beatboks1's forum posts

#1 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

Will read thru later. Just finished my 3rd 12hr all nighter at work in a row so a little stuffed.

SWF, surprisedvyou tagged me in this knowing how much I f a Hellstorm fanboy I am. I'll try not B to let my obvious favoritism infl u ence my vote ( not making any promises though ;D )

#2 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: oh OK, I thought you meant we were trying to say I was doing things that my build wasnt capable of. I never meant to infer that I would straight up tank every strike (the scan certainly shows thats not the case). But sjnce shadow knows pressure points, argus can see thats where im going to be hit, Armstrong has the speed and reflexes to dodge more than either, and Armstrong can adapt to such strikes pretty quickly to move beyond them. That for the few if any nerve strikes Fett's could make on me it shouldn't decide a battle between us.

Given Shadows marksmanship etc combined with speed and sight, I never actually expected to let h I m close enough to make use of the nerve strikes.

Looking at our battle posts that wasnt exactly clear though.

#3 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: @makhai:

hank you both for your evaluation.

I do have a question for Luna (please realize, not questioning any verdict, just so we know for future evidence presentation)

Meanwhile I felt that TTBA’s team oversold and stretched some of the logic as far as some of his team’s abilities, specifically Beatboks

I'm curious about this. I realize this may (and probably is) due to the fact that in the overall TEAM post MUCH of the evidence each of us put up in our pm was left out to make it more digestible as it were.

We never stated at all that I was physically a match for Fett's. But with the build I had I certainly matched his reactions.

Power of Argus

In the fist one he sees the trajectory of the projectiles before they are fired.

Second one he sees potential things that will happen

The nest three he sees the pressure points and weak points on lifeforms previously never encountered.

Last one he sees hate (there are others of him seeing emotion also. If he can see the emotion that drives your motivation that allows him to be two steps ahead of the play when you add the first and second scan. So with just the first two alone he matches Cass Cane's movement reading but combining in the others has a sense that is better. When you also add the fact that he can see through things and in compete darkness as well as see the "truth" of things

As seen her the vision power allows my build to see how things fit together, break codes, see the "Truth" behind things and see through walls and in the dark. Just as in the third scan Argus sees the woman playing the patsy as being the big boss by seeing a "fat cat director" he would see that Fett's had seen the events in advance and how he could react. knowing he could push the crates back on us he could easily with this power project where they would hit and dodge.

Body of Lancelot Strong (not as Fett's team posted for Bill Higgins)

The argument would be of course that i don't have Shadow's senses as they were a power. BUT I do have the senses of Lancelot Strong, plus the reflexes

Reflexes that defy the deadliest weapons at point blank rang combined with the skill of Shadow and the senses of Armstrong "more accurate than radar", plus predictive vision, the ability to see emotional drive and know what action you'll take before you do. The ability to project where a projectile will hit before fired.

I did the whole cropped thing because of the three page rule. But in hindsight everything I wanted was on three pages. You see that in the first scan it takes him all but two panels of a page to catch up to the boat with the leaving head honchos. The next page he gets zapped by the nerve disruptor and falls into the water. yet he is back to Web in just as many panels as it took him to get from Web to the boat (indicating JUST how fast he did "adapt")

It states in his bio that he's faster than the "deadliest weapons at point blank" an he dodges fired weapons at point black all the time. Argus' body doesn't have "speed, Armostrong's DOES

The differences between Strong and the other Shields is that they underwent a super soldier experiment that altered their bodies. Strong underwent a super soldier program that untapped the full potential of the mind. His bodies way of dealing with things was influenced by him using more of his brain.

Skill of Shadow

Shadow also has amazing reactions

http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jjschm20/media/GrendelvsTheShadow003-004.jpg.html

http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jjschm20/media/GrendelvsTheShadow003-005.jpg.html

As the scans show this reaction is not JUST skill but relies on his powers. His Mental senses.

But I chose a body that had enhanced hearing and sight as well as "radar like sense". plus a power with vastly enhanced vision. So realistically my build reactions are better.

