Batman Family lacking in diversity

I'm going to start this by saying that Batman is a notorious loner that hangs out with A LOT of people. He has had a multitude of sidekicks, been on many teams, and started many of his own, but shockingly enough his direct family has been lacking in diversity.

Where the white people at!
They all look the same

Out of his direct family we have all the Robins which were white carbon copies of each other (features at least). They tried to make Jason Todd blond but retconed it. The only person out of the Robins that has any form of diversity is Damian Wayne who is biracial. He is half white and half whatever Talia is. But unfortunately DC hasn't realized the potential of that character to play on it, there aren't many multi-ethnic characters out there since people like to make "racial pairs" like Storm and Black Panther, or Black Canary and Green Arrow (and you thought it was just a coincidence they were both blonde, out of the fewer blonde characters out there). Damian Wayne has been treated and drawn like a white person so for all intensive purposes he is white.

Then you have the Batgirls, Barbara who is a red head (which I wish was an example of diversity but red headed females are REALLY common in comics and cartoons), Stephanie who is the only Blonde character in the bat family so she gets points for that (I don't know much of the character and I don't know if she has dealt with any stereotyping due to her hair but I doubt it). And then you have Cassie! The first real step to any diversity, she is Half-Chinese and Half-White. She is almost Damian 1.0, but we actually were aware of her heritage. Unfortunately DC's editorial staff didn't like her tried to ruin her and now got rid of her. They also did the same with Stephanie brown too...

Diversity!

Outside of his family Batman's main team has always been the Justice League, and if I ask you to name who are the members of the Justice League here are the names that might come up: Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, The Flash, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Hawkgirl (the TV show had a lot of influence), and if you have been reading DCnU Cyborg. My point being that you either have to be white to really be on the team for a long time. Multiple attempts have been made to diversify the team the two most famous is for JL cartoon by using John Stewart and now with Cyborg but overall the trend is the character needs to be white (btw Martian Manhunter's alter ego is a white guy). It actually gets even worse with the Justice League because its made up of elitists. You have your billionaires (Batman and Green Arrow), your Royalty (Wonder Woman, and Aquaman), and your superpowers and I mean they are the MOST powerful just by power set alone (Superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, and the Flash) who also happen to be connected to the military/police in some way (except for Superman).

So where have people tried to enter diversity into Batman's world? By his extended teams.

The first real major attempt was the Outsiders which had Black Lightning (he's black), Katana (can you guess that she's japanese), Geo-Force (ok this one isn't obvious, eastern european), Metamorpho (he's a rainbow of colors!), and Halo (who is this naive girl, can you guess what her hair color is). This is a much nobler attempt to diversify Batman's world but the problem is why not introduce someone directly into his family. They have to be extended and from another country. This is repeated in JLI and Batman Inc. All attempts to give us a black Batman, or a brazilian team mate. But thats the thing, they are all from other countries, they don't hail from gotham (other than Black Lightning) but even so they don't work with him in Gotham. They are separate worlds essentially. He has his white gotham, and diverse groups outside of the country.

Getting kicked out for being...

Has the Bat Family made any headway into diversity. I would argue yes, and definitely in the gender and sexuality front. Batman's world has been very good at including strong independent women. At a time there were even more females (Oracle, Huntress, and Batgirl) than males (Nightwing and Robin) that were part of the family. Oracle becoming a major player in all DC, and I would say is the only Bat character that didn't remain in the shadows of Batman. Thats pretty impressive and empowering to women. And on top of that she has been the number one Superhero on a wheel chair for the past 2 decades (and totally outshining Professor X). And since I am at it with people that have disabilities Batman also had a genius mute named Harold working with him. You also have a lot of growth in the Lesbian front with Batwoman (who was ironically introduced to fight claims of Batman's homosexuality, brilliant move DC!), Maggie Sawyer, and Renee Montoya. And best part is I don't feel that their sexuality rules their character so I definitely applaud for that. Though you definitely see how their sexuality plays a role and affects their life.

There is a lot of growth even in the sphere of sexuality though. Gay and bisexual characters are practically non existant, so here's to hoping Harper Row and her brother develop and grow.

Why is this a problem?

