I agree 90% on this and will put a 4th one get a writer who gets the character better and doesn't resource on only mining old stories like Black Mirror and Killing Joke

Btw

It is time for her to put on her big girl tights, stop monologuing like a teenager on Twitter, and show some maturity.

this is beautiful writing right here, just absolutely gorgeous

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought Simone was staying on this title is there going to be a new writer or something?

@arnoldoaad said:

I agree 90% on this and will put a 4th one get a writer who gets the character better and doesn't resource on only mining old stories like Black Mirror and Killing Joke

Btw

It is time for her to put on her big girl tights, stop monologuing like a teenager on Twitter, and show some maturity.

this is beautiful writing right here, just absolutely gorgeous

Thanks. I sent this article to Simone hoping she would RT me, but I guess she didn't appreciate it. (grins) Too bad. She has a massive following. She RT one review of mine and I instantly got four hundred or so hits on my site. However, I'm not going to turn temper criticism just in the hope that she will pass it on. I was hoping this would have more good than bad, but...yeah, I guess not.

Do you think Simone did a good job with Birds of Prey, and if so, what changed? I have not read much of her work beyond Batgirl.

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to see the family restored to its former glory. Maybe on Earth 2? I'm still holding my breath for a reboot reboot.

@SUNMAN said:

I thought Simone was staying on this title is there going to be a new writer or something?

She will be leaving for two issues and then resume writing the series. I'm guessing that DC had already signed a contract during Simone's "firing" with the guy writing those two issues, so even when Simone was rehired, there will still be a break for her writing.

@BatWatch said:

@arnoldoaad said:

I agree 90% on this and will put a 4th one get a writer who gets the character better and doesn't resource on only mining old stories like Black Mirror and Killing Joke

Btw

It is time for her to put on her big girl tights, stop monologuing like a teenager on Twitter, and show some maturity.

this is beautiful writing right here, just absolutely gorgeous

Thanks. I sent this article to Simone hoping she would RT me, but I guess she didn't appreciate it. (grins) Too bad. She has a massive following. She RT one review of mine and I instantly got four hundred or so hits on my site. However, I'm not going to turn temper criticism just in the hope that she will pass it on. I was hoping this would have more good than bad, but...yeah, I guess not.

Do you think Simone did a good job with Birds of Prey, and if so, what changed? I have not read much of her work beyond Batgirl.

Look, if you have something to criticize about, DO IT ON FULL, otherwise it wouldnt be real criticism, I could add 10 different things to that list without braking a sweat

about Gail Simone work, this is something i said in another thread, if she has a a writer is in writing a compelling supporting cast, including villains, she just dont know how to make anyone but the main characters interesting, which is why she does a much better job with team books, because one thing she does really good is that interaction between different characters and it works brilliantly in teambooks because those characters are constantly there and that interaction eventually becomes character development for all of them

You can see this in Birds of Prey and Secret Six, S6 is just a master piece, and the Cat in the Craddle story is the best thing she has ever written.

if you look her work at Wonder Woman, you might be entertein with Diana but couldnt care less about Nemesis, or Hippolyta or anyone else, is 90%-95% of the time with Wonder Woman fighting the villain of the week

same thing happens here, we had mckeena, the roommate and the stupid mom, and all can die next issue, I really think no one will care, even the biggest fan will not give 2 cents to Alycia cause 17-18 issues she had 0 development, and thats the most prominent of the supporting cast

In Birds of Prey, you care about Zinda, about Oracle, about Dinah, About Helena, all are important, and if one of them bores you, we have more options, with Batgirl, is the batgirl show all day long

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would love to see the family restored to its former glory. Maybe on Earth 2? I'm still holding my breath for a reboot reboot.

god no!

it is already bad enough that Simone created a zombie copy of Cassandra Cain as Mary, I want her back in the main Universe

@SUNMAN said:

I thought Simone was staying on this title is there going to be a new writer or something?

She will be leaving for two issues and then resume writing the series. I'm guessing that DC had already signed a contract during Simone's "firing" with the guy writing those two issues, so even when Simone was rehired, there will still be a break for her writing.

There is no contracts with Ray Fawkes

the story is pretty much like this

Gail Simone wrote something on issues 17-18-19, no one knows what exactly.

And the editor Brian Cunningham didnt allowed her to do that because he wanted another direction, requested the thing to be rewritten, and Gail refused, which is what got her fired

Ray Fawkes is writing the same plot that Gail Simone put there for issues 18-19, but rewritten with the direction of Brian Cunningham

Issue 17 is going to be fixed by an unknown writer obviously because of the time It cant be completely corrected by Fawkes, i guess the plot is practically 80% as what Gail intended with dialog of the new writer(which i guess is automatically a plus) and to set up for the new direction on issues 18-19

I really really want to know what exactly was Simone messing with that Cunningham had to take her off and rewrote the entire arc but my guess is that it had to do with James Jr

and from what I heard about Ray Fawkes, he sounds like an excellent writer

I actually like this series of Batgirl. It's not perfect, and has changed quite a few things, but it has been very fun, and I've enjoyed it. I was never a big fan of Batgirl prior to this preferring Barbara as Oracle, but have loved seeing her as Batgirl once more. Agree that she should stop using the victim card. I'd also like to see Stephanie Brown back, as I really enjoyed her, whether as Batgirl or Spoiler (but preferably Spoiler).

I actually think it would be interesting to introduce either Cassandra, or Stephanie, as a copy cat Batirl, with it being a mystery who the second one is. Obviously in the finish you'd only have one Batgirl, but it would be interesting (at least in my opinion, and if done right). They could have either one as the copy cat and have them revert to their other known alias' (Spoiler for Stephanie, Black Bat for Cassandra) at the end of the story. Or just cripple Barbara again, but that would be a bit of a waste.

