The DC Reboot: Comic Book Readers Being Stupid

Apparently, I’m one of the very few people who are actually enthusiastic about the DC Reboot. And I can totally see why comic book companies never change anything. Because if you have to deal with comic book readers who get upset about everything – and I do mean, everything – that requires some change, why should you bother? And with all the blahblah surrounding the reboot, here’s what I think about some of the most heard quotes.

“This will suck!”

Fig #1: This is better already than what we had in recent months.

Simple statement, simple answer: How do you know? All we have so far are about three lines of blurb, one image and a title for each book. There is absolutely no way you can know how good or how bad each book will be. Mind you, I am fully entertaining the possibility that some of the books will suck. Even the Teen Titans book, which I’m looking forward to a lot because it is so radically different, might as well be a horribly bad read. I don’t think it will be as bad as Felicia D. Henderson’s run on the book, because being that bad takes some effort, but still, it could be bad. And Felicia D. Henderson is also the exact reason why I’m looking forward to the reboot. Felicia D. Henderson broke the Titans beyond salvation. J.T. Krul made valiant effort since he’s otherwise a good writer, but even he failed. The rest of the DC Universe is in similar shape. While the 2000s began quite well, Geoff Johns re-invented the Teen Titans for example. Or Judd Winick on the Outsiders. All those ideas were good. They worked. But as the 2000s went on, DC had this brilliant trend to do everything like they did in the Silver Age. Why? You can’t go forward by going back. And to be honest, DC has waited too long with the reboot. So here’s a chance at a fresh set of characters written by people who get to re-invent these characters.

Blake Northcott (aka. ComicBookGrrrl): “The DC Comics reboot is a desperation move, and people can already sense it. You don’t win new readers with one big, overblown marketing gimmick – you win them with compelling storylines that are worth sharing and discussing.”

While I’m fully willing to accept that DC is desperate – in fact, I’m very comfortable with the thought that they’re desperate – I don’t see how a desperate move is a bad thing. Because it means that DC has realized that they have a problem. Compared to how they’ve been fuddling about in the past couple of years, I would say that this is actually a very good thing. It shows that DC has seen that they’ve written them into places where they just can’t go on.

As for compelling stories: Was ripping Arsenal’s arm off compelling? Was killing his daughter a story worth telling? Did we have anything to discuss after they made him a junkie again? And Arsenal is just one of the characters that had crap happening to him that can’t easily be reversed and did accomplish absolutely nothing. Other examples would be the killing of just about every Titan but maybe a handful. Sure, we did discuss all these instances, but not once did I hear something along the lines of “Man, this story was awesome!” or “Rest in Peace, Kid Devil, you had a good death”.

So if this desperation move enables writers to tell compelling storylines that are worth sharing and discussing again, then they’re on the right path. Besides, it takes a lot of courage on a company’s end to admit that they’ve been totally wrong and that they need to do something drastic.

PS: Blake Northcott is actually awesome. You should totally read her blog.

“The re-design of my favourite character sucks!”

Fig. #2: This is awesome.

Yeah, that one I have to actually agree with to an extent, since we’re all individuals. And individuals have individual tastes. Personally, I like most of the redesigns I’ve seen. Harley Quinn’s is spectacular, Superboy’s is very interesting. However, I’m not too fond of Kid Flash’s as he looks like he’s wearing a crown. And for some odd reason, I miss Superman’s briefs. So yeah, that’s a perfectly valid complaint.
 
Yes, I did just admit that I'm in favour of Superman wearing his underwear outside his pants. I never thought I'd say this.

35 Comments
35 Comments
Posted by joshmightbe

At this point no one should be surprised that fan boys get mad about every thing its become a cliche' and its the reason the rest of the world doesn't take comic fans seriously 

Posted by DEGRAAF
@Battlepig
i agree they made mistakes but i actually liked the story of Arsenal and his daughter. I like seeing progression even if it throws a hero we know in to a downward spiral. I liked where they were going with him and that they put him back with cheshire and on Slades team only to try and kill slade. I think they should have had him keep his arm but have him get over being such a junkie but still be in to drugs for the recreation of it. I also like them putting him on a team with Jason Todd. That is one comic i will definitelly be picking up. I did like the arm though and would have liked to see him relearn how to shoot his bow with such accuracy or have him switch over to a cross bow (like handicap hunters can use) 
 
As for redesigns. I like Harley's redesign too but i think they should have kept her blonde hair. The red and black hair just makes me think of Two-Face.
Posted by MrUnknown
@Battlepig: I'm looking forward to some if that means anything. ;/
Posted by SC
@joshmightbe said:
At this point no one should be surprised that fan boys get mad about every thing its become a cliche' and its the reason the rest of the world doesn't take comic fans seriously 
 
As opposed to the video game fans. World loves those guys.  lol
 
 
 To thread. 
 
If anything, probably most of the time these things are far too generalized.  At least as I perceive it. Comments, reactions. So on. 
 