1. I am actually going to make a list for this cause there are a multitude of reasons. The first is simple representation and subliminal messaging. Without decent representation of different groups then you get subliminal messaging of the represented groups superiority. A very real example is Superman was first introduced to represent white america. Many of his inicial villains were foreign, and what did he fight for again, Truth, Justice, and The American Way. So there are problems when you constantly present rich white people as the saviors. It might sound ridiculous but the affects of subliminal messaging is powerful, when all you read of black people in the comics are is that they are poor people that need saving, or thugs that rape and beat innocent people (never the crime boss though). It sends this subliminal message that black people are inferior and need white people to save and protect them, that or they are dangerous and avoid them. Plus it ends the perpetuation that Americans are white and anyone else is foreign. Last time I checked everyone tracks their heritage from another country, except Native Americans who are practically extinct (if a group of people can be extinct).

2. Here is an economic reason, if you create characters that have different ethnicities, then people of those ethnicities might start being interested in reading that character. I mean Wonder Woman was an icon for women, and attracted many female readers. Logic doesn't fail that if you create and Arab superhero that more Arabs would start reading it (especially cause the hype around Arab superheroes is usually so dramatic).

3. Batman deals with characters with many psychological issues, heroes and villains. There is a hugely untapped area of stories that are all around diversity and the psychological issues that surround it. A variety of identity issues come up from growing up as a Black person in a white society, constantly having to straighten your hair, dress like a white person, talk like a white person, simply to fit in. I won't go into a rant about it but drug laws highly target African Americans. Latino and Asian-Americans are constantly being used for cheap labor. The issue of being bi racial where people perceive you to be one thing when really you are both. Transgender issues where people are simply just uncomfortable being around you. The double sided discrimination Bi-Sexuals get from both the Homo and Hetero sexual communities. The fact that no matter how many generations your family has been in America Asian's will always be viewed as Asians and not Americans. And the list goes on, and all of it is very juicy untapped character stories.

Now I am not saying diversity for diversities sake is a good thing, in fact that can lead to one note boring characters. But entering diverse characters into the Bat Family can lead to very intriguing story lines. I mean one of my favorite stories that I read was actually how this Arab-American who has the powers of storm is in a plane that is about to fall. He attempts to save the plane but at the same time as Power Girl and Batman, and everything thinks he was the one bringing down the plane. Dealing with his fears, and and what happened to him was REALLY interesting and REALLY real. And it was different from everything else I have read regarding Batman. We've seen the mugging, we've seen the bank robberies, we've seen the murders (all blue collar crimes btw...) but we don't ever see that! And thats what I want!

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Posted by TheCrowbar

They tried to diversify the family, it failed.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

I'd be all for seeing some more diversity in the Bat-family, as I'd love to see as much diversity as possible in comic books. I think progress has been made over the years, but there needs to be more. Maybe we'll see a more obviously non-white Robin when Damian grows up and takes on a new identity, like all the other Robins did.

On the subject of transgendered people, as you briefly mentioned. Could it be that there are already some transpeople in the DC universe already? A lot of transpeople don't publicly discuss their situation, so maybe there's a character or two about already that could be outed at any point. And with Flashpoint changing certain things, we may not know all the details of certain characters histories. They could potentially reveal a secret past of a major character, which would be interesting, and create some more diversity. That could be cool.

Posted by sunofdarkchild

The only time I can remember Stephanie Brown's hair being an issue is when she had it cut for a while and said "when I had long hair I was a dumb blonde. Now that it's short I'm brainy."

Posted by UncannyLantern

What about Batwing? surely he must be some evidence of diversity, I realise that strictly speaking he is not part of the main bat family but still he is involved.

Posted by kid Apollo

i agree with soooo much of what you said. ive been writing my own comic since i was 17 and in those years as ive matured so has my writing. im big on racial diversity, the core of my team has a Canadian, an Irishman, a Native American, Indian (eastern), American, Paraguayan, an Iranian and a Saudi Arabian. it deals with global social issues like people trafficking, racial injustice, drug trafficking, and back-door politics. all things i would consider to be 'real-world' issues. i refer to it as X-men meets Expendables, give me a few years and ill start pumping out books with real world appeal

Posted by moywar700

Batman should get more credit because he has 50% male and 50% female for his supporting cast.Many comics like The Avengers are all straight white male with a female token member(black widow).

Posted by Joygirl

Batwoman is also jewish.