Honestly, the way she's acting, it's like they basically took Stephanie Brown and gave her personality to Barbara, which begs the question, why get rid of Steph in the first place?

@arnoldoaad:

Well, you have a lot more criticisms than I do about Batgirl. The only other things I kind of wanted to say is that Batgirl really needs better villains, but that was somewhat rolled into point three.

I criticize to the amount that I feel is useful. I could be much more cutting in my remarks, but it would just be for shock value rather than in an effort to actually give constructive criticism.

Your perspective on Birds of Prey and Secret Six is very interesting. I have not read much Birds of Prey, and I’ve never even touched Secret Six, so its nice to have an opinion from somebody who enjoyed those books.

Alycia might be reveled to be a tranny soon, so that might lead to some character development.

I would prefer to see Cassandra in the regular universe as well, but since they seem so determined not to have more than one Batgirl in this reality, I thought we might see her or Stephanie in Earth-2.

Where do you get all your information for the reason Simone was fired?

@johnkmccubbin91 said:

I actually like this series of Batgirl. It's not perfect, and has changed quite a few things, but it has been very fun, and I've enjoyed it. I was never a big fan of Batgirl prior to this preferring Barbara as Oracle, but have loved seeing her as Batgirl once more. Agree that she should stop using the victim card. I'd also like to see Stephanie Brown back, as I really enjoyed her, whether as Batgirl or Spoiler (but preferably Spoiler).

I actually think it would be interesting to introduce either Cassandra, or Stephanie, as a copy cat Batirl, with it being a mystery who the second one is. Obviously in the finish you'd only have one Batgirl, but it would be interesting (at least in my opinion, and if done right). They could have either one as the copy cat and have them revert to their other known alias' (Spoiler for Stephanie, Black Bat for Cassandra) at the end of the story. Or just cripple Barbara again, but that would be a bit of a waste.

It definitely seems like DC could easily get Stephanie back in the swing of things by making her spoiler. The elimination of her character is perplexing.

I enjoy Batgirl now, but I think the Mirror story line was laughably bad. I tried to read it to my girlfriend who usually enjoys comics, and she feel asleep twice on two different occasions. I gave up at that point and just read it myself. Anyway, everything after Gretel has been at least okay or better, but I cannot defend anything prior to that.

@The Stegman said:

Honestly, the way she's acting, it's like they basically took Stephanie Brown and gave her personality to Barbara, which begs the question, why get rid of Steph in the first place?

I don't know. Steph was less confident in herself, but she was firey. If you push her, she would push back. She was not much for detective work, and Batgirl seems a lot more reflective than Steph to me. It feels to me that Babs is not necessarily more like Stephanie, but just more generic.

@BatWatch said:

@arnoldoaad:

Well, you have a lot more criticisms than I do about Batgirl. The only other things I kind of wanted to say is that Batgirl really needs better villains, but that was somewhat rolled into point three.

I criticize to the amount that I feel is useful. I could be much more cutting in my remarks, but it would just be for shock value rather than in an effort to actually give constructive criticism.

still you put an honest constructive criticism on this, if it is still constructive you should feel ashame that maybe it was a little rude

Your perspective on Birds of Prey and Secret Six is very interesting. I have not read much Birds of Prey, and I’ve never even touched Secret Six, so its nice to have an opinion from somebody who enjoyed those books.

I highly recommend Secret Six, its Gail's Starman

Alycia might be reveled to be a tranny soon, so that might lead to some character development.

Lol, Whut!, where does hat come from

I would prefer to see Cassandra in the regular universe as well, but since they seem so determined not to have more than one Batgirl in this reality, I thought we might see her or Stephanie in Earth-2.

they dont need to be batgirl, I would love to see Bruce meeting Cassandra again and being young enough to explore a quasi robin relationship with her

you know, cause Oracle was the mother figure of Cass, without her you only have Bruce, I think it would open a good niche there to be a "daughter" of batman cause that was never explored beforw

Where do you get all your information for the reason Simone was fired?

pretty much a lot of speculation based on the facts that were shown during that time, and a ton of time discussing this on bleedingcool when it came out

we do know that she had an argument with the Editor, that is a fact, and because of that argument chps 17-19 had to be rewritten

thats not normal on any firing situation because you have to understand that comics are written with a period of 3-4 months before they are released, so when chp 17 was solicited with Gail as the writer of it, the scripts for chps 18-19 were already done

had she been fire in normal situations, chp 19 would had been her final chp, but that didnt happen, and chps 18-19 had to be written by her because by the time Bleedingcool shown the first article rumoring the departure of Gail, Gail responded that she wasnt leaving, then she get the email on wednesday of that same week that she was out of the book and that chp 16 was her final

which means that someone leak the info before it got to gail, which is normal cause a ton of people need to be mobilized to make this kind of sudden change, they need a new writer for chp 16-17, new artists, new inkers, new letterer.

its just a huge effort to just get rid of a writer

so

Either Gail did something unprofessional that we dont know about which got her fired and if that was the case then i see no reason why she was rehired

or it all have to do with this 3 chps and possibly the overall direction that she was taking for the comic

maybe there is a third possibility but i dont know what could it be

what we do know is that chps 17-19 were partially to completely rewritten to fit Cunningham's direction, and if they were written by another writer that had to be because Gail didnt approve of the changes, and considering that her contract expired around the same week, Brian just choose to get rid of her.

Another theory, which is not mine btw, is that the disagreement was based on how Barb recover her leg mobility, that editorial(not just Brian) doesnt want the story to be out or have a different approach, because actually that was suppose to be the second arc, but it keeps getting push back again and again and again.

@johnkmccubbin91 said:

I actually like this series of Batgirl. It's not perfect, and has changed quite a few things, but it has been very fun, and I've enjoyed it. I was never a big fan of Batgirl prior to this preferring Barbara as Oracle, but have loved seeing her as Batgirl once more. Agree that she should stop using the victim card. I'd also like to see Stephanie Brown back, as I really enjoyed her, whether as Batgirl or Spoiler (but preferably Spoiler).