I have seen negative feedback to this move, and positive, but hardly any of it has been so simple and one sided. The easy majority of feedback I have seen is people weighing up the good and bad to some relative extent. I am sure there have been a bunch of people who expressed only negative sentiment, in brief, but is that a sign thats the only sentiment they hold? Comic fans are like everyone. In that they are lazy. To my its way to easy to divide the fans who are negative about this and optimistic. Also the idea that people can't express criticism now as if they are going to have to be held law to their stance forever? Plus comic companies never really actually have to deal with its fans. Their fans are free publicity and create a whole online industry that aids comics. Your CV, and CBR's and etc Their fans buy their stuff usually anyway, no matter. People get as upset about everything as they don't. Some just have preferences and some people get upset about people having preferences. Some people even get upset about people getting upset. lol  
 
So I semi agree with your sentiment (if I have a good grip on its intent) ((except the Harley outfit, what was a subversion that helped characterize the character has been lost by a redesign that seems so cliche. Cool, but as far as aiding the character? Probably should just have introduced her as Harley's sister or something)) (((but that last parts really more about how one sees and interprets her character)))
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Posted by turoksonofstone
@Battlepig:  
Lame.
Edited by Adnan

I'm, for the most part, optimistic about the reboot (I've been waiting so long for a Resurrection Man story, and now I'm getting that plus Frankenstein, Swamp-Thing, Voodoo, Grifter...it's great), I don't really mind people complaining about it, because all we can do at the moment is speculate and complain about it.
 
I'm not sure how I didn't realise this earlier, but Harley's new redesign is just a fusion of her current look and her Arkham Asylum look, isn't it? I do think Superman looks fine though, it's just what G-Man said - we're not used to seeing him without his pants. And some people are now saying DC was too safe with his design and should've changed it up even more...if people are complaining about how he looks now, I can't imagine what it would be like if they were more extreme with his redesign.

Posted by joshmightbe
@SC: I agree that video game fan boys are just as bad just like with religion fanaticism ruins every thing for every body 
Edited by sesquipedalophobe
@Battlepig: I grew up with Superman. But since things could go either way, they shouldn't have kept things marginally the same. If they were going to avoid the family of Superman, they should have altered the suit altogether. There were plenty of intelligent ways to transition him toward "Superman Beyond," but they blew it. A new universe, and all they could come up with was a costume with seams. In fact, it looks like the batsuit during Batman Inc, minus the mask and underwear. Making him younger is fine.
Posted by SC

Also this idea that negativity and criticism is a bad thing? Not to this thread directly, but i have seen other people bring this up in other threads as reactions to other fans opinions, thoughts and views over the reboot. It sort of comes off to me as a lazy type of censorship. These are comics, a person expressing their thoughts even if negative can be one of the healthiest things a person can do. Some people even enjoy it. I find entertainment in expression criticism for comic runs I hate. What's wrong with being upset? Are we supposed to not care? Why buy comics and come online to talk about them, if we don't care? I suppose technically I don't really get upset... I tend to be way too horrible objective with my criticism and preferences lol still, I find this comic readers being as stupid as most people. In fact all people are sort of stupid when we consider what the most popular TV shows and music songs are... then again, what's wrong with being stupid about those things? *shrugs* 

Moderator
Posted by SC
@joshmightbe said:
@SC: I agree that video game fan boys are just as bad just like with religion fanaticism ruins every thing for every body 
 
Well, PS3 is the Devil and Satan rolled into one... so if you like it your soul will burn! =D
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Posted by coolbeans

The DC reboot could be interesting.  I'm just a little sad that all the character development over the past few years of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake seems to be all for nothing.  I really hope Tim gets his own series after the reboot because I have been loving the Red Robin series.

Posted by Green Skin

People need to quit bitching and moaning about the reboot. It got old a long time ago.

Posted by doordoor123
@Battlepig: I promise you that its mostly only this site. People on this site are kind of ill informed and it doesnt help when the people who run this site arent very enthusiastic about it. 
Im really excited for this. Actually more excited than I have ever been in the comics world. I wish this happened when I first got into comics xD
Posted by Battlepig
@SC said:
Also this idea that negativity and criticism is a bad thing? Not to this thread directly, but i have seen other people bring this up in other threads as reactions to other fans opinions, thoughts and views over the reboot. It sort of comes off to me as a lazy type of censorship. These are comics, a person expressing their thoughts even if negative can be one of the healthiest things a person can do. Some people even enjoy it. I find entertainment in expression criticism for comic runs I hate. What's wrong with being upset? Are we supposed to not care? Why buy comics and come online to talk about them, if we don't care? I suppose technically I don't really get upset... I tend to be way too horrible objective with my criticism and preferences lol still, I find this comic readers being as stupid as most people. In fact all people are sort of stupid when we consider what the most popular TV shows and music songs are... then again, what's wrong with being stupid about those things? *shrugs* 
There's not much wrong with expressing negative criticism. I personally love ranting and raving about bad movies and I am an avid collector of bad comics. The worse, the better. But i usually do it after I've read them. You know, once I actually have something to go on. Like ranting about Final Crisis, I can do that for hours, but I wouldn't have done it before I've actually read it. If I remember correctly, I was actually quite excited to read it. Only to be bitterly disappointed.
 
