Cyclops vs Wolvrine who has the right idea?

Well... in my opinion there both right to a specific existent. But cyclops has more of my vote... hears why

Hes VERY hard on his mutants treats them like solders instead of family & hes cold and calculating. but if you lost as many friends , family & most of your species as he has lost you would probably be the same way.

In one of the newer x books wolvie mentions... (spoilers)

He believes scott has them brainwashed to think there solders in the the fight for mutant survival.

''all he talks about is how were targets & how we gotta be ready for war''

well logan... hes kinda right

between the sententials , hellfire club

Friends of humanity , leper queen , bastion , the purifiers , Graydon creed the list goes on & ON & ON (not to mention most regular people dont like them and have tried to kill them)

mutant kind has been attacks numerous times. all through out the x men's story with in the x force arc mutants were being once again demonized by the public , killed , captured drugged & being turned into bombs , then there was operation zero tolerance , the slaughter fest that happened during the incident in genosha & most recently the giant sentential with the magnetized core that attacked during scizim

time to time they attempt to be just like regular hero's like the time during fear itself when they had to stop juggernaut from causing a rampage they risked there lives to stop him & they did... but guess what happened? the government saw that most of them were no longer on utopia to defend it. so they decided to try and nuke the island... until cyclops intervened.

They ALWAYS get attacked & its not the last time ether. & to add to all this there are currently only 200 of them left. they are currently an endangered species they do have to be ready for war at all times. its the only logical way to be if your a mutant... of course cyclops isnt COMPLETELY right

yes there in a fight for there race. that true.. however they arent just your solders the x men are your family.

wolverine is right to an extent the kids should have a school they should be able to have so type of release from being a solder all the time. & they shouldnt so easily be sacrificed (as cyclops does to so many of his ''solders'')

But what do you think? which ones ideal sounds best?

I believe both are right. & should embrace both of there ideas solders & students that way there not to soft but not to hard at the same time. & they need to stick together. because there is always something that is headed there way. like a sentential or a villain or perhaps another superhero group led by a guy wearing the American flag... just sayin

50 Comments
50 Comments
Edited by Rabbitearsblog

I agree with both of them, although I strongly don't believe that children should be involved in war.  Unfortunately, since the mutants are on the verge of extinction, they would have to do everything possible to survive this, so breaking up the teams was not the smartest thing to do because even if Wolverine has the school to protect the students, what would happen if the world finds out about the school and they come to the school and attack it?  There's only a small group of adult teachers at the school, so they wouldn't be enough to take on the huge threat and even if they tried to get help from the X-Force and X-Factor, they would still need the help of Cyclops' Extinction team since all the heavy hitters are on that team.
 
The same is said for Cyclops' team.  Even though they would try to protect Utopia, there's only a small number of them, so they might not be able to protect Utopia with such a small group of mutants.  The best solution is for both Cyclops' and Wolverine's teams to team up together and fight whatever threat takes them on, because now that there are only a few mutants left in the world, it's more important than ever to come together and fight this huge threat together.

Posted by DATNIGGA

@Rabbitearsblog: I agree & yea children shouldn't be involved with but since there usually the main targets they have to be prepared anyway the average purifier never thinks HEY GUYS LETS CAPTURE MAGNETO & APOCALYPSE! lol they tend to go for the in experienced young ones that aren't very skilled yet. also cyclops & the original x men were pretty young fighting some tough guys

Edited by CATPANEXE

I would judge ones character to see how their thought process works and if it's more logical and progressive in serious matters, much in the way a court establishes a character profile and the attorneys send out investigators to do the same, as well to define motive, or how the media and people evaluate a candidates reactions to more standard terms to get a grasp of how they're decision making process works and therefore if they'll make good decisions while in office. That said:

One is rejected by a lover and moves on with his life, the other, well, never had any real relationship with the object of his affection though keeps some of her hair in his underpants drawer and names schools after her and what not. Also the latter is known to end up in severely drunken stupors-often, as well for running around in the woods half to fully naked like a wild animal, and eating other wildly animals while he's at it. Lastly the latter is well known for frequently engaging in blood feuds and territorial pissing contests between anyone and everything that doesn't see eye to eye with him, much of the time taking that as far as to killing them if he can't seek a resolution pleasing to him. The former is well known for following orders well, and behaving in the interest of others before himself, no matter the emotional cost to himself, in the interest of others and the whole itself.

Bringing to me answer: Whose judgement would I consider the safer bet of the two, based on their previous actions in situations that I can relate to given I can't honestly let myself believe I would be able to completely determine what would be the correct, or more logical choice in this large matter?

I'll back Cyclops. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Posted by DATNIGGA

@CATPANEXE: that is a very good & well thought out response lol

Posted by Steps

Cyclops, what david said to Julian in Schism is the one I mostly agree on. If they're going to have a target on their backs might as well go out fighting then pretend like everything is okay and try to live a normal childhood.

Posted by The Stegman

Cyclops, he may be cold blooded, he may be kind of douchey, but let's be realistic,  They are living in a world that still hates them, the species is almost extinct, and is being hunted down by various organizations, yes, children shouldn't be in wars, but the fact is, just being a mutant forces them to be in it whether they like it or not, Wolverine maybe be a better father figure in this instance, but in the real world, they need to be trained to survive, not coddled and Scott has the right idea there.