Then there was the comparison of Batman's skills so superior to Shadow

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1335/38DtPc.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img912/6394/HVH9OP.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img633/5621/BpxEtB.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/1760/t7UBLZ.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/5136/WCGb2D.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1139/LibuZR.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2609/GKJSdY.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/9494/ZqSa4R.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/2214/Y9JxdP.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img907/4479/kDrDdW.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/1034/Wcsevl.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1884/r5qgzN.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/1685/Yxe0Zn.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/7469/qeZSu1.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2268/phfols.jpg

That is Shadow vs Hunter Rose (Grendel)

Here is Batman vs the Same Hunter Rose

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/7099/fYozXK.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/7752/pWBi1y.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/5119/XlaBpi.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img912/3091/SNWUeH.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/4808/V8Iee7.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/2493/8PLokO.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img912/2656/ODSoHV.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/9692/sLLhuA.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/3228/zrF7NJ.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/9335/uHur59.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img913/5605/f2ms8W.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/9797/TIrhtQ.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/2884/ulZClq.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/3064/w4qyf4.jpg

I'll be honest i didn't include the Batman/Grendel fight in our PM because obviously it's non canon (cross over) where Shadow is a public Domain Character. he does however appear in DC quite a bit AND in Batman.

These are just a few of the Shadow's appearances in Batman.

His stealth skill so great he could disappear several times from in front of Batman's eye's. His marksmanship able to take out a light bulb from across the street to give Bat's an edge or take down a plane with hand guns.

Some other skill showings

I deliberately crafted my build so I could still use ALL the feats pretty much of each character because even if they relied on the power or the body or skill that is different, I'd chosen one as good or a better one.

Shadow has dodged attacks from point blank, from behind and from those in hiding. Though I don't have his power I have the senses of Armstrong that are better plus the sight of Argus and the shadow meld of Argus that matches.

Argus can dodge things fired at him and predict where things will hit. Know things about people he has no right to know ("what evil lurks in the hearts of men", he can see it without "mental powers). Armstrong's body is faster than Argus', Shadow's honed reflexes are vastly better too.

Armstrong has dodged weapons at point blank in almost every appearance. In the scans i showed it wasn't even normal guns but energy blasters. It's even stated in his bio. And why wouldn't he when his whole schtick comes from how his mind sends and processes messages etc. While Bill Higgins is 10 ton strength, Armstrong has strength bursts that are never over 5 ton. Speed bursts etc.

So I'm curious to know what we "oversold/Stretched" or was it just the lacking information?

I think if we had included all the scans each of us had put up (the others had just as much omitted and I'm sure so did Fett's team) then getting through even a 2 post debate is going to be like reading war and peace.

I was pretty sure all we said was that I could react (and in doing so keep him busy until I got help). Since realistically I have every right to say I can know what he's capable of and predict his moves with Argus' sight. Have superior speed and reactions both through honed skill and body speed than Argus, have the knowledge of pressure points myself to know that when I see an attack aimed at one what it would mean, the speed to dodge AND the ability to adapt to such an attack and get beyond it. I fail to see how it's a stretch that I can keep him bust and avoid the damage he could do to me.

#4 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegrayghost:

Since the dude was part of a high profile book for the longest time, as a major player in the DCU.

He was not in it "for the longest time" - of the overall run Appeared in less than half the run. Also his only appearance in a major DC event was "day of Judgement

He was not a "major player" -, 1/4 those appearances were cameos or cover shots, a 1/3 of the rest 5 to 7 panels of the whole book at best. He was a "major player for about 5 issues and strong support character for 7.

Kent was a member of the JLA for 12 issues as well as one major company cross over (Legends - where he certainly was a major player) and two major JLA cross overs. A book that ranked between 3 to 25. He was in fact in Legends the character that established the JLA and collected the team.

