says he likes to be unpredictable and create suspense. And it says people were shocked that he killed the hero, but not that that's why he did it. He literally just keeps saying he didn't want to meet people's predictions or expectations, that he wanted to use a unique and realistic way of storytelling. Trying to be unpredictable =/= wanting to get a reaction.

It's not realistic at all, I love dark and gritty stuff but this is so far over the top it's like 90s comics.

So you concede on the other points then? Because I'm tired of you keeping the debate alive by only picking one thing to respond to out of my comments once you're backed into a corner.

I was just going off of his own descriptions.

"EW: What do you say to readers who are upset about the scene?"
"GEORGE R.R. MARTIN:
It depends on what they say. What can you say to someone who says they’ll never read your book again? People read books for different reasons. I respect that. Some read for comfort. And some of my former readers have said their life is hard, their mother is sick, their dog died, and they read fiction to escape. They don’t want to get hit in the mouth with something horrible. And you read that certain kind of fiction where the guy will always get the girl and the good guys win and it reaffirms to you that life is fair. We all want that at times. There’s a certain vicarious release to that. So I’m not dismissive of people who want that. But that’s not the kind of fiction I write, in most cases. It’s certainly not what Ice and Fire is. It tries to be more realistic about what life is. It has joy, but it also had pain and fear. I think the best fiction captures life in all its light and darkness."

I don't concede to anything but there is no arguing with a fanboy

Edited by JakeN7

@dragonborn_ct said:

@jaken7 said:

@dragonborn_ct said:

@jaken7 said:

@dragonborn_ct said:

@lateralus: @jaken7: You know, Jonny has a point... What reason are you going to be invested in the series if all compelling protagonists are getting killed off or the ones that remains by sh**ting them on constantly. In fact, Martin is so adamant on this tack that he pursues it even when it results in phenomenally bad narrative decisions, like killing off a main character for no reason at all and with no payoff or flushing several months of character development down the toilet... And if the characters keep getting the rug pulled out from under them, what reason do I have to remain invested in their plight?" Had any other writer pulled that sh*t, everyone would have uttered the deadly eight words"I don't care what happens to these people." And somehow we are supposed to give him a free pass for that?

Okay we gonna let that turn to sh*t how it happened to A Feast of Crows, a book filled with absolutely nothing but filler and the POV of assholes, with none of the likable and compelling characters from before.

Would you like to list examples or just continue your ambiguous rambling? I'm still invested in Arya, Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Jamie, and Sansa's plight. Nothing has changed that, and nothing will.

What examples would you like to list? How Dany lost sight of her end goal and is more interested in freeing slaves (despite it being detrimental to her quest) and being a bitch? How the other sympathetic characters are in no position to make a difference in this putrid corpse of a continent?

Oh come on. That's part of Dany's character. That's the point of her arc. You're a little late to complain about that for one, and for two, it's not going to change anytime soon, so you best get used to it. Also, calling her a "bitch" is your interpretation of her character that has no doubt been spun out of raw emotions after having watched the episode rather recently (same could be said about everything you're talking about. I bet you're going to get over Oberyn's death, come back to these comments in a couple weeks, and think you were being really silly). Or just stop watching. Either way.

Does one ever truly make a difference in Westeros? I could care less about the setting. I care about the characters. This series is about deep, intimate, character-driven moments. Not world-saving adventures and epic quests. You're having unrealistic expectations. Besides, Bran's arc actually does seem to be the most important of all...

Oh sorry, I must had forgotten that the series doesn't have sh*t to do with the Ice demons from the North that are threatening to throw the entire world into eternal winter. I guess they are bloody pointless since we gonna focus on hollow, token manipulative small character relationships or the political court intrigues that are like 98% pointless since this world is going to end either way. Need I remind you, the very first thing you see in the series is a chapter about the White Walkers and their ominous return, five books in and they seemed to be sitting on with their thumbs up their asses.