Also, while the comic book companies are not really bothering with the fans, the creators themselves have this tendency to interact with people these days. And only hearing how much it will suck, it will have an impact on writers and artists. I'm fully aware that I'm probably not pleasing Rick Remender when I'm telling him that he's ruined the Thunderbolts forever. Imagine that times a thousand. There's no way this isn't getting to you a bit. 
 
@turoksonofstone said:
@Battlepig:  Lame.
Yes, very.
Posted by SC
@Battlepig said:
 but I wouldn't have done it before I've actually read it. If I remember correctly, I was actually quite excited to read it. Only to be bitterly disappointed.
 
Also, while the comic book companies are not really bothering with the fans, the creators themselves have this tendency to interact with people these days. And only hearing how much it will suck, it will have an impact on writers and artists. I'm fully aware that I'm probably not pleasing Rick Remender when I'm telling him that he's ruined the Thunderbolts forever. Imagine that times a thousand. There's no way this isn't getting to you a bit. 

 
Who has the patience to wait for that long though! =p 
 
This applies to both criticism/praise. These days people just love sharing opinions. Every promo, advert, idea, can sort of become a talking point. I mean, what we are doing now, is sort of discussing something that has yet to come, and I understand your not criticizing it, but I am not entirely sure that those who are, will stubbornly insist that their criticism over an aspect of the change now, will carry over if they actually find the actuality of the situation different. Their criticism will either be reinforced with fresh reason or they'll believe that XYZ actually listened to them and produced a super product. lol  
 
Oh, creators usually do that of their own willingness though is my point, so they sort of choose to bother, and be bothered, if you catch my drift. I know the creators that are best at it, usually know where they can go for praise and yes men as equally. Hopefully none of them actually fool themselves into realizing the ratio of online fans to those who buy the book. I am not sure what you meant with your statement sorry, so am unsure to what effect my reply? You mean getting to Remender or me? 
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Posted by Battlepig
@SC said:
Who has the patience to wait for that long though! =p  This applies to both criticism/praise. These days people just love sharing opinions. Every promo, advert, idea, can sort of become a talking point. I mean, what we are doing now, is sort of discussing something that has yet to come, and I understand your not criticizing it, but I am not entirely sure that those who are, will stubbornly insist that their criticism over an aspect of the change now, will carry over if they actually find the actuality of the situation different. Their criticism will either be reinforced with fresh reason or they'll believe that XYZ actually listened to them and produced a super product. lol   Oh, creators usually do that of their own willingness though is my point, so they sort of choose to bother, and be bothered, if you catch my drift. I know the creators that are best at it, usually know where they can go for praise and yes men as equally. Hopefully none of them actually fool themselves into realizing the ratio of online fans to those who buy the book. I am not sure what you meant with your statement sorry, so am unsure to what effect my reply? You mean getting to Remender or me? 
What I meant that criticizing - or rather bashing - a creator leaves its marks. And if all you hear is "You suck!" you'll eventually start questioning yourself, asking if those people are maybe onto something. And you'll automatically stop daring things. Many a really a good idea has been killed with that sort of thinking, I'd say.  And was I trying to get at Remender... I don't know. One way, I hope he does see it, but somehow I hope he doesn't.
 
@doordoor123 said:
@Battlepig: I promise you that its mostly only this site. People on this site are kind of ill informed and it doesnt help when the people who run this site arent very enthusiastic about it.  Im really excited for this. Actually more excited than I have ever been in the comics world. I wish this happened when I first got into comics xD

Precisely. The greatest thing about this is that we're going to get a whole new world to discover. All the exciting things that could bring. Awesome, no?
 
@coolbeans said:
The DC reboot could be interesting.  I'm just a little sad that all the character development over the past few years of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake seems to be all for nothing.  I really hope Tim gets his own series after the reboot because I have been loving the Red Robin series.

Yeah, quite a bit of good stuff is getting lost. However, they're getting the chance that they can rebuild it and maybe improve on it, even. The new Teen Titans apparently has Tim Drake being a hacker of sorts again. I like that. Him being a hero who's more brains than brawns is a pleasant perspective. And Dick as Batman did a lot for him, but I can see why they thought it wouldn't go anywhere once Bruce was back. He will forever be in the shadow of the big Bat. As Nightwing, he has his own thing to go with. He can be his own hero, while still being closely attached to the Bat-family. So it will do quite a bit for him.
Posted by SC
@Battlepig said:
What I meant that criticizing - or rather bashing - a creator leaves its marks. And if all you hear is "You suck!" you'll eventually start questioning yourself, asking if those people are maybe onto something. And you'll automatically stop daring things. Many a really a good idea has been killed with that sort of thinking, I'd say.  And was I trying to get at Remender... I don't know. One way, I hope he does see it, but somehow I hope he doesn't.
 
Do the majority of comic book fans do that though? I don't see it myself.  
 