Eric and Linda were JLA members for 8 issues as well as well as three major events (Millenium, Cosmic Odyssey, and Invasion)

Inza Nelson aside from solo run appeared in the events "war of the God's", "Panic in the sky", and Zero hour.

It's the same reason people don't assume you mean the likes of Congorilla and Starman when talking about the JLA, but Kyle and Wally

You know what, generally when one mentions a character in relation to a team and there are several version they take the version that was actually a member. Hector has NEVER been a JLAer, two other Fates have. Let's forget about the fact that there was an image and it's pretty easy to tell them apart.

Being part of critically acclaimed, influential runs does that for you.

yet two other versions of fate post COIE played a more major role in more acclaimed, influential titles and events, arguably all three. Your right, Hector is definitely the go too reference for post COIE Dr Fate.

"I'm going to claim Jay and Adam are simulteneously operating at both lightspeed....and mach 500 to work my way out of a corner rather than accept that I have been posting bullshit"

This is honestly some of the most hilarious attempts to cover up for rubbish that have ever seen

In the panel in question it mentions mach 1 and mach 500 in the same sentence (as they reach them). Did we assume that they were operating at both these speed simultaneously?? or did we read the issue and take in what the artwork told us.

Jay AFTER having absorbed Rival's kinetic energy. Same arc

No dude, Jay BEFORE absorbing Rivals energy.

First scan is the page before where Jay couldn't keep up with Rival and Couldn't save a young boy (wouldn't have been an issue if he'd stolen Rival's speed). Second scan is the page after where he steals Rival's speed, dumps him in the speed force and is home instantaneously. It's easy enough to tell all pages are NUMBERED for you. Don't choke on that pop corn now will you.

But I don't read the comic, make fallacious and out of context statements and lie.

Maybe you should try reading the comics. You talk about others high balling. Yet you low ball all the time. You aim every comment to a feat less or near feat less version. Hector has done only three or four notable things as Fate. Kent V has a better overall showing of averages.

FTR it was only about a week or so ago I was debating on another forum that Superman wasn't FTL. In a thread on ICT on hero chat asking if Superman was a top 10 speedster I didn't rate him top at all. I rated Zoom as 1, Wally, Barry, prof zoom, Runner, Makkari, Surfer, Crime Syndicate Johnny Quick, Majestic and Bart Allen as the top ten and Jay as 11. I didn't believe Superman was FTL. But I was shown feats that I researched and confirmed to be accurate showing he has traveled FTL.

It's called having an open mind, you should try it.

Considering hat I'm the one making comments on behalf of the DC team that isn't stating they win. That has pretty much said they go down to weight of numbers and have only contested the fact that anyone can solo.

For example your biggest argument for taking down Dr Fate is to remove his Helmet Yet here in one of the very few stories that hector hall (the Fate you so keen to use) actually plays a prominent role and this is done to

The very tactic you claim would end fate on this occasion (as is the case in almost all of the others) is what actually allowed Hector to totally dominate a being vastly more powerful than Surfer.

Every vestment of power removed from him and they are still his to control. His to wield. The same thing happened next time Mordru took the vestments (that time he trapped Hector in the amulet and still Hector retook control.)

And that's not the version of Fate who has other powers

Since I'm positive no more than 3 scans are from the same comic here, the full pages of Kent Nelson only wearing the half Helmet he forged when he gave up his helmet of power and operated from 1942 till the 1950/60's as another Superman Doppleganger.

Wont respond to anymore, because the walls of text are a problem for so many

I just love doing this stuff twice because of CV bugs too

#5 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackstaroblivion:

@thegrayghost said:

@beatboks1:

Hector Hall is considered the standard post crisis Fate if I'm not mistaken. Unless the OP specifically meant pre crisis versions

Since WHEN???

Hector has made a total of about 170 appearances (not counting reprinted tales) nearly 90 of which were as Silver Scarab and 30 as Sandman. All his appearances as Fate were in team books where he played a part role. So around 50 as Fate where he was a small part of the tale overall.

