The Top Ten Worst Retcons of The New 52

Last year, I made a list of the best and worst DC comics of 2011 and I was thinking of doing that again, but the thing is that I already did another list of the best and worst of the first year of the relaunch and I really feel like there is nothing essential that I can add to either of those lists.

So, I decided on a new list that might be a little more interesting

The Top Ten Best and Worst Retcons of the Relaunch.

I have to admit that I have disliked certain aspects of the relaunch but one of the worst of all is the retcons, some have been good and some have been bad.

I have read mostly all the comics that DC has to offer since the relaunch and a ton of other comics before that, and here I present a list of changes that I really hated in this new Universe

BE WARN, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS

TOP 10 WORST RETCONS OF THE NEW 52

10- Jason Todd Trained by Monks.

I really love Jason Todd, I think he is a character with a ton of potential, he is the robin that went bad, it is a classic trope but is very well carried out by Judd Winick on Under the Hood, both on comic form and on the animated movie, its just a great story for the character. But if there is a major problem with this character is that DC Editorial has NO IDEA what to do with him.

Look for example Ed Brubaker's Winter Soldier saga which shows a lot of parallels to Jason's story. The reason why Brubaker had such huge success with that story is because he knew where he was going and where he wanted to go with it. He planned the beginning, the middle and the end. On the other hand with Jason it is very obvious that Winick had a plan and the editorial had another one, and then another one, and another one and another one.

This is the perfect example of bad retconning, just a change that is made because you had no idea where you were suppose to go with it.

Less than a year before the relaunch, DC launched a miniseries: Red Hood: The Lost Days, written by Judd Winick

In this story Judd tells the story of the time between Death in the family and Hush and details how Jason becomes Redhood.

Because of this comic and the animated film that came before it one would expect that the new 52 will have the same origin with a just few revises.

Wrong!

Instead what we have here is that after Jason was revived by Talia Al Ghul, she send him to a temple in order to train and become a super ninja or something.

why? what is the point of making this connection?

Nothing, It just makes no sense to take this path because after all Jason has always been a character that is a street level vigilante, being part of a secret cult that protects the world makes no sense and detracts from his entire backstory.

The reasoning of Jason to train on Lost Days was because when he revived he realized that Bruce's way is wrong. He trains, not to fight evil but to destroy evil and finally take revenge against Bruce for letting the Joker live after his own death. It is a travel of anger and revenge.

If the new origin is made to serve a point then that point is to turn Jason from an antihero to a hero again, but it doesnt work.

DC cannot even decide themselves on his hair color much less if he should be a villain or a hero or an antihero and this is the example of a good idea that turns into nothing for way too many rewrites and to much indisposition,.

9- The Amazons, a Race of Rapists and Murderers.

I have to say that I love Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman, its full with a lot energy and just brilliant ideas all over it, but this is not one of those

Basically the origin of the amazons is thatv they go outside of Themisira every 3 decades or so to have a big orgy and breed the next generation of Amazons, the boys are sold into slavery.

Now, the idea of the entire run of Azzarello is to play with Wonder Woman as it was a Greek Myth, and there are certain myths that can back this up, but there are many different other myths on amazons that dont.

My biggest problem is this: what is the point of doing this?

This just basically vilify the entire race of the Amazons, which maybe would be an interesting aspect to explore, If the Amazons actually do anything in the book, but they dont. They all were turn into snakes in an earlier chp, so this entire theme of just tainting the race doesnt seem to have an end or at least one that can come soon. It is very possible that it will be explored down the line but it still doesnt feel right

The original story of the amazons in WW is basically established as a means of female empowerment. This new origin is basically going 180 on that idea by making them into monsters and savages in all the sense of the word but what is really weak of this retcon is that It has a massive plothole on it and is that Wonder Woman had no idea of this evil backstory.

How is that even possible?

One would assume that if she is an amazon then all amazons should know about their own culture and ergo know this story, and one would expect that her being the princess of the Amazons then she would be the first in line for the next orgy/rape/killing party and would be prepared for that.

so on one side it is a pretty gruesome idea and the fact that it was a secret makes no sense at all

8- NO JL:GL.

Justice League: Generation Lost is one of the finest superhero books I have ever read, it is just a great story with great characters and an impressive villain. Maxwell Lord returns to life and erases his own presence from the entire world but only a selected group of heroes remember him and are able to stop him, it cannot have more basic of a premise but its execution is just masterful and the story ends with a cliffhanger:

Who wouldnt get hype after that

Unless the entire storyline lead to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Justice League International is by far the most disappointing title of the New 52. it just destroys all that character development achieved in the span of years. Characters like Booster Gold who over the course 5-6 years build himself up into an amazing hero and all that experience is gone as well as the developments Ice, Fire and Red Rocket who are just left behind and unceremoniously removed from the book after 5 issues. All the relationships between them just gone.

It is just a real shame, so much potential, so many possibilities and all gone

7- Green Arrow's Guilt Trip.

Green Arrow is just like JLI, one of those properties that got the treatment of a 100% reboot. The result left a lot to be desire and personally I detest the character now. He seems to have lost every single thing that made him interesting in the first place but for me the worst part is his new origin.

Everyone who knows GA knows his origin. He is a jerk, he ends up in an island and he becomes less of a jerk and decides to be a hero.

It is very simple but Green Lantern #0 decided to give an extra weight to that origin.

So he has a party in the most inconvenient place possible and then the place is attacked by cyborg pirates and he decides to play hero and gets everyone killed.

I dont really think I need to elaborate here, it is very easy to understand why this fails. He already had a reason to feel guilty and is because he had an easy life, his travel to the island make him a more mature man. it heals him and he doesnt need the guilt of losing his friends because he still has the guilt of being the arrogant jerk he always was.

6- Lobo, A Generic Alien Invader.

Deathstroke by Rob Liefeld was an abomination on the new 52, Hawkman or Grifter had pros and cons of their own but Deathstroke is without a doubt some of the worst that DC can offer and no other character suffer worse than Lobo.

The story itself is just very confusing because it seems to be made by a bunch of entangling ideas that doesnt really connect on anyways.

For example: Lobo was captured for years on earth and then got free and his first idea is to go after the guy who locked him in, but he doesnt do that, instead plans to blow up a bomb that will destroy the entire planet, this 2 arent the same plot, it is not like he is taking revenge by killing humanity, he planned on killing first guy and then he said "forget that, lets destroy Earth".

What is even more confusing is that he is suppose to be The Last Czarnian, and he is refer as the last Czarnian in the comic but he is not the last one because he has a girlfriend who is also Czarnian.

The story is very stupid and the character is just generic and uninteresting and it all ends with Lobo being blew up by a single bomb from Deathstroke. Quite a change for the guy who once fought on par with Atrocious and Solaris.

Lobo VS Solaris

.

5- Helena Bertinelli is Dead

No need for details. This one is a real tragedy, I think that World's Finest is a pretty bad comic however I still believe that the idea of Helena Wayne can has the potential for some very interesting stories but Bertinelli was that version of the character that everybody knew, loved and respected.

Helena Berinelli is the Iconic Huntress, by saying that she is effectively gone DC is just saying that this new persona of Helena Wayne has nothing to do with he and therefore they are losing every single fan of Bertinelli with this move.

The Problem is very simple. Why cant we have both?

4- Batman recruits Jason after he catches him stealing drugs.

Redhood and the Outlaws #0 presents a tons of retcons that imply that the Joker was behind every single aspect of Jason's life which makes absolutely no sense, but they can perfectly be explained by as "Unreliable Narrator" since it shows Joker confessing all of this. It felt like a Deadpool comic where he just breaks the 4th wall to tell a joke so it cannot be taken seriously.