I would really hope creators have thicker skins that as well. Plus have a basic understanding of how people operate. Have you ever been in a situation to be criticized? I think if creators got such generic criticism, they'd laugh. Actual criticism with substance on the other hand? Like if you stroll into the Greg Land section of Comicvine.... that must hurt much more no? By virtue of being some legitimate criticism. Plus other artists actually criticizing him as well lol 
 
I think if they generally stop daring, they shouldn't be in the business. Its like any job. If some random nobody criticizes me, with such a generic criticism, why bother noticing or caring? The alternative is that criticism, actual, legitimate criticism, is one of the best ways for improving upon ideas as tested for centuries now. The devils advocate. One of the most useful creative devices ever!  
 
I have seen... PAD, Dan Slott, Gail Simone... Mike Choi... or respond to criticism... all differently. Depending on the nature of the criticism, their reply has changed, much like I suspect how we as posters interact with each other. I am sure if you were reasonably objective and non personal and respectful with your criticism towards Remender I am sure he won't mind. If any of the writers who I have criticized come across my complaints I would hope they challenged me, since most of the time I am usually joking and exaggerating my criticism. To me, the writer and their work is separate. I know one writer I criticize a lot has often critiqued his own work and decisions as well? Plus from what I know of them personally, I like them. 
Moderator
Posted by aztek_the_lost

@SC said:

@Battlepig said:
What I meant that criticizing - or rather bashing - a creator leaves its marks. And if all you hear is "You suck!" you'll eventually start questioning yourself, asking if those people are maybe onto something. And you'll automatically stop daring things. Many a really a good idea has been killed with that sort of thinking, I'd say. And was I trying to get at Remender... I don't know. One way, I hope he does see it, but somehow I hope he doesn't.

Do the majority of comic book fans do that though? I don't see it myself.

I would really hope creators have thicker skins that as well. Plus have a basic understanding of how people operate. Have you ever been in a situation to be criticized? I think if creators got such generic criticism, they'd laugh. Actual criticism with substance on the other hand? Like if you stroll into the Greg Land section of Comicvine.... that must hurt much more no? By virtue of being some legitimate criticism. Plus other artists actually criticizing him as well lol

I think if they generally stop daring, they shouldn't be in the business. Its like any job. If some random nobody criticizes me, with such a generic criticism, why bother noticing or caring? The alternative is that criticism, actual, legitimate criticism, is one of the best ways for improving upon ideas as tested for centuries now. The devils advocate. One of the most useful creative devices ever!

I have seen... PAD, Dan Slott, Gail Simone... Mike Choi... or respond to criticism... all differently. Depending on the nature of the criticism, their reply has changed, much like I suspect how we as posters interact with each other. I am sure if you were reasonably objective and non personal and respectful with your criticism towards Remender I am sure he won't mind. If any of the writers who I have criticized come across my complaints I would hope they challenged me, since most of the time I am usually joking and exaggerating my criticism. To me, the writer and their work is separate. I know one writer I criticize a lot has often critiqued his own work and decisions as well? Plus from what I know of them personally, I like them.

I have to agree with SC here on creators' reactions to criticism, especially that of the Internet...apparently some creators like Garth Ennis don't even read the opinions of the people and if you ever hear James Robinson on the ComicVine podcast, he's made it quite clear he gives no merit to the anonymous "fan" typing out their hatred over the Internet...I also remember letter pages where the criticizing fan (who can't back up anything they say) painted as the loser who sent a letter into the book that everyone now has rights to mock...I don't think anyone cares about the naysayers...if anything, I'd think that comic creators have a bigger problem accepting criticism then taking it too seriously tbh...not saying they should take everyone seriously, but I don't think anyone's problem is that they do

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Posted by Battlepig
@SC said:
I would really hope creators have thicker skins that as well. Plus have a basic understanding of how people operate. Have you ever been in a situation to be criticized? I think if creators got such generic criticism, they'd laugh. Actual criticism with substance on the other hand? Like if you stroll into the Greg Land section of Comicvine.... that must hurt much more no? By virtue of being some legitimate criticism. Plus other artists actually criticizing him as well lol 
 
I think if they generally stop daring, they shouldn't be in the business. Its like any job. If some random nobody criticizes me, with such a generic criticism, why bother noticing or caring? The alternative is that criticism, actual, legitimate criticism, is one of the best ways for improving upon ideas as tested for centuries now. The devils advocate. One of the most useful creative devices ever!  
 
I have seen... PAD, Dan Slott, Gail Simone... Mike Choi... or respond to criticism... all differently. Depending on the nature of the criticism, their reply has changed, much like I suspect how we as posters interact with each other. I am sure if you were reasonably objective and non personal and respectful with your criticism towards Remender I am sure he won't mind. If any of the writers who I have criticized come across my complaints I would hope they challenged me, since most of the time I am usually joking and exaggerating my criticism. To me, the writer and their work is separate. I know one writer I criticize a lot has often critiqued his own work and decisions as well? Plus from what I know of them personally, I like them. 
 