I never understood this crusader-like obsession to defend the guy's work as if they were absolute perfection. Martin is not above criticism and mind-numbing shocking as it may sound, Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire is not without flaws, other than ones I listed and one of these days I will do a rant blog addressing them. Not that will stop people from calling me out and try to defend it by any means necessary.

And by the way, Bran has no idea why he is on his quest and little realization of what its about to happen (if my predictions are correct about him)

That's kind of the point of the entire story. These idiots are bickering and killing amongst each other, and it's only making the White Walker's jobs easier. So...whole show is only "hollow, token manipulative small character relationships?" Really? You don't find any of the dynamics between the character's relationships complex? Not Tyrion/Cersei, Tyrion/Jamie, Cersei/Jamie, Arya/The Hound, Jon/Ygritte, Sansa/Littlefinger, Margary/Tommen, etc.? REALLY?

Never been a crusader. He's written a lot of sh*t within an excellent overall story. I'm not defending him at all actually, only pointing out the flaws in your critique of my favorite show. Sorry if that bothers you.

Ok? Your predictions have little say in this discussion, and I'm not even fully understanding this sentence.

Anyways...

...sorry you had such a falling out with GoT. I'm sure it only being several hours after that impactful ending totally isn't a factor here. You'll remain bitter about it from here on out, right? Too bad, I enjoyed your reviews. Sounds like you might not be watching in the future, and that saddens me.

Edited by JakeN7

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7 said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: That doesn't prove your point at all, he says the only reason he killed the Starks was to get a reaction.

....dafuq? Where does it even imply that? I'm literally seeing the opposite. Is your reading comprehension off? Or are you just seeing what you want to see?

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do"

My reading comprehension is just fine but you can go ahead and keep fanboying all you want.

Re-quoting what I previously posted isn't going to help your case. Where exactly does it say that "he only killed the Starks to get a reaction" anywhere in that paragraph? I see it says he likes to be unpredictable and create suspense. And it says people were shocked that he killed the hero, but not that that's why he did it. He literally just keeps saying he didn't want to meet people's predictions or expectations, that he wanted to use a unique and realistic way of storytelling. Trying to be unpredictable =/= wanting to get a reaction.

It's not realistic at all, I love dark and gritty stuff but this is so far over the top it's like 90s comics.

So you concede on the other points then? Because I'm tired of you keeping the debate alive by only picking one thing to respond to out of my comments once you're backed into a corner.

I was just going off of his own descriptions.

"EW: What do you say to readers who are upset about the scene?"
"GEORGE R.R. MARTIN:
It depends on what they say. What can you say to someone who says they’ll never read your book again? People read books for different reasons. I respect that. Some read for comfort. And some of my former readers have said their life is hard, their mother is sick, their dog died, and they read fiction to escape. They don’t want to get hit in the mouth with something horrible. And you read that certain kind of fiction where the guy will always get the girl and the good guys win and it reaffirms to you that life is fair. We all want that at times. There’s a certain vicarious release to that. So I’m not dismissive of people who want that. But that’s not the kind of fiction I write, in most cases. It’s certainly not what Ice and Fire is. It tries to be more realistic about what life is. It has joy, but it also had pain and fear. I think the best fiction captures life in all its light and darkness."

I don't concede to anything but there is no arguing with a fanboy

Usually when you don't have any more points to bring up, or any way to refute mine, that's when you concede. But no, you're going to continue to fly childish accusations in my direction. Great choice. Classy as always.

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7: Just like your self when you start calling people's reading comprehension in to account

Edited by Pyrogram

Fuck this tv show, just like the books it's full of filler characters introduced just to die and pointless storylines that don't go anywhere. I'm done.

Just enjoy the show dude, what's the point of getting so worked up? It was a badass death.

Posted by Pyrogram

Loved the review btw

Edited by JakeN7

@jonny_anonymous said:

@jaken7: Just like your self when you start calling people's reading comprehension in to account

Wasn't childish at all. I know you're unfortunately dyslexic, and I honestly wasn't seeing what you kept insisting was written there. I was wondering if I had missed something, or if you were just inadvertently misinterpreting things.

