beatboks1

@zetsu-san: honestly my memory of Negal is pretty non existent. I'm going to have to re-read the Dr Fate mini and come back to this.

The comment about Etrigan being a top sorcerer though, let's not forget he HATES using magic because he hates being reminded of a relationship to his brother Merlin. Not exactly a go to option in character. Yes he is, but he'd rather fight physically or with he'll fire

You should probably edit the word exact out of your op title.

Dr Strange doesn't have super strength, invulnerability, super speed without his magic Fate does.

Swamp Thing isn't a nexus of reality Man thing is.

Aquaman doesn't fly, Namor doesn't have TP.

There's quite a bit more but you get the drift

@kfabz-23:

In terms of recognition and wider knowledge (outside comic fandom) Batman and Joker.

In terms of the intensity of animosity between hero and Villain, Aquaman and Black Manta.

I can't think of another pairing when it got soooo personal. Manta was the cause of Aquamans dads death, Aquaman killed Manta's dad thinking it was Manta. Manta tried to kill Arthur's son. That's a lebelof personal hatred between 2 enemies not shown very often

This Gif doesn't show spiderman moving as fast as lightning. Wo bolts of Lightning that leave the statue of Liberty's head well after Spidey left frombot clearly move past him, a few others move massively greater distance than him in the same time frame.

Spidey can and always has been able to dodge very fast things, bot necessarily due to speed but to spidey sense letting him know not tk be where those things were going ro hit. That's why comic spidey has dodged firelord whose mftl.

There's many things wrong on both sides of this debate so I'm not getting into the overall argument. I don't see anyone soloing but Marvel wins mid low diff despite failed arguments made by both sides.

@professorrespect:

Proof? Karkull was capable of manifesting in the Shadowlands and able to manipulate it as already shown to you: just because him and Obsidian were pooling their resources doesn't mean he wasn't able to do so

No Karkull is not and has never been able to manipulate the shadowlands. You have not provided a single piece of proof to that because the scans in your linked thread of influencing shadows aren't done by Karkull. I invite you to provide proof of Karkull doing such a thing and proving your case (an actual scan where we see Karkull donit jot it happening in a comic he appearsnin with Todd who can). The fact is every scan of actual Karkull doing anything with shadows actually shows he doesn't control them. Point in fact when Fate looks into tue mind of the 'Shadows" who attacked FDR. Karkull didn't control them, they operated out of fear they were screaming " no he'll" before the magic destroyed them for failing him. Why wouldnthat be necessary if he could control them in their shadow form??

This is pretty incorrect: while Todd has his demons he certainly was corrupted by Karkull given the actual arc has Karkull exploit his mental instabilities for his own devices.

You claimed he was soul manipulated Todd using the same power Todd does to show others their darker sides. I said he didntninfluence Todd with power which is utterly correct. To use your own words if you read the arc Karkull sat in a coffee shop and talked to Todd and influenced him that way. Not by using an ability he's never once shown as your non respect thread claims. Scans already in this thread show that Todd then used his own shadow power to look at the darkness within himslef and felt more powerful for it. Todd corrupted himself with his own power after Ian talked him into it. That's not what your claiming. Your claiming Karkull also has this power corrupt Obsidian but he doesn't have that power to use and has never shown that ability.

Karkull just did nothing at all despite his obvious feats just linked to you alongside the fact he clearly had a big hand in showing off the Shadowlands and using them to his own devices. You literally see him in the Shadowlands overpower JSA lads by himself.

That's right he did absolutely nothing in that arc. Nothing in your linked joke of a respect thread shows that because everything done to the JSA in the shadowlands was done by Obsidian not Ian. As for jot having read the source material I think we all know who actually hasn't. The coffee shop conversation and the scan of Todd saying he looked at his ownninner darkness were all in issues of the previous JSA arcs leading up to that one. They were built upon to lead into the story.