I actually think it would be interesting to introduce either Cassandra, or Stephanie, as a copy cat Batirl, with it being a mystery who the second one is. Obviously in the finish you'd only have one Batgirl, but it would be interesting (at least in my opinion, and if done right). They could have either one as the copy cat and have them revert to their other known alias' (Spoiler for Stephanie, Black Bat for Cassandra) at the end of the story. Or just cripple Barbara again, but that would be a bit of a waste.

It definitely seems like DC could easily get Stephanie back in the swing of things by making her spoiler. The elimination of her character is perplexing.

I enjoy Batgirl now, but I think the Mirror story line was laughably bad. I tried to read it to my girlfriend who usually enjoys comics, and she feel asleep twice on two different occasions. I gave up at that point and just read it myself. Anyway, everything after Gretel has been at least okay or better, but I cannot defend anything prior to that.

I want to heard your opinion on this cause i think Grethel is just a terrible villain

she this really "tragic" story, very dark and realistic

and then

she gets shot in the head, and that gives her superpowers

that ridiculous backstory is the only think that stuck to me with the character

@The Stegman said:

Honestly, the way she's acting, it's like they basically took Stephanie Brown and gave her personality to Barbara, which begs the question, why get rid of Steph in the first place?

I don't know. Steph was less confident in herself, but she was firey. If you push her, she would push back. She was not much for detective work, and Batgirl seems a lot more reflective than Steph to me. It feels to me that Babs is not necessarily more like Stephanie, but just more generic.

also Steph was funny

her inner dialog was hilarious on sometimes but also cause the book was suppose to be funny, there are points on Gail's Batgirl that she thinks stuff that I think is suppose to be funny or cute or whatever, like the "I feel like i want to pee" line in issue one, but it is not funny or cute

and i think part of the problem is cause she is portray as a young girl, but she is shown as mature woman, so it just comes as an infantilization of the character

I actually liked the "victim" "immature" mentality. What's a common complaint we hear about guys like Superman or Captain America? "They're too perfect!" Simone made it so that Barbara wasn't. Guess what you can do when a character is like that? Yes..you can develop them! (Hooray!) Simone, IMHO, was clearly headed that way. (LIke when Canary tried to literally slap her out of it.) Now, since comics only come out once a month, a year seems like a long time for a character to be stuck in that mode...but it isn't, it's still only 12 issues. Besides, there is no time limit on character growth, it's not like "Been a year, time for Batgirl to grow-up." Character development should be event-driven..something happens that causes the character to develop. Simone is actually very much following the blueprint for story telling. Seems most folks want to pick up an issue..and presto-changeo, a different Batgirl. I like the way Gail's doing it better.

Aa for her secondary characters, I think she does pretty well with them actually. But I don't read any solo book for the supporting cast. (And I read very few team books) I could say "Snyder is better at this than Gail", but that's hardly fair. Batman has a whole list of secondary characters and villains that were already interesting long before Snyder came along. Batgirl has none of that, and thus, no Batgirl villain will ever seem as interesting to us as Joker...or even Two-Face or Riddler for that matter.

@arnoldoaad:

I understand what your view on poor quality work deserving a little rudeness, but I don't agree. Granted, I'm not going to tippy-toe around criticisms, but I'm not going to say something just for the sake of insult either. I try to focus on criticiszing the work and not the person as much as possible. It's a delicate balance, and I my stance is still in development. I might end up being harsher or nicer, but I never want to lose sight that the people who make these comics have feelings.

I'll keep an eye out for the Secret Six.

Simone tweeted that a trans character is definitely on the way for Batgirl. Many are speculating Alysia though I do not really see any reason for her except that she is Asian and there are a lot of Asian crossdressers.

Here is the BatWatch link.

Your theories on the Simone firing are all interesting. I did wonder if the transsexual character might have been a factor. I can't see why DC or Simone would throw a hissy fit over how Babs recovered.

Oh, I fully agree that Gretel was horribly written. I mean, 338! Really? Awful. I said it got better after the bit with Gretel though I did actually enjoy the Gretel story a little more than Mirror. The Mirror arch had no redeeming qualities, but at least Gretel got us an interesting fight between Babs and Bruce and some interesting interactions between the two. But her powers, motivation and incessant 338 nonsense. Complete crap!

I totally agree that Simone occasionally makes comments for Babs which are not amusing in the slightest but apparently supposed to be. I think Steph-girl would kick Babs-girl's butt. Not necessarily in a fight but just because of her mopey attitude. Get over it!

@Manwhohaseverything said:

I actually liked the "victim" "immature" mentality. What's a common complaint we hear about guys like Superman or Captain America? "They're too perfect!" Simone made it so that Barbara wasn't. Guess what you can do when a character is like that? Yes..you can develop them! (Hooray!) Simone, IMHO, was clearly headed that way. (LIke when Canary tried to literally slap her out of it.) Now, since comics only come out once a month, a year seems like a long time for a character to be stuck in that mode...but it isn't, it's still only 12 issues. Besides, there is no time limit on character growth, it's not like "Been a year, time for Batgirl to grow-up." Character development should be event-driven..something happens that causes the character to develop. Simone is actually very much following the blueprint for story telling. Seems most folks want to pick up an issue..and presto-changeo, a different Batgirl. I like the way Gail's doing it better.

Aa for her secondary characters, I think she does pretty well with them actually. But I don't read any solo book for the supporting cast. (And I read very few team books) I could say "Snyder is better at this than Gail", but that's hardly fair. Batman has a whole list of secondary characters and villains that were already interesting long before Snyder came along. Batgirl has none of that, and thus, no Batgirl villain will ever seem as interesting to us as Joker...or even Two-Face or Riddler for that matter.

