Spider-Man the Animated Series

It has come to my attention that the shows that Marvel was coming up with in the 90s are pretty popular and a lot of people really seem to love them.  Well, I'm about to explain why one of the most well-known ones, Spider-Man the Animated Series is one of or the worst cartoons I have ever seen.  I know some of you may just love these 90s shows, so if you think I'm full of it, you can stop reading, OR, you can hear what I have to say.  Note that this is going to probably sound like a rant, so if you don't like rants, then you may want to stop reading. 
 
For those that remain, allow me to tell you why this show sucked.... 
  
Now I've seen several episodes of this show, and I myself am a true-blue Spider-Man fan.  But this....this was bad.  Why?  Here's a list of reasons: 
  
1. Bad Voice acting, and even worse dialogue. 
2. Bad forced angst.
3. No Gwen Stacy, except as the girlfriend to an alternate Spider-Man.  They also didn't really accurately portray her persoanlity either.
4. The fact that they did the Hobgoblin before the Green Goblin.  (Now, I like Hobgoblin, but you don't put him before Green Goblin, it just dosen't make any sense)
5. The fact that we got Hydro-Man, but not Sandman. Sandman isn't my favorite Spider-Man villain, but he's a major one and it makes sense for him to be on the show.  And he never appeared.  Instead, we got guys like the Spot, Morbius, and the aforementioned Hyrdo-Man.  Big f---ing deal.
6. Laser-Guns.  That's right.  Laser-Guns.  I understand if they don't want any blood and gore in the show, but come on, Laser-Guns in modern times?  And for EVERYONE?  Just saying.  They should have had guns with bullets but just not have anyone get hit by them.  I mean, Spider-Man's not considered one of the most agile guys around for nothing, folks.   

7. Electro being the Red Skull's son, and Chameleon being his step-brother.  I'm sorry, but everyone has to admit that was stupid.
8. A very crappy interpretation of Osborn being struck by his own glider.  In the show, all being struck by his own glider dose is knock him into a dimensional portal.  Lame. 
9. Norman Osborn and Doctor Octopus, largely considered to be Spider-Man's two greatest enemies, here, are just whiney minions of the Kingpin.  The Kingpin himself was WAY overused.  He was pretty much the main villain of the show, which really, really sucked.  I don't like Kingpin.  I think he is way overrated and overused.  To make him the main villain on the show, and just have Spider-Man's two top foes as his puppets is just bogus and is a pathetic attempt to make Kingpin seem cool.  It's also worth mentioning that he had a righthand goon who looked like a Two-Face rip-off.  He really sucked.
10. Tombstone's origin in the show was a rip-off of the Joker's most widely accepted origin.  Of course, to be fair, I don't like Tombstone in general, but the Spectacular Spider-Man show made him cool.
11. Mary Jane being devoid of much of a personality, and being rather dull because of it.  I seem to remember not caring that she had apparently returned from the dead, or that Peter wanted to marry her.
12. Super Soldier Black Cat, which included her getting white hair by "powering up".  Now tell me you don't think that's silly.   
13. Venom had big lips.  I don't think I really need to go into details on that one.  Just that if you thought Topher Grace was a bad Venom, you ain't seen nothing yet.  
14. The fact that the Sinister Six was called the INSIDIOUS SIX.  Because they thought "Sinister" was to quote Wikipedia "Too menacing a word for children."  I'm sorry, but that is flat-out nonsense.  I can't possibly fathom what the hell those Fox Censors were thinking.   
15. A clone of Mary Jane with Hydro-Man's powers?  Are we even being serious here?  And the only reason they did that was because here, for some idioitic reason, they liked the idea of Hydro-Man being obsessed with Mary Jane.  Ridiculous much?  
16. The Series finale (which was never finished because the show was thank G-d, finally cancelled.) The first half of said series finale was a pathetic adaption of Secret Wars, and the second half being a team of Spider-Men taking on Spider-Carnage, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, and....Kingpin AGAIN!!!  Admittingly, the idea of a team of Spider-Men working together sounds cool, but just get Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions when it comes out.  I can assure you it's a much cooler version of the episodes.
17. The fact that their was WAY TOO MANY ROMANCES!  Don't get me wrong, I like a good romance, but here, EVERYONE had a love interest.  Scorpion! Mysterio! Blade!  Prowler! The Spot!  Yep, the Spot had a love interest, can you believe that?  A Z-List Spider-Man villain and they go out of their way to give him a love interest.  That's just silly. And they also made really, really random couples.  If you thought Hawkgirl and John Stewart on JLU was weird, you haven't seen anything yet.  Besides the Hydro-Man Mary Jane one I mentioned earlier, they had Blade having a thing for a detective who worked with Spider-Man a lot, AND they had a Morbius-Felicia Hardy-Deborah Whitman love triangle.  That's so silly I don't even know where to start.  Morbius was way too prominent in the show by the way.  While he's definintely better then the Spot that's not exactly high praise.  He's still a lame villain in my opinion.  To me, he's just an excuse to have a vampire.  And to give him a romance with Black Cat is just plain 
stupid.
 18. And finally, on top of everything else, the complete and total lack of convincing action.  You want to know why Batman the Animated Series and all of the other DC shows made by those guys worked?  Because they knew that with shows about superheroes, people will get punched, kicked, and just plain roughed up.  The aforementioned usage of Laser Guns, the fact that glass could not be broken (I'm not kidding with that one) and the fact that I can't recall a single time when anyone got punched or kicked fails this show.  Come on Marvel.  You too Fox.  And I know why they did it too.  Because they didn't want the show to be too violent for the little kids.  I feel I must mention that EVERY LITTLE KID I know (except maybe my cousins) love their violence.  Some just can't get enough of it.  I bet that if I showed an episode of Spider-Man: The Animated Series to these little kids I know, most of them will probably think it's crap, or at the least, needs more action.  I almost guarantee it.
 
I think I've just proved why the show was horrible, having just given 18 reasons why.  Now, don't get me wrong, I acknowledge that this was a different time (the 90s) but that was also (for me) the time when comics were really starting to get good (well, some of them anyway) and you would think that after Batman the Animated Series, followed by both Superman the Animated Series and The New Batman Adventures, Marvel would see what DC was doing right and step up their game.  Nope.  Instead, the same problems present in Spider-Man the animated Series, and the shows that came before it, would go on to be present in the other Marvel shows of that era, and even into more recent shows like Wolverine and the X-Men.  I'm sorry, but that's just pathetic.   
 
Now, just to prove that I'm not the only one who hated this show, I found a list on another website that gives many of the exact same problems I've listed. 

http://fans.marvel.com/go/thread/view/108222/23291506/Spectacular_Spider-Man    
If you look at this link you will find a list that looks an awful lot like mine.  That's because I agree with every point this guy made.  And it was only after reading it did I realize how right he was and made this rant. 
 
So yeah, in my mind, to say the 90s Spider-Man show was horrible, is a GROSS understatement.  It is a complete disgrace to every single character that ever appeared on that show.  And I have absolutely no regrets in saying that.

53 Comments
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Posted by LT1085

Somebody's cranky today...

Posted by Darth-Spidey
@LT1085 said:
"Somebody's cranky today... "

Cranky?  Nah, I just wanted to get it off my chest.  I'm not THAT cranky, I just acknowledge that crap is crap.
Posted by Dracade102

The DCAU Kicks the Sh*t out of Spidey's Show. Badly. Especially Since I Remember a Streak where they showed the EXACT SAME EPISODE with Morbius  EVERY SATURDAY for like a month, And It pissed me off. That's Just Plain Stupid!!! And ELECTRO WAS THE RED SKULL'S SON??? That's like Saying THE RIDDLER  is Lex Luthor's Cousin!!! BWAAAA AHAHSDFGBHYJUKJYTHGTFR *My Head bursts from anger*

Posted by Hunter114

To be fair some of those problems were caused by Fox's censorship and some from your own dislike of the characters used... and it still lasted longer than all of the Marvel or DC runs on today, so they were obviously doing something right.

Edited by Darth-Spidey
@Hunter114 said:

"To be fair some of those problems were caused by Fox's censorship and some from your own dislike of the characters used... and it still lasted longer than all of the Marvel or DC runs on today, so they were obviously doing something right. "


I personally think the show is and was, successful because it was all people had, and for a lot of hardcore Spider-Man fans, this seemed like a dream come true.  While it's true I don't like some of the villains used, don't you think that making a C-Lister like Morbius so prominent is just a little bit ridiculous?  Or Green Goblin taking a backseat to Kingpin?
Posted by Hunter114
@Darth-Spidey:
Morbius wasn't that prominent, he was part of a greater over-all story (Neogenic Nightmare) which he fit into well, as for Kingpin, he was a means by which other characters could be brought in, otherwise there would probably be fewer characters. Green Goblin was there when he needed to be, there aren't that many storylines he could have been put into of the four themes that were written for each season.
Posted by InnerVenom123

Thank you. That show is so overrated its not even funny. 