Todd is much more powerful than Karkull at base power level because only part of Todd's power comes from Karkull. Karkull was a human turned into a shadow form bynhis sciance and stucj there because Fate destroyed the device. While stuck in that form he learned some magic and a way to use his shadow form to absorb time. Todd is the result of anportion of that shadow form bathing his father and mixing with the chaos magic that is the starheart and becoming part of the seed of Todd's and Jenny Lyne's birth. It's literally the combination of the 2 that Eclipso uses in Darkest Knight when he influences Shade to use hisnpower to control shadow power based characters to gain control of Jade so that Eclipso can control the starheart vs Spectre. In that same arc as I've already stated the only shadow power based character Shade couldn't control was Obsidian because I was stated on panel they are equal.

Excluding all that we have several showings of the level of Todd's power since that arc (and before) at a much higher power level than anything shown in that arc. But if we use just two, the fourth Reitch used the power of Todd to depower every metahuman on earth in the fatherland arc. Todd could contain and keep out all the souls of Hiroshima trying to get at the JSA until an amped Stargirl and a full on Allan Scot attack co-incided with their attempt. The following issue Crispus Allen Spectre couldn't contain them at all.

@professorrespect:

It's hilarious that you would call someone out on context and in the same post put a link to that respect thread with so many context issues.

70% of the feats in your so called RT aren't feats of Karkull. It was Obsidian who controlled the shadows of the city and fought the JSA , Black Canary etc in that arc not Ian Karkull. Not s single feat you posted under the headings shadow absorption or corruption is done by Karkull.

Under the shadow construction heading only the two large scans are of Karkull and neither is a feat of shadow construction. Both are feats of converting a living being into a shadow being. The first one is done with the same tech that Karkull used to turn himslef into a shadow which Fate then destroyed trapping him in that form. The second is with the magic of Ragnor he learned in that form. Not to mention in those two feats that actually do belong to Karkull he has zero control over the shadows other than normal human influence. Innthe case of the thugs threatening and trying to scare FDR to death it was fear for their lives (as shown when they said "no we cant").

Your scan of "shadow corruption" yet another example of ignoring the dialogue and just looking at the pretty pictures. Karkull didn't corrupt Obsidian with his power. Naration even says Todd turned his darkness on him self and liked how it felt.

It was also Todd, not Karkull who drew Alan into the shadow lands.

The only feats pertinent to karkull were the tech ones, the two I mentioned and the house Karkull had enchanted innprepro drain Fate so he could absorb his years of life (given Kent was made unaging by Nabu that would have been a LOT of years). If this was something Karkull was capable ofnin battle why would he have needed to prep for it?? That's context my boy, ignored by you. Not to mention that innthe story Fate was delayed by the bad storms getting to the house (storms are something Karkull did in his second appearance with tech in more fun comics BTW). Further indicating he needed time to fully prepare the trap.

So Karkull has zero team busting feats as I said because your RT is utter BS and full of feats not belonging to Karlull.

I'd go on to post a few dozen feats showing how light hasn't been a problem for Todd for decades like tanking Chroma's light blast, Silver Scarabs solar blasts, the Shazam lightning but what's then point, since I'm only debating an argument full of lies and misrepresentations of what occurred on panel. I thought you were better than this, now I know better.

There was a bronze age story where a solar powered protagonist dumped Arthur in the desert and he survived for weeks using survival techniques like digging for water, squeezing moisture from a cactus. He even used the sand to scrub and polish aboiece of metal he found into a highly reflective surface to use to signal an overhead plane with Morse code for his eventual rescue. When he faced the solar powered guy again he pulled that same reflective piece of metal out of his belt and reflected his solar beam straight back st him.

Arthur hasn't had a weakness to needing water since the 60s. Though getting a dousing has always given him greater strength.

The OP says you get their abilities not become their species. In MMH'S case his weakness is a psychological one of his species. Unlike the others it's not a weakness due to his powerset. As you said the OP said you get the characters weakness, since Jonn has overcome it he doesn't have it to get.

And honestly who would care about a weakness to fire. We all have a weakness to fire due to plain old human vulnerability. So it's no change what so ever.

@tighten_returns:

Zod threw Superman threw 5 skyscrapers, Sabbac didn't do the same to Hawkman.

That's a poor argument because it doesn't come down to just strength of force used in the feat. I'm not getting into the overall debate because I don't really care but there is a difference in hoth mass and more importantly weight between Superman and Hawkman.