But yeah, an honest one-off question is totally comparable to a direct insult used two times over. Please.

Posted by Pyrogram
Posted by Dragonborn_CT

@jaken7 said:

Never been a crusader. He's written a lot of sh*t within an excellent overall story. I'm not defending him at all actually, only pointing out the flaws in your critique of my favorite show. Sorry if that bothers you.

Ok? Your predictions have little say in this discussion, and I'm not even fully understanding this sentence.

Anyways...

...sorry you had such a falling out with GoT. I'm sure it only being several hours after that impactful ending totally isn't a factor here. You'll remain bitter about it from here on out, right? Too bad, I enjoyed your reviews. Sounds like you might not be watching in the future, and that saddens me.

Wait, what >_> I didn't say I had a fallout with the show or that I outright gave up on it just yet, I will still going to watch it and write these reviews, but I need to point out the things that bother me and be harsh when necessary. I may be upset about Oberyn's death, but if I didn't give up when Robb died back then I've only stuck around when I learned that Joffrey would die anyway.

Just brought up how I feel about Bran's quest when you did.

Posted by Pyrogram
Posted by Dragonborn_CT
Posted by JakeN7

@pyrogram said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

Fuck this tv show, just like the books it's full of filler characters introduced just to die and pointless storylines that don't go anywhere. I'm done.

Just enjoy the show dude, what's the point of getting so worked up? It was a badass death.

Just let 'em be super butthurt. The episode was only several hours ago, I'm imagining this is just raw reactionary emotion. I haven't been able to get through to them, so I think it's time I let 'em be for a bit and just hope they cool off.

Posted by Pyrogram
Posted by JakeN7

@jaken7 said:

Never been a crusader. He's written a lot of sh*t within an excellent overall story. I'm not defending him at all actually, only pointing out the flaws in your critique of my favorite show. Sorry if that bothers you.

Ok? Your predictions have little say in this discussion, and I'm not even fully understanding this sentence.

Anyways...

...sorry you had such a falling out with GoT. I'm sure it only being several hours after that impactful ending totally isn't a factor here. You'll remain bitter about it from here on out, right? Too bad, I enjoyed your reviews. Sounds like you might not be watching in the future, and that saddens me.

Wait, what >_> I didn't say I had a fallout with the show or that I outright gave up on it just yet, I will still going to watch it and write these reviews, but I need to point out the things that bother me and be harsh when necessary. I may be upset about Oberyn's death, but if I didn't give up when Robb died back then I've only stuck around when I learned that Joffrey would die anyway.

Just brought up how I feel about Bran's quest when you did.

That last paragraph was absurdest sarcasm to show you how ridiculous I thought you were being. xD

Fair enough.

Posted by Pyrogram

@jaken7: I was in awe at the end of the episode, one of the best yet!

Posted by Ostyo

@jaken7: Aww, you and your little snuggie.

Edited by JakeN7
Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

@jaken7 said:

@pyrogram said:
@jonny_anonymous said:

Fuck this tv show, just like the books it's full of filler characters introduced just to die and pointless storylines that don't go anywhere. I'm done.

Just enjoy the show dude, what's the point of getting so worked up? It was a badass death.

Just let 'em be super butthurt. The episode was only several hours ago, I'm imagining this is just raw reactionary emotion. I haven't been able to get through to them, so I think it's time I let 'em be for a bit and just hope they cool off.

Just so you know, the more you dismiss peoples opinions the less I care about yours.

Edited by JakeN7

@pyrogram said:

@jaken7: I was in awe at the end of the episode, one of the best yet!

I'd say so! Although I did think the headsplosion was a little cheesy. At least they made up for it with really well done practical effects.

@ostyo said:

@jaken7: Aww, you and your little snuggie.

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