However this part is different.

In my mind there are only 3 really important stories in Jason's continuity: How he died, How he returned and How he became Robin. That last one is not something easy to forget or dismiss.

It follows a very funny comic-book logic in which a young kid sees the Batmobile and decide to steal its tires and because of certain circumstances it works.

Winick did a marvelous job with that same funny idea in Batman 645.

This is a good retcon, an easy explanation to how an event happen, it gives it sense and respect.

compare it to the original

and lets also see the same for Nightwing Year One

BATMAN'S METHOD OF RECRUITMENT

Its a little different but stealing the Batmovile's is still part of the origin

and now the new origin

It just there.

In the original car sequence, it leaves a mark, not only in the readers but on Batman, here he is just a random thief and Leslie just tells him to not turn him in. Yeah! that's robin material

I just dont get it.

It is not that this particular origin is bad but is uneventful and unmemorable compared with the iconic car theft. It needed to be equal or better and it failed

3- Danny saves Barbara's Life and other retcons on TKJ.

I Love The Killing Joke, its one of the best written batman books, and one of the things that really calls my attention of it is that is compltely solid, there are no holes, it just a terrible event happen, we get a story about that, and there is no questions about it.

In TKJ, Joker shots Barbara and when he leaves a friend of Barb name Collen Reese finds her and calls the police, its just that simple there is no hole, there is nothing to add or subtract from it.

So I really do not get the point of retcon it like this which does nothing but poking holes on TKJ to make a progression in the story.

it tries to be emotional but it is not, we get a throwaway character who means nothing to us to die and get a redemption by death but such redemption accomplishes nothing.

But the worst part is that it just soils the entire idea of Barbara's shooting, she didnt survived, she was saved and by this guy, really? and Why? just because he felt like going against the Joker and call the police for no reason, it makes no sense.

the issue also establishes that Jim Gordon was never in the room when she was shot which that sole fact is just unforgivable, it focuses the entire point of The Killing Joke into Barb getting injured and that just misses the point of the rest story, it literally transforms her injury into a punchline, she was a victim before, but now she is defined Just as a victim, and nothing else.

It is just completely unnecessary, it adds nothing to the story and just makes another story looks worse and made less sense.

That is the definition of a bad retcon.

2- Catwoman's Origin.

Catwoman is a character that has had a ton of different origins for years, personally my favorite one was the Dark Victory origin which makes her into the secret daughter of Carline Falcone.

And then we have Catwoman #0 by Ann Nocenti which pretty much mixes up a ton of origins of Catwoman culminating in the Batman Returns origin.

It really feels like Nocenti had absolutely no sense of originality, that she just couldnt come up with her own idea for Catwoman and had to copy a movie that is not even that good.

It just blows my mind that editor read this and just said "yeah thats ok"

I dont get it, Why would you do that?

This origin worked well in the twisted world of Tim Burton where the Penguin has trained penguins with rockets on their backs but in the new 52 you would expect a serious story.

The origin is not only stupid, it makes the character look bad, it is the origin of a weak minded woman who is a lousy thief and then her motivations change because she thrown off a building and she is licked by cats, It just fails on every possible level.

1- Tim Drake, Never a Robin, Never Tim Drake.

There is a problem with DC editors.

I wouldnt mind if they just get bad ideas and roll with them until those cant roll anymore, but thats not what happens, they get an idea and implement it and then they say "you know what! I have another idea" which contradicts the first one, I have seen people blame Scott Lodbell for this, but Scott Snyder made the exact same "mistake" of calling Tim Drake a former Robin.

The retcon goes like this: because of the idea of the 5 year compression which is suffocating the entire continuity of the new 52 we had to have a very short and compressed period of time in which Tim Drake was Robin and then became Red Robin in no more than 1-2 years however instead of that some high editor of DC snore this LOAD of cocaine and then thought "Hey! what if Tim Drake was just Red Robin all along" and the other guys were like "yeah whateva" but someone either forgot to tell the writers or that coke party was made later so we had panels which name Tim as robin and despite this they all were like "nah, we fix it later"

Im joking, but this is a serious problem the starts at the very top of DC and sends a sh*tstorm raining down all the other books and you can see it in many other books but the main problem of this retcon goes with this:

IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!

let me explain.

Tim Drake has been Robin for almost 20 years, he is the robin of an entire generation, hell maybe 2 generations. He has been portray in multiple media including the recent Young Justice Cartoon and he is basically the most important figure of the so called 3rd generation heroes, he is the new leader of the Teen Titans and you can bet that when DC relaunched the title they avoided giving him his own title cause they want TT to be that Tim Drake book.

So now this retcon is saying that he wasnt Robin, now i will ask: Why?, but I do know the reason

The reason is very simple, Damian Wayne was Robin and Tim is Red Robin, by making Tim retroactively into Red Robin it tries to boost the presence of the brand of Red Robin as a character

The problem with this is that it doesnt mean anything. Being Red Robin from the beginning accomplishes nothing because he is still a robin, he is still for all practical purposes the same thing, the same first costume, the same interaction with batman, the only difference is the name.

So, if this change will have such a meaningless and almost inconsequential effect...

THEN WHY THE HELL ARE YOU DOING IT?

Red Robin is not just another costume is pinnacle of 20 years of stories. What Nightwing means for Dick Grayson is what Red Robin means for Tim Drake, It is that next step for him where he says "I am no longer robin, I am my own man" by removing that transition you are basically removing all the character development achieve after 20+ years of history and at the same time pissing off the fans of the character because he was Robin for years. For many he is still The Robin and by taking that away from him DC is making him into something lesser, or at least it is giving us the perception that he is less.

The issue of Teen Titans #0 is actually not that bad, it is by no means equal to "A lonely place to die" but is enjoyable and shows a lot of good ideas that makes the new story of Tim Drake work. But retconning his name and his identity just serves absolutely no purpose to anyone otherwise why are Jason Todd and Dick Grayson robins but not him?

DC gains nothing with this and in theory DC lost nothing either but it changes parameters to result in an effect that no one desires.

End of Blog Post

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44 Comments
44 Comments
Posted by ComicStooge

The whole New 52 was a bad idea.

Posted by MatKrenz

Okay your view point for issue 7 of Wonder Woman I agree with. I myself did not have a huge problem that it was changed but Azz hasn't done anything with it yet which is weird, but who knows he might do something later on

JLI: BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT OF THE RELAUNCH. I loved the crap out of Generation Lost, hell it beat out X-Factor as favorite ongoing series but JLI was just a bland superhero team book.

Jason Todd: I also agree on both things for him. Lobdell is not an extraordinary writer, he's very mediocre. He has good ideas but he squanders them very quickly.

Posted by TheCrowbar

I like the change to Wonder Woman's mythos, it lays the foundation for a great potential villian.

Posted by GunGunW

@ComicStooge said:

The whole New 52 was a bad idea.

Posted by SUNMAN

agree with ome of these but not others

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TheCrowbar said:

I like the change to Wonder Woman's mythos, it lays the foundation for a great potential villian.

cause that was such a great idea during Amazons Attack and Gail's Run

look there are certain aspects that might be interesting to develop in the future about this but it still doesnt make any sense that Diana had absolutely no idea that her own culture was a bunch of savage rapist women

@SUNMAN said:

agree with some of these but not others

I would expect that, but which ones?

Posted by SupBatz

Agreed on nearly all accounts. Particularly Helena Bertinelli being dead. That one cuts me deep.

