DarthShap's forum posts

#1 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

While I did appreciate a lot of the ideas (like Batman actually liking Gotham and its people), many set pieces, the storytelling, the art and the general tone, which is pretty refreshing, this is a very messy, very unfocused (I mean, halfway through, the story just completely changes direction, some characters and ideas just appear out of nowhere, like that Julie Madison scene, some iconic scenes are copy-pasted from Year One without their proper context), overlong origin story that just tries way too much to just be different from what it wants to replace, which leads to many questionable ideas (like "the origin story of Gordon's raincoat", the" I shall be a bat" scene, now in 3D!, the Red Hood being the inspiration behind Bruce deciding he needs to become a bat, Batman giving the finger, Bruce choosing he wants to fight Crime right before a brainwashing session, Gordon being corrupt, Lucius being compromised, Batman being an idiot, a way too literal version of The Killing Joke's "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!", the out of order narration, the way too literal "Batman as a lightning rod" metaphor etc...)

It is a bit like Marc Webb's The Amazing Spider-Man or Zack Snyder's Man of Steel in that sense. It tries so much to do things differently that it often just adds a lot of useless stuff which gets in the way and ends up missing the point.

#2 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

In MoS, Superman is a curse on humanity. The movie keeps saying he is the new Jesus, saviour of all mankind but had he not come to Earth, thousands of people would still be alive.

#4 Edited by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@jamdamage said:

@grey56:

You said it great. I'm shaking my head at the choice here. I don't think people really understand the impact the story had when it came out. The transition of what comics went from to what they are today in terms of how comics grew up because of this story. Where the world was. How the Cold War played a big big part of the presence in the story. Oh Well. It's a new age. It shows the naivety of people. Not for what they chose, but for what was going on when the book was written, and how it really showcased it. This book is so important on so many levels, and now when people read it for the first time they just read a Batman story ad that's it. I can see Hush winning in a way because of the first time someone read it, how great the story was, and how damn good the art was, and introduction of a new villain, but where the hell has really been since. He's been around, he's showed up, but he's pretty lame now. DKR................man I can go on all day about this story, and I'm sure I'm gonna so almost as many posts about how this story got robbed as much as I'm going to read about how good Hush was. Doesn't make sense to me. Court of Owls coming 2nd doesn't either. I want to see where Court of Owls places in 30 years.

The thing is TDKR did change comics. It just did not change Batman comics all that much.

Batman comics were already pretty mature and readers knew that. It's the people who were not reading comics who were surprised by TDKR because, to them, Batman was Adam West or the Superfriends character. But apart from stories like The Cult, Year Two or Ten Nights of the Beast, Batman stories pretty much remained the same. When it was time for Batman to be an extreme 90's Badass, O'Neil decided to created another character, Azrael so that he would become Batman for the time being.

Because that is what TDKR did to comics, it did not make them grow, it made them retarded. It's not Miller's fault, his TDKR was actually pretty great but that's what the Dark Age of comics was, Marvel artists trying to be more badass that Miller's Batman and that's why most Marvel and Image comics pretty much sucked in the 80's and 90's. Batman stories did not because Dennis O'Neil remained the head Batman editor and the writers were pretty much the same guys.

TDKR did not create Watchmen, Sandman, Hellblazer, Animal Man, the Doom Patrol or Starman, the British Invasion did that to comics and it actually started in 1984 when Karen Berger hired Alan Moore to write Swamp Thing.

#5 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@grey56 said:

@darthshap:

Fascinating. Yet in all of this supposed reading there seems to be a systematic blank drawn when it comes to my original thoughts. Or perhaps you're seeking merely to be contrarian over anything for its' own sake. I cannot tell. Yet thank you for Fingering me in the right direction over where the incipient roots of the character were originally based - I might otherwise have stumbled down into a dark place.