It's a fair point that Barbara really has not had that much time in the suit to get over her issues, and I agree that development can come from this. On the flip side, Babs had three years to get over it, and it feels like she has still just started on the path to recovery. Also, I just don't find many of Babs actions or thoughts to be mature even for her scarred state. I don't feel like she is a mature enough person to be fighting crime is what I suppose I am getting at.

I don't want an instant change, but I would like her to stop wallowing. That does not need to be a long process. If she wants to struggle with PTSD, so be it, but decide you will not be defined by it.

Also, I don't think it is true that new villains cannot be interesting. Using Robin as an example, I quite like both The General and Anarky who got most of their development in Tim's series. Saiko was a good villain for Nightwing. Deathstroke is a great villain from the Titans. Dodge was an interesting villain created just for Robin as was the mysterious assassin assassin who never had a name to my knowledge. Knightfall was interesting to me, but Mirror and 338 girl? Uh, no.

@BatWatch said:

@arnoldoaad:

I understand what your view on poor quality work deserving a little rudeness, but I don't agree. Granted, I'm not going to tippy-toe around criticisms, but I'm not going to say something just for the sake of insult either. I try to focus on criticiszing the work and not the person as much as possible. It's a delicate balance, and I my stance is still in development. I might end up being harsher or nicer, but I never want to lose sight that the people who make these comics have feelings.

Im not saying that you should insult people, you shouldnt, but you should be direct when you have a complain, and you are direct here, you should not feel ashame to be direct

I'll keep an eye out for the Secret Six.

I specially recommend the Cat in the Craddle story, like i said, Its the best thing Simone has written in her entire career, its just the stick that is used to meassure other stories of her

Simone tweeted that a trans character is definitely on the way for Batgirl. Many are speculating Alysia though I do not really see any reason for her except that she is Asian and there are a lot of Asian crossdressers.

Here is the BatWatch link.

...

what!

hold on, Alysia is Asian!...

no she isnt, honestly im pretty sure she isnt, she is not drawn as an Asian at all, im positive she isnt Asian

Im really laughing as im reading this, there is just so much wrong in this. how come i never heard of this, does she mean that a transexual character is going to appear on the book or that is going to be part of the none-existent supporting cast, and why would her being asian would mean that is more likely that she is trans

or worst case scenario, is a villain that is trans and is once again victimized like everyone else, I just stop thinking this will backfire so hard on any possible case.

btw, there is no link here

Your theories on the Simone firing are all interesting. I did wonder if the transsexual character might have been a factor. I can't see why DC or Simone would throw a hissy fit over how Babs recovered.

Maybe because they still havent decided to bring back Oracle or not in any particular way, or maybe they dont like the way she is doing it, there are many reasons but i still think that it is because of issues17-19

I dont think the trans might be factor, there was a transexual character in Mister Terrific.

Oh, I fully agree that Gretel was horribly written. I mean, 338! Really? Awful. I said it got better after the bit with Gretel though I did actually enjoy the Gretel story a little more than Mirror. The Mirror arch had no redeeming qualities, but at least Gretel got us an interesting fight between Babs and Bruce and some interesting interactions between the two. But her powers, motivation and incessant 338 nonsense. Complete crap!

meh, I still think it sucks only because of the "you were always meant to be batgirl"

just what the hell was Gail thinking with that line

Issue 7 was forgettable, issue 8 is one of the worst comics i have ever in my life, is abysmally bad, if you want to know why i explain it here

issue 9 same problems of victimization with mary, and i honestly thought that her take on Commissioner Gordon was atrocious, he gets threaten a random guy in the street and he folds immediately, he is the commissioner of police of the most dangerous city in the planet and he just sits in his ass for fear that random guy from the street is going to hurt his family, what!, and then how the hell is Gordon not a target to be killed, instead we get the stupidiest terrorist attack in history(paperballons, really!) on the GCPD, and then it all part of this complicated plan of inverse psychology to force Gordon to turn on the Owl signal , which he could had easily turn off in the same moment, or just check that stupid thing has a different signal on it before turn it on, and then the end with "I have mask, I understand 2", WTF DO YOU UNDERSTAND YOU STUPID ZOMBIE GIRL!

ISSUE 9 SUCKS!

and The Knightfall arc wasnt an improvement, its the arc with more plotholes on it, Batwoman appears on it and her presence is completely unjustified, it is obvious that it was an editorial mandate and Gail had no idea what to do with her all, and her beating Batgirl up is just very badly done, that entire scene is just full of plotholes and problems of characterization

finally, Mckeena, the other supporting cast no one cares about, isnt just f***ing convenient that she just happens to have exactly ,EXACTLY, the same experience as how batgirl froze up in front of a gun in issue one, this is Lazy as hell

rants over, sorry i went on automatic there and kind of channel some of the Spoony One into me

I totally agree that Simone occasionally makes comments for Babs which are not amusing in the slightest but apparently supposed to be. I think Steph-girl would kick Babs-girl's butt. Not necessarily in a fight but just because of her mopey attitude. Get over it!

I agree

@Manwhohaseverything said:

I actually liked the "victim" "immature" mentality. What's a common complaint we hear about guys like Superman or Captain America? "They're too perfect!" Simone made it so that Barbara wasn't. Guess what you can do when a character is like that? Yes..you can develop them! (Hooray!) Simone, IMHO, was clearly headed that way. (LIke when Canary tried to literally slap her out of it.) Now, since comics only come out once a month, a year seems like a long time for a character to be stuck in that mode...but it isn't, it's still only 12 issues. Besides, there is no time limit on character growth, it's not like "Been a year, time for Batgirl to grow-up." Character development should be event-driven..something happens that causes the character to develop. Simone is actually very much following the blueprint for story telling. Seems most folks want to pick up an issue..and presto-changeo, a different Batgirl. I like the way Gail's doing it better.