@aztek the lost said:

I have to agree with SC here on creators' reactions to criticism, especially that of the Internet...apparently some creators like Garth Ennis don't even read the opinions of the people and if you ever hear James Robinson on the ComicVine podcast, he's made it quite clear he gives no merit to the anonymous "fan" typing out their hatred over the Internet...I also remember letter pages where the criticizing fan (who can't back up anything they say) painted as the loser who sent a letter into the book that everyone now has rights to mock...I don't think anyone cares about the naysayers...if anything, I'd think that comic creators have a bigger problem accepting criticism then taking it too seriously tbh...not saying they should take everyone seriously, but I don't think anyone's problem is that they do

I actually am in this situation every day. I'm a journalist. Not your random blogger calling himself a journalist, but I work for a newspaper and I have an office and - since January - I even have my own interns (my current one's a bit of a tool but the one before that was amazing). So I am out there every day and, very often, I get criticized. People write in and occasionally, they show up in my office to yell at me for no good reason. And I've seen it happen in seasoned journalists, they don't dare things anymore because they've been yelled at one too many times, regardless of how often they say that they don't bother with criticism. I've even caught myself restraining myself because I was scared what some random guy might think. I really know I shouldn't, but usually it's the thought of "Do I really want to bother with that guy again? Nah." It's one of the bigger things I'm trying to overcome these days.
Edited by Maki_P

I hate Harley's new look because she looks like a Basin City's Old Town prostitute. And I also miss Supes's briefs (his costume needs more red). I do however love Tim and Kara's new digs

Posted by mark5
@Maki_P said:
I hate Harley's new look because she looks like a Basin City's Old Town prostitute. And I also miss Supes's briefs (his costume needs more red). I do however love Tim and Kara's new digs
Gotta agree with Harley's costume. There is impractical like Black Canary (which i can deal with) and there is outright slutty like Harley's new look. 
Posted by Bluefox170

I agree, honestly I think it's a mixture of 1. Readers being afraid of change (where's the fun in that logic.)  Change in REALITY is what these characters would need to face eventually with their ever changing environment regardless of this being a revamp. You can't expect a character to be running around in the same garb for 70 years. It would make it unrealistic for the public in a book not to mock them for flying around with something that was thought of as cool in the 40's. and secondly It's readers trying to sound like they know what they're talking about with nothing else other than a couple cover shots and a few tweaks to a character and now all the sudden they can predict the fate of the book. It's like seeing a premier of a new TV show, you can't really wrap your mind around the presented cast and really don't think your going to watch it, but it just so happens it takes a spot between 2 of your favorite shows so you decide to watch it for the first time until you get to the next show. before you know it, the characters grow on you and you can't imagine anyone else in those specific roles and the show becomes part of your routine. Basically, give it a try, no one knows what they are talking about until they get to at least the 2nd or 3rd issue. Sometimes I feel like the majority of readers want to go back to the very beginning of DC comics and have their characters stand still for a whole 22 pages so that absolutely nothing happens. 

Posted by Outside_85

While i agree that we really need to wait and see before passing judgement, it is just very hard not to do so when the spoilers (art and text) makes it seem like DC is intentionally trying to scared off established readers in favor of attracting new blood.  
Like the only thing they had to say about Cassandra: She's a thief. Yeah, she was a thief back in the day when she started out, but it was generally forgotten and never mentioned since then. While we dont know yet, when thieving is the only thing you have to sell a character on, thats not really a positive step. Same with Bart; He's hyperactive. Again, it was true, but it was something he eventually stopped being around the time the Impulse persona was put to rest.  

Also i agree that Henderson was the worst writer I have ever encountered and i am relieved she is not writing anything by the looks of it, not even the Static book. I do however disagree that Krul failed in his run he will clock in at 13 issues, a far too short run for me as i liked what he was doing and Scott was a treat as well. While i have hopes that Lobdell will be as good a Krul, I am worried that he will get it wrong as he has no experience writing TT, tons of X-men stuff apparently, but Krul did have the BN tie-ins to get them all right. But in this revapm-verse would we even notice? As for Booth...well his art was the highpoint of Robinsons JLA for me, but it still wasnt something I'd want as a replacement.   
 
Is it a desperate move by DC? Yeah, it is if rumors about WB 'threatning' DC are to be believed.  
Is it the right move? I can understand if DC is pulling this to keep their jobs, revamp will get alot of attention and hopefully make WB look the other way again. But as a reader, I dont want massive changes to the stuff i like because someone's desperate to keep their jobs. Bit like an automechanic smashing your car because of the threat of being laid off since theres not enough work. 
Will it work? Time will tell if it lasts, I'm sure it will make September a decent month for DC since noone atm knows what to buy and what they will like but eventually the 'new' hype will die out and people will leave again, titles will get cancelled and we risk we will be right back where we started.  
It is a desperate move from a cornered bear, the revamp is the bear making a breakout attempt and either its going to have more holes than a swiss cheese or live to hibernate another day.