While we're on the subject of changes to The Killing Joke, I hate that they're trying to give Joker a definitive origin. TKJ painted Joker's origin as completely ambiguous and arbitrary - probably the best way to approach his origin. But it's pretty much guarenteed that he was thrown into the vat of chemicals now (Suicide Squad 6-7, and alluded to in Batman 13). And it looks like Snyder is aiming towards showing Joker pre-transformation as some sort of mobster who already is showing Joker-like traits (Batman 0). TKJ is just not something you want to mess with when you're a Batman writer.

Posted by TheCrowbar

@arnoldoaad: Not sure what you mean please explain?

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: Not sure what you mean please explain?

you said that you like the change on the amazons cause it makes them a great potential villains

well that has already been done before with very poor results

and even thought there are possibilities coming from this, it still makes no sense that Diana had no idea about the rape trips being such n important part of their culture

Edited by colonyofcells

I just prefer DC put all their properties on the main earth and the same time to make all characters easier to use rather than go back to the old mistake of investing in earth 2. It is a lot simpler to continue with Helena Bertinelli without the need for more complicated multiverse explanations. All the dc properties on the main earth is the simpler solution as seen in Helena Bertinelli being used on the Arrow tv show. In Batman, we now also have a main earth Owlman who is much easier to use than the old multiverse Owlman from earth 3 or from the anti matter universe. I don't agree with putting the New Gods in a different dimension. Instead of using time travel to put Legion Lost in the 21st century, I believe it would've been simpler to just reboot the whole Legion and United Planets into the 21st century similar to how Marvel now has a 21st century Guardians of the Galaxy and Imperial Guard.

Posted by Shutdown

@arnoldoaad: I think what I meant by that "potential villain" remark may have been directed to the male victim of the Amazons and/or their abandoaned male offspring.

Posted by jacksonvillewriter

The idea that Diana doesn't know where babies come from is pretty problematic for me. Other then that, Azzarello's Wonder Woman continues to be one of my favorite books month to month.

Posted by colonyofcells

Instead of giving a nod to the old clay origin, it would've simpler for Wonder Woman's mother to lie by saying the father was some dumb sailor or maybe it was Popeye.

Posted by SUNMAN

@arnoldoaad said:

@SUNMAN said:

agree with some of these but not others

I would expect that, but which ones?

  • I agree with everything you've said about Jason Todd.
  • I'm okay with the WW Amazon retcon, but I understand why people would be upset. A lot of the premis for the new book seems that things are a little darker and grittier. Before the WW mythology was almost like a fairy tail and Azz has flipped it all on its head, the book is few steps away from being a horror title imo. Overall I've enjoyed the WW title and I don't think this totally vilifies the Amazons, but harkens back to them being a more war like society. Every group of people's got their dirty laundry and dark histories this humanizes the Amazons a little more to me. Before they were this perfect almost utopian society, which wasn't a bad thing by any means, but its how I generally perceived them prior to Amazons Attacks To me it was just a really interesting twist that no one saw coming. Again I understand why readers might be offended but I was okay with it.
  • Justice League International was poor, but I didn't expect them to just recreate JL:GL like the Teen Titans DC struck gold a while back and can't seem to recreate it if they wanted to. So the reboot didn't give me any allusions it would get rebooted and if they did how would they take it in a new direction.
  • I'm not reading Green Arrow or Deathstroke anymore so was unaware of those plot points.
  • Huntress and Powergirl are just shells of their former selves so I guess I agree with you on Huntress
  • Barbara Gordon has been a huge disappointment in the New 52 on all fronts. People always said Barbara was forever linked to The Killing Joke as Oracle and it hung over the character stiffing her growth, but after seeing what DC's done with her in the new 52 it is just not true. If anything I feel like now we can't get out from under the Killing Joke, and frankly due to all these retcons the impact of the original story
  • I never found Catwomans origins to be that great. The retcon seems unnecessary but its not a big change in quality. The Catwoman origin was the only half way decent thing in the movie. I thought it was an interesting spin on the character. You can make her a prostitute again either way I wouldn't mind, neither origin is amazing. The Falcone secret daughter origin is okay but it kind of reminds me of Huntress and the plots of a few gangster movies I've seen so I was always indifferent on that.
  • New 52 Tim Drake is just weak. I was never a big fan of Tim's but ow I see I took his character for granted. His orignal character was so much better than this new Tim. DC's really done a number on the Batline in general. Outside of Batman, Batwing and Birds of Prey the other titles are really underwhelming. Nightwing back with the Circus and has random love interests like he always has. The arts good the writing is nothing special. Batgirl is just bad, I can elaborate if you want but the title is just bad. I find RHATO boring but the arts good don't really ccare about teh characters. Teen Titans is terrible
Posted by arnoldoaad

@colonyofcells said:

I just prefer DC put all their properties on the main earth and the same time to make all characters easier to use rather than go back to the old mistake of investing in earth 2. It is a lot simpler to continue with Helena Bertinelli without the need for more complicated multiverse explanations. All the dc properties on the main earth is the simpler solution as seen in Helena Bertinelli being used on the Arrow tv show. In Batman, we now also have a main earth Owlman who is much easier to use than the old multiverse Owlman from earth 3 or from the anti matter universe. I don't agree with putting the New Gods in a different dimension.

I think there are pros and cons to the idea of the multiverse but I mostly agree with you, all the important pieces should be on one main earth, I dont dislike the book or concept of Earth 2 but I would still prefer the JSA to be on Earth 0 and regarding Helena, why cant we have both? one on E0 and one on E2, the death of Bertinelli is just not going to make anyone like HW any better, hell the same applies for Powergirl, I always thought that the perfect solution for her is being Kara's older sister, it brings a way more interesting interaction than the current apathetic version who just cracks sexpuns

@Shutdown said:

@arnoldoaad: I think what I meant by that "potential villain" remark may have been directed to the male victim of the Amazons and/or their abandoaned male offspring.

Ohhh, didnt even cross my mind, i thought that you were talking about the amazons, I dont think they would be villains on any way after the way they were introduced they didnt seem to care about the amazons and their potential deadbeat mothers

@jacksonvillewriter said:

The idea that Diana doesn't know where babies come from is pretty problematic for me. Other then that, Azzarello's Wonder Woman continues to be one of my favorite books month to month.

Yeah, those 2 things are pretty much the biggest flaws of Azzarello's WW though the book is still pretty good

@SupBatz said:

Agreed on nearly all accounts. Particularly Helena Bertinelli being dead. That one cuts me deep.

While we're on the subject of changes to The Killing Joke, I hate that they're trying to give Joker a definitive origin. TKJ painted Joker's origin as completely ambiguous and arbitrary - probably the best way to approach his origin. But it's pretty much guarenteed that he was thrown into the vat of chemicals now (Suicide Squad 6-7, and alluded to in Batman 13). And it looks like Snyder is aiming towards showing Joker pre-transformation as some sort of mobster who already is showing Joker-like traits (Batman 0). TKJ is just not something you want to mess with when you're a Batman writer.

Snyder has said that Killing Joke is one of his favorite Batman books and after seeing some of the things that he did with older stories in batman i think he will be very careful dealing with redhood

infact there are some theories going around that the redhood in chp 0 is actually the riddler and the whole idea that the redhood was a different person in every single hit is still in place

but is just a theory, Joker is a character that people need to be very careful with, some of the things that i have read on DotF like on Catwoman had been atrocious with the character

Posted by TheCrowbar

@arnoldoaad said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: Not sure what you mean please explain?

you said that you like the change on the amazons cause it makes them a great potential villains

well that has already been done before with very poor results

and even thought there are possibilities coming from this, it still makes no sense that Diana had no idea about the rape trips being such n important part of their culture

No I didn't. I didn't mention who would be a villian in that scenario just that it could produce a great one.