Aa for her secondary characters, I think she does pretty well with them actually. But I don't read any solo book for the supporting cast. (And I read very few team books) I could say "Snyder is better at this than Gail", but that's hardly fair. Batman has a whole list of secondary characters and villains that were already interesting long before Snyder came along. Batgirl has none of that, and thus, no Batgirl villain will ever seem as interesting to us as Joker...or even Two-Face or Riddler for that matter.

It's a fair point that Barbara really has not had that much time in the suit to get over her issues, and I agree that development can come from this. On the flip side, Babs had three years to get over it, and it feels like she has still just started on the path to recovery. Also, I just don't find many of Babs actions or thoughts to be mature even for her scarred state. I don't feel like she is a mature enough person to be fighting crime is what I suppose I am getting at.

I don't want an instant change, but I would like her to stop wallowing. That does not need to be a long process. If she wants to struggle with PTSD, so be it, but decide you will not be defined by it.

Also, I don't think it is true that new villains cannot be interesting. Using Robin as an example, I quite like both The General and Anarky who got most of their development in Tim's series. Saiko was a good villain for Nightwing. Deathstroke is a great villain from the Titans. Dodge was an interesting villain created just for Robin as was the mysterious assassin assassin who never had a name to my knowledge. Knightfall was interesting to me, but Mirror and 338 girl? Uh, no.

I think the problem is that Gail WANTS to have the PTSD to define her character, kinda like the "constant struggle"

just like Oracle had the wheelchair, Batgirl has PTSD, but is completely missing the point of it, and the way this hurts the character is that she will never get over the PTSD, therefore never get over from her own trauma because Being Batgirl is a way to fight back against the PTSD

the moment Batgirl recovers from PTSD, she will stop being batgirl

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like all three Batgirls but I agree with this. I miss Cassandra.

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like all three Batgirls but I agree with this. I miss Cassandra.

Well, I think a Dick/Jason/Tim threeway would probably be improved by her presence.

@arnoldoaad

Regarding criticism, you are basically saying I should keep doing what I am doing but not feel guilty about it, right? Well, I guess that is advice I can follow.

Look up a picture of Alysia. Her eyes look slanty to me.

There are a lot of trans Asians. Just google the term ladyboy and make sure your filter is set to safe mode, but I don't know that she is. That is just the rumor, and I was trying to find justification for it. I figure the fact Alysia is Asian increase her chances (based on the BatWatch center for guesstimated statistics. The only other reason I can think it might be Alysia is because, as you mentioned, Babs has such a small supporting cast. Who else could it be? Her parents? Jim? Nightwing?

The link should be in a PM. I forgot to attach it.

I didn't know about the trans character in Mr. Terrific. Interesting. It's such a small population. I did do research on that, and I'm guessing one in five thousand as a nice rounded figure (taking from lots of specific stats). Doing the math based on one if five thousand. If we take the number of DC titles, multiply it times five in consideration of the four supporting characters that might appear every issue, and we then assume that there are five new supporting characters in every issue (which is a very high estimate), then the chances of one trans character showing up in any given DC book as a minor supporting character is one in 1,000, or looking at a different way, it would take about twenty months of comics before a trans character would be likely to show up in any of the 52 DC books based off general population, and that is still assuming we have five new worthwhile character every issue.

It's kind of silly but whatever.

I didn't mind, "You were always meant to be Batgirl." I just took it as A. Bruce saying something to give her confidence and B. Bruce saying that she always had the ability, talent and drive to be a crime fighter.

I read issues 1-9 quickly to get caught up, so I don't remember exactly what I liked and disliked about the issues. I just remember that I didn't find seven through nine as painful as one through six. I wouldn't accuse them of greatness, but they were okay. Your criticism of issue nine was hilarious though, and you bring up fair points.

I enjoyed Knightfall, but we already discussed that. We first met over that argument as I recall. (grins)

I hope you are wrong about PTSD and Batgirl, but I fear you might be right. If Babs does not start making some serious improvements after James Jr., it will start to become a detractor from the story.

@Samimista said:

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like all three Batgirls but I agree with this. I miss Cassandra.

@InsaneArtisticNerd said:

@Samimista said:

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like all three Batgirls but I agree with this. I miss Cassandra.

I second this :(

Cass was cool. They kind of forgot about her even before the DCNU began though. I wonder what the thought process was on that one. @Joygirl said:

Well, I think a Dick/Jason/Tim threeway would probably be improved by her presence.

(confused for a few seconds, then gets it, then laughs hilariously to himself) That is so wrong.

@BatWatch: Great article as always, very enjoyable but about the reboot reboot comment, are you sure that's a good idea? DC would basically be backtracking on themselves which many would see as a fatal flaw. For better or worse, the post crisis reality is gone with glimpses of its history sticking out in the new reality. Going back to that would cause a few problems, namely how to keep the notable characters in prime, story telling shape without letting time take their course on them?

@BatWatch said:

@Samimista said:

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like all three Batgirls but I agree with this. I miss Cassandra.

@InsaneArtisticNerd said:

@Samimista said:

@danhimself said:

@JediXMan said:

Bring back Cassandra Cain.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like all three Batgirls but I agree with this. I miss Cassandra.

I second this :(

Cass was cool. They kind of forgot about her even before the DCNU began though. I wonder what the thought process was on that one.

Didio doesn't like her and won't allow anyone to use her

@BatWatch said:

@arnoldoaad

Regarding criticism, you are basically saying I should keep doing what I am doing but not feel guilty about it, right? Well, I guess that is advice I can follow.

thats correct =D

Look up a picture of Alysia. Her eyes look slanty to me.