Posted by Darth-Spidey
@InnerVenom123:
Finally, someone who agrees.
Posted by Darth-Spidey
@Hunter114 said:
" @Darth-Spidey: Morbius wasn't that prominent, he was part of a greater over-all story (Neogenic Nightmare) which he fit into well, as for Kingpin, he was a means by which other characters could be brought in, otherwise there would probably be fewer characters. Green Goblin was there when he needed to be, there aren't that many storylines he could have been put into of the four themes that were written for each season. "
Morbius wasn't that prominent?  I beg to differ.  When you have both Felicia and Deborah having a thing for him, he's being made too important.  It's up there for me as one of the worst love triangles I've ever seen.
Posted by Rosebunse

I agree, the show doesn't hold up too well anymore, but it's a part of my childhood, and I enjoy it. But why isn't Morbius's power-redo in here? They tried to make him less scary by giving him suckers on his hands and by turning him into a bigger bat mutant than he already is! How was that suppose to be less scary than the original? How?! That gave me nightmares for years! Years! Thank you Fox for one of the worst ideas ever. MZ3 Zombie Morbius wasn't even that bad!
Posted by Darth-Spidey
@Rosebunse said:
"I agree, the show doesn't hold up too well anymore, but it's a part of my childhood, and I enjoy it. But why isn't Morbius's power-redo in here? They tried to make him less scary by giving him suckers on his hands and by turning him into a bigger bat mutant than he already is! How was that suppose to be less scary than the original? How?! That gave me nightmares for years! Years! Thank you Fox for one of the worst ideas ever. MZ3 Zombie Morbius wasn't even that bad! "

Sorry, forgot about that one.  There were a ton of problems with that atrocity and I couldn't list them all.  As for being a part of one's childhood, that's also probably why the show holds it's own today.  Because it was what people grew up with.  But I used to like this show well enough when I was young, but now I acknowledge how bad it was.
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt

It's not all bad, there was some good stuff, Black Cat comes to mind, though her joining Blade and Morbius was just stupid. 
 
For every one good thing, there was 10 bad, that was the problem with the series.

Edited by Darth-Spidey
@FadeToBlackBolt:
Too true.
Posted by I'maDC/ImageGuy!

  

  
Posted by NexusOfLight

So when you were watchin' this show some ten-twenty years ago, was this exactly how you felt? I find that hard to believe, especially considering this line:
 
@Darth-Spidey
said:

http://fans.marvel.com/go/thread/view/108222/23291506/Spectacular_Spider-Man    

If you look at this link you will find a list that looks an awful lot like mine.  That's because I agree with every point this guy made.  And it was only after reading it did I realize how right he was and made this rant. "

As a side note, I saw a very similar list like this on Wikipedia, Youtube, and I think I've seen a thread like this around here on Comic Vine before, so this really isn't news to most. 
 
The way I see it, none of the censorships really mattered. When I was five, six, seven, eight, however old I was, I couldn't care less that they used lasers instead of bullets. Didn't care that no one got punched, didn't care that they changed "sinister" to "insidious." Seriously, what difference did that make? As for Kingpin being the main enemy, whoopee doo. They brought in a lot of enemies, and every enemy had their moment, really every character had their moment. I could through each one of those points of yours (really that other guy's since you didn't really make this list yourself) and tell you how most of that didn't really make a difference on the average 4-8 year old's viewing experience. The show did great for itself, it got a lot of kids interested in the character and more importantly, the comics, it's still generally held in high regard, so I say the show was more than a success. Making a list about how "bad" a show that was made in a completely different era, targeted at a different audience is sorta well...this is a rant, but still, I'd say there are better things you could rant about.
Posted by Darth-Spidey
@NexusOfLight said:
"So when you were watchin' this show some ten-twenty years ago, was this exactly how you felt? I find that hard to believe, especially considering this line:
 
@Darth-Spidey
said:
http://fans.marvel.com/go/thread/view/108222/23291506/Spectacular_Spider-Man    

If you look at this link you will find a list that looks an awful lot like mine.  That's because I agree with every point this guy made.  And it was only after reading it did I realize how right he was and made this rant. "

As a side note, I saw a very similar list like this on Wikipedia, Youtube, and I think I've seen a thread like this around here on Comic Vine before, so this really isn't news to most.  The way I see it, none of the censorships really mattered. When I was five, six, seven, eight, however old I was, I couldn't care less that they used lasers instead of bullets. Didn't care that no one got punched, didn't care that they changed "sinister" to "insidious." Seriously, what difference did that make? As for Kingpin being the main enemy, whoopee doo. They brought in a lot of enemies, and every enemy had their moment, really every character had their moment. I could through each one of those points of yours (really that other guy's since you didn't really make this list yourself) and tell you how most of that didn't really make a difference on the average 4-8 year old's viewing experience. The show did great for itself, it got a lot of kids interested in the character and more importantly, the comics, it's still generally held in high regard, so I say the show was more than a success. Making a list about how "bad" a show that was made in a completely different era, targeted at a different audience is sorta well...this is a rant, but still, I'd say there are better things you could rant about. "

Find something better to rant about?  Probably.  I guess it's the 90s show fanboys and the fact that these mistakes were repeated that drive me bonkers.  Many of the other marvel shows I've seen make similar mistakes, and it becomes a drag for a fan like myself, who wants a good show but gets ones aimed specifically for little kids and no one else again and again.  While it's true my list and his are similar, I agree with his points.  As already stated, though I liked the show when I was younger, I didn't know any better, and only later did I look back and realize how....weak, it was.  As far as the censorship, to me it matters.  I can't honestly take a superhero show seriously when things are so painfully dumbed down.  That's just my opinion. 
Posted by Crackdown

I actually agree with making the hobgoblin come  first, it helps the Green Goblins name make sense. Why be the green goblin if there are no other goblins? Might as well just call yourself Goblin

Posted by Darth-Spidey
@Crackdown said:
"I actually agree with making the hobgoblin come  first, it helps the Green Goblins name make sense. Why be the green goblin if there are no other goblins? Might as well just call yourself Goblin"

Funny you should say that.  A lot of reinterpretations of the Green Goblin have him just calling himself "The Goblin"  So you may just have a point there.  It's just to me, Hobgoblin is, cool as he is, a knock-off.  And I feel it dosen't make much sense to have the knock-off come before the original, though you did bring up a point that I had never thought of before, so there is that.
Posted by Death Certificate
@Darth-Spidey:
You could have mentioned how they portraded some of the villians a tad too stupid, old people being to Senile, vulture and slivermane having the same goals, overuse of the transdimensional portal/  neogenic recombinator and also how horrible the green goblin was. If I didn't read the comics, I would still think he's a corny-ass rip-off of the hobgoblin. I agree with all points but wouldn't say it was all bad, I would say that anything after half of season 3 was bad. 
   
Posted by Darth-Spidey
@Death Certificate said:
"@Darth-Spidey:
You could have mentioned how they portraded some of the villians a tad too stupid, old people being to Senile, vulture and slivermane having the same goals, overuse of the transdimensional portal/  neogenic recombinator and also how horrible the green goblin was. If I didn't read the comics, I would still think he's a corny-ass rip-off of the hobgoblin. I agree with all points but wouldn't say it was all bad, I would say that anything after half of season 3 was bad. 
    "

Thank you for the positive feedback friend.  And yeah, there was the overuse of the dimensional portals and the fact that the villains sucked, but I only wanted to list some things.  And as for the villains being stupid, well, given the poor writing, people being stupid was kind of a given to me.  But yeah, you're right.
Posted by Primmaster64

hmmm

Posted by Pacperson

Yeah.....that's all pretty true....but i think the 90's show captured the spirit of spidey, if this is one of the worst cartoons you have ever seen, you haven't seen that many.
 
besides the spectacular spider man cartoon was 100x better anyway =p go watch that

Posted by Darth-Spidey
@Pacperson said:
"Yeah.....that's all pretty true....but i think the 90's show captured the spirit of spidey, if this is one of the worst cartoons you have ever seen, you haven't seen that many.  besides the spectacular spider man cartoon was 100x better anyway =p go watch that "

You're right. The Spectacular Spider-Man show IS 100X better.  At least.  Already saw every episode.  And as far as cartoons go, I've seen my share, but I usually only saw ones I knew I liked.  Nowadays, I don't see much period.
Posted by NexusOfLight
@Darth-Spidey said:
" @NexusOfLight said:
"So when you were watchin' this show some ten-twenty years ago, was this exactly how you felt? I find that hard to believe, especially considering this line:
 
@Darth-Spidey
said:
http://fans.marvel.com/go/thread/view/108222/23291506/Spectacular_Spider-Man    

If you look at this link you will find a list that looks an awful lot like mine.  That's because I agree with every point this guy made.  And it was only after reading it did I realize how right he was and made this rant. "