A systematic listing of writer/creators whom helmed the two titles during a two decade span before the seminal work of Miller is probably a better way to discredit the sweeping impact of an industry forming story. It's also odd how, paired with all of these ruminations over other previous works, you've managed to ignore the accumulation of almost 3 decades worth of publications which have evaluated the ebb and creative flow within the industry.

But you're probably right though, my dearth of knowledge from comics past and present paired with my journeyman level of critical responses to the medium throughout its history probably precludes my ability to offer canonical insight to things now eponymous within the industry.

You're welcome.

You're kind of like all those people saying Hush was very original or that Court of Owls was the greatest thing ever. I'm not blaming you. You just did not know any better. Now that you do, you can read those Bronze age comics and see for yourself.

#6 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthshap said:

@grey56 said:

@darthshap:

Denny took an ailing property reeling from bad marketing a la campy television shows, stagnant sales and branding not consistent with Kane's vision. He assisted in the transition for the torch pass to Neal Adams whom would then bring the character back to its thematic roots.

Also, Giordano hired Miller to write the story in the wake of other similar character success from film. To argue that TDKR isn't the progenitor from which all modern Batman stories are is superfluous at best and ignores known motifs and critical reviews at worst.

The stories you've listed are all consistent with sister colors to the mythos but were not the singular event from which all others would flow 3 decades thereafter. Again, upon a re-reading of my original post you may see that the initial declaration isn't inhibited by any other tar laid down by other prolific creators - they simply were not the unifying event by which all other stories on this list were made possible by.

1) You really should not talk about "Kane's vision" when you're talking about Batman. At best, Bob Kane did 30% of the work. Pretty much everything you know and love about the character came from the mind of Bill Finger.

2)The 1966 TV show did absolutely nothing to the tone of the comics. Batman comics were kind of silly ever since the 1940's, when Robin came along and Batman dropped his gun, when he stopped being a Shadow rip-off and became a super-hero.

3)Neal Adams was a penciller. I think the only Batman story he wrote was Odyssey, in the 2010's.

4)I argue that TDKR isn't the progenitor to all modern Batman comics because I have actually read a lot of comics from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's which means I can see where and when the big change happened and it wasn't TDKR. Dennis O'Neil was the game changer, not Miller. Guys like O'Neil, Englehart, Wolfman, Wein, Moench, Goodwin, Conway, Levitz etc... were writing pretty dark Batman stories wayyyy before Miller came along and they kept on writing these dark stories after he had done his two masterpieces.

5)If you do not think the arrival of Dennis O'Neil on the book was a big thing, I'm sorry but you just do not know much about comics history. That's what he did in the late 60's-early 70's. He was the guy who put an end to DC's Silver Age. His Wonder-Woman, Superman, Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow were absolutely revolutionary.

Bob Kane is human garbage!

http://dialbforblog.com/archives/391/

Agreed. Bob Kane was basically the Devil :

http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-164-bob-kane-is-just-the-worst/

#7 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@grey56 said:

@darthshap:

Denny took an ailing property reeling from bad marketing a la campy television shows, stagnant sales and branding not consistent with Kane's vision. He assisted in the transition for the torch pass to Neal Adams whom would then bring the character back to its thematic roots.

Also, Giordano hired Miller to write the story in the wake of other similar character success from film. To argue that TDKR isn't the progenitor from which all modern Batman stories are is superfluous at best and ignores known motifs and critical reviews at worst.

The stories you've listed are all consistent with sister colors to the mythos but were not the singular event from which all others would flow 3 decades thereafter. Again, upon a re-reading of my original post you may see that the initial declaration isn't inhibited by any other tar laid down by other prolific creators - they simply were not the unifying event by which all other stories on this list were made possible by.

1) You really should not talk about "Kane's vision" when you're talking about Batman. At best, Bob Kane did 30% of the work. Pretty much everything you know and love about the character came from the mind of Bill Finger.