There are a lot of trans Asians. Just google the term ladyboy and make sure your filter is set to safe mode, but I don't know that she is. That is just the rumor, and I was trying to find justification for it. I figure the fact Alysia is Asian increase her chances (based on the BatWatch center for guesstimated statistics. The only other reason I can think it might be Alysia is because, as you mentioned, Babs has such a small supporting cast. Who else could it be? Her parents? Jim? Nightwing?

Alysia is such a forgettable thing that if she is actually Asian, and i still pretty sure she is not, no one cares

no one cares about Alysia, not even people who like the book cares about her

still I feel we will get yet ANOTHER victimizing story for whoever the trans is.

The link should be in a PM. I forgot to attach it.

I didn't know about the trans character in Mr. Terrific. Interesting. It's such a small population. I did do research on that, and I'm guessing one in five thousand as a nice rounded figure (taking from lots of specific stats). Doing the math based on one if five thousand. If we take the number of DC titles, multiply it times five in consideration of the four supporting characters that might appear every issue, and we then assume that there are five new supporting characters in every issue (which is a very high estimate), then the chances of one trans character showing up in any given DC book as a minor supporting character is one in 1,000, or looking at a different way, it would take about twenty months of comics before a trans character would be likely to show up in any of the 52 DC books based off general population, and that is still assuming we have five new worthwhile character every issue.

yeah, it was a transexual alien and only appeared in one issue and it was pretty interesting of a character, It was actually the "best" issue of Mr Terrific, which is not much cause Mr Terrific is a terrible comic but please check my review of the issue here, with pictures of the aline, is one of my early blog posts

It's kind of silly but whatever.

I didn't mind, "You were always meant to be Batgirl." I just took it as A. Bruce saying something to give her confidence and B. Bruce saying that she always had the ability, talent and drive to be a crime fighter.

It is not only something would never say but you can easily interpret it as Gail saying that she was never meant to be Oracle or that all the other Batgirls werent meant to be batgirl, it just a jab to the fans.

I read issues 1-9 quickly to get caught up, so I don't remember exactly what I liked and disliked about the issues. I just remember that I didn't find seven through nine as painful as one through six. I wouldn't accuse them of greatness, but they were okay. Your criticism of issue nine was hilarious though, and you bring up fair points.

Maybe i remember this wrong but i think i remember you saying that you read batgirl before you read Black Mirror, and when i initially read issue 8 the whole complete utter destruction of the James Jr character is what stuck to me the most, and after that was the complete incomprehention of what was the point of The Killing Joke

issue 7, is meh, is just unmemorable on every way, but issue 8, with the explanation of how the family which is complete crap, and then the multiple retcons on TKJ and Black Mirror, is so unnecessary and hacky of her.

one you need to know about Gail Simone is that she HATES The Killing Joke, she said that in interviews, she quit reading comics after TKJ, it is one of the reasons she created the WiR page, and she is just completely using this to rewrite that because she just doesnt understand TKJ, I just read the preview of issue 16, on it Barb confesses to her psychologist that she has (wet)dreams in which she kills the Joker repeatedly, dear god!, this is disgusting writing, is this suppose to make her relatable or likeable, NO!, she is a f*cking psychopath now

this is fanboyism, is purely fanfiction writing, thats pretty much issue 8 in a nutshell to, just the fanfiction interpretation of TKJ of a fangirl who hates TKJ and doesnt understand it, and she honestly thinks that she can do a better job than Snyder at writing the Gordons, she doesnt, she is not Snyder.

everything else is just meh, the Grotesque is not an interesting villain at all and Danny is just a throwaway character and his death is just as exploitable as you can possibly get.

damn it, i was in automatic again, see what happens when i talk about batgirl, and thanks for saying i had fair points

I enjoyed Knightfall, but we already discussed that. We first met over that argument as I recall. (grins)

I hope you are wrong about PTSD and Batgirl, but I fear you might be right. If Babs does not start making some serious improvements after James Jr., it will start to become a detractor from the story.

oh yeah, i remember now,

regarding the PTSD, It is already detractor from the story.

It is the entire bases of the story, without PTSD there is no story, there is no victim villains, there is no more angle to the entire book, She choose psychiatry as her career, Batgirl's whole world is defined by her tragedy,why some people think this is in any way character development is beyond me, is exploitative and disgusting

@Lvenger said:

@BatWatch: Great article as always, very enjoyable but about the reboot reboot comment, are you sure that's a good idea? DC would basically be backtracking on themselves which many would see as a fatal flaw. For better or worse, the post crisis reality is gone with glimpses of its history sticking out in the new reality. Going back to that would cause a few problems, namely how to keep the notable characters in prime, story telling shape without letting time take their course on them?

Fair points. I am not sure if it would be better for DC to backtrack or not. The thing that kills me is that the reboot accomplished nothing worthwhile other than a nice media blitz. I mean, all the stuff that really worked from the reboot are things that did not benefit from the reboot. Batman and Green Lantern are still the strongest sellers, and they gained nothing from the reboot. On the other hand, there is a lot that has become worse with the reboot. I don't know.

I don't know many that would be hurt from a reboot, reboot. The only problem I see is the loss in credibility at having to admit that the DCNU failed.

Let's just brainstorm. In terms of story, what would be worse from going back to the DCU.

@danhimself:

Did he say that?

@arnoldoaad:

God, you are right! She is going to be another victim. Whoever the trans is, she will be beaten or at least ostracized for his or her weird sexual issues, and we will get to see another person who is defined by their obstacles, and we will probably be preached about how we should celebrate different lifestyles. Meh.

Interesting about Mr. Terrific.

I don't see Bruce's comments as being a slam on Oracle, but it is a little out of character.

I've been reading a bunch of recent Bat volumes stuff to increase my ability to do good work on BatWatch, but I still have not read the Black Mirror. I have a little stack in Books a Million, and I think the Black Mirror is in the pile, but I've been reading Morrison's stuff.