As a side note, I saw a very similar list like this on Wikipedia, Youtube, and I think I've seen a thread like this around here on Comic Vine before, so this really isn't news to most.  The way I see it, none of the censorships really mattered. When I was five, six, seven, eight, however old I was, I couldn't care less that they used lasers instead of bullets. Didn't care that no one got punched, didn't care that they changed "sinister" to "insidious." Seriously, what difference did that make? As for Kingpin being the main enemy, whoopee doo. They brought in a lot of enemies, and every enemy had their moment, really every character had their moment. I could through each one of those points of yours (really that other guy's since you didn't really make this list yourself) and tell you how most of that didn't really make a difference on the average 4-8 year old's viewing experience. The show did great for itself, it got a lot of kids interested in the character and more importantly, the comics, it's still generally held in high regard, so I say the show was more than a success. Making a list about how "bad" a show that was made in a completely different era, targeted at a different audience is sorta well...this is a rant, but still, I'd say there are better things you could rant about. "
Find something better to rant about?  Probably.  I guess it's the 90s show fanboys and the fact that these mistakes were repeated that drive me bonkers.  Many of the other marvel shows I've seen make similar mistakes, and it becomes a drag for a fan like myself, who wants a good show but gets ones aimed specifically for little kids and no one else again and again.  While it's true my list and his are similar, I agree with his points.  As already stated, though I liked the show when I was younger, I didn't know any better, and only later did I look back and realize how....weak, it was.  As far as the censorship, to me it matters.  I can't honestly take a superhero show seriously when things are so painfully dumbed down.  That's just my opinion.  "
Well, yeah, you say that now because you're older. Of course you're going to take censorships more seriously, but as a child, it really didn't make a difference because--well yeah--you "didn't know [or care] any better." And the show was made for kids, so it's not that deep. 
Posted by Zniperking

Damn I didn't realize till now thank you, I didn't know the show was bad thank you for pointing it out

Posted by Darth-Spidey

Your welcome.  Yeah, that was one of the reasons I made this rant in the first place.  To spread the word.

Posted by MAV

I agree with you, this show is really overrated. I expecially hate lame action scenes and the fact that they made Kingpin stronger than Rhido
Posted by Dracade102
@MAV said:
" I agree with you, this show is really overrated. I expecially hate lame action scenes and the fact that they made Kingpin stronger than Rhino "

W. T. F???

Posted by MAV
@Dracade102 said:
" @MAV said:
" I agree with you, this show is really overrated. I expecially hate lame action scenes and the fact that they made Kingpin stronger than Rhino "

W. T. F???

"

In episode Six forgotten warriors, Kingpin was able to tear of the shackles that kept Rhino fields
Posted by comicdude23
the show rocked
Posted by Deadcool
@Darth-Spidey:
I am agree with most of the things in your post except with 3 things, I liked the Kingpin in that cartoon (and I also like this Character in Ultimate Spider-man and A-SM: Back in Black), as kid I enjoyed that garbage, kids just don't care what are they watching, and Cartoons are for kids, I mean, yeah is garbage, but still for kids, most of the elements in your point of view could be important if that cartoon were for adults, or comic fans, but Kids don't give a F@(& about it, they are too inocent for it, is a horrible cartoon, but it is decent for me, because at least I know that a lot of us enjoyed this GARBAGE...
Oh, I also loved the opening... LOL
Posted by Mentlegen

I grew up with the 90s animated Spidey show and loved every episode.

Edited by OminousFlare

So, uh... what is it you said in your rant? 'Coz I just skip through the crap.
 
Anywho, I think people are forgetting about the CDB factor. After all the cheesy laser sound effects and the numerous weak storylines, it's Barnes' splendid voice-acting that lured me back to watching this show over and over again. Everytime I tried listening to Keaton, I feel nauseous when I think about how he's the Justin Bieber of the Spider-Man universe.
 
Oh, and of course, there was also that little bit of factor that's the well-developed character personalities in TAS. Becayse if Peter's personality was shit in TAS, it wouldn't be more memorable than Josh Keaton's Peter, whom I couldn't quite remember what he's like (other than he makes a very funny Spidey).

Posted by Matezoide2

you forgot two important things
 
19) Venom's colors
 
 
20) Spider-Man wasnt allowed to hit anyone

Posted by Death Certificate
@Matezoide said:
"you forgot two important things
 
19) Venom's colors
   20) Spider-Man wasnt allowed to hit anyone "

 
LMAFO 
 I almost forgot that he was red and blue, at first I thought it was a lighted shade of red effect, but then they episode with venom in bright rooms and I was thinking WTF.
Edited by OminousFlare

I thought that looked pretty well for someone who later spawned a Carnage symbiotic which is red in color.
 
So, anyway, for the sake of ranting, I'm just going to copy-paste something I wrote in another forum:
 Spectacular's script was right on the spot, but I never really gotten to like how they made slight alterations to certain artistic aspects that made Spec look more like a spin-off like Ultimate Spidey is to Amazing. Gwen's glasses for example. And then there was the Goblin outfit, of which its color tones look like the original Goblin outfit, but is never as true to it as the '90s version. And then there are several animation aspects that make the overall look feel... different, whether it's the way Peter or MJ look (more preteen-ized), their eyes being more cartoonish than ever, or, the biggest problem I have, how the outfits of several other villains (Doc Ock and Electro, just to name a few) look more upgraded. Like Raimi's Spidey organic webbing upgraded.

Hammerhead is the only one that looks better than his '90s incarnations, without a doubt, and Silver Sable looks great, too. And the scripting is, once again, very polished and decent (contrary to the outfits, the jokes are a welcoming upgrade). But somehow, it doesn't feel like the old first hundred issues of Amazing Spider-Man I have read. As I said, it feels more like Ultimate Spidey, or the first 10 or 12 issues of Untold Tales of Spider-Man, especially with how much 'younger' and 'kiddier' the animation has been set to.

But alas, I grew up in the '90s, so my favorite incarnation is a natural one. TAS has some problems, but I'm just as amazed (pardon the pun) at how it also managed to fit those little comic book references and 'wink-winks' in the series when I watch it in my current age, just as the '67 Spider-Man series had. I'm sure Spectacular also have this, but with the reasons given above, Spec to TAS feels like Nolan's Batman compared to Burton's. It's all about the atmosphere. 
 
Regarding Spider-Man not hitting anyone in the show. To be fair, Spider-Man is not exactly the strongest superhero in the Marvel universe. Besides, it's not the Spider-Man we're watching/reading for, it's the Peter Parker. And I felt the characterization was decently done.
 
The Hydro Man arc never really interested me. He feels like a punk to me more than a villain. So, it was a poor choice. The reason they couldn't use Sandman, btw, was because he was gonna be used in a canceled James Cameron Spider-Man movie, along with Electro and, I presume, Gwen Stacy.
 
Consider this: Given what they had to handle with, with the studio barking at them not to include adult stuff (not sure whether if Spec is just as censored), they get an A for effort. Yes, I got annoyed at the lack of punches, too, but if anything, he was definitely not shown to be a wimp. Want to know why? If you refer to my answer and refute to your point about Spider-Man incompetence, I wrote that Spider-Man is not the strongest superhero in the Marvel universe. Now, what did I mean by that, I wonder? Maybe because he's also Peter Parker, Science Genius, not to mention having a lot of BRAINS to work with than brawn.

If you notice throughout the series, Spidey often worked out the problems with his brain. Like when he led the Secret Wars as a leader. Or when he solved the whole time-dimensional accelerator problem The Spot had (Kingpin: "Spider-Man is a scientist?!"). Or how about the Spider Slayers arc, when he clogged the Black Widow's jet-engines with web-fluid, or when he, in the second-half of that arc, used liquid oxygen to remove the bomb attached to his wrist (among other wise moves). Or how about he defeated DORMAMMU himself (with Venom and Iron Man's distractions, yes, but like I wrote, he's the brains of this operation) by closing up the portal with, once again, his scientific knowhow. Or how about... ah, you get the point.

In fact, when reading the old ASM comics (and please do note that I am referring to the old 184 issues of ASM here), I realized just how weak Spidey can be when battling real villains, only lucking out, have an over-egoistical villain, or using his brains to achieve the ultimate victory. That's what's so 'amazing' about Spider-Man, that he is, time and time again, able to beat the bad guys without using pure strength. For he is... THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN! (And yes, I hadtta say that) And don't go telling me that raw strength makes Spider-Man amazing. What makes Iron Man 'Invincible?' It's not his armor, clearly. It's his heart. And what makes a monstrous thing like The Hulk 'Incredible?' It's his everlasting struggle to be consumed by his bloodlust for rage, anger. I think it's rather true to form here that Spider-Man is not doing a lot of fighting more than thinking. But you can't say he never fought a villain before in this show, or that he never got in a fight on his own before. Remember Venom in the first season?

One problem, I'll admit, is the number of superhero cameos. I think the creators were so eager to focus on the 'team-up' aspect of Spider-Man that he was left seemingly upstaged, perhaps to show how many friends he has in the Superhero world.

Also, I really love the co-stars of the other superheroes that teamed up with Spidey (a nice wink to Marvel Team-Up). And Venom was just badass compared to Spec's version, having even adapted the anti-hero aspect of Venom. Yes, the '90s retconned Venom was a poor choice, but blame the adapted material, not the adaptation for being true to form. At least the whole 'attaining the black suit' story was altered to a more realistic form. And I felt they made it really fun by including the three lamest villains of all and made them cool, The Spot, The Rocket Racer, and even (dare I say it) The Big Wheel, even to the part where he couldn't pull a brake on the mechanical wheel (I lol'd).