Posted by War Killer

After seeing both arguments, in my opinion, I believe both of them are right and wrong in different areas. Cyclops and Wolverine both have their heart in the right place, which to to protect the Mutant race. But there are some areas in their arguments that they've allowed their egos to get the better of them are wrong. Wolverine is right, Mutant or not, kids deserve to grow up like kids and not be forced to be soldiers. The whole point of the X-Men was to create peace between humanity and Mutants, to protect both sides from threats that were Mutant and non-mutant. That was why Xavier created them.
 
Cyclops and Wolverine have the right ideas, but have gone about them wrong. Cyclops is right that they should prepared to fight in a world that hates and fears them, but they shouldn't be FORCED to be soldiers. What happened to living a normal life, what if a Mutant doesn't want to be a soldier but simply learn how to control their powers and I don't know, find a job, get married, have a family, make a life for themselves like the rest of us. What if they don't want to be soldiers? Should they be forced to be warriors when all they could possible want is to live in peace (or as much peace as they can)?
 
Wolverine on the other hand is giving those kids that chance at a "normal" life, but his whole "Kids don't fight" rule is stupid because sure there are Mutants who might want to live a normal life, but there will still be others who actually want to fight for their race and they should be given that chance to be trained to do so if they please.
 
It would have made much more sense to simply go back to taking in Mutants and teaching them how to control their powers, and when they're finally of age (16, maybe 18 or something) give them the choice to either continue working on their education and some day go out and live the life they want or be trained to become the next generation of X-Men. There will always be a need for the X-Men, there's no denying that, but the children should be given the chance to make that decision for themselves, not be told to either be one thing or the other. That's how I see it, but others may disagree, either how in my opinion I think that would have been the more logical solution to the issue.

Posted by Rabbitearsblog

I guess the only problem I have with Wolverine's ideology is that when he said that children should not have to fight and should live a normal life, he's basically saying that children should not fight at all.  But what happens if the school is attacked and all the adults are killed or injured? The children would be the only ones who could protect the school and themselves from the threats, so they would need to defend themselves in some kind of way.  Yes, children should not fight at all, but they do have the right to defend themselves and Wolverine could try to teach the students some basic self-defense lessons that could help the students protect themselves.

Posted by Onihana

They both have the right Idea. They need Soldiers to protect the mutants are left. They also need the kids to have some kind of normal life other wise they might lose are reason to fight other then survival. If you grow up in nothing but war you might have more of them growing up like Cable. This I feel is bad for the mutant race as a whole. So you need to find a middle ground and let them decide what they want to do with their life. Train them to defend them selves but also allow them to be able to grow in the direction they deem fit. My Issue with it all is that Logan moved them to far away from those who can provide them with a solid offense. Yeah they have grown up there at the school, what happens when for EX. a bunch of sententials come and you lack the numbers to defend the school, Scott can't just jump on a plane and be there in time to provide assistance to them. So now what Logan is back in the same situation as they were at on Utopia. So if Logan was really thinking about it he should have moved the school some where in Cali so that Scott could provide help as needed. Also now you have moved childhood friends from each other separating them but 1500 miles or so. To me this is also bad on a social aspect but can be over came just makes it a pain for them.

I also feel that Scott should lead the military aspect of the mutants but they need to have someone like Kitty run the social aspects. Each over seeing their side and meeting each other in the middle on the gray areas that will always be there.

Posted by Rabbitearsblog
@War Killer said:
After seeing both arguments, in my opinion, I believe both of them are right and wrong in different areas. Cyclops and Wolverine both have their heart in the right place, which to to protect the Mutant race. But there are some areas in their arguments that they've allowed their egos to get the better of them are wrong. Wolverine is right, Mutant or not, kids deserve to grow up like kids and not be forced to be soldiers. The whole point of the X-Men was to create peace between humanity and Mutants, to protect both sides from threats that were Mutant and non-mutant. That was why Xavier created them.  Cyclops and Wolverine have the right ideas, but have gone about them wrong. Cyclops is right that they should prepared to fight in a world that hates and fears them, but they shouldn't be FORCED to be soldiers. What happened to living a normal life, what if a Mutant doesn't want to be a soldier but simply learn how to control their powers and I don't know, find a job, get married, have a family, make a life for themselves like the rest of us. What if they don't want to be soldiers? Should they be forced to be warriors when all they could possible want is to live in peace (or as much peace as they can)?   Wolverine on the other hand is giving those kids that chance at a "normal" life, but his whole "Kids don't fight" rule is stupid because sure there are Mutants who might want to live a normal life, but there will still be others who actually want to fight for their race and they should be given that chance to be trained to do so if they please.  It would have made much more sense to simply go back to taking in Mutants and teaching them how to control their powers, and when they're finally of age (16, maybe 18 or something) give them the choice to either continue working on their education and some day go out and live the life they want or be trained to become the next generation of X-Men. There will always be a need for the X-Men, there's no denying that, but the children should be given the chance to make that decision for themselves, not be told to either be one thing or the other. That's how I see it, but others may disagree, either how in my opinion I think that would have been the more logical solution to the issue.
I agree that it felt like Wolverine and Cyclops were forcing the kids to make a decision instead of letting them decide for themselves about what they want to do in this situation.  If the children want to fight, then Wolverine can't stop them from doing that and the same goes for Cyclops that if the children want to live normal lives, he can't stop them from doing so. 
Posted by BlackArmor

@Steps said:

Cyclops, what david said to Julian in Schism is the one I mostly agree on. If they're going to have a target on their backs might as well go out fighting then pretend like everything is okay and try to live a normal childhood.

