DBZ: An attempt to clear the waters

I have been mostly absent from the forums for months now. The return of anime vs comic battles and the resulting fanboysim (from both sides) really just turned me away for awhile. I probably won't ever post like I used to (Not that I posted than much anyways seeing as how i've already been here 3 years lmao) but it does seem like the initial torrent of battles has slowed down. However, I still notice a lot of misconceptions about DBZ which I will try to clear up in this blog. Now, obviously, this won't be the end all, be all blog, and I do want outside input, but I do consider myself to be quite knowledgeable on DBZ. So, here goes....

First up, the thing that irritates me the most...power levels and multipliers:

First of all, the author of the manga himself did away with explicit power levels after the Frieza saga because he found them to cumbersome. So most of these calculations that goes into most DBZ debates, specifically the ones using calculations to predict damage output are bull. In my opinion, the author wanted strength to be based on feats, not numbers, which is how it should be.

Now, having said this, there are some multipliers that are (mostly) canon and usable. SSJ1 is a 50x multplier from base form, SSJ2 is a 2x multplier from the previous form, and SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier from the previous form. Now, if you want to include SSJ4 the common multiplier for that is 10x from SSJ3 I believe. The fusion dance multiplies the power level of two warriors and potora multiplies the power level, then multiplies again by 10*.

Concerning power levels, they ARE NOT LINEAR. I had to put that in caps and bold it because this seems to be the one thing no one understands. Take the farmer from DBZ and Roshi when he destroyed the moon. The farmer had a PL of 5 and Roshi about 139. If Power levels were linear, that farmer should be capable of easily destroying mountains and towns. But he isn't because power levels ARE NOT LINEAR. A common rebuttal I see to this is the Farmer had no control of his ki and therefore couldn't access his power. My rebuttal to that is kid Goku when he learned the Kamehameha. He had a PL of 20 yet only destroyed a small car when he first used it. With a PL that high he shouldve taken out the whole area in a flash. So, all these post about Frieza destroying planets therefore Cell should be able to destroy much more are BS because power levels ARE NOT LINEAR. Also, with the Roshi and Piccolo moon busting you can take away 1 of 3 things. One, the moon in DB is a p*ssy. Two, its a BS, high-end feat. Or three, the moon in DB is a p*ssy.

Next up is the concept of everybody and their mothers being planet buster....which isnt true:

We have the Saiyan Saga. Vegeta claims he will destroy the planet out of rage. Vegeta is now capable of busting planets? No, its hyperbole! We have the Cell saga. Cell claims he is going to destroy the solar system/galaxy with a single attack. Cell is now a solar system buster? No, its hyperbole! Hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole! If everything a fictional character said was to be taken as true then I guess everybody who claims themselves as the most powerful/best fighter is. What we do know is that Frieza was capable of destroying a planet with a PL of 120,000,000 in the namek saga although I wouldnt say it was casual. Arguments will be made that he destroyed planet vegeta in his base form but this is debatable. He clearly does it in the anime but in the manga all he says is that he attacked the saiyans and eradicated them. Furthermore, Raditz and Vegeta both say that asteroids were the cause of the 'planets' destruction. So, for the sake of clean debates, base form frieza is not a planet buster but final form is.

As said in the previous paragraphs, power levels ARE NOT LINEAR and there is a 'plateau' in destructive capabilities. The evidence of this 'plateau' stems from either choice you picked for moon busting. If Roshi really did have the power to destroy the moon, then fine. But you can't tell me he ever had the power to destroy the earth. And if you see the moon busting as PIS then you really just come to the same conclusion. So, Cell, who is vastly more powerful than Frieza, who is the first to actually 'display' planet busting, for all intents and purposes is still only in the power level busting range albeit much more casually. The only true casual planet busting we see in DBZ is from Kid Buu.

So i'm not going to sit here and argue that Goku can't bust planets because he can. Honestly, he could bust them as casually as Kid Buu since they are even in power. But, there is no proof of these ridiculous claims of solar system and galaxy busting. None at all.

I will say this, however, Anybody Super Buu level and beyond could most likely really do some damage.....

At this moment i'm not going to bother getting into DBZ speed, strength, or durability. I honestly just don't feel like it right now since it would be a lot to cover. Maybe sometime in the future.

*The multipliers for the fusion dance are really iffy. Those values might be wrong.

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Posted by SSJLozza

I have been mostly absent from the forums for months now. The return of anime vs comic battles and the resulting fanboysim (from both sides) really just turned me away for awhile. I probably won't ever post like I used to (Not that I posted than much anyways seeing as how i've already been here 3 years lmao) but it does seem like the initial torrent of battles has slowed down. However, I still notice a lot of misconceptions about DBZ which I will try to clear up in this blog. Now, obviously, this won't be the end all, be all blog, and I do want outside input, but I do consider myself to be quite knowledgeable on DBZ. So, here goes....