Finally, I don't really like 'spins' of any kind on Spider-Man. Spider-Man's original material is good enough. Don't alter Electro's classic costume (yes, they later changed the origin of Electro, this is due to the canceled 'James Cameron movie' I mentioned above, but I don't really mind this one much because they kept the original costume). Don't change the way Green Goblin looks. You might as well change the way Spider-Man looks (oops, too late for that).

Alas, there are quite a few things I don't like about TAS myself as well, most of which include the abovementioned censoring problems, but until something that could top the 'comic comes alive' look in TAS, I'm gonna stick with the '90s, for now. I don't have high hopes for Disney's Ultimate, considering I don't really prefer the comic over ASM.
 
Lastly, regarding Josh Keaton. I like how Christopher Daniel Barnes made Spider-Man seem like a potential senior hero in the superhero career, especially in his voicing of Spider-Man Noir in Shattered Dimensions. Josh Keaton's Ultimate Spidey sounded like he's still a grasshopper GreenHorn in the career, which is fine for USM, but CDB's version is suitable for the Spider-Man that is today, when he's grown up and married in his middle age (or 23-25, whatever).

Even in the series, he didn't sound exactly like so young you couldn't take Spider-Man seriously. I thought the whole point of Marvel superheroes being amazed that Spider-Man is a kid is probably because 1) he don't act like one in serious moments, 2) he doesn't have the physique of a teenager, and 3) he sounds older than he looks. But the last one is really a theory, because you can't listen to comics (unless you count those audio-comics back in the day).
 
One more personal note from myself that's not copy-pasted: I don't understand why people could appreciate the classic 1967 Spider-Man animated series, overlooking its much more corny sound effects and campy but vintage graphics, but still be bothered by the cheesy laser sound effects in the '90s series, unable to appreciate it as an aspect of the decade and unable to appreciate the overall '90s look in the animated series.

Posted by ngroove
@Death Certificate said:
You could have mentioned how they portraded some of the villians a tad too stupid, old people being to Senile, vulture and slivermane having the same goals, overuse of the transdimensional portal/  neogenic recombinator and also how horrible the green goblin was. If I didn't read the comics, I would still think he's a corny-ass rip-off of the hobgoblin. I agree with all points but wouldn't say it was all bad, I would say that anything after half of season 3 was bad. 
    "


Silvermane: read Amazing Spider-Man #73-75, whether in original form, Marvel Tales, Masterworks, or Essential 
 
Vulture: read Amazing Spider-Man #386-387, maybe #388 too, but definetely the first two parts, which much of TAS Vulture's first two-parter was inspired from, although the "tablet of time" is a convenient story-plot tie.
  
Green Goblin:  I'm sure any kid whose loved Spider-Man enough, including those who got reading into his comics from his animated series, found their way into reading the comics.  I myself, knew of Green Goblin's existence, aswell as got into Spider-Man's comics, by June 1995, some months before he got into the show.
Edited by OminousFlare

The way I see it, there are two different set of Spider-Fans:
1) The ones who feel Spidey's true place belongs to the "Amazing Spider-Man" series rather than all the spin-offs and Ultimate whatnot
2) The ones who see Spider-Man as a symbol that could be reincarnated in various forms, whether as Ben Reilly, Spider-Man Noir, or Ultimate Spider-Man.
 
I'd believe the second group of individuals might be the ones who see "The Spectacular Spider-Man" animated as a masterpiece of some sort, while dissing it out at the '90s animated series. Whereas, on the other hand, the first group would probably see TAS as a comic book come alive, staying as true to the ASM comic as the production crew's resources allowed it to, while seeing Spec as a blatant form of Alternate Universe Spider-Man.
 
Because, let's be honest with ourselves here, there are several points to show that Spec clearly looks and feels different from the Peter Parker we knew and love from the old days, back in the 60s/70s/80s, from the adolescent appearance crafted for realism to their voices not fitting their characters suitably at all (in fact, all the hype over Josh Keaton and the respective VAs in Spec came from their fanboyism of the great storyline, nothing to do with the voices) to the alteration of the costumes to Dr. Octopussy being more of a wimp than he originally was to Gwen not looking like Gwen to Mary Jane being a jailbait to the characters' funny-looking eyes to... Sigh. I rest my case.
 
And speaking of voices, I tried convincing myself that Spec might not be that bad a watch, with its incredible storyline, but as I sat through the first episode just now, as I listened to Josh Keaton's kiddish voice, my mind kept tracing back to how both Peter Parker and Spider-Man looked like in his highschool days in the comics. And then, I tried fitting that image with Keaton's voice. It was a horrible experience. I just couldn't imagine the macho Spidey with that kind of voice.
 
And then there was yesterday, when I tried listening to the Black Cat's voice in BehindTheVoiceActors.com. It was like it was playtime with Spider-Man, I don't know what's going on, and that's definitely a poor choice of voice for the Black Cat I read in ASM #194. Again, I tried fitting that voice on the comic book counterpart, and I see an adolescent girl jumping around in a cat suit, pretending to be a passionate adult filled with love and lust. Sure, her lines worked, but her overall image and outlook... terrible.

Posted by InnerVenom123
@OminousFlare said:
" The way I see it, there are two different set of Spider-Fans:
1) The ones who feel Spidey's true place belongs to the "Amazing Spider-Man" series rather than all the spin-offs and Ultimate whatnot
2) The ones who see Spider-Man as a symbol that could be reincarnated in various forms, whether as Ben Reilly, Spider-Man Noir, or Ultimate Spider-Man.
 
I'd believe the second group of individuals might be the ones who see "The Spectacular Spider-Man" animated as a masterpiece of some sort, while dissing it out at the '90s animated series. Whereas, on the other hand, the first group would probably see TAS as a comic book come alive, staying as true to the ASM comic as the production crew's resources allowed it to, while seeing Spec as a blatant form of Alternate Universe Spider-Man.
 
Because, let's be honest with ourselves here, there are several points to show that Spec clearly looks and feels different from the Peter Parker we knew and love from the old days, back in the 60s/70s/80s, from the adolescent appearance crafted for realism to their voices not fitting their characters suitably at all (in fact, all the hype over Josh Keaton and the respective VAs in Spec came from their fanboyism of the great storyline, nothing to do with the voices) to the alteration of the costumes to Dr. Octopussy being more of a wimp than he originally was to Gwen not looking like Gwen to Mary Jane being a jailbait to the characters' funny-looking eyes to... Sigh. I rest my case.  And speaking of voices, I tried convincing myself that Spec might not be that bad a watch, with its incredible storyline, but as I sat through the first episode just now, as I listened to Josh Keaton's kiddish voice, my mind kept tracing back to how both Peter Parker and Spider-Man looked like in his highschool days in the comics. And then, I tried fitting that image with Keaton's voice. It was a horrible experience. I just couldn't imagine the macho Spidey with that kind of voice. "
So, Otto being a wimp before going batsh!t insane(and obviously, he stops being a wimp at this point)... Gwen being changed and eventually looking very similar to her comic form (minus the headband and the ... boots and what not), and Mary Jane being hot, like yknow, Mary Jane is supposed to be.... to "funny looking eyes" ..... that is your case?
 
Weak.
Edited by OminousFlare
@InnerVenom123:
Erm, you forgot about Gwen's glasses, genius. You know, the biggest, most significant thing that make Gwen not look like Gwen? That she looks like a bookworm, front of the class anti-social nerdbrain? Remember that what made the original Gwen so cool was that she was the first of the 'cool kids' to actually like Peter Parker. Not Flash, not Harry, Gwen. That's what made her so cool, because for the first time, a popular girl who looks like she's supposed to do cheerleading took a liking to Peter Parker. Weak? I think not. 
 
And yes, Octopus being a wimp in the first place is my case, because people had problems with Electro's origin in TAS as well, so I thought I should bring up Octo's origin in Spec, too. Octavius was an egoistical maniac who got into an accident because of his pride, not because someone bullied him into it. Making him sympathetic in this case is really anti-climatic.
 
And wow, instead of trying to defend my case, you actually just dropped it off with a comment your smug of a brain seemed to think of as so revolutionary a remark. I must've really creamed you there. 
 
So, let's see, what else. Ah yes, Mary Jane, the girl too hot for Peter Parker. I don't have a problem with Mary Jane's appearance in Spec. Otherwise, I wouldn't have called her a jailbait. I would've called her what I labeled Kirsten Dunst in the Spider-Man movies - fugly. As in fucking ugly. No. My problem with MJ in Spec is that she looks too young, and the hot-factor is both awkward and unsuitable for a girl her appearance, hence the term, 'jailbait.' TAS didn't do a very good job for Mary Jane, either, but at least she seemed old enough to spend a night over with Peter wearing a rubber. Being 16, should 'sex' be a subject for the Spider-Man comics? God, no. But what makes Mary Jane Mary Jane was her hot-factor back in the '60s, how she seemed too good to be true for Peter Parker (and still is now, in the modern day). Spec failed to establish that kind of image we've all seen back then, and failed to give us the kind of feeling we felt when we first laid our eyes on the super-spicy MJ in those early days of Peter Parker.
 
