It's been a long time since I read it, but I vaguely remember that scene.
cbishop's forum posts
Re: Bane: he was little more than a thug, when associated with RAG, until someone else had him start ruining Lazarus Pits, reasserting his smarts. This was really the time I was referring to. I realize he's been in Secret Six since then, but honestly haven't read it, so I'll just say that I stand corrected on Bane. ;) ...Deathstroke is amped by a super serum - I don't count him - we'll have to agree to disagree. ...Thank you for supplying the name Archer Braun. I knew it began with an A, but couldn't remember the name. Huntress *did* beat him fair and square (and I loved "jabberwocky," even though that was used somewhere else before that scene) but it wasn't a true display of prowess - taking away his TP advantage sort of took away his skill. I still say that's strategy over prowess. Huntress' prowess has been displayed better in other stories, but she's nowhere near the top. ...I beg to differ on being able to make my own assumptions on Batman's ability. I think his ability to hold Shiva off without inflicting damage is absolutely indicative that if he chose to, he could defeat her outright in a fight to kill. True, Bruce isn't going to do that, but that bit of characterization is what keeps his ranking ambiguous. ...I tentatively agree on Richard Dragon, but if I may borrow your argument for a moment, his rep is part of his character, and his rep is that he's the best. So can I make an assumption based on what has been a constant part of his characterization? Don't we all accept that Wolverine is the best at what he does, simply because that is constantly said about him? ...Last thing: if we include strategy as part of their prowess, as perhaps we should, I contend that Tim Drake moves danged close to the top of the heap. He beat Shiva with a poisoned mint on her pillow, with a strategy planned out well in advance. Tim's badazz, man. ...Of course, all this is really moot, as everything we've talked about so far happened before Flashpoint, and *much* if not *most* of what happened before Flashpoint *didn't happen.* Smell the new DC, and try not to retch. ;)
I apologize for the super long paragraph. The older browser I'm using has caused CV to give me a simple text box to type in, that squashes all my paragraphs into one long block of writing. Sorry.
I will be repeating some stuff, and I apologize to anyone past page one, as I only read the first page. However... I don't count Karate Kid, because he's in the 31st century, but way back pre-COIE, he had a series set in the 20th century. In that publishing time, it was stated that the only person who could give him a good fight was Superboy, and that was only because he was invulnerable and could move at super speed. He knows martial arts from other worlds, and to me, that just makes him too powerful to consider. In Brotherhood of the Fist, Conner Hawke fought Shiva to a standstill, and Batman told him lots would be after him, now that he had taken the #2 slot of martial artists. Within a year or so, Cassandra Cain beat Shiva outright, which made Shiva #2 and Conner #3. Problems with that: Richard Dragon can go toe-to-toe with Shiva. There was a guy in one of the first Birds of Prey titles that could block Shiva's moves, because he could read her mind and block the coming move. Huntress beat that guy by clearing her mind, but that makes her a good strategist, not necessarily a better fighter. The guy died in a fire by the end of the storyline. Last problem with that: Shiva desperately wants to fight Batman, but Batman won't fight her, because she wants to fight to the death. He can hold her off in a non-lethal fight, so I confidently say that if he went lethal, Batman could beat Shiva. And let's face it: he's Batman - he's *going* to be #1, when it comes down to it. Black Canary's skill has improved significantly, as she was being groomed to be the next Shiva, as was Sin. Another child was taken to be groomed as the next Shiva, so she's out there somewhere. I don't count Deathstroke, because his skills are enhanced by the DC equivalent of the super soldier serum. BUT, Green Arrow did the training that allowed him to go toe-to-toe with Deathstroke, and...well, he didn't beat him, he trapped him. Again, this is strategy, not out-and-out fighting prowess. Bane is utterly rejected as a contender for top fighter. He was never a good fighter, even in Knightfall - strategy was always his strong point, although that seems to have gone away over the years. He didn't break Bruce's back by fighting prowess. He wore Bruce down by siccing every loonie in the asylum on him, and then beat a weakened, tired Bruce. Jean-Paul, standing in as Batman, beat Bane almost too easily. I *would* count Jean-Paul, as his skills are still skills, even if they're ingrained hypnotically. Writers seem to focus on his schizo nature more than his fighting prowess though, and he's since been