First up, the thing that irritates me the most...power levels and multipliers:

First of all, the author of the manga himself did away with explicit power levels after the Frieza saga because he found them to cumbersome. So most of these calculations that goes into most DBZ debates, specifically the ones using calculations to predict damage output are bull. In my opinion, the author wanted strength to be based on feats, not numbers, which is how it should be.

Now, having said this, there are some multipliers that are (mostly) canon and usable. SSJ1 is a 50x multplier from base form, SSJ2 is a 2x multplier from the previous form, and SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier from the previous form. Now, if you want to include SSJ4 the common multiplier for that is 10x from SSJ3 I believe. The fusion dance multiplies the power level of two warriors and potora multiplies the power level, then multiplies again by 10*.

Concerning power levels, they ARE NOT LINEAR. I had to put that in caps and bold it because this seems to be the one thing no one understands. Take the farmer from DBZ and Roshi when he destroyed the moon. The farmer had a PL of 5 and Roshi about 139. If Power levels were linear, that farmer should be capable of easily destroying mountains and towns. But he isn't because power levels ARE NOT LINEAR. A common rebuttal I see to this is the Farmer had no control of his ki and therefore couldn't access his power. My rebuttal to that is kid Goku when he learned the Kamehameha. He had a PL of 20 yet only destroyed a small car when he first used it. With a PL that high he shouldve taken out the whole area in a flash. So, all these post about Frieza destroying planets therefore Cell should be able to destroy much more are BS because power levels ARE NOT LINEAR. Also, with the Roshi and Piccolo moon busting you can take away 1 of 3 things. One, the moon in DB is a p*ssy. Two, its a BS, high-end feat. Or three, the moon in DB is a p*ssy.

Next up is the concept of everybody and their mothers being planet buster....which isnt true:

We have the Saiyan Saga. Vegeta claims he will destroy the planet out of rage. Vegeta is now capable of busting planets? No, its hyperbole! We have the Cell saga. Cell claims he is going to destroy the solar system/galaxy with a single attack. Cell is now a solar system buster? No, its hyperbole! Hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole! If everything a fictional character said was to be taken as true then I guess everybody who claims themselves as the most powerful/best fighter is. What we do know is that Frieza was capable of destroying a planet with a PL of 120,000,000 in the namek saga although I wouldnt say it was casual. Arguments will be made that he destroyed planet vegeta in his base form but this is debatable. He clearly does it in the anime but in the manga all he says is that he attacked the saiyans and eradicated them. Furthermore, Raditz and Vegeta both say that asteroids were the cause of the 'planets' destruction. So, for the sake of clean debates, base form frieza is not a planet buster but final form is.

As said in the previous paragraphs, power levels ARE NOT LINEAR and there is a 'plateau' in destructive capabilities. The evidence of this 'plateau' stems from either choice you picked for moon busting. If Roshi really did have the power to destroy the moon, then fine. But you can't tell me he ever had the power to destroy the earth. And if you see the moon busting as PIS then you really just come to the same conclusion. So, Cell, who is vastly more powerful than Frieza, who is the first to actually 'display' planet busting, for all intents and purposes is still only in the power level busting range albeit much more casually. The only true casual planet busting we see in DBZ is from Kid Buu.

So i'm not going to sit here and argue that Goku can't bust planets because he can. Honestly, he could bust them as casually as Kid Buu since they are even in power. But, there is no proof of these ridiculous claims of solar system and galaxy busting. None at all.

I will say this, however, Anybody Super Buu level and beyond could most likely really do some damage.....

At this moment i'm not going to bother getting into DBZ speed, strength, or durability. I honestly just don't feel like it right now since it would be a lot to cover. Maybe sometime in the future.

*The multipliers for the fusion dance are really iffy. Those values might be wrong.

Great another anti DBZ thread...

Posted by dccomicsrule2011

Online
Posted by buttersdaman000

@ssjlozza:

Do you understand the definition of anti? Because nothing in my post indicates such.....

Edited by SSJLozza

@buttersdaman000 said:

@ssjlozza:

Do you understand the definition of anti? Because nothing in my post indicates such.....

Of course I do anti can mean any of three things: 1.against ie with a strong dislike of, or grudge against something; 2. capable of (and useful for) eliminating (usually refers to a weapon) e.g. anti-aircraft or anti-tank, and 3. antithesis of e.g. as black is to white, or living is to dead.

So I therefore summise that your post fits into the first definition quite well.

Posted by SSJLozza

This is also not a battle...

Edited by uberhikari

@ssjlozza: Grow up. Just because someone disagrees about the destructive capacity of DBZ characters doesn't mean they're "anti-DBZ."