Being able to so successfully establish the same kind of mystery factor the Green Goblin had, I'm surprised Spec failed on this department. Then again, the identity revealed in Spec isn't that breathtaking anyway.
 
Okay, last but not the least, the funny eyes, Gawd, the horrible funny eyes. This one, I'd like to pair it with another flaw of the show, which is the overall animation. I don't know why the team chose to make the whole darn show look so... just plain weird. It's not the superb graphics we see in the MTV series or Ultimate Alliance. It's not the clean and sleek classic 1-D animation we see in TAS. It's definitely not live action. So why make Spec look so, cartoonish? I mean, the least they could do is incorporate some of the art styles as seen in the comics (preferably the classic style of the comics, not the over-exaggerated style of the modern age). And the funny eyes really bothered me a lot. I can't take those visages seriously.
 
I mean it's WEIRD AS FUCK! Those f-king eyes! Gawd I can't stand it! LoL It's like staring into a black hole, or staring into the eyeholes of somebody who just had his eye sockets burned out by the Ghost Rider.
 
Ah yes, before I forgot. It seems like you ignored my point about the voices for some reason. In fact, many people who I've went against while criticizing Spec seemed to ignore my points about CDB and Spec's choice of voices. Do I see a pattern here?
Posted by InnerVenom123
@OminousFlare said:
" @InnerVenom123:Erm, you forgot about Gwen's glasses, genius. You know, the biggest, most significant thing that make Gwen not look like Gwen? That she looks like a bookworm, front of the class anti-social nerdbrain? Remember that what made the original Gwen so cool was that she was the first of the 'cool kids' to actually like Peter Parker. Not Flash, not Harry, Gwen. That's what made her so cool, because for the first time, a popular girl who looks like she's supposed to do cheerleading took a liking to Peter Parker. Weak? I think not.   "
She loses that look and gets a makeover in Season 2. 
 
@OminousFlare said:
" @InnerVenom123:   And yes, Octopus being a wimp in the first place is my case, because people had problems with Electro's origin in TAS as well, so I thought I should bring up Octo's origin in Spec, too. Octavius was an egoistical maniac who got into an accident because of his pride, not because someone bullied him into it. Making him sympathetic in this case is really anti-climatic. "
 Point taken.
 
@OminousFlare said:
" @InnerVenom123: And wow, instead of trying to defend my case, you actually just dropped it off with a comment your smug of a brain seemed to think of as so revolutionary a remark. I must've really creamed you there.    "
Take the stick out your ass, I was kidding :P
 
@OminousFlare said:
" @InnerVenom123: So, let's see, what else. Ah yes, Mary Jane, the girl too hot for Peter Parker. I don't have a problem with Mary Jane's appearance in Spec. Otherwise, I wouldn't have called her a jailbait. I would've called her what I labeled Kirsten Dunst in the Spider-Man movies - fugly. As in fucking ugly. No. My problem with MJ in Spec is that she looks too young, and the hot-factor is both awkward and unsuitable for a girl her appearance, hence the term, 'jailbait.' TAS didn't do a very good job for Mary Jane, either, but at least she seemed old enough to spend a night over with Peter wearing a rubber. Being 16, should 'sex' be a subject for the Spider-Man comics? God, no. But what makes Mary Jane Mary Jane was her hot-factor back in the '60s, how she seemed too good to be true for Peter Parker (and still is now, in the modern day). Spec failed to establish that kind of image we've all seen back then, and failed to give us the kind of feeling we felt when we first laid our eyes on the super-spicy MJ in those early days of Peter Parker.  Being able to so successfully establish the same kind of mystery factor the Green Goblin had, I'm surprised Spec failed on this department. Then again, the identity revealed in Spec isn't that breathtaking anyway.  "
Thank you for hating Kirsten Dunst. I seriously hate her.
 
She was too cool for him in the show. And she can't be hot by Peter's point of view? He's a teenager. How can that subject not pop up?
 
@OminousFlare said:
" @InnerVenom123:  Okay, last but not the least, the funny eyes, Gawd, the horrible funny eyes. This one, I'd like to pair it with another flaw of the show, which is the overall animation. I don't know why the team chose to make the whole darn show look so... just plain weird. It's not the superb graphics we see in the MTV series or Ultimate Alliance. It's not the clean and sleek classic 1-D animation we see in TAS. It's definitely not live action. So why make Spec look so, cartoonish? I mean, the least they could do is incorporate some of the art styles as seen in the comics (preferably the classic style of the comics, not the over-exaggerated style of the modern age). And the funny eyes really bothered me a lot. I can't take those visages seriously.  I mean it's WEIRD AS FUCK! Those f-king eyes! Gawd I can't stand it! LoL It's like staring into a black hole, or staring into the eyeholes of somebody who just had his eye sockets burned out by the Ghost Rider.  Ah yes, before I forgot. It seems like you ignored my point about the voices for some reason. In fact, many people who I've went against while criticizing Spec seemed to ignore my points about CDB and Spec's choice of voices. Do I see a pattern here? "

You're thinking of character designs. Animation is the movement of the characters, and in Spec, it was great. That's why they made them look simpler, so it would be easy to animate. 
 
Oh, and the voices are personal preference, so there's nothing I can really say to that.
Posted by Larkin1388

I liked the show. I've never been a hardcore fan of Spiderman, but it wasn't a bad show. Although X-Men the Animated Series was way better.

Posted by PrinceIMC

I'd rather have a 'just okay' spider-man animated series than no spider-man series. I accept that they change things in cartoons all the time. I do get frustrated when people don't know the comics and only know their information from the cartoon. 'Y'mean Electro wasn't Red Skull's kid in the comics?" Hell no. "Didn't Mary Jane get replaced with a clone made of water?" HELL NO!
Edited by OminousFlare
@InnerVenom123 said:

You're thinking of character designs. Animation is the movement of the characters, and in Spec, it was great. That's why they made them look simpler, so it would be easy to animate.

Yeah, the character designs. Don't get me wrong, I love what the writers have done to the show, but... the art is important, or in this case, the design. It's just as important as the plot. It's like, the flesh covering the muscles and meat. With the designs looking this 'simple' (as you put it), I'm just somewhat perturbed by what I see. Cartoons and Comics are visual mediums, so the outlook is a major factor.
 
But I'm not as much affected by the design as the voices. But enough of that. You're right about it being a personal preference. Just kinda disappointed at how young Josh Keaton sounds like, I guess.
 
 

@InnerVenom123

said:

She was too cool for him in the show. And she can't be hot by Peter's point of view? He's a teenager. How can that subject not pop up?

That actually sounds more like Gwen Stacy than MJ, if you ask me.
 
 @PrinceIMC said:

I do get frustrated when people don't know the comics and only know their information from the cartoon. 'Y'mean Electro wasn't Red Skull's kid in the comics?" Hell no. "Didn't Mary Jane get replaced with a clone made of water?" HELL NO! "

 Yeah, I feel you on that one. It can be rather frustrating when people are putting something down because of a lack of information. The old Transformers animated series that was overshadowed by Micheal CGI Bay is a good example.
Posted by LikeableZombie

As a kid I loved this show so much. Watched it ALL the time, but now I just can't seem to enjoy it as much as I do 'Batman: The Animated Series'. God I love that show.

Posted by ngroove
@OminousFlare:
Kirsten Dunst...is ugly?????
Posted by batmanboy11

Its just like the X-Men show from the '90s. They've aged terribly, but I'll love and enjoy them forever.
Posted by darth_spidey195
@OminousFlare said:

" I thought that looked pretty well for someone who later spawned a Carnage symbiotic which is red in color.
 
So, anyway, for the sake of ranting, I'm just going to copy-paste something I wrote in another forum:
 Spectacular's script was right on the spot, but I never really gotten to like how they made slight alterations to certain artistic aspects that made Spec look more like a spin-off like Ultimate Spidey is to Amazing. Gwen's glasses for example. And then there was the Goblin outfit, of which its color tones look like the original Goblin outfit, but is never as true to it as the '90s version. And then there are several animation aspects that make the overall look feel... different, whether it's the way Peter or MJ look (more preteen-ized), their eyes being more cartoonish than ever, or, the biggest problem I have, how the outfits of several other villains (Doc Ock and Electro, just to name a few) look more upgraded. Like Raimi's Spidey organic webbing upgraded.

Hammerhead is the only one that looks better than his '90s incarnations, without a doubt, and Silver Sable looks great, too. And the scripting is, once again, very polished and decent (contrary to the outfits, the jokes are a welcoming upgrade). But somehow, it doesn't feel like the old first hundred issues of Amazing Spider-Man I have read. As I said, it feels more like Ultimate Spidey, or the first 10 or 12 issues of Untold Tales of Spider-Man, especially with how much 'younger' and 'kiddier' the animation has been set to.

But alas, I grew up in the '90s, so my favorite incarnation is a natural one. TAS has some problems, but I'm just as amazed (pardon the pun) at how it also managed to fit those little comic book references and 'wink-winks' in the series when I watch it in my current age, just as the '67 Spider-Man series had. I'm sure Spectacular also have this, but with the reasons given above, Spec to TAS feels like Nolan's Batman compared to Burton's. It's all about the atmosphere. 
 