I was more thinking a male child coming back and attack the island in revenge.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@colonyofcells said:

Instead of giving a nod to the old clay origin, it would've simpler for Wonder Woman's mother to lie by saying the father was some dumb sailor or maybe it was Popeye.

I think it all comes down to the plot hole of the amazons, How the Hell Diana had no idea that the rape trips were going on, there were no young amazons with her? did she thought that they were also made of clay, if such a big problem cause she knew about this then she obviously would knew about birds and bees and will let her to think that she has a father, and the revelation would be "My father is Zeus" rather than "I was not made of clay!!!" which makes her look like an idiot

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@SUNMAN said:

agree with some of these but not others

I would expect that, but which ones?

  • I agree with everything you've said about Jason Todd.
  • I'm okay with the WW Amazon retcon, but I understand why people would be upset. A lot of the premis for the new book seems that things are a little darker and grittier. Before the WW mythology was almost like a fairy tail and Azz has flipped it all on its head, the book is few steps away from being a horror title imo. Overall I've enjoyed the WW title and I don't think this totally vilifies the Amazons, but harkens back to them being a more war like society. Every group of people's got their dirty laundry and dark histories this humanizes the Amazons a little more to me. Before they were this perfect almost utopian society, which wasn't a bad thing by any means, but its how I generally perceived them prior to Amazons Attacks To me it was just a really interesting twist that no one saw coming. Again I understand why readers might be offended but I was okay with it.

ok, Iike I said, I do like the book, but how come this doesnt vilify the amazons?

the whole point of them being a secluded society is cause they see the world of men as "evil" and want to make a better society, this retcon just destroys that entire premise and makes them savages, even in some other stories that have revealed dark secrets of their society and hippolyta and the gods and etc but its never been something like this and even before the revelation Azzarello was trying to vilify them by acting as bullies to Diana by calling her names

But like i said the gigantic problem is not that is this dark grim change, is that Diana had absolutely no idea about it, it is not only a huge plothole but I feel like it completely isolates her from the Amazon tribe

  • Justice League International was poor, but I didn't expect them to just recreate JL:GL like the Teen Titans DC struck gold a while back and can't seem to recreate it if they wanted to. So the reboot didn't give me any allusions it would get rebooted and if they did how would they take it in a new direction.

I expected a follow up from JL:GL, I mean, everything was there, that just had all the pieces together and it just burn to the ground, and the sad part is that

  • I'm not reading Green Arrow or Deathstroke anymore so was unaware of those plot points.
  • Huntress and Powergirl are just shells of their former selves so I guess I agree with you on Huntress

GA and Deathstroke is just like I said, GA has a very poor origin and Lobo is just a generic alien

and yeah Huntress and Pg are just gone for good

  • Barbara Gordon has been a huge disappointment in the New 52 on all fronts. People always said Barbara was forever linked to The Killing Joke as Oracle and it hung over the character stiffing her growth, but after seeing what DC's done with her in the new 52 it is just not true. If anything I feel like now we can't get out from under the Killing Joke, and frankly due to all these retcons the impact of the original story

Exactly my point of view

  • I never found Catwomans origins to be that great. The retcon seems unnecessary but its not a big change in quality. The Catwoman origin was the only half way decent thing in the movie. I thought it was an interesting spin on the character. You can make her a prostitute again either way I wouldn't mind, neither origin is amazing. The Falcone secret daughter origin is okay but it kind of reminds me of Huntress and the plots of a few gangster movies I've seen so I was always indifferent on that.

I think some are better than others but overall none of the origins are bad they are just different but this one is definitely bad

Catwoman #0 is just an abysmal comic, not only the origin fails to work as an origin but the comic itself was very hard to read, the whole idea of her being toss out of a building and then BUM you are catwoman, it makes no sense, he keep seeing her as a terrible thief in the story and after the accident suddenly she is an expert martial artist and thief

New 52 Tim Drake is just weak. I was never a big fan of Tim's but ow I see I took his character for granted. His orignal character was so much better than this new Tim. DC's really done a number on the Batline in general.

I agree, but I dont think that the character is lost that he cant be like before, and by like before i mean like in YJ era, it just needs a coupld of tweeks here and there

Outside of Batman, Batwing and Birds of Prey the other titles are really underwhelming. Nightwing back with the Circus and has random love interests like he always has. The arts good the writing is nothing special. Batgirl is just bad, I can elaborate if you want but the title is just bad. I find RHATO boring but the arts good don't really ccare about teh characters. Teen Titans is terrible

dont worry about that, i will make another blog about that soon enough

about the rest I think Batman, Nightwing and Batwing are great, BoP was ok but it went in decline after the first arc, I talk about that in another blog, the last issue was just terribel

RHATO is flawed but i dont find it boring

TT i think it has a lot of potential but i also feel that its being just cripple by editorial mandates, there was an issue, i think it was 11 that ends in one place, and then the next issue starts in a completely different location, no explanation about it, Eddy Berganza is just doing a terrible job on this book but Lodbell is actually ok

Posted by turoksonofstone

lol only 10?????????????????

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: Not sure what you mean please explain?

you said that you like the change on the amazons cause it makes them a great potential villains

well that has already been done before with very poor results

and even thought there are possibilities coming from this, it still makes no sense that Diana had no idea about the rape trips being such n important part of their culture

No I didn't. I didn't mention who would be a villian in that scenario just that it could produce a great one.

I was more thinking a male child coming back and attack the island in revenge.

I was talking about the Amazons it was pretty easy to assume you were talking about that

@turoksonofstone said:

lol only 10?????????????????

is the top ten not all of them, It would take me forever to do that

Posted by SUNMAN

@arnoldoaad said:

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@SUNMAN said:

agree with some of these but not others

I would expect that, but which ones?

  • I agree with everything you've said about Jason Todd.
  • I'm okay with the WW Amazon retcon, but I understand why people would be upset. A lot of the premis for the new book seems that things are a little darker and grittier. Before the WW mythology was almost like a fairy tail and Azz has flipped it all on its head, the book is few steps away from being a horror title imo. Overall I've enjoyed the WW title and I don't think this totally vilifies the Amazons, but harkens back to them being a more war like society. Every group of people's got their dirty laundry and dark histories this humanizes the Amazons a little more to me. Before they were this perfect almost utopian society, which wasn't a bad thing by any means, but its how I generally perceived them prior to Amazons Attacks To me it was just a really interesting twist that no one saw coming. Again I understand why readers might be offended but I was okay with it.

ok, Iike I said, I do like the book, but how come this doesnt vilify the amazons?

the whole point of them being a secluded society is cause they see the world of men as "evil" and want to make a better society, this retcon just destroys that entire premise and makes them savages, even in some other stories that have revealed dark secrets of their society and hippolyta and the gods and etc but its never been something like this and even before the revelation Azzarello was trying to vilify them by acting as bullies to Diana by calling her names

But like i said the gigantic problem is not that is this dark grim change, is that Diana had absolutely no idea about it, it is not only a huge plothole but I feel like it completely isolates her from the Amazon tribe

  • Justice League International was poor, but I didn't expect them to just recreate JL:GL like the Teen Titans DC struck gold a while back and can't seem to recreate it if they wanted to. So the reboot didn't give me any allusions it would get rebooted and if they did how would they take it in a new direction.