Supes has a much denser body due to the electromagnetic field in his body caused by the solar energy he absorbs making his atomic structure more strongly bonded. Its why he's invulnerable, he's strong due to denser muscles. Hawkman is a guy who wears a metal that negates gravity. He flies because he's basically weightless.

If I throw a base ball (thatnis denser and has significant weight and a feather with the same force the baseball will do a lot of damage that the feather wouldn't.

It's because F=MxA. Nth metal counters the mass so HM is the feather to SM baseball. The fact that throwing HM damaged a building with his negated weight makes Sabbas' attack potency comparatively above the AP of Zod doing the damage he did to the skyscrapers. It's literally why Flash is as potent as he is IMP.

@professorrespect:

There is dialogue on the page that explains what happens in the images I don't know if you're aware but that's the purpose of a comic to combine the 2 to tell a story. On the previous page we see obsidian in imagery do exact same thing as Karkull after Todd says you're no longer required. We see his form spread out become nothing and Kaekull pass harmlessly through it. Is this someone or something absorbing obsidian? or maybe he absorbed himself.

I'd also love to know exactly what amp Karkull is supposed to have given Obsidian Ian karkull has actually never displayed powers on the panel of a comic. In his 1st appearance in more fun comics number 69 he was a scientist who had come up with a way or a machine that turned people into shadow he used it to turn ordinary hoodlums into shadows so they could commit crimes for him and then turn them back. He encountered doctor fate who destroyed the machine leaving karkull trapped as a shadow. His next appearance was the following issue in which Wotan astral projected to him seeking help to escape where he was last trapped by fate. He taught kakull the magic he would need to free him. Then the 2 made a machine that controlled the elements of wind water and fire and used it to terrorise until fate stop them. His appearance after this was in All Star squadron annual 3 in which he solicited the help of a group of super villains to attack and kill future presidents of the United States. Amongst those were the wizard Wotan, the sorcerous spirit Zor, catwoman, Lightning master, Dr Doog, Alexander the great, tarantula, Monsieur Sstan. In This story he again turned people into shadows this time using magic taught presumably by Wotan and had them attempt to assinate FDR. When tracked by doctor fate to his location fate entered a house that had a spell cast upon it to drain fate of his power again no real showings of karkull whatsoever using any sort of power other than a spell and no on panel confirmation that said spells were even done by Karkull himself (given he had solicited help from two of the most powerful DC villain mystics).

Now aside from reprinting of these stories, his appearances in who's who and Secret files and references in other comics like amaerica vs the JSA to his shadow form giving the JSA extra life and vitality his only other appearances are the the JSA series that I've put scans up of. Where he did even less than in those other 3 tales.

Exactly what power amp is Karkull supposed to have given Todd?? Karkull doesn't even have power over shadows like Todd, he never has had.

You falsely Claimed that karkull is a team Buster which hes not, never done, not once, not ever.

You falsely claimed that obsidian is only human compared to shade which simply isn't the truth since he hasn't had a human form in decades

He ca spread himself out across the universe back in JLA long before he spread himself and cast shadow over just the little planet earth.

He can literally leave the space time continuum

You falsely claimed that obsidian can be harmed yet it was shown

decades ago he can't even harm himself when hes trying to.

https://imgur.io/mnO5vmC?r

Fact is even a demon like Scarabus (who claimed to be death)who could only be contained by the lord of order Arion after he was weakened could only make small holes in Obsidian's shadow form.

Not to mention when Todd shielded the JSA Brownestone from the spirits from Hiroshima (only succumbing after said spirits amped the already amped cosmic staff of Stargirl) the very next issue these same spirits couldn't be contained by Crispus Allen Spectre. By all means explain how that was somehow amped.

How about the fatherland arc where a Faberge egg artefact was used to absorb and contain Todd and his power through it wasnused to depower every hero on earth. I suppose that was a different power level again.

In any case you've convinced me I was wrong. I had said in post 16 page 1 that Surfer takes it in a close one due to greater versatility. After rereading so many issues to find these feats I now realise Obsidian wins due to greater hax. I had forgotten most of these showings until recently