Regarding Spider-Man not hitting anyone in the show. To be fair, Spider-Man is not exactly the strongest superhero in the Marvel universe. Besides, it's not the Spider-Man we're watching/reading for, it's the Peter Parker. And I felt the characterization was decently done.
 
The Hydro Man arc never really interested me. He feels like a punk to me more than a villain. So, it was a poor choice. The reason they couldn't use Sandman, btw, was because he was gonna be used in a canceled James Cameron Spider-Man movie, along with Electro and, I presume, Gwen Stacy.
 
Consider this: Given what they had to handle with, with the studio barking at them not to include adult stuff (not sure whether if Spec is just as censored), they get an A for effort. Yes, I got annoyed at the lack of punches, too, but if anything, he was definitely not shown to be a wimp. Want to know why? If you refer to my answer and refute to your point about Spider-Man incompetence, I wrote that Spider-Man is not the strongest superhero in the Marvel universe. Now, what did I mean by that, I wonder? Maybe because he's also Peter Parker, Science Genius, not to mention having a lot of BRAINS to work with than brawn.

If you notice throughout the series, Spidey often worked out the problems with his brain. Like when he led the Secret Wars as a leader. Or when he solved the whole time-dimensional accelerator problem The Spot had (Kingpin: "Spider-Man is a scientist?!"). Or how about the Spider Slayers arc, when he clogged the Black Widow's jet-engines with web-fluid, or when he, in the second-half of that arc, used liquid oxygen to remove the bomb attached to his wrist (among other wise moves). Or how about he defeated DORMAMMU himself (with Venom and Iron Man's distractions, yes, but like I wrote, he's the brains of this operation) by closing up the portal with, once again, his scientific knowhow. Or how about... ah, you get the point.

In fact, when reading the old ASM comics (and please do note that I am referring to the old 184 issues of ASM here), I realized just how weak Spidey can be when battling real villains, only lucking out, have an over-egoistical villain, or using his brains to achieve the ultimate victory. That's what's so 'amazing' about Spider-Man, that he is, time and time again, able to beat the bad guys without using pure strength. For he is... THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN! (And yes, I hadtta say that) And don't go telling me that raw strength makes Spider-Man amazing. What makes Iron Man 'Invincible?' It's not his armor, clearly. It's his heart. And what makes a monstrous thing like The Hulk 'Incredible?' It's his everlasting struggle to be consumed by his bloodlust for rage, anger. I think it's rather true to form here that Spider-Man is not doing a lot of fighting more than thinking. But you can't say he never fought a villain before in this show, or that he never got in a fight on his own before. Remember Venom in the first season?

One problem, I'll admit, is the number of superhero cameos. I think the creators were so eager to focus on the 'team-up' aspect of Spider-Man that he was left seemingly upstaged, perhaps to show how many friends he has in the Superhero world.

Also, I really love the co-stars of the other superheroes that teamed up with Spidey (a nice wink to Marvel Team-Up). And Venom was just badass compared to Spec's version, having even adapted the anti-hero aspect of Venom. Yes, the '90s retconned Venom was a poor choice, but blame the adapted material, not the adaptation for being true to form. At least the whole 'attaining the black suit' story was altered to a more realistic form. And I felt they made it really fun by including the three lamest villains of all and made them cool, The Spot, The Rocket Racer, and even (dare I say it) The Big Wheel, even to the part where he couldn't pull a brake on the mechanical wheel (I lol'd).

Finally, I don't really like 'spins' of any kind on Spider-Man. Spider-Man's original material is good enough. Don't alter Electro's classic costume (yes, they later changed the origin of Electro, this is due to the canceled 'James Cameron movie' I mentioned above, but I don't really mind this one much because they kept the original costume). Don't change the way Green Goblin looks. You might as well change the way Spider-Man looks (oops, too late for that).

Alas, there are quite a few things I don't like about TAS myself as well, most of which include the abovementioned censoring problems, but until something that could top the 'comic comes alive' look in TAS, I'm gonna stick with the '90s, for now. I don't have high hopes for Disney's Ultimate, considering I don't really prefer the comic over ASM.
 
Lastly, regarding Josh Keaton. I like how Christopher Daniel Barnes made Spider-Man seem like a potential senior hero in the superhero career, especially in his voicing of Spider-Man Noir in Shattered Dimensions. Josh Keaton's Ultimate Spidey sounded like he's still a grasshopper GreenHorn in the career, which is fine for USM, but CDB's version is suitable for the Spider-Man that is today, when he's grown up and married in his middle age (or 23-25, whatever).

Even in the series, he didn't sound exactly like so young you couldn't take Spider-Man seriously. I thought the whole point of Marvel superheroes being amazed that Spider-Man is a kid is probably because 1) he don't act like one in serious moments, 2) he doesn't have the physique of a teenager, and 3) he sounds older than he looks. But the last one is really a theory, because you can't listen to comics (unless you count those audio-comics back in the day).
 
One more personal note from myself that's not copy-pasted: I don't understand why people could appreciate the classic 1967 Spider-Man animated series, overlooking its much more corny sound effects and campy but vintage graphics, but still be bothered by the cheesy laser sound effects in the '90s series, unable to appreciate it as an aspect of the decade and unable to appreciate the overall '90s look in the animated series. "

@OminousFlare said:

" @InnerVenom123:Erm, you forgot about Gwen's glasses, genius. You know, the biggest, most significant thing that make Gwen not look like Gwen? That she looks like a bookworm, front of the class anti-social nerdbrain? Remember that what made the original Gwen so cool was that she was the first of the 'cool kids' to actually like Peter Parker. Not Flash, not Harry, Gwen. That's what made her so cool, because for the first time, a popular girl who looks like she's supposed to do cheerleading took a liking to Peter Parker. Weak? I think not.   And yes, Octopus being a wimp in the first place is my case, because people had problems with Electro's origin in TAS as well, so I thought I should bring up Octo's origin in Spec, too. Octavius was an egoistical maniac who got into an accident because of his pride, not because someone bullied him into it. Making him sympathetic in this case is really anti-climatic. And wow, instead of trying to defend my case, you actually just dropped it off with a comment your smug of a brain seemed to think of as so revolutionary a remark. I must've really creamed you there.   So, let's see, what else. Ah yes, Mary Jane, the girl too hot for Peter Parker. I don't have a problem with Mary Jane's appearance in Spec. Otherwise, I wouldn't have called her a jailbait. I would've called her what I labeled Kirsten Dunst in the Spider-Man movies - fugly. As in fucking ugly. No. My problem with MJ in Spec is that she looks too young, and the hot-factor is both awkward and unsuitable for a girl her appearance, hence the term, 'jailbait.' TAS didn't do a very good job for Mary Jane, either, but at least she seemed old enough to spend a night over with Peter wearing a rubber. Being 16, should 'sex' be a subject for the Spider-Man comics? God, no. But what makes Mary Jane Mary Jane was her hot-factor back in the '60s, how she seemed too good to be true for Peter Parker (and still is now, in the modern day). Spec failed to establish that kind of image we've all seen back then, and failed to give us the kind of feeling we felt when we first laid our eyes on the super-spicy MJ in those early days of Peter Parker.  Being able to so successfully establish the same kind of mystery factor the Green Goblin had, I'm surprised Spec failed on this department. Then again, the identity revealed in Spec isn't that breathtaking anyway.  Okay, last but not the least, the funny eyes, Gawd, the horrible funny eyes. This one, I'd like to pair it with another flaw of the show, which is the overall animation. I don't know why the team chose to make the whole darn show look so... just plain weird. It's not the superb graphics we see in the MTV series or Ultimate Alliance. It's not the clean and sleek classic 1-D animation we see in TAS. It's definitely not live action. So why make Spec look so, cartoonish? I mean, the least they could do is incorporate some of the art styles as seen in the comics (preferably the classic style of the comics, not the over-exaggerated style of the modern age). And the funny eyes really bothered me a lot. I can't take those visages seriously.  I mean it's WEIRD AS FUCK! Those f-king eyes! Gawd I can't stand it! LoL It's like staring into a black hole, or staring into the eyeholes of somebody who just had his eye sockets burned out by the Ghost Rider.  Ah yes, before I forgot. It seems like you ignored my point about the voices for some reason. In fact, many people who I've went against while criticizing Spec seemed to ignore my points about CDB and Spec's choice of voices. Do I see a pattern here? "

 You know, when I posted this under my old username, I seriously didn't think I'd get something like THIS.
 