Online
Posted by arnoldoaad

@batshrine: I talked about diversity in one of my blogposts here

and I think the main problem is just that is hard to inject diversity on it without it being genuine and not be interpret as just diversity for diversity sake, and this in turn happens cause all the iconic versions of this characters were white and that was because by the time this characters were created no one gave 2 f*cks about diversity

Batman is White and Robin is white, Jason Todd is white, Alfred is white, and commissioner Gordon is white, and so on

imagine for example if they had been make Gordon black for the relaunch , just because diversity, everyone would object cause is not the same Commissioner Gordon, it is not the same people recognize and try to make those people accept something different is a huge problem

I will do say one thing that is that it doesnt excuse the management of DC of this exact same problem

just look back at Orpheus, who in case you dont know is the first black character to be part of the batman Family and he was killed by Blackmask in the infamous War Games event, right next to Stephanie Brown, who was the first female robin in continuity, who creates the entire problem to begin with, gets tortured and die.

the message that this basically gives is that blacks can be in the batman family, that girls cant be robin, whatever that message was intentional or not it doesnt matter, its still there

and this goes on with things like the deletion of Oracle, Cass Cain and Helena Bertinelli(italian)

nop, only white american males are needed in Batman

Posted by batshrine

@TheCrowbar: How?

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: Could be interesting, but I honestly wouldn't recommend making one of their characters transgender unless its a C list hero, a shape shifter (that isn't alien), or supporting cast. The reason why I say that is cause you would get tremendous backlash from fans and even to me it would seem like a gimmick and a stunt more than an attempt for a meaningful story. However if you create a story and create subtle hints just to get speculation going but don't do it right away and wait 3 years down the line, then sure. Or you can just introduce a transgender character right away. And why I include shape shifting is because in theory you can switch between male and female, so it can really get interesting if the shape shifter realizes they are actually the different gender, or and I may be crossing a line and don't know if its insulting (Due to its inaccuracy and if it is let me know) but maybe after shape shifting so much they actually might start getting confused on what they are.

@sunofdarkchild: Ew who was the writer that wrote that?!?!

@UncannyLantern: So I've mentioned before the problem with Batwing is 2 things, first he isn't part of the main bat group like you mentioned. The second and bigger problem is that whenever they try with diversity they always say the people are from different countries (in the case of Batwing, he is the Batman of "Africa" which is a freaking continent bigger than all of latin america and parts of the US). Why can't we have an African-American or an Asian-American. Plus I am pretty sure we have more African-Americans reading Batman comics than Africans, and I will 100% argue they are not the same thing. The issue with all the ethnically diverse characters in Batman's world, they are for the most part foreign which is a perpetuation of the concept that if you are ethnically anything you must be from that country and not from America.

@moywar700: I do give him that credit! As far as women's rights goes, Batman comics have been #1. Lately how ever its taken kind of a nose dive getting rid of 2 of its heavy hitting females. And even though its only introduced lesbians (my theory the reason being that the artists and male readers would prefer to see two girls kiss and touch than two guys) it has still made a lot of progress as far as LGBTQ representation. Oh and Avengers is guilty of far more sins than even the JLA let alone Batman.

@Joygirl: They just know how to do their girls, Renee is latina, Kate is jewish, and Cassie is half-white...impressive.

Posted by TheCrowbar

@batshrine: They tried to introduce two black characters into the Batfamily and it fell apart.

Posted by batshrine

@arnoldoaad: Yeah I remember that with Orpheus, I was so disappointed when they killed him off. And part of the problem is the characters haven't had the chance to mature long enough and when some writer wants to make something juicy they resort to killing off a character and they don't want to go all out maybe because they don't want the character revived I don't know, they are going to do a newer one so you still have some of the emotion and less outrage. Thats why they wouldn't dare kill off Bruce, Dick, or Barbara permanently (I used to think Tim too but DC has been doing some questionable things lately).

I think the only solution to fixing the problem, is get the character popular on a cartoon series or movie, or have them featured regularly on a Batman title for a while. Thats when the character will stick, really incorporate the character in the mythos. Thats the organic method to popularize a character in my opinion. The more face time they get the more people will want more. I mean its no coincidence that Damnian became a hit or Cassie or Steph, they have been featured regularly for a while and got ample face time. Orpheus was essentially introduced and killed. Onyx his sidekick (which may I mention is foreign) just disappeared. And hey I say bring her back maybe even as a body guard for Harper Row at first, but then at leas you get someone with regular face time.