I expected a follow up from JL:GL, I mean, everything was there, that just had all the pieces together and it just burn to the ground, and the sad part is that

  • I'm not reading Green Arrow or Deathstroke anymore so was unaware of those plot points.
  • Huntress and Powergirl are just shells of their former selves so I guess I agree with you on Huntress

GA and Deathstroke is just like I said, GA has a very poor origin and Lobo is just a generic alien

and yeah Huntress and Pg are just gone for good

  • Barbara Gordon has been a huge disappointment in the New 52 on all fronts. People always said Barbara was forever linked to The Killing Joke as Oracle and it hung over the character stiffing her growth, but after seeing what DC's done with her in the new 52 it is just not true. If anything I feel like now we can't get out from under the Killing Joke, and frankly due to all these retcons the impact of the original story

Exactly my point of view

  • I never found Catwomans origins to be that great. The retcon seems unnecessary but its not a big change in quality. The Catwoman origin was the only half way decent thing in the movie. I thought it was an interesting spin on the character. You can make her a prostitute again either way I wouldn't mind, neither origin is amazing. The Falcone secret daughter origin is okay but it kind of reminds me of Huntress and the plots of a few gangster movies I've seen so I was always indifferent on that.

I think some are better than others but overall none of the origins are bad they are just different but this one is definitely bad

Catwoman #0 is just an abysmal comic, not only the origin fails to work as an origin but the comic itself was very hard to read, the whole idea of her being toss out of a building and then BUM you are catwoman, it makes no sense, he keep seeing her as a terrible thief in the story and after the accident suddenly she is an expert martial artist and thief

New 52 Tim Drake is just weak. I was never a big fan of Tim's but ow I see I took his character for granted. His orignal character was so much better than this new Tim. DC's really done a number on the Batline in general.

I agree, but I dont think that the character is lost that he cant be like before, and by like before i mean like in YJ era, it just needs a coupld of tweeks here and there

Outside of Batman, Batwing and Birds of Prey the other titles are really underwhelming. Nightwing back with the Circus and has random love interests like he always has. The arts good the writing is nothing special. Batgirl is just bad, I can elaborate if you want but the title is just bad. I find RHATO boring but the arts good don't really ccare about teh characters. Teen Titans is terrible

dont worry about that, i will make another blog about that soon enough

about the rest I think Batman, Nightwing and Batwing are great, BoP was ok but it went in decline after the first arc, I talk about that in another blog, the last issue was just terribel

RHATO is flawed but i dont find it boring

TT i think it has a lot of potential but i also feel that its being just cripple by editorial mandates, there was an issue, i think it was 11 that ends in one place, and then the next issue starts in a completely different location, no explanation about it, Eddy Berganza is just doing a terrible job on this book but Lodbell is actually ok

  • Well WW has been pretty oblivious to a lot of things in her book. I mean she didn't know Zeus was her dad till she was at least 25, was unaware of the Amazons practices. For a character that generally seems very competent and likes to investigate things even when people say not to, she is a little slow on the uptake. I don't think its improbably for WW not to know the bigger question is why was it kept a secret. As you've alluded to it feels like she isn't really an Amazon or something. I mean the act does vilify the Amazons to an extent, but I don't see the problem with it. Also I don't think it was rape the images we were shown appeared to be consensual.
  • Well it was a reboot and only Batman and Green Lantern were keeping their continuity to keep DC's big writers happy. Even though they managed to botch the Batman continuity a lot.
  • I don't think Tim will be salvaged anytime soon. DC doesn't seem to recognize the problem or want to address it.
  • you think Nightwing is great? I was optimistic about it and think its okay, but I was honestly expecting better. Its been par for the course to me. I don't give it the same leeway I gave Batwing or Birds of Prey. Nightwing is a long time staple and DC's shown us it can write great Dick Grayson stories over the years.
  • Lobdell doesn't really impress me. What do you find flawed about RHATO? The book kind of seems random to me and I can't get into it or the characters. It has nice art but aside from that I can't say anything else too complimentary
Posted by SUNMAN

@arnoldoaad said:

@turoksonofstone said:

lol only 10?????????????????

is the top ten not all of them, It would take me forever to do that

surprised you left out Static, Teen Titans and Mr. Terrific.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

  • Well WW has been pretty oblivious to a lot of things in her book. I mean she didn't know Zeus was her dad till she was at least 25, was unaware of the Amazons practices. For a character that generally seems very competent and likes to investigate things even when people say not to, she is a little slow on the uptake. I don't think its improbably for WW not to know the bigger question is why was it kept a secret. As you've alluded to it feels like she isn't really an Amazon or something. I mean the act does vilify the Amazons to an extent, but I don't see the problem with it. Also I don't think it was rape the images we were shown appeared to be consensual.
  • Well it was a reboot and only Batman and Green Lantern were keeping their continuity to keep DC's big writers happy. Even though they managed to botch the Batman continuity a lot.
  • I don't think Tim will be salvaged anytime soon. DC doesn't seem to recognize the problem or want to address it.
  • you think Nightwing is great? I was optimistic about it and think its okay, but I was honestly expecting better. Its been par for the course to me. I don't give it the same leeway I gave Batwing or Birds of Prey. Nightwing is a long time staple and DC's shown us it can write great Dick Grayson stories over the years.
  • Lobdell doesn't really impress me. What do you find flawed about RHATO? The book kind of seems random to me and I can't get into it or the characters. It has nice art but aside from that I can't say anything else too complimentary
  • the bigger problem with the separation of the amazons is that it has been done before again and again and at the end of the day the amazons have just became this tribe of characters that every time there is a crisis a bunch of them gets killed, or just turn evil, then good again, so the removal and vilification feels like they com back we will get yet another, and seriously you are going to use that argument of "it looks they concented", no that is rape under this conditions
  • oh, and Green Lantern too, just last chp of GL: New Guardians kind of hinted that Emerald Twilight never happen, so no Hal parallax, no Final Night, no Rebirth and pretty much half of Geoff Johns saga is out and the other half just happen completely different, you just cant notice it cause there are only 4 books and they mostly focus to go forward rather than rely on continuity cause they dont really need much continuity
  • I think there are many problems, not just one but they can be fixed, I think my favorite part of Batman #0 was the back feature which had all the robins seeing the first time the batdignal was on and the part of Tim was Brilliant, he can still be more like that
  • If you expect something like his time as batman you will be disappointed, his demotion was a huge blow to the character, but the book has very good ideas and some of those ideas just hit the mark, some dont but I think is solid enough
  • the same goes for Batman & Robin, it is very entertaining for what it is, there are some mediocree issues but most of them hit the mark for me
  • the book basically has 3 flaws, Jason, Starfire and and Roy, the situations are good for me, but if the characters were better portrayed or different then the book would be fantastic

For example

If the character of Starfire, if instead of her, it was her sister Blackfire, There would be not a single complain about that character, cause basically what happen is that we got a character reversal where Star is more dark, and Blackfire is a much nicer sister, just the same stories with a few changes in the continuity and those characters reversed and it would work cause thats probably the biggest complain of the book how people just scream to the sky "omg they ruined Starfire", it was easily solvable

I already pointed out the problems with Jason but he is actually the better character of that book and the best moments of the book, are his moments

and finally Roy, he is just there, he has virtually no presence in the book but only to make jokes and the connections with Green Arrow makes the book really week, his origin in issue 3-4(i think) was just pure crap

but I agree with you the book has this random feeling cause the plot just jumps too much, but i think thats the strenght of the book cause if you get boring with one plot, hey now they are in space so is very creative in that regard

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@turoksonofstone said:

lol only 10?????????????????

is the top ten not all of them, It would take me forever to do that

surprised you left out Static, Teen Titans and Mr. Terrific.

you know, I completely forgot about Static, but i what would really count as retcon for that, it was more a progressive story that was made out of order and made absolutely no sense

for me a retcon is that they changed something and this was more like, he was still the smae but in a new setting, either way I already talked about the multiple failures of Static in another blog

Mr Terrific the worst retcon that I can think of him in the book is that DC made him a black guy

...