Edited by buttersdaman000

@ssjlozza:

No, nothing in my post implies that at all. Also, I find it funny that you think I hate DBZ when my avatar has Goku in it lmaoo

Posted by nickzambuto

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Online
Edited by MirrorWave4

Bills solos DC

Posted by SSJLozza

@ssjlozza:

No, nothing in my post implies that at all. Also, I find it funny that you think I hate DBZ when my avatar has Goku in it lmaoo

Well the fact that you insist that Cell isn't SS buster despite the fact that Toriyama offically stated that he is either makes you anti DBZ or just ill informed.

Edited by Walzo

Bills solos DC

God I hope you're not being sarcastic so I can destroy you.

Posted by uberhikari

@ssjlozza said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@ssjlozza:

No, nothing in my post implies that at all. Also, I find it funny that you think I hate DBZ when my avatar has Goku in it lmaoo

Well the fact that you insist that Cell isn't SS buster despite the fact that Toriyama offically stated that he is either makes you anti DBZ or just ill informed.

Can you show me where Toriyama stated that Cell was a solar system buster. I keep hearing this claim but I've never see evidence for this.

Posted by SSJLozza

@ssjlozza: Grow up. Just because someone disagrees about the destructive capacity of DBZ characters doesn't mean they're "anti-DBZ."

No, but the fact that he's taken this much time to state factually incorrect things which would disadvantaged DBZ characters in battles strongly implies he is.

Posted by buttersdaman000

@nickzambuto:

Why not? If hyperbole isn't an argument then.....off the top of my head....post-crisis Superman is capable of benching the earth and casually shattering it with a single, light punch. Which we all know isn't true.

Posted by Simon_the_digger

This shall be interesting.

Edited by buttersdaman000
Posted by Dredeuced

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Given Toriyama's history with not even remembering half the crap in DBZ, he actually doesn't. But his acknowledgement that Cell can blow up a solar system is enough because what he says goes when in regards to the Manga feats. It's like if I made a story and had my main character say he can catch bullets, but never actually does so in the story. Then someone who read the story asks me if he can, I say "Well yes, he can, he wasn't just bragging," -- then tells me "nope, you're wrong, no feats so he can't." People need to be a little more flexible than feats or nothing.

Edited by SSJLozza

@ssjlozza said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@ssjlozza:

No, nothing in my post implies that at all. Also, I find it funny that you think I hate DBZ when my avatar has Goku in it lmaoo

Well the fact that you insist that Cell isn't SS buster despite the fact that Toriyama offically stated that he is either makes you anti DBZ or just ill informed.

Can you show me where Toriyama stated that Cell was a solar system buster. I keep hearing this claim but I've never see evidence for this.

I can't find the interview I'm afraid.

Posted by jaywray

Frieza casually planet busts with 1% power, people still trying to claim DBZ characters aren't multi-planet busters+++++++ are living in a fantasy. Solar system is debatable I guess.

Edited by dondave
Edited by buttersdaman000

@jaywray:

Are you talking about 1% of his final form? Or are you just talking about his base form? Also, how can you say DBZ characters are multi-planet busters+++++++++ and then say busting a solar system is debatable? The two seem mostly even unless i'm misinterpreting the meaning of those + signs

Posted by jaywray

@jaywray:

Are you talking about 1% of his final form? Or are you just talking about his base form? Also, how can you say DBZ characters are multi-planet busters+++++++++ and then say busting a solar system is debatable? The two seem mostly even unless i'm misinterpreting the meaning of those + signs

No I meant that his first form is only 1% of his overall power unless I'm missing something?

I said debatable because I class a Solar System buster as someone capable of taking out a solar system in 1 go, I'm sure if you lined all the planets up that DBZ characters would easily be solar system plus, it's just there's a hell of a lot of space... in space, that's where my issue comes in, I don't think they could take out an entire solar system in one go.

Posted by The Stegman

I just avoid DBZ battles when I can help it, that's the best way to keep my waters clear.

Edited by THC

"Vegeta's statement of destroying Earth with his Gallick Gun was a hyperbole"

Wrong, as you can clearly see it was no hyperbole at all:

Not only that but we know for a fact that the Spirit Bomb is planet-busting at the very least on Earth:

And after tanking Goku's x4 Kamehameha at full power, Vegeta suffered great damage and resorted to transforming into a Great Ape. He then got his tail cut off which greatly saps a Saiyan's energy. He then fully tanks a 50% power Spirit Bomb with much less damage than Goku's Kamehameha, and shrugs it off in seconds:

"Cell's statement of destroying the Solar System, and therefore the Sun, was a hyperbole"

Wrong again, Cell scales perfectly logically to be a casual Solar System buster:

In short; Mecha Frieza was far stronger than Frieza - who destroyed Namek, 10x the mass of Earth in seconds with a flick of his finger - and was speedblitz'd and destroyed in seconds by Future Trunks, who in turn could not lay a hand on Goku. Goku, at that point, would have his head karate chopped off by Perfect Cell before he could even comprehend what was happening.

He was also clearly not joking:

In addition, Android 16 portrayed energy sensing/calculating capabilities so unless there is evidence to the contrary Dr. Gero implemented that in Cell's DNA just like everything else.