But ya I totally agree with what you said in your post and in your article, and ya they are really purging Batman of all its diversity, and I don't know its on purpose or not but its gotta stop. I am however not in favor of changing any of the characters to make them more diverse. I think that is trying to create change just cause. However I wouldn't mind making one of the Robin's bisexual cause there is a lack of bisexual characters just in general and Jason, Tim, and Damian are all in ages where its possible for them to come out (Jason or Tim) or to realize they like both genders (Damian). And it makes another way to separate them so they aren't copies of each other with different personalities.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@batshrine: @batshrine said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: Could be interesting, but I honestly wouldn't recommend making one of their characters transgender unless its a C list hero, a shape shifter (that isn't alien), or supporting cast. The reason why I say that is cause you would get tremendous backlash from fans and even to me it would seem like a gimmick and a stunt more than an attempt for a meaningful story. However if you create a story and create subtle hints just to get speculation going but don't do it right away and wait 3 years down the line, then sure. Or you can just introduce a transgender character right away. And why I include shape shifting is because in theory you can switch between male and female, so it can really get interesting if the shape shifter realizes they are actually the different gender, or and I may be crossing a line and don't know if its insulting (Due to its inaccuracy and if it is let me know) but maybe after shape shifting so much they actually might start getting confused on what they are.

Yeah, considering the amount of complaints I've seen about making Alan Scott gay, there definitely would be some backlash if they made someone well known trans. Introducing a new character who's trans would be fine, if they were included frequently in a high profile title. If they just created a new character and put them in a new title, people could ignore or boycott them much easier. Changing an existing character would get more attention, but maybe it's not the best way in the long run. I think a shapeshifter would be a mistake though, as it'd make it too straightforward and take out loads of potential backstory. A supporting character could work, like a friend or love interest of a main character, and they could maybe eventually move up to become a crimefighter/hero of their own. There are ways of doing it, but it would need to be done well. I expect a lot of people would hate the idea though no matter what, which is unfortunate.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@moywar700 said:

Batman should get more credit because he has 50% male and 50% female for his supporting cast.Many comics like The Avengers are all straight white male with a female token member(black widow).

The Avengers do have some diversity though. They have Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel), Scarlet Witch, Wasp, Spider-Woman, Tigra, etc representing women. Luke Cage, Black Panther and Monica Rambeau(former Captain Marvel) are black, and I'm sure there are some other ethnicities represented, just can't think who right now. Can't think of any gay Avengers though. Anyone know any?

Edited by batshrine

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: If it makes you feel better I don't! I think its a great idea, and I honestly think the main element of having a shapeshifter thats lost is the ability to change back, and lack of the drama of going through the operation itself. But all the psychological issues are still there.

OH and with the Alan Scott thing, I wasn't pissed at all I mean its a new universe, and you can do whatever you want to the characters as long as the core essence is there. I mean they did that with Colossus too in the Ultimate universe and it didn't bug me then either. My only concern is that I love Obsidian as a character and now that Alan Scott is younger and gay chances of us getting his son is low. However on the plus side, he might fall for a guy named Todd...who has the same powers as obsidian and goes by that code name...Then that would be super cute a character that shoots light dating a character thats all about darkness.

And ya historically Avengers has had diversity but this is the core Avengers group and most iconic

Captain America - White Male, War Hero

Iron Man - White Male, Billionaire

Thor - White Male, God

Hulk - White Male, Scientist

Hank Pym - White Male, Scientist (and does he own his own company too?!?!)

Wasp - White Female, Wife of Hank Pym

Hawkeye - White Male, Circus?!?

Black Panther - Black Male, African Royalty

And then the roster really fluctuates. Notice you have a token female, and she is attached to another character. And then you have a token black guy, who is still part of an elite, and he is foreign.

(Btw I have nothing against non Americans, but its just always perplexing that on American teams the diversity is usually not American...or at most naturalized)

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@batshrine:I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you talking about a shapeshifter who loses their powers while in the unwanted form, and has to go through the normal medical procedures to become who they really are?