replaced by a less wishy washy character (or did they go back to Jean-Paul?). Either way, I think Azrael should have stayed a villain. Nightwing has significant skill, but at best, I'd count him #7 or 8. The Montoya Question was trained by the Sage Question (as was the Huntress, in an earlier story) and Sage was trained by Richard Dragon, so where does that put them, exactly? The Bronze Tiger was supposed to be a tough mo-fo at one point, but the 80's Suicide Squad seems to have squashed that with some moral conflict in his character - I've never really been clear on it. In any case, he doesn't seem to really rank anymore. Bottom line, in pure, earth-based martial arts skill, I think Bruce Wayne is always going to be the ambiguous #1. Shiva will always be the #1 martial arts villain (although Sensei operates from the shadows, and is written infinitely more dangerous, when he appears). The slots are always going to rotate according to the story and the needs of the writers. It's fun to rank them and try to figure it out, but you will drive yourself crazy if you ever expect there to be a firm ranking. There will always be challengers to the crown, and there will always be new, bigger, badder threats introduced to keep readers interested. The fact that Batman is always #1, so utterly unbeatable, almost makes him boring. He is desperately in need of his Moriarity - both a mental and physical challenge to his own skills - and that stopped being the Joker years and years ago. Sun Tzu was introduced in a video game as foil to Batman, and I keep waiting for him to appear in the comics, as I think he could be a fresh vibe for Bats. We'll see.
Pulp Heroes was a nice surprise for me, because I didn't expect them to be in continuity. I thought they were the current characters shoehorned into the pulp novel era. Instead, it turned out to be current continuity stories showing that the pulp novel story still works today. Very, very cool reads, IMHO.
Oo! Oo! Straighten me out, RScottH08: Do #5-8 &13 relate to the Mosaic? I wasn't completely certain, from the covers.
Aw, c'mon, 'Pookie! It's back issues! Of course some people have read them already! lol Understand: my premise with Would You Buy It (and 12 Month Trades) is that comic companies have a wealth of graphic novel material to mine from their old stories. They're doing that to an extent, with their Essentials, Showcases, Archives and Masterworks, but I want to see other stuff reprinted - stuff that is so far beyond the golden age beginnings of most titles, it's frankly not likely to see publication for years, if we have to wait on a Showcase, Archive, Masterwork or Essential. I'm just picking and choosing as I run across stuff, but I think the graphic novel market is booming, and there's room for the old stories, just as much as the new material currently being published. Besides, really: wouldn't you like to have a handy, dandy, all-in-one volume of those issues? They're easier on storage space, and that's a big factor with me lately. On the other hand, if you've already read it, and don't think you'd ever read it again, then I can totally understand not caring if the TPB comes out again. Honestly, this one would be a passing curiosity for me, and I'd look for it on discount or at a library.
Mighty Monarch: You're probably right on the grouping - I could definitely see that Prelude to Mosaic TPB. I went with two 14-issue volumes, because at this point, the story is so old it has a low sales probability anyway. If it were collected, I think modern fans would look much more kindly on two volumes than they would three. The compendium finally seems to be doing well, as far as how it is bound, so I could maybe even see this as one massive volume, and more likely to sell. I personally wouldn't be a fan of the bigger book, but I could see DC going for it more readily than two or three separate volumes. Price is a factor hindering any of them.
Um, just curious what DD21134 thinks of Flashpoint now? :}
AirDave: I bristle at the Showcase volumes a bit, just because they are in black-and-white, just as I did with the Marvel Essential volumes. However, I must admit that I've actually picked up several of the Showcase volumes at discounted prices, and enjoyed them thoroughly! The reason we have Essentials and Showcases is because recoloring them for the modern preferred paper (rather than the original newsprint they were printed on as single issues) makes the TPB's more expensive (see Marvel's X-Men: Mutant Massacre, at a wopping $30), and B&W; allows them to be affordable. And you get way more B&W; issues for your $16.99 than you would in a color TPB at $16.99 (although the older issues had lower page counts, but most Showcase volumes are usually 500 pages). I'd prefer to see these Legends chapters in color, but color is always my preference. I might still buy them as a Showcase volume, but I'd be a little disappointed about it. Lately, for me, disappointment = no sale.