"Power Levels are not linear, the farmer had a power level of 5 and Roshi 139 when he destroyed the Moon, therefore the Farmer should be able to destroy mountains"

The reason Power Levels are dismissed is because Toriyama himself has stated their introduction to the series was just to show how faulty the Saiyans' tech was at detecting their energies. Therefore, there is no elaboration or definitive proof of how they work.

However, you are wrong that Power Levels do not appear to scale linearly. They are factually proven (as far as they can be without definitive insight from the creators) to measure incremental increases in energy in an individual.

The reason Power Level scaling is generally a failure, is because by the point of Frieza they were numbering in the millions, and that would put Future Trunks in the multi-millions, and Super Saiyan Vegeta at almost 10 million, and so on. It becomes absolutely ridiculous and incalculable.

You can easily tell that Power Levels are linear, by watching every character's equal progression in displayed power and their recorded Power Levels - up to about the Ginyu Force.

The best thing Power Level scaling can be used for is for proving Roshi could destroy the planet Earth with a Power Level of about 8800. And he did not have a Power Level of 139 when he destroyed the Moon, that was his recording while in a calm state during the Saiyan Saga. Not only did he reasonably get more powerful over Dragonball but when he destroyed the moon he was fully powered. He was probably closer to 180 when he destroyed the moon.

Edited by uberhikari

@dredeuced: Can you show me where Toriyama said Cell can bust a solar system? I've been trying to find it and can't. I've asked other people in other threads and have yet to be shown where Toriyama stated this. Thanks.

Edited by Dredeuced

@dredeuced: Can you show me where Toriyama said Cell can bust a solar system? I've been trying to find it and can't. I've asked other people in other threads and have yet to be shown where Toriyama stated this. Thanks.

It was in some databook crap that Toriyama wrote where it says "Gohan, who defeated Cell's solar system destroying attack!" and also every single interview he ever has at anything resembling a panel he goes to he gets asked the question.

Chances are he's just going along with what the editors wanted to write for the databook and, at the time he was writing it, since he already had his last major villain blow up a planet, the next biggest thing in his mind was the solar system so to up the stakes Cell can now blow up a solar system. It doesn't make any sense but that's DBZ for you.

The databook was translated from this page:

It outright states that "Gohan's 5th Super Saiyan form overpowered Cell's Solar System destroying attack!" all bloviatingly

And like I said, it's not like he hasn't been asked the question before. Though Toriyama is famously forgetful of his own work.

Posted by Marshall_Long

When Vegeta and Raditz said that asteroids were the cause they didn't know Frieza did it, Vegeta found out that he destroyed it during the namek saga, oh and the bardock movie is canon btw.

Posted by uberhikari

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced: Can you show me where Toriyama said Cell can bust a solar system? I've been trying to find it and can't. I've asked other people in other threads and have yet to be shown where Toriyama stated this. Thanks.

It was in some databook crap that Toriyama wrote where it says "Gohan, who defeated Cell's solar system destroying attack!" and also every single interview he ever has at anything resembling a panel he goes to he gets asked the question.

Chances are he's just going along with what the editors wanted to write for the databook and, at the time he was writing it, since he already had his last major villain blow up a planet, the next biggest thing in his mind was the solar system so to up the stakes Cell can now blow up a solar system. It doesn't make any sense but that's DBZ for you.

The databook was translated from this page:

It outright states that "Gohan's 5th Super Saiyan form overpowered Cell's Solar System destroying attack!" all bloviatingly

And like I said, it's not like he hasn't been asked the question before. Though Toriyama is famously forgetful of his own work.

Seriously? LOL! This is it? A handbook, that from the looks of things, was never even officially published? Gohan doesn't even have a "5th Super Saiyan form." So, you want us to scale characters up to solar system busting even though no one in the entire canon (manga) has ever busted anything larger than a planet, based on an unpublished handbook?! I guess I should also believe the Naruto databooks when they say that Haku's attack is light speed, right? Even though this would make Naruto FTL? That's crazy.

Edited by Dredeuced

@uberhikari: Crap, sorry, meant to click edit instead of delete. Reposting:

Gohan's form against cell was the fifth super saiyan form in Japan, that's why all of their books call it the fifth form. The first form was the base super saiyan form Goku achieved vs Freiza, then came the ascended form Trunks and Vegeta got from the time chamber. Then came the Bulky form Trunks used vs Cell. Then came the permanent super saiyan form Goku and Gohan got from the time chamber. In Japan, they refer to Gohan's form vs Cell as the fifth Super Saiyan form.

The "Super Saiyan 2" is an English Translation thing from the Buu saga, don't talk all snidely at me when you don't even know the context.

As I also said, Toriyama's been addressed with the question before during interviews at conventions and junk but I hardly have a translated video of it. If you want to deny it out of spite then that's fine, I don't really mind.