Posted by batshrine

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: No I mean with a shapeshifter you don't have the struggle trans people go through when it comes to the surgery and everything. Plus another thing is unlike Trans people which go through permanent changes, shape shifters could always change back...if they wanted too. Btw I added an edit to my above post regarding Alan Scott and my opinions lol

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@batshrine said:

OH and with the Alan Scott thing, I wasn't pissed at all I mean its a new universe, and you can do whatever you want to the characters as long as the core essence is there. I mean they did that with Colossus too in the Ultimate universe and it didn't bug me then either. My only concern is that I love Obsidian as a character and now that Alan Scott is younger and gay chances of us getting his son is low. However on the plus side, he might fall for a guy named Todd...who has the same powers as obsidian and goes by that code name...Then that would be super cute a character that shoots light dating a character thats all about darkness.

It seems like anything can happen in comic books, so I suppose that could happen. A dark and light couple is an interesting idea, and would prove that 'opposites attract' thing. But yeah, if the character still has their core values intact, changing their sexuality is fine by me.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@batshrine: @batshrine said:

And ya historically Avengers has had diversity but this is the core Avengers group and most iconic

Captain America - White Male, War Hero

Iron Man - White Male, Billionaire

Thor - White Male, God

Hulk - White Male, Scientist

Hank Pym - White Male, Scientist (and does he own his own company too?!?!)

Wasp - White Female, Wife of Hank Pym

Hawkeye - White Male, Circus?!?

Black Panther - Black Male, African Royalty

And then the roster really fluctuates. Notice you have a token female, and she is attached to another character. And then you have a token black guy, who is still part of an elite, and he is foreign.

(Btw I have nothing against non Americans, but its just always perplexing that on American teams the diversity is usually not American...or at most naturalized)

I suppose it's like The Justice League, all white with a token woman, but I think that's because people were less open to diversity back in the day. I'm glad it's progressed since then, Though, it's a bit disappointing that with the New 52 they had a perfect opportunity to make another woman a founding member, but didn't.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@batshrine said:

@arnoldoaad: Yeah I remember that with Orpheus, I was so disappointed when they killed him off. And part of the problem is the characters haven't had the chance to mature long enough and when some writer wants to make something juicy they resort to killing off a character and they don't want to go all out maybe because they don't want the character revived I don't know, they are going to do a newer one so you still have some of the emotion and less outrage. Thats why they wouldn't dare kill off Bruce, Dick, or Barbara permanently (I used to think Tim too but DC has been doing some questionable things lately).

I thought Orpheus was extremely generic but i didnt thought that he should die

I think the only solution to fixing the problem, is get the character popular on a cartoon series or movie, or have them featured regularly on a Batman title for a while. Thats when the character will stick, really incorporate the character in the mythos. Thats the organic method to popularize a character in my opinion. The more face time they get the more people will want more. I mean its no coincidence that Damnian became a hit or Cassie or Steph, they have been featured regularly for a while and got ample face time. Orpheus was essentially introduced and killed. Onyx his sidekick (which may I mention is foreign) just disappeared. And hey I say bring her back maybe even as a body guard for Harper Row at first, but then at leas you get someone with regular face time.

sorry, but that is not a real solution and i will tell you why, because it has exactly the same problem

I kind say this in another blogpost i made(btw all my blogs are here too) in which i commented why is Barbara the Iconic Batgirl, because at the end of the day thats what matters isnt it, well the original batgirl was created for only a stunt and was dropped really fast then the Adam West Tv show came along and created Barb mainly cause they wanted a pretty lady on it, the next thing that follows is the Batman Animated Series, why is Barb Batgirl there? cause there was no other option, the Cassandra Cain is not created until 1999 and by the time she came the speculation market had collapsed and the TV show was approaching its final seasons, and you would never see someone like Barb going through TKJ in there cause is a children's show

so there was no way to put Cass in the show by the time her series was starting cause they already had a batgirl and want it to play safe, now what is the excuse for only using barb in all he subsequent shows that came after, because she is he most known, thats it.

and just for another example of why Cartoon Network sucks so much

This is a character design for a series name Dark Knights, which was suppose to replace Brave and the Bold, the premise of the story, 3 words, NO MAN'S LAND, and it had as you can see, Catwoman, Nightwing, Damian Wayne as Robin, and older Bruce Wayne, and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl, BUT CN executives thought that it was TO Dark and Grim for Cartoon Network, so the idea didnt float Source

