Delphic's forum posts

#1 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

@Delphic said:

@JohnnyGat said:

@Delphic: I disagree the moment Logan saw Hope the first and only thing he went in for was the kill. And with that in my mind couldn't Cyke and Cap just team together where Hope is locked up somewhere that Cyke and the gang can train her whilst the Avengers try to stop the Phoenix Force.

Cyclops doesn't want Cap's help. "It's a mutant problem." is what cyclops said. Cyclops doesn't want hop locked up. He doesn't want to stop the Phoenix. He want's to control it. Cyclops would never team up with Captain America because Cap's plan directly interfere with his own.

Maybe you're right about Logan though, but it seems out of character for him to kill a kid. Especially after opening the Jean Grey Institute for Higher Learning. He's probably scared to death that the Phoenix will return and kill everyone he knows again. No one has thought about what Hope wants though. She obviously doesn't want to go with Cyclops, and he's forcing her into this against her will and keeping her captive on Utopia technically. The Avengers want to lock her away because they think she is a threat, and Logan has threatened as you say to kill her. If I was her I would run for my life too and get the hell away from everyone. If I'm really with anybody on this, I'm with Hope, and I hope eventually someone can come to her understanding her predicament instead of using her for their own selfish desires. Unfortunately that someone will probably be the Phoenix itself.

He does say Hope is a mutant problem but only because Cap showed up unattended to Utopia making demands which showed Cyke that Cap does not trust them. If Cap would have called ahead of time called Scott then explained to him calmly that the Phoenix Force is destroying worlds and Earth is at risk I'm sure Cap can get that point across in a way that Cyke would agree because if they did that at that time they'd still trust each other to an extent. Scott got all mad because Cap showed up with his Avengers to take Hope. I mean as I've said Scott wants to train Hope to control the PF Cap wants to lock her away why not have the Avengers put her somewhere they can monitor her (locking her away) with the Xmen who will train her to control the PF (train Hope) in case the Secret Avengers fail in their attempts to defend, both parties then could have their requirements met.

Yes it's out of character for Logan to kill a kid but it just seems him going for Hope isn't really about the PF but I think he has an agenda deep down. He wants to prove to Scott that there is no Messiah iirc he doesn't believe in the whole Messiah business. I mean why didn't he do the same thing to Quire or Rachel both in one way or another connected to the PF itself, why didn't he tell the Avengers to lock those two out and just lock Hope up.

I sort of just realized that were technically having the same conversation on two different threads, so I think I'll localize my replies to this main topic of this tread which is "What do the Avengers plan to do?" and like I said earlier they only want to lock her up and keep people safe from the possible threat of the Phoenix. They wanted to cooperate with the X-men, but things just didn't work out it seems.

#2 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

@Delphic said:

@JohnnyGat said:

First of all let me point out that I have my views on the event but am willing to acknowledge if I'm wrong with my views and would greatly appreciate it if we can have a discussion in a non-confrontational way as most "discussions" on the internet end up in, unfortunately.

Okay so regarding the plot when I think about it I find myself agreeing with both points of views from Cap and Cyclops and completely dislike Logan's views.

I think Cap means well, but he's letting idealism get in the way. It's causing him to loose sight of the big picture, and keeping him from having to make the hard decisions. Cyclops is outright insane. He's turned the mutants into a military force and a good many of them are just kids. During the prologue, his consistent pushing on Hope really put me off the wrong way. He has this illogical belief that if the Phoenix can be controlled, mutant kind will be saved and enter into the next cycle of evolution. In the past all the Phoenix has done is destroy and take life. It can't be controlled, and you think Cyclops would realize that after what happened to Jean.

Logan on the other hand realizes what happened when he was last involved with the Phoenix. He remembers what it did to Jean and others he cared about. I honestly believe he does not want to kill Hope, but he will if he has too. He's not afraid to make the tough decision. Logan was the Avengers best chance at finding Hope, and possibly her best chance of being saved from the Phoenix, but because Cap was afraid of what Logan might do, he dropped him in the middle of Siberia.