Posted by gravitypress

I doubt that this is a purely creative decision. WB shareholders are probably putting on the pressure to maximize profits. Fortunately what is done can be easily undone. I say give it a chance it might be a change for the better.

Posted by longbowhunter

There are aspects of the relaunch I do not like. I even down right hate. But I'm so focused on the good like Scott Snyder on Batman and Swamp Thing, that Secret Six and THUNDER Agents not coming back dont sting as bad as they should.
Edited by Battlepig
@Outside_85 said:

While i agree that we really need to wait and see before passing judgement, it is just very hard not to do so when the spoilers (art and text) makes it seem like DC is intentionally trying to scared off established readers in favor of attracting new blood.  Like the only thing they had to say about Cassandra: She's a thief. Yeah, she was a thief back in the day when she started out, but it was generally forgotten and never mentioned since then. While we dont know yet, when thieving is the only thing you have to sell a character on, thats not really a positive step. Same with Bart; He's hyperactive. Again, it was true, but it was something he eventually stopped being around the time the Impulse persona was put to rest.  Also i agree that Henderson was the worst writer I have ever encountered and i am relieved she is not writing anything by the looks of it, not even the Static book. I do however disagree that Krul failed in his run he will clock in at 13 issues, a far too short run for me as i liked what he was doing and Scott was a treat as well. While i have hopes that Lobdell will be as good a Krul, I am worried that he will get it wrong as he has no experience writing TT, tons of X-men stuff apparently, but Krul did have the BN tie-ins to get them all right. But in this revapm-verse would we even notice? As for Booth...well his art was the highpoint of Robinsons JLA for me, but it still wasnt something I'd want as a replacement.    Is it a desperate move by DC? Yeah, it is if rumors about WB 'threatning' DC are to be believed.  Is it the right move? I can understand if DC is pulling this to keep their jobs, revamp will get alot of attention and hopefully make WB look the other way again. But as a reader, I dont want massive changes to the stuff i like because someone's desperate to keep their jobs. Bit like an automechanic smashing your car because of the threat of being laid off since theres not enough work. Will it work? Time will tell if it lasts, I'm sure it will make September a decent month for DC since noone atm knows what to buy and what they will like but eventually the 'new' hype will die out and people will leave again, titles will get cancelled and we risk we will be right back where we started.  It is a desperate move from a cornered bear, the revamp is the bear making a breakout attempt and either its going to have more holes than a swiss cheese or live to hibernate another day.

The thing with the character development you mention that gets taken away... I kind of disagree. Because Wonder Girl was a thief. Kid Flash was hyperactive, Tim was a hacker. What were they in the end? Generic superheroes. There was literally nothing to distinguish them from their peers. If you interchanged dialogues between characters, it wouldn't have made a difference unless they were talking about each other. Their powersets were nearly identical and if they weren't, ways were found to make them as uniform as possible. And imagine what being a thief could bring to the table. Certainly the ability to think outside the box, to - at least in thought - outwit systems and patters. When did Wonder Girl last do that? Or as a hyperactive kid? You should be able to do seven things at once, with superspeed, you'd be all over the place. That in turn would result in more interesting stuff, at least on how other characters interact with Bart. However, the only difference to the other heroes is that he's talking about Raven. That's it. Character traits like these should not be "Put to rest" as you put it. They should be nurtured, built upon. A thief with superpowers trying to do good... that's actually something I'd read in a heartbeat, because it's so different from your standard hero blahblah.
 
As for Felicia D. Henderson, she was still supposed to write the Static series, she's even completed a story of it. This week's Static One-Shot is by her. So if you really want to do it to yourself, get your fix there. And Krul did them right, yes. But he had absolutely nothing to go on. They were all the same character, basically. So all he could do was have the same character talk to itself for a while. And then do random things. Even the new girl - the Indian chick whose name just escapes me - is the same character all over again. What doesn't help matters much is that apparently, every comic book story must end with the heroes punching someone in the face. Have you ever noticed that the stories that don't end in a big fight with splashpages and everything are almost always better than those that do?  And if the Reboot brings us all that, different characters with different "attributes" (to borrow a term from tabeltop roleplaying) and different opinions on things and different methods, then so be it. In fact, bring it on. Let me see different, let me see interesting.
 
@gravitypress said:
I doubt that this is a purely creative decision. WB shareholders are probably putting on the pressure to maximize profits. Fortunately what is done can be easily undone. I say give it a chance it might be a change for the better.

Yeah, that suspicion has crept up on me as well. Because you don't make all those plans only to then go "Nyahnyah, gotcha!" and tell soemthing entirely different. But even if WB went "What the hell do you think you're doing?" and all that, it's not a bad thing. Too many writers have gotten away with phoning it in for too long. People like Felicia D. Henderson were allowed to write stories. That should never have happened. Or at least some editor should have gone "Felicia, listen... the idea might not be bad, but the execution, the way you want to do it, it's absolutely awful." and then have her make it better. Because I'm willing to entertain that Felicia D. Henderson could write a story worth reading. She wouldn't have a career as a writer otherwise. But if there's nobody to keep the writers on their toes.... yeah, you get crap like The Wyld.
Posted by Outside_85
@Battlepig
I wouldnt say TT were as blank personality wise as you make them out to be. 
 