That said, I stand by my views.
  A couple of counterarguments, for what little it's worth:
 
 1. I like Josh Keaton's spider-man.  He's my favorite one, actually.  I also like the designs of the Spectacular Spider-Man show.  The thing is, I think the 90s show voice actor was...OK, I suppose, but you HAVE to admit the dialogue was...bad.   Very, very bad.  I've seen episodes of that show, obviously, and it wasn't pretty.  
2. I don't mind character redesigns.  In Spectacular Spider-Man, yes, Green Goblin looks different, but the changes are trivial.  You can tell that it's obviously still the Green Goblin.  Same with Doc Ock.  Of course the outfit is different, but A: his costumes have always been terrible, and B: You still know it's Doc Ock.  And also, I like most of Spidey's alternate costumes.  Come on, we all know he'll always return to the red and blue eventually. I see nothing wrong with a brief departure from the norm.
3. I'm not against redesigns, and you seem to be, so I suspect therein lies part of the problem.  I like the redesigned costumes (for the most part) and the organic webbing is never something I've minded.  On the grounds of which is better: Organic or Web-Shooter?  I am truth be told, kind of impartial.   And for a guy who hates redesigns, you were pretty welcoming of the fact that Venom was half blue and half red.
4. While it's true I like seeing Webs solve problems with his brain, he does that plenty of times in SS too.  Like when he takes down Sandman for instance.  He'd used a nice even mix of brains and brawn.  He did the same thing with Electro, (again, I like the redesign), Lizard, Shocker, and Venom.
5. While it's true that Doc Ock is changed in SS (and he's not the only one either), it's aspects of his personality that are slightly altered.  With Electro's change in the 90s show, they didn't just change part of his personality, they made him Red Skull's son, for pete's sake.  It's horrible.  Nothing can possibly convince me that that was a smart move. It's like passing Joker off as Lex Luthor's brother.
6. How can you say the subject of sex appeal is inappropriate for a 16-year old boy who is undoubtedly going through puberty?  Trust me, at his age, those are EXACTLY the kind of things that would be going through his head. Especially when a pretty girl is staring him down.
7. I disagree about your belief that the Josh Keaton fanboyism (I should know, I am one of his fans) is based solely on the stories and not the voice acting.  The voice acting is again, as I stated fine, in my book.  Keep in mind, not everyone thinks a character sounds the same way, so "imagining that voice while reading a comic" may work for you, but for me, Spidey may just sound a little different.  I think that Josh Keaton is a great Spider-Man and I stand by that belief.  
8. I like both Amazing Spider-Man and any reinterpretations of the characters that may come around (the better ones anyway), so I can appreciate any tributes to the comics.  Once again though, these things are not absent from SS.  Several scenes in the show are straight-up homages to famous Amazing Spider-Man covers.  There's an episode dedicated to John Jameson as Colonel Jupiter, (that's pretty far back as far as Spidey history goes) and finally, a whole scene from the show is taken right from the comic (with a few changes, but...)
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttks8iAfnog
 
How's that for a reference?
 
And again, I fail to see how his voice is bad.  I think it's great.
 
9. About Gwen's glasses, and overall character change, it was to make her come across as more of an ideal soulmate for Peter, who he ironically ignores in favor of Liz half the time.  I liked it.  I think it made her more interesting instead of just making her this kind of bland model character.  I've always found Gwen to be infinitely more important as Peter's greatest failure.  His Jason Todd or Bucky Barnes if you would.  Here on the show, I actually care about whether she lives or dies.  Never felt that way with the comics.
 
Again, You obviously have your loyalties, and I can certainly respect that, given how you made some pretty damn impressive counterarguments.  But I still feel that Spectacular Spider-Man is a superior show, and I have my reasons for that.
 
As it is, I've kind of mellowed done since posting this and changing accounts and all.
Posted by OminousFlare
@darth_spidey195:
1. Yes, the dialogues were bad, but that has nothing to do with the VA's voice. But, I have to give Keaton some credits as well. After contemplating, and after someone reminded me that Spectacular was based on Peter's early high school days, I guess his young voice justify Peter's age accurately, and there wasn't much fault in that portrayal. Nevertheless, CDB still did a fine job in voicing both his quips and his dramatic moments. Scripting issues aside, Barnes knew how to manipulate his voice to different situations effectively, and his voice is especially pleasant to listen to in the scenes with Spidey (probably because Spider-Man is naturally more sprightly than Emo Pete). Whether it's soft depressive tones with sympathy for his Aunt May or deep, sore-throat harsh tones when he donned the black suit and turned violently insane (BEST. SCENES. EVER, in the whole show), CDB scored it well very effectively.
 
Not to be one-sided, I have also wrote (above) that Keaton's voice suits very well for the Ultimate Spider-Man incarnation, especially as a newbie hero both ASM/USM Spidey was in the early days. It just gets kinda weird when I see a fully grown adult Spider-Man in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 with his voice. *shrugs* I guess it does differ with each comic reader's views on Spider-Man's character, because I always saw him as a more serious hero with humor thrown into it. Like a child acting like a child-sounding adult... if that makes any sense. I mean, he's Spider-Man, so when he says things like, "I won't let you kill that man!" while saying things like, "Oh, gee, Chuckles, ya think ya could be any louder than Alicia Keys?" I feel that CDB's voice was able to sound like a grown man who could still have some childish humor to him.
 
Oh, and before I forgot: 
@ngroove:
Yes, she was ugly. :P But once again, that's to each reader's opinion. Like I wrote: Denise. Richards. Just compare their faces. ('70s incarnation of MJ). Nevertheless, I respect Raimi's filmmaking taste. He wanted to make MJ a 'girl next door' rather than 'dumb party girl that's more than meets the eye,' and I understand that.
 
Anyway, where was I.

2. It's not horrible. It's vintage. Like Afro Hair and Go-Go Boots. Spectacular's Doc Ock is based on Spider-Man 2's Alfred Molina's modernized Doc Ock (in terms of appearance anyway), not the classic vintage Doc Ock. But no, I'm not a nostalgic fool. I understand the need to modernize things. TAS did this properly with Chameleon and I have no complains, especially when they added the espionage aspect. It's Octo's personality that I am irked about. Different is good when done passionately. (On an unrelated note) Different is bad when it's done for the sake of being different (note the reboot Spider-Man costume). In Spectacular's case, however, I understand where they were going with Octavius' personality, so at least they tried. I felt sympathy at some point, too. But, like I wrote, it's anti-climatic and wasn't what made Octavius Octaviusly awesome. Not to mention somewhat contrived. A mad scientist who was an egomaniac from the start vs. a sympathetic doctor who became mad by accident? I think I've made my case.
 
Hm. Octaviusly.
 
3. Well, I don't know. Venom wasn't really redesigned to the point where it would be so obvious to notice the red-and-blue shades, considering they are existed only on the outlines of his body. His symbiotic suit was still full black. I only really noticed that in a screenshot my media center acquired, on a still-frame. But, at the least, they kept his scary-face. With Spectacular's 'simplistic' animation, it's hard to achieve the same gritty appearance. Tell me if this resembles the monstrous, demonic creature you knew in the '90s.
 
No, I actually don't hate the organic web-shooters that much. I only used it as an example. I prefer the organic ones, actually. Spider-Man without natural spider webs just sound weird to me, even though I know the reason why Stan 'The Man' Lee didn't put it in (his anal)... *awkward silence* Yeah... had to say anal. Anal.
 
4. Yes, Spider-Man was more brains than brawn in TAS, and that somewhat bugged me (pardon the pun) as well. But, like you towards the web-shooters issue, I'm impartial towards this as well, because of the reasons I've given. Spidey is more brains than brawn. Just kinda hoped that the censorship department didn't take over so much like a baaaaaad diarrhea. Ah well, that's the era I grew up in. Sue me.
 
5. I still haven't gotten to that Electro arc in my rewatch... and I personally don't anticipate to from people's descriptions of Electro - if not for The Red Skull's appearance. Still, didn't he make Electro outta the Super Soldier Serum or something? I have no clue, but if it is, it's not that so bad a move that makes it the utterly most horrendous move in the whole history of Spidey. That mantle belongs to Joe Q. At least Electro's story has some very lowly amount of redeeming values.
 
6. Yeah, I forgot how the exposure to sex in the American media is much more than the amount of exposure we get in Asian media... (no, that's not the reason why we have small dicks... which we don't) Not that it's a bad thing, of course. I mean, who doesn't love sex. Yipee. (Not being sarcastic.)
 
7. Well, I've explained what my view of Spidey is like in regards to CDB's voice in Point 1, so maybe you could care to explain yours as well. :D Because all I got is that Keaton makes a good young Spidey. I don't know.
 
8. I didn't say they were absent, btw. I mentioned that "I'm sure Spectacular also have this."
 
And again, like many Keaton's fans, you haven't explained why his voice is so great, where I've even went on to explain why I find Keaton's voice was... well, decently portrayed. :P
 
9. Whoa, didja just take a lash on the comics? Far out. :P
 
I'll admit, Gwen kinda acted like a Marcy Kane, April (forgot her last name, reporter in the Daily Globe), and Cissy Ironwood... Waitaminute. What am I saying!? She isn't anything like those bitches! Admit it. There was a special scent around her personality when you first read about Gwen Stacy. It's #31, which is around the time Steve Ditko was around, so I wasn't surprised. Ditko probably came up with the character for all we know, and there's a lot of originality in Gwen that's not contrived (c'mon, it's the late 1960s). She was the popular kid who was not a bitch. A popular kid that's actually human? Far out.
 