Eric Straus was Dr fate for 73 issues, including a run 21 issue Solo Series

Linda Straus was Fate for about a dozen appearances

Inza Nelson was fate for about 40 issues 21 solo and the rest in team ups in other solo books.

In terms of overall panel time Every other version of fate post COIE has had more play than Hector. Never mind the fact that the OP clearly listed "CLASSIC" which is the original Fate.

Hell Kent V has had more appearances as Fate than Hector.

In the second panel of the first page we see him start to transform into energy. The first sign of the "green streak coming off his wrist between him and BA. next panel more green less yellow, more green again in the next. When as you say he is totally energy the panel is almost all green around his face. The artwork clearly shows the process that "Starts to happen as you approach light speed" occurs in the panel where they mention mach 500.

Now

First scan is Wally, Clark and Jay all running side by Side without amp, speed steal or lend breaking the time barrier to return home from the 30th century. Second one is the super speedsters Blue moon who's speed and reactions match Powergirl who could only see a blur while no one else even saw Jay move. The next page he had to slow down and pace himself because of his heart condition.

Then there is this

That is Jay Garrick hearing the call of the speed force without amp. Something you only do at light speed. It was the following page of that issue (issue 17 of JSA) in which he stole Rival's speed to leave him trapped in the speed force (the second time he'd done that). The issue in which he stole BA's speed was three issues later, are we seriously saying that the character repeatedly demonstrated to not be able to hold stolen speed for long did so for a couple of days ( the battle with Extant hadn't even started yet)

Now for Superman FTL feats. I couldn't be bothered loading them all here so

Year one Superman likely breaks lightspeed – travels inter galactic and so far he can't even see with his telescopic vision the planet he was "exploded off" yet returns to it in the time he is almost out of air

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...ermanSpeed1.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...ermanSpeed2.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...ermanSpeed3.jpg

Intercepts an energy blast after it’s clearly fired, and he’s at a noticeable distance. It is confirmed that the weapons are beta-ray positron techonology and its blasts travel near-lightspeed.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...doutracing1.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...doutracing2.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...doutracing3.jpg

Speedblitz destroys the engines of a ship that was travelling at "extra saturated lightspeed”.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...lightspeed1.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...lightspeed2.jpg

Reaches lightspeed twice inside a blackhole.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...dblackhole1.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...dblackhole2.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...dblackhole3.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...dblackhole4.jpg

The narration says he can go faster than light at will. He only goes near-lightspeed, delivering something akin to an IMP.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...ia/supesftl.jpg

Flies to the edge of the Andromeda Galaxy (2.5 million light years away).

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...agalaxyship.jpg

Gets to Darkseid, when it is stated in the same issue that Wally and Barry need to go beyond lightspeed in order to do so.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...ftlsupesds1.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...ftlsupesds2.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...ftlsupesds3.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...ftlsupesds4.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...ftlsupesds5.jpg

Recognizes and reacts at Barry Allen passing by him at superluminal speeds.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...esbarryftl1.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums...esbarryftl2.jpg

I had about 30 more but couldn't give a crap anymore because you'll both just disregard. I also have about 8 more for jay post COIE.

#6 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@aurelian said:

How powerful was Mordru when Alan defeated him?

Ahh... good question for @beatboks1. =)

The two times when Alan matched and held Mordru off he was at his standard 20th century non amped level. Honestly it's a rarity for him to only be this, his MO is to steal power from others and to defeat his opponents with their own power like

  1. fighting Shazam on the Rock of Eternity using the power of the rock itself
  2. Fighting the JSA having stolen Dr Fate's power AND Alan's
  3. Stealing the power of after killing several lords of order and chaos to kill Jarred Stephens "Fate" who's power came from both
  4. Fighting the LoSH in the 30th century after stealing the magic of half the wizards of Sorcerers world
  5. Stealing half the power of Infinity man (the living embodiment of all time and space)
@aurelian said:

Is Thunderbolt as powerful as other IMPs?

If you mean Mxy etc , NO. He's not an imp he's a5th dimensional djinn, different race of the dimension with greater limitations.