XD

no, seriously the worst part Retcon of mr T is that suddenly villain killed his wife in the stupiest possible way, I guess that would be #11

and you probably not going to like what i think of TT

Posted by SUNMAN

@arnoldoaad said:

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

  • Well WW has been pretty oblivious to a lot of things in her book. I mean she didn't know Zeus was her dad till she was at least 25, was unaware of the Amazons practices. For a character that generally seems very competent and likes to investigate things even when people say not to, she is a little slow on the uptake. I don't think its improbably for WW not to know the bigger question is why was it kept a secret. As you've alluded to it feels like she isn't really an Amazon or something. I mean the act does vilify the Amazons to an extent, but I don't see the problem with it. Also I don't think it was rape the images we were shown appeared to be consensual.
  • Well it was a reboot and only Batman and Green Lantern were keeping their continuity to keep DC's big writers happy. Even though they managed to botch the Batman continuity a lot.
  • I don't think Tim will be salvaged anytime soon. DC doesn't seem to recognize the problem or want to address it.
  • you think Nightwing is great? I was optimistic about it and think its okay, but I was honestly expecting better. Its been par for the course to me. I don't give it the same leeway I gave Batwing or Birds of Prey. Nightwing is a long time staple and DC's shown us it can write great Dick Grayson stories over the years.
  • Lobdell doesn't really impress me. What do you find flawed about RHATO? The book kind of seems random to me and I can't get into it or the characters. It has nice art but aside from that I can't say anything else too complimentary
  • the bigger problem with the separation of the amazons is that it has been done before again and again and at the end of the day the amazons have just became this tribe of characters that every time there is a crisis a bunch of them gets killed, or just turn evil, then good again, so the removal and vilification feels like they com back we will get yet another, and seriously you are going to use that argument of "it looks they concented", no that is rape under this conditions
  • oh, and Green Lantern too, just last chp of GL: New Guardians kind of hinted that Emerald Twilight never happen, so no Hal parallax, no Final Night, no Rebirth and pretty much half of Geoff Johns saga is out and the other half just happen completely different, you just cant notice it cause there are only 4 books and they mostly focus to go forward rather than rely on continuity cause they dont really need much continuity
  • I think there are many problems, not just one but they can be fixed, I think my favorite part of Batman #0 was the back feature which had all the robins seeing the first time the batdignal was on and the part of Tim was Brilliant, he can still be more like that
  • If you expect something like his time as batman you will be disappointed, his demotion was a huge blow to the character, but the book has very good ideas and some of those ideas just hit the mark, some dont but I think is solid enough
  • the same goes for Batman & Robin, it is very entertaining for what it is, there are some mediocree issues but most of them hit the mark for me
  • the book basically has 3 flaws, Jason, Starfire and and Roy, the situations are good for me, but if the characters were better portrayed or different then the book would be fantastic

For example

If the character of Starfire, if instead of her, it was her sister Blackfire, There would be not a single complain about that character, cause basically what happen is that we got a character reversal where Star is more dark, and Blackfire is a much nicer sister, just the same stories with a few changes in the continuity and those characters reversed and it would work cause thats probably the biggest complain of the book how people just scream to the sky "omg they ruined Starfire", it was easily solvable

I already pointed out the problems with Jason but he is actually the better character of that book and the best moments of the book, are his moments

and finally Roy, he is just there, he has virtually no presence in the book but only to make jokes and the connections with Green Arrow makes the book really week, his origin in issue 3-4(i think) was just pure crap

but I agree with you the book has this random feeling cause the plot just jumps too much, but i think thats the strenght of the book cause if you get boring with one plot, hey now they are in space so is very creative in that regard

  • explain how it is undeniably rape. I can see an argument made for it being rape, but in the context and imagery it is presented to us I don't think u can definitively make that conclusion
  • I kind of dropped the Green Lantern line. It wasn't bad but the whole Corps and the Guardians is got out of hand for me. I may pick up the stories tpb but will see
  • yeah Tim can be salvaged, but again I don't think he will anytime soon
  • I don't expect him to be Batman, I just expect him to be written as the man which he had been as Nightwing at times. Doesn't mean he can't struggle. More importantly I want great villains and truly compelling stories. Snyder and Morrison did an amazing job with Dick. Dick's had good Nightwing writers in the past but they always have some hangup with the character. Dixon wrote good Nightwing stories despite McDaniel on art, but none of his villains were memorable. I see Higgins falling into the same problem with villains. Devin Grayson looked like she was on track to pen the greatest Nightwing run ever than it quickly became the worst character destruction I've read in mainstream comics. Snyder set Dick up in a really great place and I wanted to see that carry over in Nightwing. Going back to his Nightwing persona didn't have to be a demotion. The transition was handled pretty poorly actually in that there wasn't a transition he was just back to Nightwing again in issue #1. I was open to the title in the beginning, but the circus hasn't really gone anywhere significant. The new characters are hollow aside from Tonya (only because Snyder already established her). The Dick and Barbara relationship is a little confusing as to where it stands, this isn't a big problem for me actually they don't have to end up together but some of their interactions seem forced and/or inconsistent. Overall it just seems like a step down from Snyder, Morrison and Tomasi in my book. It just feels like he's back to the Nightwing of several years ago, minus the Titans history........Ok maybe not as bad as it was when they had Cass as the best martial artist and Tim as the best detective and Nightwing would get his butt kicked by every new villain flavor of the week. Nightwing's certainly been written worse than this, but he's also been written a lot better. If this title wasn't regularly piggy backing off the main Batman title I'd have no clue what direction it was going in. Dick's family connection to the Talons didn't really add much of anything imo. The Joker arc looks like it will add some drama. Not sure where it will ultimately go cause clearly Bruce will be the one to take the Joker down. So all we are left with is Dick owning the circus, which I'm indifferent on but doesn't really seem to be taking him anywhere new, and Tonya Zucco. I'm not crazy about his romance with Tonya at all, but its at least taking him in an interesting direction. The filler arcs have been surprisingly enjoyable. I liked the shape-shifting chameleon guy and the Lady Shiva arc was alright. Wouldn't mind them turning her into a Nightwing villain
  • Yeah I'll give you Batman and Robins okay. I don't really think anyone writes a great Damian besides Morrison and Bryan Q Miller so that takes me out of it.
  • I don't know when I read RHATO I feel like I'm reading a random manga or something

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@turoksonofstone said:

lol only 10?????????????????

is the top ten not all of them, It would take me forever to do that

surprised you left out Static, Teen Titans and Mr. Terrific.

you know, I completely forgot about Static, but i what would really count as retcon for that, it was more a progressive story that was made out of order and made absolutely no sense

for me a retcon is that they changed something and this was more like, he was still the smae but in a new setting, either way I already talked about the multiple failures of Static in another blog

Mr Terrific the worst retcon that I can think of him in the book is that DC made him a black guy

...