Posted by SlimJ87D

This is not a battle.

Posted by jaywray

@uberhikari: Crap, sorry, meant to click edit instead of delete. Reposting:

The "Super Saiyan 2" is an English Translation thing from the Buu saga, don't talk all snidely at me when you don't even know the context.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I seen his reply. ^

Edited by uberhikari

@dredeuced: Sorry if you thought I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I was being facetious to prove a point. Databook's state ridiculous and contradictory things all the time for the purposes of marketing and promotion. Haku being light speed according to the Naruto databooks is a perfect example of this. And Naruto's Rasenshuriken being able to "hollow out a mountain" is another example of this. Characters don't get access to feats that no one else in the entire series has performed just because some databook said so. Maybe Toriyama really was "forced" to put that in there by the editors but it doesn't mean for one second other people should accept it as Bible truth. At the very least it's PIS given the fact that moving from planet busting to solar system busting requires an increase of power by a magnitude of several hundred thousand.

Posted by THC

Seriously? LOL! This is it? A handbook, that from the looks of things, was never even officially published? Gohan doesn't even have a "5th Super Saiyan form." So, you want us to scale characters up to solar system busting even though no one in the entire canon (manga) has ever busted anything larger than a planet, based on an unpublished handbook?! I guess I should also believe the Naruto databooks when they say that Haku's attack is light speed, right? Even though this would make Naruto FTL? That's crazy.

Stop acting so ignorant. Super Saiyan 2 form was referred to as the 5th form until Super Saiyan 3 was reached by Goku and it was essentially retconned. That is the original scan and of course it was officially published. In manga, any insight from the authors cannot be delivered directly on the pages in bubbles and such like you see in comics so the handbooks are the equivalent of that.

You spend so much time arguing against DBZ and defying the facts laid out to you out of complete ignorance. Why don't you just watch the entire series for yourself, or actually read the "walls of text" that you ignorantly refuse to read - which are laid out to you by knowledgeable DBZ fans that can portray to you how powerful DBZ characters are in detail - and thus give understanding of that which you are so confused?

Posted by Dredeuced

@dredeuced: Sorry if you thought I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I was being facetious to prove a point. Databook's state ridiculous and contradictory things all the time for the purposes of marketing and promotion.Haku being light speed according to the Naruto databooks is a perfect example of this. And Naruto's Rasenshuriken being able to "hollow out a mountain" is another example of this. Characters don't get access to feats that no one else in the entire series has performed just because some databook said so. Maybe Toriyama really was "forced" to put that in there by the editors but it doesn't mean for one second other people should accept it as Bible truth. At the very least it's PIS given the fact that moving from planet busting to solar system busting requires an increase of power by a magnitude of several hundred thousand.

Honestly, I think it's true because there's no reason to believe otherwise. The most logical answer, to me, is that Toriyama was attempting to up the stakes of the current main villain and did so by making it so that SPC could blow up the solar system. Simple as that, really. He's a rather simple minded story writer. If Toriyama's intention and confirmation was that Cell could do what he said then so be it. It's hardly that big a deal.

Also I don't think you necessarily have to scale it between the earth and the sun's mass. I mean most of the sun is just made up from hydrogen and helium, it's hardly very sturdy, if massive, if you want to get into the maths of it. That said, I think the last thing Toriyama cared about when making that scene was the exact calculations behind what it would take for Cell to blow up a solar system, lol.

Posted by buttersdaman000

@jaywray:

So base form, right? If that's what you meant, it was never stated that he destroyed planet vegeta himself in the manga. All he says is that he eradicated the saiyans. Also Raditz and Vegeta both saying asteroids destroyed the planet and i'm pretty sure frieza said it too (Although I would have to go back home and reread the volume to make sure). Point is, only the anime shows him explicitly destroying the planet.

When Vegeta and Raditz said that asteroids were the cause they didn't know Frieza did it, Vegeta found out that he destroyed it during the namek saga, oh and the bardock movie is canon btw.

He found out that Frieza killed the saiyans, not that he destroyed the planet. And the bardock movie isn't full canon to the manga. Bardock is a canon character but the specifics of the movie necessarily aren't.

@thc:

Pretty sure none of that happened quite the same way in the manga. And adding 41 to my 139 doesn't really change anything. Also, again, PL does not scale linearly. If so, like I mentioned in my first post, Kid Goku wouldve destroyed much more than a car with his first kamehameha

Posted by Dredeuced
Posted by buttersdaman000

@dredeuced:

Eww that was horrible. I remember reading some of that crap a while ago but I instantly erased it from my mind because of how crappy it was. Question is...does this overwrite previous canon....like Bardock dying???!!!!

Edited by jaywray

@jaywray:

So base form, right? If that's what you meant, it was never stated that he destroyed planet vegeta himself in the manga. All he says is that he eradicated the saiyans. Also Raditz and Vegeta both saying asteroids destroyed the planet and i'm pretty sure frieza said it too (Although I would have to go back home and reread the volume to make sure). Point is, only the anime shows him explicitly destroying the planet.