Why do you say wet dreams? That is psychotic. Just dreams is not. I think dreaming of killing someone who crippled you is perfectly reasonable. Heck, I would do it in real life.

How did 8 rearrange TKJ? I don't remember.

For me, the victim angle has only been a slight detractor. I don't mind her being a recovering victim. It's the recurring relapses which bug me and the victim aspect of all the other characters that bugs me. Like I said, I will be okay if she starts to woman up after the Joker and James Jr. stories.

@BatWatch said:

@Lvenger said:

@BatWatch: Great article as always, very enjoyable but about the reboot reboot comment, are you sure that's a good idea? DC would basically be backtracking on themselves which many would see as a fatal flaw. For better or worse, the post crisis reality is gone with glimpses of its history sticking out in the new reality. Going back to that would cause a few problems, namely how to keep the notable characters in prime, story telling shape without letting time take their course on them?

Fair points. I am not sure if it would be better for DC to backtrack or not. The thing that kills me is that the reboot accomplished nothing worthwhile other than a nice media blitz. I mean, all the stuff that really worked from the reboot are things that did not benefit from the reboot. Batman and Green Lantern are still the strongest sellers, and they gained nothing from the reboot. On the other hand, there is a lot that has become worse with the reboot. I don't know.

I don't know many that would be hurt from a reboot, reboot. The only problem I see is the loss in credibility at having to admit that the DCNU failed.

Let's just brainstorm. In terms of story, what would be worse from going back to the DCU.

@danhimself:

Did he say that?

@arnoldoaad:

God, you are right! She is going to be another victim. Whoever the trans is, she will be beaten or at least ostracized for his or her weird sexual issues, and we will get to see another person who is defined by their obstacles, and we will probably be preached about how we should celebrate different lifestyles. Meh.

see, now you are starting to realize what this series is about

Interesting about Mr. Terrific.

yeah its one of the few good things in the series, though the overall arc was just pretty bad

I don't see Bruce's comments as being a slam on Oracle, but it is a little out of character.

I didnt say they were meant as an slam just that you can interpret them as such, thats my point

really poor choice of words

I hate to pull this out, I generally dont because im not a writer, but i can writer better than that

just have Batman say "hey, its good to see you back" yeah is cliche and corny but it is still better than what Gail wrote there

I've been reading a bunch of recent Bat volumes stuff to increase my ability to do good work on BatWatch, but I still have not read the Black Mirror. I have a little stack in Books a Million, and I think the Black Mirror is in the pile, but I've been reading Morrison's stuff.

ok first of all, What are you waiting for, its just the best thing that Snyder in Batman, if you liked CoO, Dark Mirror is 10 times better and the character of James Jr is glorious

the characterization is just fantastic, the whole idea of James Jr is him being the anti-Dick Grayson, and the way he does it is fenomenal

Just mark my words, after you read it, you will HATE Jrs portrayal in the Batgirl comic, specially issue 8 and issue 0

Gail just COMPLETELY misses the mark with this character, this is really why i believe she was fired for. she just doesnt get him

Why do you say wet dreams? That is psychotic. Just dreams is not. I think dreaming of killing someone who crippled you is perfectly reasonable. Heck, I would do it in real life.

It sounded funnier XD, but I read that i only see how much Gail hates the story, not Barb hating the Joker, and also I just see that, and see her now and I see absolutely no growth in the character, she still wants to kill the joker just like that

Do you remember what is the first thing that Barb says in TKJ after she gets attacked, she talks to batman and tells him that she is scared for her father's safety, cause the Joker is diffent now, she never thinks of herself first, now in batgirl (i think it was issue 4) she cries to batman on how much of a failure she is.

what was the first thing Gordon says when Batman rescues him? e doesnt say Im going to fuckign kill him, no, he tells batman, we need him to face justice, because no matter how much pain was put through, he is still the same person, his convictions are intact.

thats the moral of TKJ

Joker had that One bad day that changed him forever, and made him the Joker, he was broken into being the Joker.

thats what his intention in this book, proof his theory, that one bad day can destroy a person from the inside out, but Gordon Doesnt Break, Barbara Doesnt break, The Joker loses

and then he tells the joke and both him and batman laugh, and the Joker is wins, because Batman is just like the Joker, he had that one bad day and he became batman.

thats what i got from reading the book and when i see Batgirl having fantasies of killing the joker, I see that she was broken beyond repair. and it just disgust me, it really makes me feel nauseous.

How did 8 rearrange TKJ? I don't remember.

you really should read my blogpost on batgirl.

what changed was that Collen Reese never existed.

in TKJ Barb was going out with a friend, Collen, she never appears in-panel, and she is only mentioned twice in this single comic, when she hears the door she thinks that is Collen and thats why she opens the door to the Joker, when Joker leaves Collen discovers Barb and calls the hospital, in other words she saves her life

NOW, its Danny the thug who helps Barb, diffing the Joker just for the LULZ, and the Joker never discovers this, so that he can get a redemption y death that absolutely no one cares

point is, there was no hole, so why the hell did this happen, I can only help to think that Gail retconned TKJ without even checking it first.but some people will say, nitpick,maybe they are right, it is completely and absolutely unnecessary just to have this stupid character die and say "BTW i saved your life", is stupid, is manipulative, is bad writing, thats what it is.

and the second retcon and this is the big one

Barb was Alone

I can see why you didnt notice so take a moment, take a deep breath and think for yourself what exactly is being removed from the story if Barb was completely alone in her house during TKJ.

...

ok, well if she was alone that means that Gordon wsnt kidnapped and...

NOTHING F*CKING HAPPENS!

she was just alone in her house she hears the door banging and she didnt had anywhere to go that night so she just opens the door to anybody in the middle of the night cause she is an idiot and Joker shots her, end of story.