2)The 1966 TV show did absolutely nothing to the tone of the comics. Batman comics were kind of silly ever since the 1940's, when Robin came along and Batman dropped his gun, when he stopped being a Shadow rip-off and became a super-hero.

3)Neal Adams was a penciller. I think the only Batman story he wrote was Odyssey, in the 2010's.

4)I argue that TDKR isn't the progenitor to all modern Batman comics because I have actually read a lot of comics from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's which means I can see where and when the big change happened and it wasn't TDKR. Dennis O'Neil was the game changer, not Miller. Guys like O'Neil, Englehart, Wolfman, Wein, Moench, Goodwin, Conway, Levitz etc... were writing pretty dark Batman stories wayyyy before Miller came along and they kept on writing these dark stories after he had done his two masterpieces.

5)If you do not think the arrival of Dennis O'Neil on the book was a big thing, I'm sorry but you just do not know much about comics history. That's what he did in the late 60's-early 70's. He was the guy who put an end to DC's Silver Age. His Wonder-Woman, Superman, Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow were absolutely revolutionary.

#8 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthshap said:

Hush? That's just sad.

Hush is not bad but it's just not very interesting either. Basically, it has no original scene. Every scene comes from some better, more original comic book. In the end, it's just a well made "best of Batman" drawn by Jim Lee.

How so? There are a lot of continuity elements from the story but it does have a lot of original ideas. Hush himself was, while maybe not that original from a storytelling angle, was a very great and interesting and complicated villain.

It was also a good one-off story. While it does pull off of past ideas, you don't have to know all kinds of information about that past to know what's going on. Really the only thing you have to know is that Jason Todd died at the hands of the Joker. That's about it. So if you don't want to go back and find/read volumes upon volumes of stories to understand what's going on, this is perfect.

Its a really great story. With great art. I've read it somewhere between 15-20 times and every time I can't put it down. Its never gotten old.

All-in-all, I'm just not understanding how being a, as you put it, "Best of Batman" story is so bad. It draws from all corners of Batman's mythology, which is a good thing. I enjoy Batman's supporting cast for a reason...and that's because they're great characters that can support themselves but work so much better when put beside Batman.

Which ideas are original?
Hush himself is just another anti-Batman, like Mike Barr's Wrath or Bane.
Hush being new reader friendly really does not make it great. Being new reader friendly and being good are two completely different things.
Drawing elements from other stories is OK, but you really need to do something different with those. Here, Loeb is just stealing entire scenes from other books. Catwoman seeing Batman's scars, Batman being stopped from killing the Joker, the sword fight scene in the desert with Ra's, Batman fighting Superman, Harvey Dent being cured, etc...
It's not a bad selection of Batman's greatest hits and it's definitely well done but if you've already read The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne, Death in the Family, the original Ra's al Ghul saga, etc... there really is not anything new to see here.

#9 Edited by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@grey56 said:

I say again; without The Dark Knight Returns - none of these would've been possible. The publishing milieu wouldn't have allowed such creative license with any such iconic property. Assuming it was even creatively inferior to anything on this list - it is still the father of all modern Batmen whom we read.

Considering though that most voting and commenting here weren't even born when this nearly 30 year old property was published; it's a small wonder that they vote for things more nascent to them. I suppose street graffiti appears masterful when the Sistine Chapel is a noise someone makes while sneezing.

No. Dennis O'Neil reinvented Batman in the 70's. Miller wrote two great stories and went further with the dark approach to the character but O'Neil was the one who originated it, some fifteen years before TDKR.

If you're looking for the real comics which fathered the modern Batman, read Joker's five way revenge, There is no hope in crime alley, Half an Evil or the first Ra's al Ghul saga, all of which were written by O'Neil years before he hired Miller to write TDKR (he also edited TDKR).

#10 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

Hush? That's just sad.
Hush is not bad but it's just not very interesting either. Basically, it has no original scene. Every scene comes from some better, more original comic book. In the end, it's just a well made "best of Batman" drawn by Jim Lee.