....Of course I suppose this is hyperbole and just doesn't count as well as every other thing in DBZ as Toriyama is just that kind of writer.

Posted by uberhikari

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced: Sorry if you thought I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I was being facetious to prove a point. Databook's state ridiculous and contradictory things all the time for the purposes of marketing and promotion.Haku being light speed according to the Naruto databooks is a perfect example of this. And Naruto's Rasenshuriken being able to "hollow out a mountain" is another example of this. Characters don't get access to feats that no one else in the entire series has performed just because some databook said so. Maybe Toriyama really was "forced" to put that in there by the editors but it doesn't mean for one second other people should accept it as Bible truth. At the very least it's PIS given the fact that moving from planet busting to solar system busting requires an increase of power by a magnitude of several hundred thousand.

Honestly, I think it's true because there's no reason to believe otherwise. The most logical answer, to me, is that Toriyama was attempting to up the stakes of the current main villain and did so by making it so that SPC could blow up the solar system. Simple as that, really. He's a rather simple minded story writer. If Toriyama's intention and confirmation was that Cell could do what he said then so be it. It's hardly that big a deal.

Also I don't think you necessarily have to scale it between the earth and the sun's mass. I mean most of the sun is just made up from hydrogen and helium, it's hardly very sturdy, if massive, if you want to get into the maths of it. That said, I think the last thing Toriyama cared about when making that scene was the exact calculations behind what it would take for Cell to blow up a solar system, lol.

Listen, it's disingenuous to come into a debate forum and then claim that the feats of characters or how we assess them doesn't matter because Toriyama "is a rather simple minded story writer." Either feats matter or they don't. Either we assess feats rationally or we don't. Like I said, even if Toriyama intended for Cell to be powerful enough to destroy a solar system it's completely PIS. The fact that he made Cell this powerful in order to "up the ante" is the definition of PIS. And I put Cell being a solar system buster in the same category with Haku being light speed.

*Also, from a mathematical/scientific standpoint it doesn't matter if hydrogen or helium is sturdy. What matters is mass and the gravitational binding energy produced by the mass of an object. Material doesn't matter (pun intended), only mass does. And in this case we're talking about the gravitational binding energy of an entire system of a star, planets, and satellites. That's HUGE compared to a single planet. (And even a solar system is in orbit around the super massive black hole at the center of most galaxies.)

Edited by THC

@buttersdaman000 said:

@thc:

Pretty sure none of that happened quite the same way in the manga. And adding 41 to my 139 doesn't really change anything. Also, again, PL does not scale linearly. If so, like I mentioned in my first post, Kid Goku wouldve destroyed much more than a car with his first kamehameha

The fact that you said Roshi was at 139 when he destroyed the moon just shows you copy/pasted those numbers from somewhere and/or didn't check them yourself.

Power Levels do scale linearly but it is ultimately an irrelevant argument and would only result in endless walls of text. Just re-watch the first 100 episodes of Dragonball Z. Or re-read them if that's your thing. You will see.

When Goku performed the Kamehameha it was incredibly remarkable as he had never seen or heard of the technique before. No one to date has replicated such Taskmaster-like abilities in DBZ. Goku's Kamehameha was far weaker than Roshi's for a number of reasons but mostly because obviously he hadn't mastered the technique yet, it was his first one. He also had no idea about ki, and so had not trained it like Master Roshi, Goku was also still both physically and spiritually weaker than Roshi.

Edited by buttersdaman000

@jaywray:

There have been multiple copies of that scan thrown around the internet. It's one of the more notorious imo. Here's one of them...

In this scan it simply says it was destroyed. Now, If I can find a volume of DBZ that explicitly says such, then I will concede. But for now, that scan holds no water.....but even soit doesn't matter at what form frieza destroyed a planet since destructive capacity seems to plateau for a while......

Posted by Dredeuced

@dredeuced said:

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced: Sorry if you thought I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I was being facetious to prove a point. Databook's state ridiculous and contradictory things all the time for the purposes of marketing and promotion.Haku being light speed according to the Naruto databooks is a perfect example of this. And Naruto's Rasenshuriken being able to "hollow out a mountain" is another example of this. Characters don't get access to feats that no one else in the entire series has performed just because some databook said so. Maybe Toriyama really was "forced" to put that in there by the editors but it doesn't mean for one second other people should accept it as Bible truth. At the very least it's PIS given the fact that moving from planet busting to solar system busting requires an increase of power by a magnitude of several hundred thousand.

Honestly, I think it's true because there's no reason to believe otherwise. The most logical answer, to me, is that Toriyama was attempting to up the stakes of the current main villain and did so by making it so that SPC could blow up the solar system. Simple as that, really. He's a rather simple minded story writer. If Toriyama's intention and confirmation was that Cell could do what he said then so be it. It's hardly that big a deal.