XD

no, seriously the worst part Retcon of mr T is that suddenly villain killed his wife in the stupiest possible way, I guess that would be #11

and you probably not going to like what i think of TT

  • Going by how your evaluating the other characters Static was most certainly a retcon. His mother is suddenly alive. He's Hardware's apprentice/partner? Random sister clones (maybe that wasn't a retcon, but it might as well have been since it didn't make sense, and they didn't bother to explain it till 2 or 3 issues before the book was cancelled.) Moving him to New York could have been cool, but DC totally squandered it. The new costume like several of the new costumes was a big step down form his last outfit. So his family dynamic was different, new city, new costume, retconned relationships. The best thing to come out of Static in the DCnU was his team up with Hawkman against Gentleman Ghost. DC made similar mistakes with Blue Beetle getting rid of everything likable from the past incarnation. Only difference was Blue Beetle had a decent art team
Posted by arnoldoaad

@SUNMAN said:

@arnoldoaad said:

  • explain how it is undeniably rape. I can see an argument made for it being rape, but in the context and imagery it is presented to us I don't think u can definitively make that conclusion
  • I kind of dropped the Green Lantern line. It wasn't bad but the whole Corps and the Guardians is got out of hand for me. I may pick up the stories tpb but will see
  • yeah Tim can be salvaged, but again I don't think he will anytime soon
  • I don't expect him to be Batman, I just expect him to be written as the man which he had been as Nightwing at times. Doesn't mean he can't struggle. More importantly I want great villains and truly compelling stories. Snyder and Morrison did an amazing job with Dick. Dick's had good Nightwing writers in the past but they always have some hangup with the character. Dixon wrote good Nightwing stories despite McDaniel on art, but none of his villains were memorable. I see Higgins falling into the same problem with villains. Devin Grayson looked like she was on track to pen the greatest Nightwing run ever than it quickly became the worst character destruction I've read in mainstream comics. Snyder set Dick up in a really great place and I wanted to see that carry over in Nightwing. Going back to his Nightwing persona didn't have to be a demotion. The transition was handled pretty poorly actually in that there wasn't a transition he was just back to Nightwing again in issue #1. I was open to the title in the beginning, but the circus hasn't really gone anywhere significant. The new characters are hollow aside from Tonya (only because Snyder already established her). The Dick and Barbara relationship is a little confusing as to where it stands, this isn't a big problem for me actually they don't have to end up together but some of their interactions seem forced and/or inconsistent. Overall it just seems like a step down from Snyder, Morrison and Tomasi in my book. It just feels like he's back to the Nightwing of several years ago, minus the Titans history........Ok maybe not as bad as it was when they had Cass as the best martial artist and Tim as the best detective and Nightwing would get his butt kicked by every new villain flavor of the week. Nightwing's certainly been written worse than this, but he's also been written a lot better. If this title wasn't regularly piggy backing off the main Batman title I'd have no clue what direction it was going in. Dick's family connection to the Talons didn't really add much of anything imo. The Joker arc looks like it will add some drama. Not sure where it will ultimately go cause clearly Bruce will be the one to take the Joker down. So all we are left with is Dick owning the circus, which I'm indifferent on but doesn't really seem to be taking him anywhere new, and Tonya Zucco. I'm not crazy about his romance with Tonya at all, but its at least taking him in an interesting direction. The filler arcs have been surprisingly enjoyable. I liked the shape-shifting chameleon guy and the Lady Shiva arc was alright. Wouldn't mind them turning her into a Nightwing villain
  • Yeah I'll give you Batman and Robins okay. I don't really think anyone writes a great Damian besides Morrison and Bryan Q Miller so that takes me out of it.
  • I don't know when I read RHATO I feel like I'm reading a random manga or something
  • Going by how your evaluating the other characters Static was most certainly a retcon. His mother is suddenly alive. He's Hardware's apprentice/partner? Random sister clones (maybe that wasn't a retcon, but it might as well have been since it didn't make sense, and they didn't bother to explain it till 2 or 3 issues before the book was cancelled.) Moving him to New York could have been cool, but DC totally squandered it. The new costume like several of the new costumes was a big step down form his last outfit. So his family dynamic was different, new city, new costume, retconned relationships. The best thing to come out of Static in the DCnU was his team up with Hawkman against Gentleman Ghost. DC made similar mistakes with Blue Beetle getting rid of everything likable from the past incarnation. Only difference was Blue Beetle had a decent art team
  • from what we have been shown, you can make the argument, but it was establish that they make this trip every 3 decades, at some point they should have encounter someone who is married and faithfull and had to force him, but the biggest evidence is that if those men knew that they would die or hell that thy plan them to be fathers, they wouldnt accept, they cannot concent to something like this
  • GLC is hit and miss, it had a lot of great concepts, I really loved the enemies and the armor they used in the first arc, but i see more like a war comic in space rather than a space opera comic like it was before, and GLNC has had ups and downs but i feel that is the odd kid of the place, you can tell that there are massive editorial changes on this book all the time.
  • Im patient, it just doesnt bother me how he is now and i know he will be better in the future
  • No, I think you said it all in that bolded part, just look at that picture i put of Batman #1 with Bruce, Dick, Tim and Damian, just compare the highs between Bruce and Dick, he looks like a teen again, but what i find enjoyable about the comic is the connection with batman and not the stories themselves though i have liked some of the villains many a little more than you did, and about lady shiva, i also liked some parts of that arc, others not so much but my main problem is that Shiva now has the ugliest costume design from the new 52, for me nightwing sometimes hits 9 and sometimes hits 6, thats all
  • Dont forget Nicieza, for me writes the most balanced Damian of all, the perfect balance between train assassin and a real 10 year old kid without being a character from Kickass, I want him to write a Damian solo book before any other writer
  • well I like manga so there is that
  • ok, I have read very little of the comic but i do know his mom is alive in the comic, and he had certain connections with Hardware, but either way the failure of Static Shock cannot be resume by a single retcon, It was a massive trainwreck, on one side he kept his continuity from the milestone series, which was a massive mistake cause it makes the series hard to jump in for new readers, and on the other side they put him in a completely different setting, with none of his friends and supporting cast, a new suit that is ugly as shit and new powers that werent explained at all, and new villains that no one gave 2 craps about, so old readers couldnt jump into this, This is a brilliant accomplishment to just make a formula that is meant to alienate new and old readers at the same time, and th clone shannons was the cherry on top cause is something that Happen COMPLETELY OFFPANEL, a no one knew where that came from, not new readers nor old readers, Its a massive editorial failure.
Posted by ZEELLO

I dont know much about DC but this was an interesting read. I will say one thing though, I kind of want to read that WW comic. :p

Posted by arnoldoaad

@ZEELLO said:

I dont know much about DC but this was an interesting read. I will say one thing though, I kind of want to read that WW comic. :p

Glad you liked it, I highly recommend the WW comic

Edited by sethysquare

@arnoldoaad: usual arnoldaad to his mischief.

I think many of these points are on a very emotional basis.

Death of helena bartinelli, red robin retcon, batman and jason's first meeting and jason's monks origin and etc

many of those are on a purely emotional basis and not because it removes a certain aspect from the character or limits creativity. Its the usual, I don't like it cos its not what it was.

For instance, Ducra and Talia being added to Jason's history would add lots of depth to the character. It also links essence to jason toddd indefinitely and create a solid supporting character.

Yes Jason has always been a street level character, but I don't see why it is so bad to add that a few monks have trained him after his death.

RHATO isn't a street level book but a whimsical, fantasy, sci-fi book with horror elements. The twists and turns always surprises us because of how unpredictable it was.

Besides, when retcons like these are added it creates depth for the character and enables the writer to utilise it as a plot point for further stories.

I dont even wanna go into the rest because its really very subjective and those are.

I can understand if you're saying Lobo's retcon doesn't make sense because it no longer makes him the last of his planet and that it was poorly executed.

I can understand if you said Catwoman's retcon was handled very poorly and it wasn't an original idea.

But most of them are just non issue that stems from an emotional need for things to be like how it is.

I don't see how a retcon can be good or bad because for every good retcon, it could be followed up with bad writing. At the end of the day, its not the retcon, but the writing. one more day could be said to be a good retcon because it allowed spiderman to return to an era where he could develop better relationship and build up on a stronger supporting cast in a way that could be prevented if he was married. But the process of getting the devil to remove the marriage is just silly. So would this be a good retcon or a bad retcon?