This

Posted by War Killer
@Rabbitearsblog said:
@War Killer said:
After seeing both arguments, in my opinion, I believe both of them are right and wrong in different areas. Cyclops and Wolverine both have their heart in the right place, which to to protect the Mutant race. But there are some areas in their arguments that they've allowed their egos to get the better of them are wrong. Wolverine is right, Mutant or not, kids deserve to grow up like kids and not be forced to be soldiers. The whole point of the X-Men was to create peace between humanity and Mutants, to protect both sides from threats that were Mutant and non-mutant. That was why Xavier created them.  Cyclops and Wolverine have the right ideas, but have gone about them wrong. Cyclops is right that they should prepared to fight in a world that hates and fears them, but they shouldn't be FORCED to be soldiers. What happened to living a normal life, what if a Mutant doesn't want to be a soldier but simply learn how to control their powers and I don't know, find a job, get married, have a family, make a life for themselves like the rest of us. What if they don't want to be soldiers? Should they be forced to be warriors when all they could possible want is to live in peace (or as much peace as they can)?   Wolverine on the other hand is giving those kids that chance at a "normal" life, but his whole "Kids don't fight" rule is stupid because sure there are Mutants who might want to live a normal life, but there will still be others who actually want to fight for their race and they should be given that chance to be trained to do so if they please.  It would have made much more sense to simply go back to taking in Mutants and teaching them how to control their powers, and when they're finally of age (16, maybe 18 or something) give them the choice to either continue working on their education and some day go out and live the life they want or be trained to become the next generation of X-Men. There will always be a need for the X-Men, there's no denying that, but the children should be given the chance to make that decision for themselves, not be told to either be one thing or the other. That's how I see it, but others may disagree, either how in my opinion I think that would have been the more logical solution to the issue.
I agree that it felt like Wolverine and Cyclops were forcing the kids to make a decision instead of letting them decide for themselves about what they want to do in this situation.  If the children want to fight, then Wolverine can't stop them from doing that and the same goes for Cyclops that if the children want to live normal lives, he can't stop them from doing so. 
Exactly, they should go back to how Xavier did it by taking in young Mutants and teach them how to control their abilities. Then, when they are at a certain age, they should be allowed to choose what kid of life they want to live. Do they want to finish school and move on to a normal life or continue on and train to one day become an X-Men. But forcing them to be one or the other doesn't seem fair to the children.
Posted by fireball11

I think too that both sides has positive and negative points and that is a good thing, because this make their division more realistic and well handled. And my opinion is that wolverine and cyclops they must not work together again for the next 5 years at least. And i explain myself:

- When they worked together half of the book's panels go wasted for their pissing contest and the other characters get completely ignored and the plot become lazy. They have to accept that they don't like each other and move forward each to his own path. I don't mind an occasional team-up though

- The best period for the x-men was when cyke was working with the x-factor and wolverine with the x-men giving, the chance for both of them to grow as characters

- There are now too many x-characters, that the last years were completely marginated. Even Storm one of the big three of the x-men was ignored. For this reason i think that the schism and regenesis is a great opportunity for many x-characters to take enough panel time and to shine and unleashe their potential as characters and powerset (like bobby or storm as second in command of the blue side and leader in Gischler's book)

- And at last i think that is a great opportunity for both characters to see what they can do in different posts from those that we have used to see them. Scott as a leader without having someone to pissing him off and agruing with him all the time and Logan from the rebel of the team to a leader of rebels that questioning his leadership all the time and giving him hard time (like Fantomex , Deadpool and Nightcrawler already do in X-force, Bobby and Hank in WATXM, Rogue in Legacy and Gambit as well as i ecpect to do in Astonishing). So the possibilities for interesting new relationship dynamics and character grow are limitless