Rachel was able to control it wasn't she. As far as I can see Cyclops acknowledges that, hence his main reason is to train Hope to control it. Logan I don't believe is doing this for the best of mutant kind he's doing this to prove to Scott that he's wrong and there is no such thing as a Messiah. I mean when the Avengers went to utopia and Logan saw Hope he directly went in for the kill. Now either he's in the belief that killing Hope would magically get rid of the PF than I admit I was wrong in believing he had an agenda but then again in his school alone there are two people who've already been affected by the Phoenix Force, one Rachel was able handle it and Quentin Quire has been shown in alternate timelines to have been a host to the Phoenix Force, why hasn't Logan put them on his watch if need to kill.

The end result is just that this entire fight is just a case of hurt pride from both A and X although I am more sympathetic of the hurt pride on the X side since they've been oppressed constantly I just can't see why they aren't working together. I think Cap made the wrong call going to Utopia unannounced and demand turning Hope over instead of talking to Cyclops and looking for a mutual way to handle things. That little mistake of not trusting Cyke was basically a clear indicator to Cyke that if A does not trust them then he couldn't trust them with Hope. I mean Scott's defense to the Phoenix only being destructive is that it never truly destroys the Earth on the many instances it has appeared.

All of this is theory on Scott's part and on the Avengers part and on Logan's part. Yet the one that has made the most sense is the one not being exploited and that Hope is to be trained by both Avengers and Xmen in a place where the Avengers can monitor the situation.

To an extent. Rachel was a host and able to tap into it's power, but she wasn't able to control the entity itself. I honestly don't think anyone can completely control the Phoenix Force, but only work together with it. The potential that Hope could transform into another Dark Phoenix is very great though. I think everyone wants to avoid that, but they don't agree on how to go about it: Scott trains, Cap locks away, and Logan kills. In saying that it would seem like Scott has the best mentality, but, like you said, Scott sees the Phoenix Force as a messiah to save all mutant kind. The Phoenix has proven itself time and again to be a destructive force. What does Scott believe that the Phoenix will do? Just how will the thing that took away the love of his life "save" mutant kind? What will it save them from?

Now as far as Logan goes you make a very good point, about him trying to prove Scott wrong. The two of them have never seen eye to eye, and I do believe part of this is Logan trying to stick it to Scott. As far as his reason for not locking up Rachel or Quentin Quire it is possible because they have not shown any current signs of influence by Phoenix. I'm not sure how he was aware that Hope was showing signs though. Another reason he has not locked them up or put them on his kill list is because he has no intention of doing so unless he has too. As seen in the most recent issue of A vs X Logan is getting a bit pushy himself, especially as I saw of how he demanded of Rachel to try harder to find Hope. I'm not saying by any means that Logan is without flaws, but I think he does realize the potential danger of the Phoenix better than anyone.

#3 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

@Delphic: I disagree the moment Logan saw Hope the first and only thing he went in for was the kill. And with that in my mind couldn't Cyke and Cap just team together where Hope is locked up somewhere that Cyke and the gang can train her whilst the Avengers try to stop the Phoenix Force.

Cyclops doesn't want Cap's help. "It's a mutant problem." is what cyclops said. Cyclops doesn't want hop locked up. He doesn't want to stop the Phoenix. He want's to control it. Cyclops would never team up with Captain America because Cap's plan directly interfere with his own.

Maybe you're right about Logan though, but it seems out of character for him to kill a kid. Especially after opening the Jean Grey Institute for Higher Learning. He's probably scared to death that the Phoenix will return and kill everyone he knows again. No one has thought about what Hope wants though. She obviously doesn't want to go with Cyclops, and he's forcing her into this against her will and keeping her captive on Utopia technically. The Avengers want to lock her away because they think she is a threat, and Logan has threatened as you say to kill her. If I was her I would run for my life too and get the hell away from everyone. If I'm really with anybody on this, I'm with Hope, and I hope eventually someone can come to her understanding her predicament instead of using her for their own selfish desires. Unfortunately that someone will probably be the Phoenix itself.