Urg..keep Hendersons writing away from me.
Posted by Battlepig

@Outside_85 
I'm not saying it was a blank personailty. I'm saying they all had the same personality that was just rather generic. "I'll do good because doing good things is good". That's it. That's all there was to it.  Even Ravager fell into that. At first, she was interesting because she was doing it so that she could maybe, one day, get her hands on her father. And she was a Titan to annoy Slade. I could live with that. In fact, that was better than everyone going "Rose is such a bitch" while she never did anything particularly bitchy. 
 
In general, they went as far as to restrain the characters when they wanted to play their abilities to their strengths. Like Bart sweeping the demonworld via Superspeed. The second he brought it up, the other generic heroes were against it, because that would have required writing outside the box, some actual character traits that would make Bart stand out, make him different from the others. And we can't have that, it seems. 
 
Also, as a kind of interlude here. Coming to think of it, have you noticed that JT Krul is basically repeating the Wyld story, just with a couple names switched out? You have the Titans who must enter a demon's world where they're outmanned, outgunned and outclassed, they must fight the evil demon king of said world to save Raven because Raven is not doing quite so well. Then there's small stuff like Bart not being allowed to superspeed through the entire world because of some hackneyed reason and Raven being all "I feel weird". It's the same story. And lo and behold, it doesn't work either when JT Krul tells it.

Posted by Grim

 There's a major difference between changing one or two characters, and changing a universe. Every fan always get pissed when their favorite character gets tweeked, but they get over it because all in all the character and the universe are still the same. 
This is wide change. If every single part of your house changed tomorrow, every wall and every piece of furniture, you wouldnt like it. 
 Dc fans arent being stupid. This whole revamp thing is something that no franchise does unless its already dead because pretty much your taking something that works fine and breaking in in hopes that it will heal well.

Posted by Primmaster64

We just have to be optimistic .

Posted by GundamHeavyarms

I was (and still am) a gamer before I got into comics.  I understand where this rabid fanboyism comes from.  Nostalgia.
When Legend of Zelda The Wind Waker was announced, everybody and their brother gave it a hard time.  "It's too kiddy and cartoonish." They said.  "It pales in comparison to Ocarina of Time." 
They said, and they also said their favorite comment, "THIS GAME SEXUALLY ASSAULTS MY CHILDHOOD!!!!!!111111!!" OOT was fun, but Wind Waker was more fun.
The main criticism came from the fact that the game was cel-shaded.  It did look cartoonish, but that was part of its charm. A surrealistic art style doesn't mean that the game is going to be bad. 
The hate went on and on until the game came out, then it blew people away.  I mean it had its flaws, I hated using the baton every time I had to change direction.  Sailing took a long time, but at least I could go to the bathroom without pausing.  No fishing, an entire sea and nothing in it but those mermen, giant squids, and those sharks?    Then there was Tingle taking all my hard earned Rupees, I killed so many moblins and darknuts to get those rupees.
 
People were too quick to jump the gun on Wind Waker, just like they are with the DC reboot.  We can type in all caps and send angry e-mails about how DC failed us all we want, but the truth is we failed them.  We weren't buying enough books to get the sales levels they wanted.  Yes, turning over the entire universe and having same day online distribution is a last ditch effort to get new readers, but the industry needs new readers in order to survive.  It probably wasn't a purely creative decision perhaps the big wigs at time warner were tired of Marvel outselling DC .  The way I see it, they took lemons and made lemonade.  We don't have to drink it if we don't want to.  I am looking forward to some of these titles. LSH, Legion Lost, Blue Beetle, the Green Lantern stuff , Aquaman, and Static minus Henderson (She was a writer for gossip girl.).  I still hope they might do something with captain marvel even though they can't call him that anymore.  Now is really the perfect time to do it.  
 
Part of me can't help but be optimistic, things are going to fine, its not the end of the world or the end of me reading DC.

Posted by Battlepig
@Grim said:
 There's a major difference between changing one or two characters, and changing a universe. Every fan always get pissed when their favorite character gets tweeked, but they get over it because all in all the character and the universe are still the same.  This is wide change. If every single part of your house changed tomorrow, every wall and every piece of furniture, you wouldnt like it.   Dc fans arent being stupid. This whole revamp thing is something that no franchise does unless its already dead because pretty much your taking something that works fine and breaking in in hopes that it will heal well.
See, here's where I am confused by the fans' reaction to the whole ordeal about DC being desperate. You even go one step further and call it a dead franchise. And still, them trying to do something new with their dead franchise is something bad and a dick move on their part. So my question is this: Why? I mean, if it's a dead franchise or at least in its death throes, what alternatives do we have.
  • They try something new and maybe save the franchise from dying.
  • The entire DCU dies. No more Superman, Batman, Titans and so on.
So yes, them trying to save our beloved characters by doing something new is obviously a bad thing. So DC - or the WB by proxy - should just let the DCU die? Would that be a good thing then, by the fans' logic?
 