Posted by Rabbitearsblog
@War Killer said:
@Rabbitearsblog said:
@War Killer said:
After seeing both arguments, in my opinion, I believe both of them are right and wrong in different areas. Cyclops and Wolverine both have their heart in the right place, which to to protect the Mutant race. But there are some areas in their arguments that they've allowed their egos to get the better of them are wrong. Wolverine is right, Mutant or not, kids deserve to grow up like kids and not be forced to be soldiers. The whole point of the X-Men was to create peace between humanity and Mutants, to protect both sides from threats that were Mutant and non-mutant. That was why Xavier created them.  Cyclops and Wolverine have the right ideas, but have gone about them wrong. Cyclops is right that they should prepared to fight in a world that hates and fears them, but they shouldn't be FORCED to be soldiers. What happened to living a normal life, what if a Mutant doesn't want to be a soldier but simply learn how to control their powers and I don't know, find a job, get married, have a family, make a life for themselves like the rest of us. What if they don't want to be soldiers? Should they be forced to be warriors when all they could possible want is to live in peace (or as much peace as they can)?   Wolverine on the other hand is giving those kids that chance at a "normal" life, but his whole "Kids don't fight" rule is stupid because sure there are Mutants who might want to live a normal life, but there will still be others who actually want to fight for their race and they should be given that chance to be trained to do so if they please.  It would have made much more sense to simply go back to taking in Mutants and teaching them how to control their powers, and when they're finally of age (16, maybe 18 or something) give them the choice to either continue working on their education and some day go out and live the life they want or be trained to become the next generation of X-Men. There will always be a need for the X-Men, there's no denying that, but the children should be given the chance to make that decision for themselves, not be told to either be one thing or the other. That's how I see it, but others may disagree, either how in my opinion I think that would have been the more logical solution to the issue.
I agree that it felt like Wolverine and Cyclops were forcing the kids to make a decision instead of letting them decide for themselves about what they want to do in this situation.  If the children want to fight, then Wolverine can't stop them from doing that and the same goes for Cyclops that if the children want to live normal lives, he can't stop them from doing so. 
Exactly, they should go back to how Xavier did it by taking in young Mutants and teach them how to control their abilities. Then, when they are at a certain age, they should be allowed to choose what kid of life they want to live. Do they want to finish school and move on to a normal life or continue on and train to one day become an X-Men. But forcing them to be one or the other doesn't seem fair to the children.
Exactly. I don't think it was fair of Wolverine and Cyclops to sort of forced the kids to choose sides instead of just giving them time to decide on what they want.
Edited by Rabbitearsblog
@fireball11 said:

I think too that both sides has positive and negative points and that is a good thing, because this make their division more realistic and well handled. And my opinion is that wolverine and cyclops they must not work together again for the next 5 years at least. And i explain myself:

- When they worked together half of the book's panels go wasted for their pissing contest and the other characters get completely ignored and the plot become lazy. They have to accept that they don't like each other and move forward each to his own path. I don't mind an occasional team-up though

- The best period for the x-men was when cyke was working with the x-factor and wolverine with the x-men giving, the chance for both of them to grow as characters

- There are now too many x-characters, that the last years were completely marginated. Even Storm one of the big three of the x-men was ignored. For this reason i think that the schism and regenesis is a great opportunity for many x-characters to take enough panel time and to shine and unleashe their potential as characters and powerset (like bobby or storm as second in command of the blue side and leader in Gischler's book)

- And at last i think that is a great opportunity for both characters to see what they can do in different posts from those that we have used to see them. Scott as a leader without having someone to pissing him off and agruing with him all the time and Logan from the rebel of the team to a leader of rebels that questioning his leadership all the time and giving him hard time (like Fantomex , Deadpool and Nightcrawler already do in X-force, Bobby and Hank in WATXM, Rogue in Legacy and Gambit as well as i ecpect to do in Astonishing). So the possibilities for interesting new relationship dynamics and character grow are limitless

I agree that separating the team does offer more stories about all the characters, which is what the X-Men comics were lacking years ago, but I'm a little concerned about what would become of the old relationships we grew up on. Like, will Cyclops and Beast ever become best friends again or would Colossus and Wolverine ever become best friends again also?  And will Kitty Pryde and Colossus get back together again? Although, I would definitely like to see a new friendship between Colossus and Iceman, if the writers ever let that happen that is, but I'm definitely for the new friendships in the newer X-Men books.
Posted by fireball11

I don't think they forced anyone to take a position. They already followed Cyke. Logan just offered an alternative choise without any of both sides looking bad or wrong. From what i saw schism is just about different opinions and options not about right and wrong or good and bad. For this reason both sides they seperated in relative friendly terms. It doesn't mean that each side has to fight or compete against the other. Cyke is still the leader of mutantkind and Wolvie is the headmaster of a school for young mutants. Actually each has a completely different mission. Cyke and his team are the super hero team with the task to protect the world, Wolvie and his crew the school team. I don't see a reason for members of both teams to not speak to each other. Just i don't want to see cyclops and wolverine at the same team and the same story repeating again and again.And is intriguing to see how both of them them and specially for Logan how are they going to handle this new situation. As for the scene at the beginning of the artcle i think is just a bad writting from gage's part since he explain in an interview yesterday that Logan actually thaught that is was their responsability to stop Exodus and clean their mess because it was in part their fault that he was direct against cyclops

Posted by Murphy652

i like Wolverine

Posted by BADJEREMIE

I didnt read the VS x-book story and I will propably not read it but I hate cyclops.The only X-book that I read right now is X-force.

Edited by God_Spawn

@The Stegman said:

Cyclops, he may be cold blooded, he may be kind of douchey, but let's be realistic, They are living in a world that still hates them, the species is almost extinct, and is being hunted down by various organizations, yes, children shouldn't be in wars, but the fact is, just being a mutant forces them to be in it whether they like it or not, Wolverine maybe be a better father figure in this instance, but in the real world, they need to be trained to survive, not coddled and Scott has the right idea there.

I'd agree with this. Though I do think the kids deserve a bit more than what Cyclops' was giving them. It seemed everyone realized that except Scott and it almost cost him Emma because of it and some of his friends.