#7 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackstaroblivion:

no your not being punked, and your right the scans are pretty clear.

In each panel we see the spped mentioned as it's achieved.

mach 1, mach 500, half the speed of light.

Then we see it at the top left corner of the panel say 186,000 miles per hour the speed of light.

Thers a gap and then the discussion kver what happens as you reach the speed of light. A discussion about what clearly began in the earlier panel when he discussed mach 500. That was the first sign of the usual yellow lightning tuning green which became more and more as he broke light speed.

As for the contradiction, is speed steal not a power of jay's?

Is it not within his power to do?

clearly he doesnt need to steal speed from someone who is FTL or even as fast as him to achieve FTL (which IIRC is how he first entered the discussion to begin with, someone/grayghost I think said said you had to be much faster than someone to steal their speed which is just wrong

Im not sure why I'm the one getting so much of the directed responses. I've not even says who wins. While ive put up stuff for the DC team I dint believe they can win with this many against them and have said so all along.

I just disagree with so many this person solos, that team etc. When you consider that one member of the JLa team has the power and diversity to face a couple of the heavy weights simultaneously no single team can solo this line up without Fate probably they could.

Lets review the arguments thus far put forward for taking Fate down.

1. Take off his helmet. Still leaves a superman level brick who's indestructible with tk, tp, danger/ mystic sense, who controls his own molecules and can create energy blasts. Who still kmows magic and stil has magic talismans.

2. Speed blitz, since with the helmet no harm can really befall him and without it he can only be put down by suffocation (which takes 3 to 4 minutes) that means that he still has 3 to 4 minutes to do something about it before he falls. given that the Helm can be summoned to him sort of negates the attack

3. Matter manip him into non existence, how is it logical that this can be done to someoen who has control of their own atoms/molecules?

Can a group of the heavy hitters in the team occupy Fate? Absolitely, but thats why no one can solo or team can solo. It would practically take the Anhilators alone to keep Fate busy while others piled on the rest. Then once one more heavy hitter joins in they could possibly take fate. Remember fate fought the spectre to a standstill for 7 pages before he used his stare on him. If we take the powerdown of Spectre post COIE and apply they same level to Fate being lowered in power that still makes him able to hold his own against Spectre for a pitched battle that lasts a while.

#8 Edited by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio
@blackstaroblivion said:

Not that I'm ignoring your previous stuff about Fate....as I mentioned, I'll reserve judgment until I've read up on Fate myself.

@beatboks1 said:

As for the stuff about Jay, I never said he was FTL. Your statement was that he is slower than light when in fact he can go Light speed. As I said it showed him going light speed in the scan before he stole BA's speed. Slower than and exactly light speed are two different things.

You seem confused.

Jay, by his own admission is slower than the speed of light. In order to enter the time stream, one has to be able to at least reach the speed of light....something Jay was incapable of until he stole Black Adam's speed. The narration simply points to what happens as Jay approaches the speed of light. Those scans are very clear:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You also said he can't enter the time stream under his own power.

That's correct. I did. And the scans above will confirm that. 1) Jay said he couldn't go achieve the superluminal velocities. If he could reach light speed on his own, he could've entered the time stream on his own. Why steal Black Adam's speed if he could achieve superluminal velocities then enter the time stream? You're missing on this one. Big time.

And the scan in the middle describes the relativistic effects of approaching light speed...not surpassing it.

It was quite clear that he was planning and going to punch a hole in the fabric of time and space. he didn't know how he would get back and terrific suggested following BA's energy signature. He did this but just happened to lock onto BA in the past. The plan was to punch a hole in time and space under Garricks own power and he did. After only that one time doing it he had no problem repeating it without a treadmill and returning home.

Are you kidding me with this response? If he could navigate time under his own power, why did he end up in the past? He was told to use Black Adam's energy signature to return to them in the present....but lost track of where he was in time....and tethered to Black Adam of the past.