#4 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

First of all let me point out that I have my views on the event but am willing to acknowledge if I'm wrong with my views and would greatly appreciate it if we can have a discussion in a non-confrontational way as most "discussions" on the internet end up in, unfortunately.

Okay so regarding the plot when I think about it I find myself agreeing with both points of views from Cap and Cyclops and completely dislike Logan's views.

I think Cap means well, but he's letting idealism get in the way. It's causing him to loose sight of the big picture, and keeping him from having to make the hard decisions. Cyclops is outright insane. He's turned the mutants into a military force and a good many of them are just kids. During the prologue, his consistent pushing on Hope really put me off the wrong way. He has this illogical belief that if the Phoenix can be controlled, mutant kind will be saved and enter into the next cycle of evolution. In the past all the Phoenix has done is destroy and take life. It can't be controlled, and you think Cyclops would realize that after what happened to Jean.

Logan on the other hand realizes what happened when he was last involved with the Phoenix. He remembers what it did to Jean and others he cared about. I honestly believe he does not want to kill Hope, but he will if he has too. He's not afraid to make the tough decision. Logan was the Avengers best chance at finding Hope, and possibly her best chance of being saved from the Phoenix, but because Cap was afraid of what Logan might do, he dropped him in the middle of Siberia.

#5 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@JohnnyGat said:

I'm trying to recall if they mentioned it, I mean I know Cyclops wants to train Hope to control the Phoenix and I also know that Logan wants to kill Hope in the belief that it will stop the PF. But I was never made clear what the Avengers plan to do with it.

The Avengers want to lock Hope up, so they can find a way to stop the Phoenix. Also I don't think Logan really wants to kill Hope, but he will if he has too. Right now Logan seems to be the most logical person in the entirety of the Marvel universe. There's a phrase for that I think called: "Hell froze over."

#6 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

I loved Agent Coulson, and was really saddened that he died, but if they brought Coulson back to life that would kinda be F'd up. I mean his death was done with integrity and meaning, and in movies, especially action movies, especially especially COMIC action movies a "good" death is extremely rare, and to just "LMD" him back would kinda be a little insulting,to us and to the character.

@TheWitchingHour: I think that the Avengers cared a great deal about him, when it happened Thor yelled "No." and looked genuinely in pain over his death, Cap looked grief stricken, especially when Fury tossed him the bloody Cap Cards, and Iron Man basically said it to Loki himself, "You managed to piss us all off." blasts Loki and says (about his own grief) "his name was Phil". But that's just my opinion on it though.

I don't think I've really ever scene Tony that pissed off. The way he acted and spoke to Loki, not to mention the looks he gave Loki were actually kind of scary.

#7 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther - 11

Dr. Strange - 11 (+1)

Falcon - 10

Hank Pym - 10

Hercules - 11

Jack of Hearts - 10

Julia Carpenter - 10

Luke Cage - 10

Mantis - 10

Mockingbird - 11

Moondragon - 10

Ms. Marvel - 10

Namor - 9 (-1)

Nova - 10

She-Hulk - 10

Spider-woman - 11

Stingray - 10

Tigra - 10

US Agent - 9

Vision - 11

War Machine - 6

Wasp - 10

#8 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

Can't get this image inside a spoiler block... so, WARNING: SPOILER ALERT. Maybe? I don't know, better safe than sorry.

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Either that's stone cold confirmation, or they're intentionally misleading us.

Well I guess it's confirmed.

#9 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceIMC: There I fixed it.

#10 Posted by Delphic (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm working on it right now, and you bring up a good point. It's not confirmed that she is dead, but it is assumed. Until we know for sure I'll take it off.