Moderator
Posted by ReVamp

Short Answer: Wolverine

I don't agree completely with any of them, but Wolvie's is the one with which I agree the most.

Posted by Billy Batson

Ah, it's this thread again.
BB

Posted by x_29

Wolverine...nuff said.

Edited by FadeToBlackBolt

Cyclops. Wolverine's side shows a complete lack of understanding. Cyclops reads the Prince. Logan reads TV Guide, and that comes across in the choices they've made.  
 
Cyclops all day, every day. Wolverine's side is the choice for simpletons who will be dead inside of a year (if Marvel editorial got serious)

Posted by lykopis

They are both wrong - but I do lean more towards Wolverine.

Cylcops' is appearing to lose sight of what it means to be an X-Man. Granted, he's fighting for the existence of his race, but absolute control of them to the point of taking away their childhood and choice? It's the worst of two bad choices, in my opinion. I don't like what they are doing to him - making him out to be someone who would think it possible to rein in the Phoenix's Force (out of everyone - he should know better).

Mutants who believe peace is possible seem to be on Wolverine's side - and mutants who don't seem to think peace is possible is on Cyclop's. So to me - it's not so much a right or wrong, but rather your belief (or hope).

Oh well. I am in for the ride, but all the X-Universe is getting stranger and stranger.

Posted by LeaderVladimir

This is a case of Good versus Good. Instead of just being a typical hero vs hero fight, Wolverine and Cyclops have valid points in their ideas. No one has the moral high ground.

Posted by DATNIGGA

@lykopis: I Think it all comes down too choice cyclops forces students to be soldiers just like wolverine forces them to be students. but in my opinion wolvie's logic is flawed the most cause if you notice in like every wolverine & the x men comic there getting attacked by some type of enemy recently they were attacked by exodus if exodus didnt change his course of actions thy would have all been defeated were does that leave the helpless students? if they had some solder training they would be better at defending themselves

Posted by x_29

@DATNIGGA: @DATNIGGA said:

@lykopis: I Think it all comes down too choice cyclops forces students to be soldiers just like wolverine forces them to be students. but in my opinion wolvie's logic is flawed the most cause if you notice in like every wolverine & the x men comic there getting attacked by some type of enemy recently they were attacked by exodus if exodus didnt change his course of actions thy would have all been defeated were does that leave the helpless students? if they had some solder training they would be better at defending themselves

Technically most of the kids do have experience in combat, so i would not consider them as helpless.

Posted by lykopis

@x_29 said:

@DATNIGGA: @DATNIGGA said:

@lykopis: I Think it all comes down too choice cyclops forces students to be soldiers just like wolverine forces them to be students. but in my opinion wolvie's logic is flawed the most cause if you notice in like every wolverine & the x men comic there getting attacked by some type of enemy recently they were attacked by exodus if exodus didnt change his course of actions thy would have all been defeated were does that leave the helpless students? if they had some solder training they would be better at defending themselves

Technically most of the kids do have experience in combat, so i would not consider them as helpless.

This.

And also - I would think the students are still getting combat experience (via strange Danger Room technology, lol) - so its more like Wolverine focuses on education with a side order of soldiering, and Cyclops focuses on soldiering, with a side order of education. The kids are getting attacked - yep - no doubt, but that's part of the reality of being mutants. Being part of a school teaches them that just because they are a hated race (on the most part) they don't have to live their lives segregated on an island nation.

@LeaderVladimir said:

This is a case of Good versus Good. Instead of just being a typical hero vs hero fight, Wolverine and Cyclops have valid points in their ideas. No one has the moral high ground.

So ultimately, this is what I do agree with. Hero vs hero - good point.

Edited by KenTheProfile

The problem with Cyclops' way is he making soldiers, then what? soldiers only exist to fight wars. Wolvrine is building people. Cyclops is not a father figure or even a good leader. when you proper for only one thing your stupid. Cyclops is proof his idea are worthless. once they fight is over where does he go, to who does he turn? no where, To no one. even his so called soldiers will hate him. look at the rwal world and places like africa you got Child soldiers and that all they will ever be. Because that what they were made into and they know nothing else, so they keep fighting because that all they know. the fact is this is about right and wrong and good and evil. Wolvrine been around long enough to know all fight gets is more fighting. The X-men have given him more to life then just fighting. Wolvrine see that they young mutants need more the fighting because this war like all wars will end.

Edited by DATNIGGA

@KenTheProfile: on a species related perspective humans & mutants will never co exist peacefully. mutant kind according to evolution is the next step humans will never alow themselves to be replaced thus the war will continue

on an economic perspective marvel will never Let this conflict end because without conflict you have no story no story = no money so yea the war will never end

tho cyclops shouldnt JUST teach his students to be solders but should educate them as well but the main focus should be combat there isnt that many of them & they are always being targeted they muat be prepared for war whenever it shows up.

I think wolvie & cyclops should combine there ideas a school/army a place were you can learn & relax & be a kid if you want but a place were you can be lethal & elite if you see fit

Posted by WarMachineMarkV

- Wolverine and Cyclops action and direction are both flawed to the point that defending either is futile, try all you want to defend your personal favorite, but that does not make what either is doing to make any more sense.