But yes, her Mary-Sue establishment was an obstructing factor... and it would soon be rendered as not that unique as well later. Writing a perfect character is easy. But back in around #31 or so, in Peter's high school (or college?) days when he was kicked around by bullies? She was a whole entire attraction booth on her own.
 
I'd also agree that the best thing about her was her demise, but not in the way you put it. The best thing about her was not because she was Peter's biggest failure, but because her death was the daring ravage of the pure. If "The Night Gwen Stacy" died were to occur in the gritty '90s, she would've been raped. 
 
Nevertheless, I'm not putting down Spectacular's Gwen through these statements, but rather, trying to point out that the comic Gwen wasn't that bad, just as how I was trying to point out the '90s TAS wasn't that horrendous. But I digress. I noticed the whole Liz and Gwen relationship that occurred in Spec myself, too, and I loved it when I first watched it, too. Like I wrote, I have no problems with the script. The design has nothing to do with the script - nor do the characters. The characters do build up the script, but you could have anyone else playing out a hard-to-get act Spec Gwen tried to pull in the cartoon just as well. Get Mary Jane to do it. Make her the geek and nerd. Now that will be a change we never expected. Of course, there's the whole "different can be good and bad" argument all over again...
 
10. I think there was an article in ComicVine ("Is The Hulk the strongest of'em all?") where someone commented, "I love how people would compare how one thing is better than the other. Those are the people I label as 'fanboys'." Now, I am blatantly not the best representative to quote that, but I think it is fair to say that you can't really put a score to outrank either TAS or Spectacular. Each were created in different times, as were the '67 Spider-Man animated series.
Posted by Darth-Spidey
@OminousFlare said:

" @darth_spidey195:
1. Yes, the dialogues were bad, but that has nothing to do with the VA's voice. But, I have to give Keaton some credits as well. After contemplating, and after someone reminded me that Spectacular was based on Peter's early high school days, I guess his young voice justify Peter's age accurately, and there wasn't much fault in that portrayal. Nevertheless, CDB still did a fine job in voicing both his quips and his dramatic moments. Scripting issues aside, Barnes knew how to manipulate his voice to different situations effectively, and his voice is especially pleasant to listen to in the scenes with Spidey (probably because Spider-Man is naturally more sprightly than Emo Pete). Whether it's soft depressive tones with sympathy for his Aunt May or deep, sore-throat harsh tones when he donned the black suit and turned violently insane (BEST. SCENES. EVER, in the whole show), CDB scored it well very effectively.
 
Not to be one-sided, I have also wrote (above) that Keaton's voice suits very well for the Ultimate Spider-Man incarnation, especially as a newbie hero both ASM/USM Spidey was in the early days. It just gets kinda weird when I see a fully grown adult Spider-Man in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 with his voice. *shrugs* I guess it does differ with each comic reader's views on Spider-Man's character, because I always saw him as a more serious hero with humor thrown into it. Like a child acting like a child-sounding adult... if that makes any sense. I mean, he's Spider-Man, so when he says things like, "I won't let you kill that man!" while saying things like, "Oh, gee, Chuckles, ya think ya could be any louder than Alicia Keys?" I feel that CDB's voice was able to sound like a grown man who could still have some childish humor to him.
 
Oh, and before I forgot: 
@ngroove:
Yes, she was ugly. :P But once again, that's to each reader's opinion. Like I wrote: Denise. Richards. Just compare their faces. ('70s incarnation of MJ). Nevertheless, I respect Raimi's filmmaking taste. He wanted to make MJ a 'girl next door' rather than 'dumb party girl that's more than meets the eye,' and I understand that.
 
Anyway, where was I.

2. It's not horrible. It's vintage. Like Afro Hair and Go-Go Boots. Spectacular's Doc Ock is based on Spider-Man 2's Alfred Molina's modernized Doc Ock (in terms of appearance anyway), not the classic vintage Doc Ock. But no, I'm not a nostalgic fool. I understand the need to modernize things. TAS did this properly with Chameleon and I have no complains, especially when they added the espionage aspect. It's Octo's personality that I am irked about. Different is good when done passionately. (On an unrelated note) Different is bad when it's done for the sake of being different (note the reboot Spider-Man costume). In Spectacular's case, however, I understand where they were going with Octavius' personality, so at least they tried. I felt sympathy at some point, too. But, like I wrote, it's anti-climatic and wasn't what made Octavius Octaviusly awesome. Not to mention somewhat contrived. A mad scientist who was an egomaniac from the start vs. a sympathetic doctor who became mad by accident? I think I've made my case.
 
Hm. Octaviusly.
 
3. Well, I don't know. Venom wasn't really redesigned to the point where it would be so obvious to notice the red-and-blue shades, considering they are existed only on the outlines of his body. His symbiotic suit was still full black. I only really noticed that in a screenshot my media center acquired, on a still-frame. But, at the least, they kept his scary-face. With Spectacular's 'simplistic' animation, it's hard to achieve the same gritty appearance. Tell me if this resembles the monstrous, demonic creature you knew in the '90s.
 
No, I actually don't hate the organic web-shooters that much. I only used it as an example. I prefer the organic ones, actually. Spider-Man without natural spider webs just sound weird to me, even though I know the reason why Stan 'The Man' Lee didn't put it in (his anal)... *awkward silence* Yeah... had to say anal. Anal.
 
4. Yes, Spider-Man was more brains than brawn in TAS, and that somewhat bugged me (pardon the pun) as well. But, like you towards the web-shooters issue, I'm impartial towards this as well, because of the reasons I've given. Spidey is more brains than brawn. Just kinda hoped that the censorship department didn't take over so much like a baaaaaad diarrhea. Ah well, that's the era I grew up in. Sue me.
 
5. I still haven't gotten to that Electro arc in my rewatch... and I personally don't anticipate to from people's descriptions of Electro - if not for The Red Skull's appearance. Still, didn't he make Electro outta the Super Soldier Serum or something? I have no clue, but if it is, it's not that so bad a move that makes it the utterly most horrendous move in the whole history of Spidey. That mantle belongs to Joe Q. At least Electro's story has some very lowly amount of redeeming values.
 
6. Yeah, I forgot how the exposure to sex in the American media is much more than the amount of exposure we get in Asian media... (no, that's not the reason why we have small dicks... which we don't) Not that it's a bad thing, of course. I mean, who doesn't love sex. Yipee. (Not being sarcastic.)
 
7. Well, I've explained what my view of Spidey is like in regards to CDB's voice in Point 1, so maybe you could care to explain yours as well. :D Because all I got is that Keaton makes a good young Spidey. I don't know.
 
8. I didn't say they were absent, btw. I mentioned that "I'm sure Spectacular also have this."
 
And again, like many Keaton's fans, you haven't explained why his voice is so great, where I've even went on to explain why I find Keaton's voice was... well, decently portrayed. :P
 
9. Whoa, didja just take a lash on the comics? Far out. :P
 
I'll admit, Gwen kinda acted like a Marcy Kane, April (forgot her last name, reporter in the Daily Globe), and Cissy Ironwood... Waitaminute. What am I saying!? She isn't anything like those bitches! Admit it. There was a special scent around her personality when you first read about Gwen Stacy. It's #31, which is around the time Steve Ditko was around, so I wasn't surprised. Ditko probably came up with the character for all we know, and there's a lot of originality in Gwen that's not contrived (c'mon, it's the late 1960s). She was the popular kid who was not a bitch. A popular kid that's actually human? Far out.
 
But yes, her Mary-Sue establishment was an obstructing factor... and it would soon be rendered as not that unique as well later. Writing a perfect character is easy. But back in around #31 or so, in Peter's high school (or college?) days when he was kicked around by bullies? She was a whole entire attraction booth on her own.
 
I'd also agree that the best thing about her was her demise, but not in the way you put it. The best thing about her was not because she was Peter's biggest failure, but because her death was the daring ravage of the pure. If "The Night Gwen Stacy" died were to occur in the gritty '90s, she would've been raped. 
 
Nevertheless, I'm not putting down Spectacular's Gwen through these statements, but rather, trying to point out that the comic Gwen wasn't that bad, just as how I was trying to point out the '90s TAS wasn't that horrendous. But I digress. I noticed the whole Liz and Gwen relationship that occurred in Spec myself, too, and I loved it when I first watched it, too. Like I wrote, I have no problems with the script. The design has nothing to do with the script - nor do the characters. The characters do build up the script, but you could have anyone else playing out a hard-to-get act Spec Gwen tried to pull in the cartoon just as well. Get Mary Jane to do it. Make her the geek and nerd. Now that will be a change we never expected. Of course, there's the whole "different can be good and bad" argument all over again... 10. I think there was an article in ComicVine ("Is The Hulk the strongest of'em all?") where someone commented, "I love how people would compare how one thing is better than the other. Those are the people I label as 'fanboys'." Now, I am blatantly not the best representative to quote that, but I think it is fair to say that you can't really put a score to outrank either TAS or Spectacular. Each were created in different times, as were the '67 Spider-Man animated series. "
 

 I finally got my old account back!  Anyway, I find I'm forced to agree here.   Except for one question: When did I take a lash on the comics?  Just curious.
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