The plan...was to steal Black Adam's speed then achieve superluminal velocities and enter the time stream.

Hello???

So...yeah, everything I said in the first place....is right on the money.

@beatboks1 said:

So clearly he can enter the time stream under his own power, that's twice he's done it to prove it. Superman is acknowledged as faster than Jay ( Jay HAD to steal his speed to get ahead of him), after stealing his speed which would slow Superman Clark still caught up to him.

What scans do you have that say Superman is faster than Jay Garrick? Where is this? Superman most certainly cannot react faster than light speed, much less enter the time stream. The only version of Superman that could enter the time stream was silver age Superman.

I have never said that Jay is Wally's equal he most certainly is not ( I did say that the three of them were about the same speed, but we all know Wally is capable of more). Wally can enter the speed force completely under his own steam, Jay runs along the edge of it under his own steam and needs to steal a little speed to enter it. Superman is faster than Jay (that was why Jay needed to steal speed to get ahead of him). So if Jay can go light speed (which he can) than Superman can go FTL. I was simply questioning your statement that Jay can't enter the time stream under his own power when he's done it twice.

What?

You don't skirt the edge of the speed force unless you can cross the light speed barrier....which Jay cannot do. You can't be serious with this response?

And I want to see the scans you are relying on for Superman's faster than light reaction speed.

Slow down. Read the scans again from JSA. And you lack a severe fundamental understanding about entering the time stream. This much as become clear.

Now one last little question for you.

This is from the OP. From the underlined if they are convinced that everyone is evil while their MU counterpart are only aware a battle is imminent after an exchange of words, wouldn't that mean that the team are prepared for battle more so than the MU team?? I mean you asked if Fate has auto shielding (not that he needs it being physically invulnerable and immortal and all) but even without if he believes everything to be evil wouldn't he have shields raised under the mandate set??

Again I'm not saying that the JLA wins, against odds like this I don't see how they can. I also don't see how the Marvel team finished Fate, and none of the ideas put forward for me work. All I've said all along is no team or individual listed can solo the JLA team under the stipulations. Dr fate has every power Surfer has except speed and a multitude more, how can Surfer solo him and a few others? Especially given that the JLA team will be partially ready for a fight (intending to start one) and will be going all out from the outset.

No, he wouldn't shields raised as it isn't specifically stated in the OP. Pretty simple.

As mentioned, I'll wait until I read up on Doctor Fate myself before I give any concrete responses about him.

My responses on Jay Garrick, light speed and entering the time stream should be clear if you examine the scans.

To enter the time stream, you have achieve or exceed light speed THEN make a conscious decision to enter the time stream. Jay was not capable of doing so, hence stole Black Adam's speed. Even when he entered the time stream, he got lost in the past. Obviously, Jay cannot achieve light speed, much less navigate time successfully under his own power.

Your own scans show exactly what I was talking about.

In your second scan third panel he is "near light speed" fourth panel he is "transforming from mass to energy" The thing that happens when you are at light speed. Third scan second panel is when he steals BA's speed and actually goes Faster Than Light (Superluminal - super means greater, to be placed above or over. lumninal - The unit of luminous flux, equal to the amount of light per unit time passing through a solid angle of one steradian from a light source of one candela intensity radiating equally in all directions.).

I never mentioned "PASSING LIGHT SPEED" under his own power.

Jay said he can't go Superluminal which he can't, he can't go FTL. Yet in the very scans you posted he goes Light speed under his own power (pretty much the limit of it)

Where id I say anywhere that Jay could navigate the time stream??? I didn't under his own power without a speed steal he can't even enter it. I simply said he isn't slower than light, and you yourself provided the proof. In the very scans you loaded it shows him achieving light speed BEFORE stealing speed.

So what I've said is right on the money too, because I never said he could navigate time.He's not even in the thread.

It's his age and heart condition that limits him AND the change that makes anyone approaching the speed force get sucked into it. Simple fact is Max Mercury has time jumped severarl times in his history and he's notably slower than Jay.