I am pretty certain that DC wouldn't pull this move if there wasn't need for it. Either they were at the end of their creative wits. And who can blame them? Various retcons, incompetent writers writing crap stories, plot holes, incessant crossovers have put the Universe in a corner that's amazingly hard to write yourself out of. You do something, it gets in the way of something else. And look at what the best stories were in the past couple of years: The stories that didn't give a damn about continuity and the shared universe. Morrison's Batman-Saga is probably the best example here. It didn't cross over with anything, luckily, and it did whatever it wanted. Meanwhile, something that could be described as "The other Batman" was off with the JLA or with Superman or whatnot. And guess what? It was good. It was very good. Batman suddenly was something more than a generic hero who "does good because doing good things is good". He was borderline psychotic, rather paranoid and for a long while, everyone wondered whether or not Batman has gone off the deep end. However, this could also backfire, as seen with Final Crisis. Morrison did his thing - which was admittedly completely incomprehensible - and every else ignored it.
 
Or they didn't make enough money. A valid complaint, really. Because in the end, comics are about money. And if head office - in this case WB - went "Hey, you people, go make money, because what you've been doing so far was not making enough money" that's totally okay. Because you have Superman who by default is a cashcow. People know who Superman is.They like the idea of Superman. People who probably don't know that Superman is a comic book character wear shirts with the S-shield on them. And that's where you - as the source of the fame - are doing something wrong. If you've got something people like and it doesn't sell, you're obviously not doing it right. Comic books are no longer considered uncool. The medium is nothing short of spectacular in terms of art these days. So why aren't people buying Superman comics? Sure, you can try "Well... they're all downloading it off the internet... illegally!" and you'd have a nice scapegoat. But no, the error clearly is with those who produce the source material. Something as iconic as Superman should not even have to be considered to be failing. 
 
So yeah, even though I went off on a bit of a tangent here, I still don't see why this being a desperation move is a bad thing, regardless of whether it's an economical or a creative decision.
Posted by Grim
@Battlepig: i said UNLESS it was a dead franchise, implying DC was NOT dead. If it was dead, i wouldnt be so angry with this, because its something a dead franchise would do. But i never said DC was dead.
 
  And the Continuity doesnt actually impede anything. Everything you listed i just as prominent in Marvel (except the retcons. But the lack of Retcons brings several inconsistencies in age and time, often over looked or bs'd). If you read all their titles, Marvel has waaaaaay more inconsistencies in timelines, characters, and powers than anyone other company.
 
And Comics ARE still considered uncool. Superheroes are in, but comic sales arent breaking the bank like the movies are because non comics readers STILL dont care for them. 
 DC is behind because Marvel has been riding a wave of money since the early 2000's when Spiderman and Xmen were made. before that, DC was winning this thing, and Marvel was bankrupt. But ever since then Marvel has been getting free advertisement from the companies making their movies, and then with the Disney merge they didnt even have to worry about playing it safe with their money. 
 DC has been being a good, responsible company, and their getting shafted. THIS revamp is because they have been slowly loosing ground to Marvel for a decade, and (your right) someone is putting the pressure on them to do something. But these changes are more than just superficial. They are changes to the core portions of beloved characters. Its changing history. This revamp alters more characters in more ways than any of the retcons ever did. and thats the problem. Not the fact that their is change, but how deep and wide the changes are.
   as i said, you dont make changes like this unless your franchise is already dead. Thats because otherwise you risk losing a large portion of your guaranteed fans, for an uninsured amount reward. Its very unnerving to the fans to know that their loyalty is being tossed under the bus like this.
Posted by HeartBreakKid

As a fan, I couldn't help but get furious over DC when they announced this reboot. After all, it was sudden and absolutely no one expected. I'm sure all of us fear for the unknown: the fate of our favorite characters and stories, writers and artists, etc. But I  might as well give it  a shot, since on paper most of the titles look intriguing. 
 
I just do hope DC sticks to their guns and not reverse this whole reboot a few years down the line. That's a comic book company's "cowards' way out." :|
Posted by Battlepig
@HeartBreakKid said:
As a fan, I couldn't help but get furious over DC when they announced this reboot. After all, it was sudden and absolutely no one expected. I'm sure all of us fear for the unknown: the fate of our favorite characters and stories, writers and artists, etc. But I  might as well give it  a shot, since on paper most of the titles look intriguing.  I just do hope DC sticks to their guns and not reverse this whole reboot a few years down the line. That's a comic book company's "cowards' way out." :|
Heh, they're already chicekening out and doing it Ultimatum-style, it seems. General opinion now is that "Some stories will still have happened", which is quite stupid. Also, I read in a CV-Newspiece that they'll reference those stories in September, which is even more stupid. Because you can't have a "all-new, all-better" and "absolutely accessible" universe if you keep dragging up old stuff nobody cared about anymore.
 
But still, there's some serious talent involved. And while I think that they're being rather daft with their referencing the past all of a sudden again, I'm still optimistic.