Also I don't think you necessarily have to scale it between the earth and the sun's mass. I mean most of the sun is just made up from hydrogen and helium, it's hardly very sturdy, if massive, if you want to get into the maths of it. That said, I think the last thing Toriyama cared about when making that scene was the exact calculations behind what it would take for Cell to blow up a solar system, lol.

Listen, it's disingenuous to come into a debate forum and then claim that the feats of characters or how we assess them doesn't matter because Toriyama "is a rather simple minded story writer." Either feats matter or they don't. Either we assess feats rationally or we don't. Like I said, even if Toriyama intended for Cell to be powerful enough to destroy a solar system it's completely PIS. The fact that he made Cell this powerful in order to "up the ante" is the definition of PIS. And I put Cell being a solar system buster in the same category with Haku being light speed.

*Also, from a mathematical/scientific standpoint it doesn't matter if hydrogen or helium is sturdy. What matters is mass and the gravitational binding energy produced by the mass of an object. Material doesn't matter (pun intended), only mass does. And in this case we're talking about the gravitational binding energy of an entire system of a star, planets, and satellites. That's HUGE compared to a single planet. (And even a solar system is in orbit around the super massive black hole at the center of most galaxies.)

Ease of destruction does not scale linearly with gravitational pull. There are a whole lot of factors involved. You could destroy the sun by just adding a lot of mass to it and causing it to burn out, but that's hardly relevant.

It's not disingenuous. No more than saying "Feats or nothing" disregarding context. Cell literally absorbed the energy of a couple of androids who had infinite energy generators running their bodies, it's not like he lacked the potential energy output. Also, I agree that you should throw out databooks when the actual on panel showings disprove that statement, but nothing actually disproves Cell, it's just unsubstantiated. That's why I ere on the side of intent. I don't mind if others thinks he can't, it's up for interpretation.

Posted by buttersdaman000

@thc:

Ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter where I got the number, where did you get your numbers?? Also, that explanation is weak. If anything, Kid Goku was not one for holding back so his attack should reflect such....Also, if you think that then you pretty much dismiss the use of Power levels all together. Is there any doubt that Goku had a PL of about 20? No. Is there any doubt that Roshi destroyed the moon with a PL of about 180? No. Yet you say the reason more damage wasn't done is because Goku was not trained as well as Roshi? Well, I doubt most people in the series were trained as well as Roshi but they still output more damage because their power level is higher, right? So was goten's first kamehameha wave weaker than roshis too?

Posted by jaywray

@jaywray:

There have been multiple copies of that scan thrown around the internet. It's one of the more notorious imo. Here's one of them...

In this scan it simply says it was destroyed. Now, If I can find a volume of DBZ that explicitly says such, then I will concede. But for now, that scan holds no water.....but even soit doesn't matter at what form frieza destroyed a planet since destructive capacity seems to plateau for a while......



I have read the dbz manga on 5+ sites and every single one has said the same thing, except for yours.

So there's that.

regardless.


There's another one.

and the fact that King Cold out right states that Earth is nothing and they could destroy it in a single blast again, goes against what you're saying.




Ps saying that my scans hold no water, when your scans look absolutely terrible quality wise, Ill happily say at least mine look somewhat well done and id happily trust mine over yours.

Although I do not own the official translated manga myself. As it's £400 and I don't have that much.

Edited by THC
@buttersdaman000 said:

@thc:

Ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter where I got the number, where did you get your numbers?? Also, that explanation is weak. If anything, Kid Goku was not one for holding back so his attack should reflect such....Also, if you think that then you pretty much dismiss the use of Power levels all together. Is there any doubt that Goku had a PL of about 20? No. Is there any doubt that Roshi destroyed the moon with a PL of about 180? No. Yet you say the reason more damage wasn't done is because Goku was not trained as well as Roshi? Well, I doubt most people in the series were trained as well as Roshi but they still output more damage because their power level is higher, right? So was goten's first kamehameha wave weaker than roshis too?

In the World Martial Arts Tournament Trunks warns Goten not to use any blasts because he has not been trained and wouldn't be able to control them. The only one who had trained Goten before his battle with Trunks was Chi Chi who to my knowledge has no ki blast feats, and Gohan for a short while along with Videl. Because Goten lacked training and experience with ki blasts they would be much weaker than Trunks', to a much higher degree than their physical stats.

Goten's Kamehameha was weaker than Roshi's in skill. But obviously not power, as Goten is at base a Super Saiyan presumably having been conceived by Goku in Super Saiyan form.

Each and every ki blast that DBZ characters use is a signature, individual technique that requires specific mastery. It can certainly become nigh impossible to keep track of them, same as Power Levels, after Frieza, but up until Frieza, it is very easy, and critically analyzing those sagas in addition to Dragonball is all you need to understand why your understanding of ki techniques is flawed. The Kamehameha wave is a specific technique that functions and operates completely different than any other wave. In fact, Goku distinctly improved upon Roshi's variation late in Dragonball, when he introduced the 'Super Kamehameha' on Piccolo.