The feat with Abra Kadabra, Jay had to steal Superman's speed to get in front of him (to that point Jay was behind). Then even with some of his speed stolen Supes catches Jay. So A speed reduced Supes can catch an Amped Jay who can go FTL (because when he speed steals he can). I don't have the scans but I've been shown them. One also doesn't travel 2.5 million light years in a reasonable time frame as Superman did in Superman/Supergil if you can't breach the speed of light and time stream.

The thing is shields for Fate are basically unimportant when he is functionally indestructible AND immortal.

#9 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@randomsid:

Ahh what you said here

"And none of that matters because the set-up for this fight says that both teams know that the fight is going to happen. There would be no reason for Surfer not to use his super speed except for PIS which is against the rules of this forum."

Isn't correct. Both teams arent aware there is going to be a fight under the set up. The JLA tea firmly believe that everything in this universe is evil from the outset and are bent in all out. The Marvel team are aware that there will be a fight after an exchange of words.

One team is prepared one not, and your posting that to the OP who was explaining just that.

Your final argument that Sufer is fighting less powerful beings falls down when you cinsider that Dr Fate is vastly more powerful than him, can gain knowledge every bit as easy as Surfer can through cosmic knowledge, can energy and matter manipulate on the same scale, is in the same league as superman in physicals, can push planets around like nothing with TK, has created blasts felt on an omniversal scale (actually created a blast that was felt in three separate universes), has fought the Spectre and held his own for 7 pages, has magic on the level of Classic Strange, and is immortal and unable to be killed.

#10 Posted by beatboks1 (8023 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackstaroblivion:

For now I will reserve judgment. Flash 313 occurred pre Crisis....big difference than his post Crisis counter part.

Actually for Kent Nelson their wasn't, not due to COIE.

Kent was depowered by COIE. Post crisis he was shown to finally be able to be killed however. This was stated at the time to be because he had been the entity of fate during the Kali Yuga (time of Chaos) when he had to wield more magic than any other and burn up his body faster.

Sorry I though I loaded all three pages. The line directly after " your host body has weakened and at long last" on the next page was "you can be killed" v . Clearly indicating that until then he couldn't be.

This was from the first issue of the first post COIE series that was solely about fate in which he hands on the mantle to Eric and Linda Strauss. The reason for this was as stated in the second scan of the two small ones that he had wielded so much more power than any previous host burning out the body faster. (oh and just in case your wondering about his disappearing against his will, that was the Lords of order summoning him 2 pages before the second of the two scans above)

Another reason was retconned in retroactively later on in a GL story called the last temptation of Kent Nelson.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Lamashtar/drfate19.jpg

A portion of Kent has sequestered itself in Hal's ring. That small part of Kent was able to work magic and save Hal from Certain death and send him where he needed to be. That piece of Kent had the choice of returning to itself in the past with a glimpse of the future and potentially saving Kent's wife (and returning to him the piece lost that weakened him), but Kent believed it was their to fulfill it's fate and that he couldn't change his wife's either.

Additionally other post COIE appearances like Legends and the ark vs the grey man showed him at the same power levels as pre COIE. For example, one of the instances of him having his Helm removed was from Legends where we saw him unharmed from an attack and fly without the helm.

Forum rules state (since your fond of quoting them)

When these things are left out it’s generally assumed that characters are fighting to the best of their ability but still within the limits of their personality, using their standard gear, have no prep time, and are their current mainstream versions at the time of the thread's conception. Their starting distance is close and the setting is most often a city. The accepted win conditions are death, KO, and BFR (Battlefield Removal). Without any specifications to a battle, those are what we go by. It’s always best to give as much information about the fight in the first post.

The OP stated

Everyone is their standard/classic versions (no amped or powered-up versions)

and later clarified that it was Classic Fate again. The "Standard" and "Classic" of Kent nelson is unable to be killed. So we take Kent (the Classic version of Fate) at his standard power level. since the period that he wasn't immortal was a powered down version it would not be acceptable any more than if I took the time he merged with his wife to amp his power to defeat the two reality warpers in the scans in previous posts.