- Cyclops thinks he can create an publicly known island nation for mutants just off the coast of California and actually defend it in the long term against all of their enemies. They have barely survived the constant attacks so far and no matter how many of the remaining 200 mutants he can turn to his militarized cause, they cannot stand up to the world and force change. As much as he feels that the X-Men deserve to be able to live out of the shadows, he has no way to enforce it and this attitude will continue to cost lives needlessly.

- Wolverine thinks he can re-open a school that had a death count of at least 50 before being shut down the first time after being opened to the public. Again by not acting in secrecy, no matter how much he vows that he will not allow the student to join the fray, he has guaranteed they will be put in constant danger because their enemies have already seen how effective attacking the school can be from Strykers actions and the mass graves in the back yard. The idea that his small group of teachers can defend the school against any threat is a joke, Exodus alone was more than they could handle.

- The X-Men as a whole should go back to working out of secret facilities as that is the only way they will enjoy any kind of peace in their current climate. They do not have the power, numbers, or political standing to operate in the open and be anything more than a constant victim.

- With the total number of mutants at their disposal the X-Men can stock the rosters of their various field teams without needing to include the trainees barring an emergency. If their enemies didn't know their home address this would become a rarity instead of the norm. Graduating to the field teams would only be after completing an extensive regiment, one that I'm sure characters like Pixie and Armor would be nowhere near completing yet.

- In short both sides of the schism are at fault, and the wants and needs of each could be fulfilled without keeping the other from accomplishing their goals, and without putting their followers through hell

Posted by WarMachineMarkV

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Cyclops. Wolverine's side shows a complete lack of understanding. Cyclops reads the Prince. Logan reads TV Guide, and that comes across in the choices they've made. Cyclops all day, every day. Wolverine's side is the choice for simpletons who will be dead inside of a year (if Marvel editorial got serious)

- I agree that if the editors and writers took seriously the repercussions of their direction the new school would be a graveyard in time, but IMO the same applies to Utopia.

- What makes to believe that Cyclops actions and direction can be successful? I have yet to hear a specific reason why other than blind faith (which is most of the arguements on both sides to be fair)

Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@WarMachineMarkV: History has shown us that hard leaders who do not actively seek out war have shown great success in rejuvenating their domains and keeping their people safe.  
 
Hitler, before going insane, brought an economically and socially devastated Germany back to a potential world-power. Stalin, while working his people to the bone (and again, minus the genocidal aspects of his character), brought Russia into a new Industrial Age.  
 
Cyclops is no saint, he's never pretended to be, but he has kept his people safe, which is a lot more than Wolverine or anyone else was prepared to do. He's done what far, far worse men throughout history managed to do, and he's done it while maintaining some manner of morality, which is an amazing testament to his character. 
Edited by WarMachineMarkV

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@WarMachineMarkV: History has shown us that hard leaders who do not actively seek out war have shown great success in rejuvenating their domains and keeping their people safe. Hitler, before going insane, brought an economically and socially devastated Germany back to a potential world-power. Stalin, while working his people to the bone (and again, minus the genocidal aspects of his character), brought Russia into a new Industrial Age. Cyclops is no saint, he's never pretended to be, but he has kept his people safe, which is a lot more than Wolverine or anyone else was prepared to do. He's done what far, far worse men throughout history managed to do, and he's done it while maintaining some manner of morality, which is an amazing testament to his character.

- Utopia is hardly an apples to apples comparison to Germany or Russia. Those two are both large countries with populations in the tens of millions with military and economic impact that have reached a regional then global scale over time. Cyclops is leading a pseudo micro nation with a population in the low hundreds. Also Hitler and Stalin did not rule over populations that some consider to be made up of living WMD's.

- This is a question of Cyclops actions and direction, not character. I think he is making terrible decisions, but not because he is a bad person or of low morals. This is not a personal attack on the character, if I were to make an attack it would be on the writers who I feel are making him look bad and seem to be ignoring 40 years of characterization.

- I am however confused on how you could consider Utopia, or the X-Men living on it safe by any means. They have been attacked constantly and there is nothing to keep the same from happening in the future. The Extinction Team, while very powerful, is not going to deter their enemies from further assaults. There is also nothing to show that Utopia can or will ever reach any kind of political status that would give it security in the manner that Israel gets from the USA.

- Cyclops was also in charge of the original school when the 40+ kids died on their front lawn (by no means his fault alone, but he has to take some responsibility)

- You are preaching to the choir when expressing how flawed Logan and his new school are, but I still can not see any reason to believe that Utopia is not just as destined to fail, just for a different set of reasons

Posted by DATNIGGA

@WarMachineMarkV: Your right there both flawed however cyclops has shown the ability to keep his people safe time & time again in the face of many different situations he kept his people safe when Xuarus launched that all out vampire attack on utopia. he also kept his people safe from osborn that time when he tryed to force them under his control ect

flawed yes cold yes but still a great leader who is pretty good at making survival choices

now on the subject of utopia. utopia isnt perfect true it is pretty much one big target. but.. there all together all those powers & team work there stronger together than they are apart. & yes like you said they dont really compare to Germany & Russia but lets not forget these are mutants were talking about here. there are some mutants by themselves that can take down an army

in regular countries they have millions of people each person not so powerful but with utopia they have less people but almost each person could take a small army due to there powers. (also there is that aquatic army that namor has)

they have a better chance at doing better as a race if they work together divided its just easier to take them all down however i agree with you when you say they should be more secret about it

Posted by One_Eye

@god_spawn said:

@The Stegman said:

Cyclops, he may be cold blooded, he may be kind of douchey, but let's be realistic, They are living in a world that still hates them, the species is almost extinct, and is being hunted down by various organizations, yes, children shouldn't be in wars, but the fact is, just being a mutant forces them to be in it whether they like it or not, Wolverine maybe be a better father figure in this instance, but in the real world, they need to be trained to survive, not coddled and Scott has the right idea there.