Talking about missing chances, though that later would become the spot for Young Justice.

and now Katana is going to be part of Beware Batman, a series that is pretty much already hated on premise at all, that has Alfred using RAYguns (because of the Aurora Shootings) and Katana is part of the CIA, she is not in the comic, she has barely no connection to anything remotely Batman like now

My point is this. It is already very hard to see diversity in TV Shows that are based on comics, and even that is there, that doesnt really translate in comics, where is Aqualad now? where are the Milestone guys?

they have the characters, they just dont use them

But ya I totally agree with what you said in your post and in your article, and ya they are really purging Batman of all its diversity, and I don't know its on purpose or not but its gotta stop. I am however not in favor of changing any of the characters to make them more diverse. I think that is trying to create change just cause. However I wouldn't mind making one of the Robin's bisexual cause there is a lack of bisexual characters just in general and Jason, Tim, and Damian are all in ages where its possible for them to come out (Jason or Tim) or to realize they like both genders (Damian). And it makes another way to separate them so they aren't copies of each other with different personalities.

and the funniest part is that Batman Inc was actually trying a very diverse approach, now there are like 2 women in INC.

Edited by ngroove

Answer to "diversity" question: BATMAN INCORPORATED by Grant Morrison. There's a BATMEN OF ALL NATIONS and ethnicities, although still looking for new adventures of Brit Batman now, he's gone.

If that doesn't satisfy, tough. Even before, Batman has always been an all-time comics-merchandising-media superhero number 1 or 2, depending on Superman success of the peroid.

Posted by batshrine

@ngroove: The answer to free slaves, segregation! If that doesn't satisfy, tough...

And yeah since Batman is number 1, Batman should pave the way in representation and should be a hero that can speak to all people in all different levels.

Posted by ngroove

@batshrine said:

@ngroove: The answer to free slaves, segregation! If that doesn't satisfy, tough...

And yeah since Batman is number 1, Batman should pave the way in representation and should be a hero that can speak to all people in all different levels.

Being Number 1, already means anybody and everybody, universally, reads, enjoys Batman - and I'm sure it's been like that in the sixties to the nineties also, back when the "Bat-Family" was still only down to only two or three members at once, rather than an entire mess of them.

Posted by redhoodnet

I would be all for it. To be honest I never really thought about it until I read your post. I doubt that it was intentional but it would be nice to see it shaken up a bit.

Posted by roboadmiral

Personally I think the "Bat-Family" is getting a bit big and could use some thinning of the ranks, which I guess doesn't really help the whole diversity situation. I'm of the opinion that the quality of characters should come first. I'm neither enthused nor put off by the introduction of characters of various minorities or genders; I don't particularly care. Is the writing good? Are the characters interesting? That is the extent of my interest in the matter. Except in the situation of Robin. He is specifically "The Boy Wonder" and should be male. Then again, I'm not terribly fond of Robin (although I tend to like the characters they become after going solo) and would be perfectly okay with Damian being the last one.

Posted by Vortex13

I was actually thinking about this the other day.

Edited by arnoldoaad

@batshrine said:

@ngroove: The answer to free slaves, segregation! If that doesn't satisfy, tough...

And yeah since Batman is number 1, Batman should pave the way in representation and should be a hero that can speak to all people in all different levels.

well you kind have to start somewhere though it would had help that they hadnt eliminated all the popular diverse characters

@ngroove said:

@batshrine said:

@ngroove: The answer to free slaves, segregation! If that doesn't satisfy, tough...

And yeah since Batman is number 1, Batman should pave the way in representation and should be a hero that can speak to all people in all different levels.

Being Number 1, already means anybody and everybody, universally, reads, enjoys Batman - and I'm sure it's been like that in the sixties to the nineties also, back when the "Bat-Family" was still only down to only two or three members at once, rather than an entire mess of them.

no, its not that everyone loves it, But the point is that right now Batman is the most mainstream among the mainstream comics

Posted by TimeLordScience

You forgot Batwoman. She's a lesbian.

Posted by batshrine

@TimeLordScience: Nope I mentioned her. She's not the only lesbian in the Bat world too, there are plenty more!