This is why Batgirl is one of the worst comics i ever read, its pure fanfiction of the worst kind of level possible, and is disgustingly disrespectful to TKJ

there is even a part in issue 14 in which she just thinks for herself how much of a failure she was in life for opening the door, that can only happen if you completely rewrite TKJ like she is doing here, but what is the point of actually using TKJ as a means to show her improvement over time, if she is not even using the actual Killing Joke just a revised halfassed version of it

For me, the victim angle has only been a slight detractor. I don't mind her being a recovering victim. It's the recurring relapses which bug me and the victim aspect of all the other characters that bugs me. Like I said, I will be okay if she starts to woman up after the Joker and James Jr. stories.

thats the problem with PTSD, she will always relapse, its the nature of the entire trauma, she will always fall back and will never be 100%

is the same logic to why Oracle never recovered her legs, she will never recover her mind

@arnoldoaad:

Well, maybe the trans will be handled well. I'm still holding on to the hope that Simone wants to move the character forward and she is just taking some time to do that.

I heard Mr. Terrific was pretty un-terrific. I heard people say that it was their favorite character but they could not stand the book.

I'm not sure on the Bruce to Barbara conversation. I would need to reread it with fresh eyes. I didn't have problem with it at the time.

Regarding why I haven't done Black Mirror first, it was because I was constantly seeing references to past Morrison work which I had either not read or read quickly without seeing his grand scheme. Also, I looked for it yesterday, and it was not there. I'm sure BAM will get it at some point. It was going to be the next volume I started reading based on this conversation if it was there, but it was not.

It's hard for me to imagine Gail being fired for her treatment of a B-list villain like James Jr. (not that I am saying he might not be awesome, just that he is not well established or a fan favorite with many people) when DC lets so many other much more popular characters get turned upside down.

Interesting take on TKJ. Obviously, I got that Gordon did not break, but I had not considered that Barbara did not break, and that Batman did. Interesting. I haven't read that since being an adult, I don't think. Perhaps I should add it to the pile. I can see how Simone not getting that bugs you.

Wow! I had not remembered that Barbara's friend saved her, and though it made for an okay story (in my book), I agree that having the redemption of the thug was a throwaway concept. Use and forget. Certainly not high quality writing, and overlooking Gordon's kidnapping...that is just sloppy. You could say Gordon was still kidnapped from somewhere else...but, yeah, it would still be from the Lobdell school of unhelpful changes just cause I can.

People are not always stuck with PTSD. They do move on. Especially with a superhero universe where people heal from physical wounds much too quickly, it is not far fetched to think Barbara will recover. The question is whether Simone wants her to recover.

@BatWatch said:

@arnoldoaad:

Well, maybe the trans will be handled well. I'm still holding on to the hope that Simone wants to move the character forward and she is just taking some time to do that.

the funny part is that you are basically me, at issue 5, "maybe it will be better", we are at issue 16 + an annual, its never going to get better, it will keep having this crappy villains and this victimization of everyone in the book, is what the book is.

I heard Mr. Terrific was pretty un-terrific. I heard people say that it was their favorite character but they could not stand the book.

take this from me who reviewed every single issue

Its one of the worst comics of the new 52, is abysmally bad

I'm not sure on the Bruce to Barbara conversation. I would need to reread it with fresh eyes. I didn't have problem with it at the time.

Regarding why I haven't done Black Mirror first, it was because I was constantly seeing references to past Morrison work which I had either not read or read quickly without seeing his grand scheme. Also, I looked for it yesterday, and it was not there. I'm sure BAM will get it at some point. It was going to be the next volume I started reading based on this conversation if it was there, but it was not.

the only references to Morrisons work on Black Mirror is that Dick is Batman, thats pretty much it. you can read it without reading Morrison's work.but is good if you read it after Return of BW, btw where are you exactly on the Morrison chps?

It's hard for me to imagine Gail being fired for her treatment of a B-list villain like James Jr. (not that I am saying he might not be awesome, just that he is not well established or a fan favorite with many people) when DC lets so many other much more popular characters get turned upside down.

another theory goes that DC wanted to kill a character on Batgirl, not necessarily James Jr, and god i hope is the stupid mother, but Gail said no to that, and is the main part of the discussion, but if there is something that we know for sure is that the Editor wanted to do something, and Gail said no, and thats what got her fired.

Interesting take on TKJ. Obviously, I got that Gordon did not break, but I had not considered that Barbara did not break, and that Batman did. Interesting. I haven't read that since being an adult, I don't think. Perhaps I should add it to the pile. I can see how Simone not getting that bugs you.

Wow! I had not remembered that Barbara's friend saved her, and though it made for an okay story (in my book), I agree that having the redemption of the thug was a throwaway concept. Use and forget. Certainly not high quality writing, and overlooking Gordon's kidnapping...that is just sloppy. You could say Gordon was still kidnapped from somewhere else...but, yeah, it would still be from the Lobdell school of unhelpful changes just cause I can.

reading Batgirl issue 8 really left a bad taste in my mouth and i hadnt even notice half of the retcons that she did there but i reread TKJ after reading that and it was just obvious to me then that Gail was retracing it by memory, that she didnt even bother to reread it or even research it before writing that piece of crap.

for me its just like those people who complain about the sole existence of Before Watchmen, Gail is just abusing and exploiting Alan Moore's work and she doesnt like it, she doesnt even understand it, it really pisses me off.

People are not always stuck with PTSD. They do move on. Especially with a superhero universe where people heal from physical wounds much too quickly, it is not far fetched to think Barbara will recover. The question is whether Simone wants her to recover.

I heard that she said on her tumblr that she not going to get rid of it easily that she was going to get relapses because thats normal, but thats the main problem with this concept.

yes there are people in the real life who had gotten better from this condition but not by dressing as a bat and fighting crime.

is like if you a soldier who got traumatized by the war and the means to get over that was requesting to be deployed again, it makes no sense to me.