I'd agree with this. Though I do think the kids deserve a bit more than what Cyclops' was giving them. It seemed everyone realized that except Scott and it almost cost him Emma because of it and some of his friends.

Yeah, I'm all for Scott's pragmatism, his tactical mindset, and all but I do wish that they'd allow him to loosen up from time to time. Such as showing him bonding with Nate and Hope more. I'd love to see Scott being in a fatherly role. It'd do wonders for his popularity and could even cascade to him becoming better with the younger mutants rather than others seeing him as a dictator.

Posted by DATNIGGA

@One_Eye: Scott has been super cold the only way i think that will ever change is when/If Jean grey comes back. after all when jean is around him he shows a different side she has the same effect on logan as well.

Posted by God_Spawn

@DATNIGGA said:

@One_Eye: Scott has been super cold the only way i think that will ever change is when/If Jean grey comes back. after all when jean is around him he shows a different side she has the same effect on logan as well.

Doubtful, but it depends who is writing him. I'm sure you have been keeping up with the way Gillen is writing him. He almost broke down at the thought of Emma leaving, he was showing concern for her again throughout issues Uncanny issues 1-3 and he seems to be getting back on good terms with Storm again like in issue 4 and 5.

Moderator
Posted by TheGreyOutcastX

I looked at this as fight between Logic/Reason versus Emotion. Scott's entire platform is logical. You are endangered, the world hates and fears you, you don't have the luxuries of sitting on the sidelines anymore, you need to be ready for when the time comes cause as history shows there will always be battles ahead. Logan is about maintain innocence, trying to keep their humanity alive so they don't become souless husks as a result of traumas of war. He wants to give them as chance to have a normal life. Both are right. Both are wrong. Which is worst is that there is no middle ground even though they say you could go your own way, but considering you are endangered that option is a little stupid. Scott says that Utopia and Westchester can't have undecided people so you have to decide and be sure about it. As for Scott's attitude, his choices are logical ones, majorily asking Storm to stay cause he knew he need the someone who could be the moral voice to his team. He has to be the collected figure like a General so all his ranks respect his judgement and have faith in plan. Not saying he's not without emotion, but you have to think logical. Logan asked people he felt didn't belong there, appealing to their emotions and memories of the past at the Institute. The choice is solely mean to fall on the reader. This is Quesada concept. He didn't want fair weather fans, he wanted them to pick a side: Marvel or DC, Pro or Anti-Registration. It just carried over here. Only difference is there is no one clearly wrong. Just a clash of the interpretation of the Xavier Dream similar to the clash of interpretation of the Constitution and Federal Government by Democrats and Republicans. You apply your view and then pick the side that agrees with your beliefs. As for me, I'm Team Cyclops though I respect the ideology of Team Wolverine.

Posted by WarMachineMarkV

@DATNIGGA said:

@WarMachineMarkV: Your right there both flawed however cyclops has shown the ability to keep his people safe time & time again in the face of many different situations he kept his people safe when Xuarus launched that all out vampire attack on utopia. he also kept his people safe from osborn that time when he tryed to force them under his control ect

flawed yes cold yes but still a great leader who is pretty good at making survival choices

now on the subject of utopia. utopia isnt perfect true it is pretty much one big target. but.. there all together all those powers & team work there stronger together than they are apart. & yes like you said they dont really compare to Germany & Russia but lets not forget these are mutants were talking about here. there are some mutants by themselves that can take down an army

in regular countries they have millions of people each person not so powerful but with utopia they have less people but almost each person could take a small army due to there powers. (also there is that aquatic army that namor has)

they have a better chance at doing better as a race if they work together divided its just easier to take them all down however i agree with you when you say they should be more secret about it

- I give more credit to the leader that keeps their people out of danger in the first place than one that does a good job of getting them through what in many cases was preventable danger. The decision to operate in the open from such an hard to secure position has left them open for the majority of the attacks against them. Saying Scott is great when he repelled a vampire invasion, when its his decisions that made their location known to the attacker in the first place is a flawed example.

- Cyclops could have brought all the mutants together in a secret facility and had the same benefit of consolidating the power of the remaining mutants without the uneccesary danger.

- I agree that there are a handful of mutants who could take on thousands of conventional soldiers and armor, but that is a small minority of the whole. Taking all of the power at their disposal they have ZERO chance against defeating the entire military and resources of a developed nation. Your talking about planes, tanks, Sentinels, and hired non-mutants mercenaries paid by the bottomless pockets of a country.