My numbers come from examining Roshi's power then and now and accounting for when he buffed himself up, thereby increasing his power before blasting the moon to bits.

Posted by uberhikari

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced said:

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced: Sorry if you thought I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I was being facetious to prove a point. Databook's state ridiculous and contradictory things all the time for the purposes of marketing and promotion.Haku being light speed according to the Naruto databooks is a perfect example of this. And Naruto's Rasenshuriken being able to "hollow out a mountain" is another example of this. Characters don't get access to feats that no one else in the entire series has performed just because some databook said so. Maybe Toriyama really was "forced" to put that in there by the editors but it doesn't mean for one second other people should accept it as Bible truth. At the very least it's PIS given the fact that moving from planet busting to solar system busting requires an increase of power by a magnitude of several hundred thousand.

Honestly, I think it's true because there's no reason to believe otherwise. The most logical answer, to me, is that Toriyama was attempting to up the stakes of the current main villain and did so by making it so that SPC could blow up the solar system. Simple as that, really. He's a rather simple minded story writer. If Toriyama's intention and confirmation was that Cell could do what he said then so be it. It's hardly that big a deal.

Also I don't think you necessarily have to scale it between the earth and the sun's mass. I mean most of the sun is just made up from hydrogen and helium, it's hardly very sturdy, if massive, if you want to get into the maths of it. That said, I think the last thing Toriyama cared about when making that scene was the exact calculations behind what it would take for Cell to blow up a solar system, lol.

Listen, it's disingenuous to come into a debate forum and then claim that the feats of characters or how we assess them doesn't matter because Toriyama "is a rather simple minded story writer." Either feats matter or they don't. Either we assess feats rationally or we don't. Like I said, even if Toriyama intended for Cell to be powerful enough to destroy a solar system it's completely PIS. The fact that he made Cell this powerful in order to "up the ante" is the definition of PIS. And I put Cell being a solar system buster in the same category with Haku being light speed.

*Also, from a mathematical/scientific standpoint it doesn't matter if hydrogen or helium is sturdy. What matters is mass and the gravitational binding energy produced by the mass of an object. Material doesn't matter (pun intended), only mass does. And in this case we're talking about the gravitational binding energy of an entire system of a star, planets, and satellites. That's HUGE compared to a single planet. (And even a solar system is in orbit around the super massive black hole at the center of most galaxies.)

Ease of destruction does not scale linearly with gravitational pull. There are a whole lot of factors involved. You could destroy the sun by just adding a lot of mass to it and causing it to burn out, but that's hardly relevant.

It's not disingenuous. No more than saying "Feats or nothing" disregarding context. Cell literally absorbed the energy of a couple of androids who had infinite energy generators running their bodies, it's not like he lacked the potential energy output. Also, I agree that you should throw out databooks when the actual on panel showings disprove that statement, but nothing actually disproves Cell, it's just unsubstantiated. That's why I ere on the side of intent. I don't mind if others thinks he can't, it's up for interpretation.

First, I'm not disregarding context. There is literally NO context for Cell being able to destroy a solar system. Literally 1 arc ago they were barely busting planets, now all of a sudden they can bust solar systems? If that's true then the Super Saiyan multipliers don't even make sense anymore. SSJ 2 is 2x more powerful than an SSJ 1, but an SSJ 1 can bust planets while an SSJ 2 can bust solar systems? I mean, I can make an argument that going by context Cell being a solar system buster is PIS.

Second, nobody in the DBZ manga ever busted (or even attempted to bust) a solar system so the on panel showings can't disprove the databooks. It was literally a feat never attempted. Basically what you're saying is that we should accept what databooks say irrespective of how ridiculous it is as long as on-panel showings never contradict it? Again, I point to Haku being light speed and rest my case; strictly speaking on panel showings never contradicted that either, it just seems extremely ridiculous given the feats of characters later in the series.

*Also, the Androids didn't have "infinite energy generators." You make it seem like the had an infinite amount of energy, which they obviously didn't.

Edited by theONEtaichou

Oh wow *facepalm*

Edited by redbird3rdboywonder

this thread and this topic is tiresome

Posted by buttersdaman000

@jaywray:

Well, I own and read the manga volumes and I don't remember that scan at all.

@thc:

What?

- Because Goten lacked training and experience with ki blasts they would be much weaker than Trunks'

- Goten's Kamehameha was weaker than Roshi's in skill. But obviously not power

So, you're pretty much saying you can pick and choose how much power is lost due to lack of training? For one, Goten was already weaker than Trunks in that tournament. Two, you pretty much contradicted your stance in that second line. Goku's PL doesnt matter but Gotens does? That doesnt make sense. And how can you be weaker in skill?

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