Posted by ThanosIsMad

@batshrine said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose: If it makes you feel better I don't! I think its a great idea, and I honestly think the main element of having a shapeshifter thats lost is the ability to change back, and lack of the drama of going through the operation itself. But all the psychological issues are still there.

OH and with the Alan Scott thing, I wasn't pissed at all I mean its a new universe, and you can do whatever you want to the characters as long as the core essence is there. I mean they did that with Colossus too in the Ultimate universe and it didn't bug me then either. My only concern is that I love Obsidian as a character and now that Alan Scott is younger and gay chances of us getting his son is low. However on the plus side, he might fall for a guy named Todd...who has the same powers as obsidian and goes by that code name...Then that would be super cute a character that shoots light dating a character thats all about darkness.

And ya historically Avengers has had diversity but this is the core Avengers group and most iconic

Captain America - White Male, War Hero

Iron Man - White Male, Billionaire

Thor - White Male, God

Hulk - White Male, Scientist

Hank Pym - White Male, Scientist (and does he own his own company too?!?!)

Wasp - White Female, Wife of Hank Pym

Hawkeye - White Male, Circus?!?

Black Panther - Black Male, African Royalty

And then the roster really fluctuates. Notice you have a token female, and she is attached to another character. And then you have a token black guy, who is still part of an elite, and he is foreign.

(Btw I have nothing against non Americans, but its just always perplexing that on American teams the diversity is usually not American...or at most naturalized)

Wasp is asian tho.

Posted by batshrine

@ThanosIsMad: OH is she, ha I had no idea!

Posted by arnoldoaad

@ThanosIsMad said:

Wasp is asian tho.

@batshrine said:

@ThanosIsMad: OH is she, ha I had no idea!

She is only Asian in the Ultimate Universe

where she was killed and eaten by the Ultimate Blob

Posted by Frito

Aquaman should be Filipino, Green Lantern should be gay, Flash should be Jamaican, Green Arrow should be a Chinese Billionaire, Batman should stay white, and Wonder Woman should be a smoking hot Persian.

Sounds ideal bro?

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@Frito said:

Aquaman should be Filipino, Green Lantern should be gay, Flash should be Jamaican, Green Arrow should be a Chinese Billionaire, Batman should stay white, and Wonder Woman should be a smoking hot Persian.

Sounds ideal bro?

Fine by me, but what about Superman?

Posted by arnoldoaad

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Frito said:

Aquaman should be Filipino, Green Lantern should be gay, Flash should be Jamaican, Green Arrow should be a Chinese Billionaire, Batman should stay white, and Wonder Woman should be a smoking hot Persian.

Sounds ideal bro?

Fine by me, but what about Superman?

well he is already an alien

I do like that at least now WW lives in London instead of Washington DC

yay diversity

Edited by batshrine

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@Frito said:

Aquaman should be Filipino, Green Lantern should be gay, Flash should be Jamaican, Green Arrow should be a Chinese Billionaire, Batman should stay white, and Wonder Woman should be a smoking hot Persian.

Sounds ideal bro?

Fine by me, but what about Superman?

He'd be a black Kryptonian, oops... I mean an African Kryptonian

And now for something serious:

http://www.comicbookbin.com/Gail_Simone_to_Write_Trans_001.html

I think its kinda funny coincidence though its following the trend for Bat books. I bet its going to be a MtF cause well that seems to be the trend...

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@batshrine: Oh hey, that's good to hear. It'd be interesting if they went with an FtM character, as they're a lot less represented than MtFs in things generally. Either way, nice to see another transperson appearing in a comic book. :)

Posted by Beast_in_the_Shadows

You know, I had similar grievances when they made Babs Batgirl again. I mean, they had a differently-abled character who came about her injury from a genuine story and not a device to add diversity. And they continued to write her well and make her kick just as much ass as anyone else in the Bat family. Then they reboot the entire universe and reduce that part of her life to several months of rehabilitation and she didn't start kicking ass until she "got better" I mean, they had such a progressive character who was awesome in her own right that kids with disabilities could look up to and they throw that away so the fanboys could have their favorite Batgirl back...

And I've always had a problem with every single robin being a clone of the last. Kinda reminded me of Barbie and all her "sisters" of varying ages.

Posted by TheCrowbar

Wait...I just realized. What about Batwing?