- Namor does not respect Cyclops, it has been shown over and over on page that he is around only as long as it benefits him and his people (and giving him a chance to steal his girl). If Cyclops decides to take his direction too far, Namor and his army will distance themselves with a quickness.

Edited by DATNIGGA

@god_spawn: doubt full about Jeans return? or Jeans effect?

jean might return one day. as do all dead marvel characters eventually...

& her effects are obvious i mean emma is cool & all but if jean ever came back she would literally get kicked out the door. why do you think shes worried everytime she sees jean grey or a phoinex? im sure he cares for emma of course but at the same time when ever jean is mentioned hes entire demeanor changes he goes from mutant general scott to teenaged super hero scott. also wolverine and cyc have had alot of brawls over jean when she was & when she wasnt alive. also when he was with madylene prior they had a good relationship & they had a kid... then jean came back & all of that just went str8 out the window lol

aside from that he cares about emma & storm because not only do they mean a great deal to him but without his troops he's screwed. how would utopia hope to survive without its powerful mutants helping?

Edited by God_Spawn

@DATNIGGA: I'm not doubting her return, I'm, doubting that's the only way Scott would ever become not as cold. And I strongly disagree with everything you just said doubting even more your stance on the subject cause all that has been explained before and all that has happened. He isn't casually buddy buddy with Storm and Emma. He isn't trying to be friends with Storm so she sticks around. He just doesn't bang Emma and tell him he loves her just so she sticks around. Emma has had plenty of chances to leave when Scott brings Jean up or thinks about her, Emma never left. She had her chance to leave recently and almost did and Scott almost broke down but for a completely different reason and Scott almost broke down. Jean already told Scott to move on in life with Emma, she knows about, she is at peace with it, and it's already been touched up on why he acts the way he does when she is mentioned. As far as I'm concerned that ship has sailed over a decade ago and it's quite obvious.

Moderator
Posted by DATNIGGA

@god_spawn: I'm not saying there casual friends but its obvious he loves emma but its obvious through his actions that he loves jean more. the only reason hes with her is simply because Jean isnt there anymore.

his love for jean > His love for emma

Posted by God_Spawn

@DATNIGGA: Whatever you want to believe, go for it.

Moderator
Posted by Mercy_

@DATNIGGA said:

@god_spawn: I'm not saying there casual friends but its obvious he loves emma but its obvious through his actions that he loves jean more. the only reason hes with her is simply because Jean isnt there anymore.

his love for jean > His love for emma

BS. He was with Emma BEFORE Jean died. He chose Emma BEFORE Jean died. When Jean came back during Endsong, he chose Emma AGAIN.

It never fails to amaze me how the hardcore Jean/Scott shippers always try and twist this around. To be frank, it does a disservice to Jean Grey by making it seem like she'd still choose to be with him after cheating on her.

Moderator
Edited by TheGreyOutcastX

@The Dark Huntress: I agree with this. I am not a fan of Emma, but her relationship with Scott is one of the few things that has seriously kept him sane. They are a strong couple and Scott needs her, that is the truth.

Posted by Mercy_

@TheGreyOutcastX: She's definitely not for everyone. Can I ask what you've read with her in it?

Moderator
Edited by TheGreyOutcastX

@The Dark Huntress: Not much actually. I read a decent portion of the Whedon Astonishing run, bits and pieces of Generation X, and tried to read all the current runs post Schism. I had a falling out with the X-Nation awhile ago hence my scattered reading.

Posted by FrankenKong

I feel Cyclops is right in his ideals. There is no negotiation with the people who are out to get mutants no matter what the cost. The kids have to understand what they are fighting to protect and they must learn it quickly. Sure wolverine has a good intention of helping the kids to lean and grow. however there was a time like that long ago when the mutant population was vast and had better protection by flying under the radar. But that isnt the case now with mutants dwindling in the mere hundreds. Facing extinction mutants have no time for schools but must fight to survive so that the future generations may once again have the pleasure and undetected freedom of going to schools.

Posted by fivestarga

@CATPANEXE said:

I would judge ones character to see how their thought process works and if it's more logical and progressive in serious matters, much in the way a court establishes a character profile and the attorneys send out investigators to do the same, as well to define motive, or how the media and people evaluate a candidates reactions to more standard terms to get a grasp of how they're decision making process works and therefore if they'll make good decisions while in office. That said:

One is rejected by a lover and moves on with his life, the other, well, never had any real relationship with the object of his affection though keeps some of her hair in his underpants drawer and names schools after her and what not. Also the latter is known to end up in severely drunken stupors-often, as well for running around in the woods half to fully naked like a wild animal, and eating other wildly animals while he's at it. Lastly the latter is well known for frequently engaging in blood feuds and territorial pissing contests between anyone and everything that doesn't see eye to eye with him, much of the time taking that as far as to killing them if he can't seek a resolution pleasing to him. The former is well known for following orders well, and behaving in the interest of others before himself, no matter the emotional cost to himself, in the interest of others and the whole itself.

Bringing to me answer: Whose judgement would I consider the safer bet of the two, based on their previous actions in situations that I can relate to given I can't honestly let myself believe I would be able to completely determine what would be the correct, or more logical choice in this large matter?

I'll back Cyclops. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Lord, this is the best comment I've ever read on here. I agree 100%.