Hell the simple fact of the matter is two later versions of Fate who are recognized as less powerful than Kent have durability showings that match that of the pre COIE one I showed.

The Lords of order had commissioned Andrew Bennett to bring about the end of creation, the Mahapralaya. Bennett acquired an artifact that the LOO had lead him too (one Nabu had been protecting), and used it to end creation. Everything blinked out of existence and only Bennett (possessing the artifact) and fate survived. Fate of course survived because his power comes from both Order (Helm of Nabu and cloak of destiny) and Chaos ( amulet of Anubis). The very same reason Jarred Stephens as Fate survived just about everything.

Strauss fate was vastly below Kent in showings and even the end of creation, destruction of everything couldn't harm him, yet the Marvel team here will by a speed blitz?? I suppose that is also inconsistent with the showings I given hey?

The canon of the character is that he can't be destroyed be it pre or post COIE, only making the host reject him can he be and that's simply not an option for the team.

Hmmmm. And again, some of these scans look pre Crisis. I was under the impression this was post Crisis feats only???

The events of Ultra's war on America (the tale that those scans are from) directly ties into and is an integral part of post COIE Infinity Incorporated canon. it is heavily referenced by Infinity Inc throughout it's post COIE series. All of that still happened otherwise some members of II don't even exist (like Atom Smasher/NUklon, who's Cyclotron's grandchild).

As for the stuff about Jay, I never said he was FTL. Your statement was that he is slower than light when in fact he can go Light speed. As I said it showed him going light speed in the scan before he stole BA's speed. Slower than and exactly light speed are two different things.You also said he can't enter the time stream under his own power.

It was quite clear that he was planning and going to punch a hole in the fabric of time and space. he didn't know how he would get back and terrific suggested following BA's energy signature. He did this but just happened to lock onto BA in the past. The plan was to punch a hole in time and space under Garricks own power and he did. After only that one time doing it he had no problem repeating it without a treadmill and returning home.

So clearly he can enter the time stream under his own power, that's twice he's done it to prove it. Superman is acknowledged as faster than Jay ( Jay HAD to steal his speed to get ahead of him), after stealing his speed which would slow Superman Clark still caught up to him.

I have never said that Jay is Wally's equal he most certainly is not ( I did say that the three of them were about the same speed, but we all know Wally is capable of more). Wally can enter the speed force completely under his own steam, Jay runs along the edge of it under his own steam and needs to steal a little speed to enter it. Superman is faster than Jay (that was why Jay needed to steal speed to get ahead of him). So if Jay can go light speed (which he can) than Superman can go FTL. I was simply questioning your statement that Jay can't enter the time stream under his own power when he's done it twice.

Now one last little question for you.

This JLA team suddenly finds themselves in the Marvel universe. Some unknown force has altered their minds so that they are convinced everyone they find in this new universe is evil and must be stopped at any cost.

The team goes down to Earth and find all these Marvel teams gathered there. After an exchange of words it's clear to both sides that a battle is about to begin. The JLA team is bloodlusted and willing to do anything to win. Everyone else is in character.

This is from the OP. From the underlined if they are convinced that everyone is evil while their MU counterpart are only aware a battle is imminent after an exchange of words, wouldn't that mean that the team are prepared for battle more so than the MU team?? I mean you asked if Fate has auto shielding (not that he needs it being physically invulnerable and immortal and all) but even without if he believes everything to be evil wouldn't he have shields raised under the mandate set??

Again I'm not saying that the JLA wins, against odds like this I don't see how they can. I also don't see how the Marvel team finished Fate, and none of the ideas put forward for me work. All I've said all along is no team or individual listed can solo the JLA team under the stipulations. Dr fate has every power Surfer has except speed and a multitude more, how can Surfer solo him and a few others? Especially given that the JLA team will be partially ready for a fight (intending to start one) and will be going all out from the outset.