Posted by Selinaky

I wish they would explore and show more of Damian's Middle-Eastern (I believe?) heritage and language.

Posted by batshrine

@TheCrowbar: Batwing is like any of the other Bat characters that have been made to add diversity. And there are two problems with that, first he isn't part of the main family, he is from a group associated with Batman (Batman Inc and Outsiders are the two main teams). The second part is almost all the diverse characters are from another country, which perpetuates that only white people are really American. Plus there is a third issue I have about him and that he's the "Batman of Africa" So while England gets 2 Batmen and a Robin and its just some small islands, Batwing gets the second biggest continent in the WORLD. And just to give you an idea of how big Africa really is, Sudan as a country is bigger than Alaska, Texas, and California combined.

@Selinaky: To be honest I agree that would be cool. And we only know he is 1/8th chinese, and 1/2 american. The rest we really have no idea what he is. Ras Al Ghul does mean the Head of the Demon in arabic, but being such a world figure it doesn't mean he is middle eastern cause his people and his language died along time ago (Ras Al Ghul made sure of that) so we don't know where they are from and there is no historical records of their existence. Regardless i highly doubt he was only spoken to in English so ya he has some culture behind him, what is it!

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@Beast_in_the_Shadows said:

You know, I had similar grievances when they made Babs Batgirl again. I mean, they had a differently-abled character who came about her injury from a genuine story and not a device to add diversity. And they continued to write her well and make her kick just as much ass as anyone else in the Bat family. Then they reboot the entire universe and reduce that part of her life to several months of rehabilitation and she didn't start kicking ass until she "got better" I mean, they had such a progressive character who was awesome in her own right that kids with disabilities could look up to and they throw that away so the fanboys could have their favorite Batgirl back...

And I've always had a problem with every single robin being a clone of the last. Kinda reminded me of Barbie and all her "sisters" of varying ages.

Seems weird to me too, getting rid of a character representing a minority, when they had other Batgirls to choose from. Actually, does that mean DC only changed Oracle because they don't like Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown? That's a really pathetic reason to make that change.

I agree on the Robins. There was Carrie Kelly, but she wasn't canon, and Stephanie Brown, but she's been deleted. Maybe the next Robin will be a different ethnicity or at least hair colour.

Posted by MuyJingo

@batshrine said:

Without decent representation of different groups then you get subliminal messaging of the represented groups superiority.

2. Here is an economic reason, if you create characters that have different ethnicities, then people of those ethnicities might start being interested in reading that character. I mean Wonder Woman was an icon for women, and attracted many female readers. Logic doesn't fail that if you create and Arab superhero that more Arabs would start reading it (especially cause the hype around Arab superheroes is usually so dramatic).

To point 1, I never really understand that point. Most of the US is white. if what creates a superhero/metahuman is random, then most superheros/metahuman should also be white. It is reflecting the racial distribution in society. Do you want that ignored, and instead have a more equal distribution for fantasy purposes?

To the second point, I would like to say Simon Baz.

Posted by MuyJingo

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@batshrine: Oh hey, that's good to hear. It'd be interesting if they went with an FtM character, as they're a lot less represented than MtFs in things generally. Either way, nice to see another transperson appearing in a comic book. :)

Yes, cause in the real world MtF are by far more common. Hence being more represented.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@MuyJingo: I know. I think MtFs are about three times as common as FtMs, but I don't think representation in things reflects that.

Posted by MuyJingo

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@MuyJingo: I know. I think MtFs are about three times as common as FtMs, but I don't think representation in things reflects that.

I think representation should be proportional to the numbers of the people being represented.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@MuyJingo: Exactly.

Posted by MuyJingo

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@MuyJingo: Exactly.

Cool. So there isn't any issue. Glad we agree.

Posted by CptPanda29

Batman Inc. tried to help this but it came of kinda racist with an army of "box tickers".

Also if Bruce Wayne adopts a black kid and then Robin is black all of a sudden (massively over simplifying but w/e) people are going to notice.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@MuyJingo:Are we definitely talking about the same thing? That if transgendered people are to be represented, the ratio of FtMs to MtFs should reflect the real life figures?

Posted by MuyJingo

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@MuyJingo:Are we definitely talking about the same thing? That if transgendered people are to be represented, the ratio of FtMs to MtFs should reflect the real life figures?

Yup.

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