@JonesDeini said:
@Miss_Garrick said:
@Nudeviking: The 2nd Ant Man, Scott Lang, was only a thief to pay for an operation to save his daughter's life, so he is the least dirtbag of the bunch.
Word. I wouldn't consider Hank a dirtbag either. Did he hit Wasp, yes. And as a man who grew up in an a household I would NEVER belittle the real toll of domestic violence. But Hank Pym was A) Never intended to hit her by the writer, it was too late to change the art B) In Story was having one of his (now) sadly familiar psychotic break downs. As a man who struggles with mental illness I can relate to doing things out of character while not fully in control of oneself. Quiet as kept Hank Pym's one of Marvel's most noble and relatable characters, but continues to get a bad wrap because his most iconic moment is an infamous one. Writers like Dan Slott have done their best to rehabilitate his image and move him past his past, but most readers either don't read those stories (Mighty Avengers stands out as the best example) or simply write them off by saying once a wife beater, always a wife beater. Funny how that same logic doesn't apply to Reed Richards or Peter Parker...
On the topic of Eric, I actually like that he's a bastard at his core. I think characters like him are the most interesting to read because they challenge us as readers. Making a character that supposed to be hated, while not making them a caricature is one of the most difficult challenges any writer can face. Doing so while making a reader connect with the character is a twice more herculean trial. A prime example of it being done right would be Ike of Nick Spencer's Morning Glories. He's a smarmy, narcissistic, self-serving, unrepentant bastard and he embodies all the things I hate. But damned if he isn't humorous and charming. And worse yet, damned if I don't relate to him on multiple levels and have to confront that fact and examine myself because of it. John Constantine is likely my second favorite fictional character ever and I find myself at least once an issue going "John, you fraking bastard!!! How could you, man?!" but the thing is I'd hate to see John or Ike "redeemed", that would break the characters for me. It would make them less real if you follow me. Not every character needs to be molded into what the general populace considers a "true" hero. As far as I'm concerned the world needs their irredeemable bastards.
Great, great post. I wish there was a way to "like" or give a rate a post, because that one would get 5 stars.
I agree 100%. I personally prefer the flawed, the rough-around-the-edges, the anti-heroes. The ones who get things wrong sometimes. I think Marvel in general is pretty good at delivering characters like that, ones that are "whole people" – meaning real and relatable. That's why Hank Pym is such an interesting and great character. And Christos Gage is carrying on that kind of story with him in the pages of Avengers Academy, which I hope you are getting to read too, as it is full of great characters. I think what is also important to realize about Hank is that the Wasp forgave him, and he made amends with it too. He still feels guilt over the incident, but it is something they have dealt with together, which is a characteristic of a true hero in my opinion. (I can only hope that your personal situation bore such fruit for you and your family)
But you are also right that even despite all that, Hank will never be fully redeemed in many people's eyes, least of all his own. It's funny how much flak he's gotten for it when Magneto and Wolverine have murdered hundreds of people (one in genocide, the other in the name of "good" supposedly), and yet those two can be on the X-Men and Avengers and whatever else, and Hank takes a back seat in a lot of ways... but again, I think that is self-imposed for him. He doesn't believe he can handle the pressure of the spotlight the way his peers can... (again, read Avengers Academy for more great moments that highlight these qualities)
And as for O'Grady, I have only gotten to know him from his time in the Initiative onward, and I'd agree that his path is certainly one in which he may never be fully redeemed, but that is part of the charm and attraction of the character. You don't necessarily like him, you don't want to be him, but you can still relate, and oftentimes more so than the straight-laced heroes. Because you, me, and everyone else, are human, and we make mistakes too, and that is okay!
My favorites in comics who exhibit some of these characteristics (to varying degrees):
Daredevil (not a wrong-doer, more a "flawed" soul & his "disability"... the ultimate "triumph over adversity" hero in my opinion, I also love him as a person with a "disability" of my own: a learning disability),
Namor, Quicksilver, Prince Charming from Fables (arrogant cads, the lot of them, but with their own set of morals buried beneath their bluster),
Hawkeye (forever in the shadow of his powered and more famous cohorts),
Black Widow (flawed past, love, less-than-altruistic actions),
anyone in the cast of Ed Brubaker's Criminal, Incognito, Sleeper, and Fatale series,
Peter Quill/Starlord of the Guardians of the Galaxy (in a very general sense, he is Marvel's Han Solo. Favorite line, said with defensive vigor: "I get by!"),
Wylie Times and Cole Burns of 100 Bullets (checkered past, reservations on their actions..etc.),
Bras de Oliva Domingos from Daytripper (one of the most real characters I've read in a monthly series, and we get to see him at so many different points in his life – a really beautiful book that might just make you cry),
Asterios Polyp of Asterios Polyp (positively brilliant book written and illustrated by David Mazzucchelli who drew Batman: Year One, starring a arrogant and frustrating central character and a journey of some self-discovery – must-read),
and Casanova Quinn of Casanova (Matt Fraction's acid-trip-time-traveling-spy story that is disorienting, mad, fun, and beautiful all at once).
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