So I just find this whole blog very very very very very strange.

Top 10 Worst storyline and Top 10 best storyline, I can accept.

Posted by DocX
Helena Bertinelli is Dead
No need for details, this one is a real tragedy, I think that World's Finest is a pretty bad comic but I believe that the idea of Helena Wayne can have a certain potential for some very interesting stories, but Bertinelli was that version of the character that everybody knew, loved and respected, Helena Berinelli is the Iconic Huntress, by saying that she is effectively gone you are just saying that this new persona of Helena Wayne has nothing to do with her, so you are losing every single fan of Bertinelli with this move.

Once upon a time back in the day of Crisis on Infinite Earths fallout I remember feeling equally disappointed Bertinelli was replacing Helena Wayne in the first place, to me she's always been the replacement Huntress not the "real" one. Still I back your point why not have both

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sethysquare said:

@arnoldoaad: usual arnoldaad to his mischief.

I think many of these points are on a very emotional basis.

Death of helena bartinelli, red robin retcon, batman and jason's first meeting and jason's monks origin and etc

many of those are on a purely emotional basis and not because it removes a certain aspect from the character or limits creativity. Its the usual, I don't like it cos its not what it was.

some of them might not limit or remove an aspect of the character but add absolutely nothing to the table, is change for change sake without thinking

For instance, Ducra and Talia being added to Jason's history would add lots of depth to the character. It also links essence to jason toddd indefinitely and create a solid supporting character.

Yes Jason has always been a street level character, but I don't see why it is so bad to add that a few monks have trained him after his death.

RHATO isn't a street level book but a whimsical, fantasy, sci-fi book with horror elements. The twists and turns always surprises us because of how unpredictable it was.

that would be a valid point if She was actually a supporting cast but she is not, and the whole monk thing is barely mention anyways, in fact it would be better if Roy had been trained by the monks instead

Besides, when retcons like these are added it creates depth for the character and enables the writer to utilise it as a plot point for further stories.

a good retcon is meant to open new ways for writing, most of those cases remove them, specially the top 3, they arent opening anything new, just closing paths, they are diminishing

Posted by Ironhawk22

I'm actually fine with a couple of these. To be honest not a big Jason Todd fan so that didn't affect me. That and the character came back from the dead so that kind of defeats the point of being realistic. Jason's origin sounds really stupid though. However nothing can out-stupid Tim's new origin. I don't even care about he's NEVER BEEN ROBIN, it's the fact he didn't figure out Bruce's identity among other reasons I've mentioned countless times. The Helena thing was stupid as well. However the whole JLI: GL thing was a good idea. While it didn't end up working out, I found that whole storyline dragged on for to damn long to the point I didn't even care. That stupid last issue were Max wins was one of the cheapest endings ever to a comic series. I'd just wasted how long reading the series only for no pay off at the end. I know I'm in the minority, but I found Generation Lost while pretty well done in script and art, to be one of the most repetitive, long drawn out, and useless events ever. I like Judd Winnick's writing but that was not his shining moment.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Ironhawk22 said:

I'm actually fine with a couple of these. To be honest not a big Jason Todd fan so that didn't affect me. That and the character came back from the dead so that kind of defeats the point of being realistic. Jason's origin sounds really stupid though. However nothing can out-stupid Tim's new origin. I don't even care about he's NEVER BEEN ROBIN, it's the fact he didn't figure out Bruce's identity among other reasons I've mentioned countless times. The Helena thing was stupid as well.

yeah and now Dick grayson discover bruce ID, its kind of a weird exchange that happen there, but the new origin had some good stuff too, like bringing back the parents and remove them from danger at the same time, and just showing Tim's skill with computers

However the whole JLI: GL thing was a good idea. While it didn't end up working out, I found that whole storyline dragged on for to damn long to the point I didn't even care. That stupid last issue were Max wins was one of the cheapest endings ever to a comic series. I'd just wasted how long reading the series only for no pay off at the end. I know I'm in the minority, but I found Generation Lost while pretty well done in script and art, to be one of the most repetitive, long drawn out, and useless events ever. I like Judd Winnick's writing but that was not his shining moment.

Max didnt won at the end, he lost most of his resources and had to reveal his identity again to the world, he just escaped

nevertheless JL:GL wasnt because of the plot, it was good because of the characters and the character development and every single of the guys on it shine at some point

like Blue Beetle shooting Omazo(Omac Prime everyone called Omazo when it was happening) in the head or Captain Atom going into the future, its just a great character driven story and absolutely nothing good came from rebooting that

Posted by Katosepe

Okay. Seriously not trying to be a troll or anything here, but this article was extremely difficult to read because of all the typos and grammatical errors. You have a lot of interesting points but I don't want to have to wade through endless missing commas, randomly capitalized (or not capitalized) words, incoherent sentences, misspellings, etc. to get to them. If you edit this post, it'll be a truly great read.

As for your content, I agree with some of it but not necessarily all of it. Agree wholeheartedly with Jason Todd being trained by monks and all that. I like the new Wonder Woman story with the Amazons though. It mirrors the real Amazonian myths whereas the prior stories about WW Amazons felt censored, like a kid version of David and Goliath. I also agree with Catwoman having a weird origin. I'm sorry but there's no way you can be tossed off a building that tall and have an awning save you. Not by a long shot. This kind of goes along with DC dumbing down female characters in the New 52. They claim they aren't but suddenly Catwoman is some wussy little kid who gets tossed off a building, Batgirl didn't fight through but rather had to be saved, not to mention the endless number of female heroes that they eliminated or turned into sex icons. It's unfortunate and I hope that it's fixed soon.

Anyway, good post. Please edit though.

Posted by RemyLeBeau

A few of the reasons why imo DC's New 52 sucked.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Katosepe said:

Okay. Seriously not trying to be a troll or anything here, but this article was extremely difficult to read because of all the typos and grammatical errors. You have a lot of interesting points but I don't want to have to wade through endless missing commas, randomly capitalized (or not capitalized) words, incoherent sentences, misspellings, etc. to get to them. If you edit this post, it'll be a truly great read.

As for your content, I agree with some of it but not necessarily all of it. Agree wholeheartedly with Jason Todd being trained by monks and all that. I like the new Wonder Woman story with the Amazons though. It mirrors the real Amazonian myths whereas the prior stories about WW Amazons felt censored, like a kid version of David and Goliath. I also agree with Catwoman having a weird origin. I'm sorry but there's no way you can be tossed off a building that tall and have an awning save you. Not by a long shot. This kind of goes along with DC dumbing down female characters in the New 52. They claim they aren't but suddenly Catwoman is some wussy little kid who gets tossed off a building, Batgirl didn't fight through but rather had to be saved, not to mention the endless number of female heroes that they eliminated or turned into sex icons. It's unfortunate and I hope that it's fixed soon.

Anyway, good post. Please edit though.

Ok I edit it and corrected the problems, I hope this makes it much easier to read now

Posted by xtremekidx

man,i thank God everyday that i wasnt reading before Nu52 or else i may have been cursing it too...

i agree with all your points but hope to see a best list soon!

Edited by arnoldoaad

@xtremekidx said:

man,i thank God everyday that i wasnt reading before Nu52 or else i may have been cursing it too...

i agree with all your points but hope to see a best list soon!

yeah, i know, i been lazying around for the season, just playing xcom all day long XD

Posted by colonyofcells

Bad reboots can easily be fixed by more reboots.

Posted by jrock85

@ComicStooge said:

The whole New 52 was a bad idea.

In principle I think it was a good idea. However, the execution has just been horrendous.

Posted by ComicStooge

@jrock85 said:

@ComicStooge said:

The whole New 52 was a bad idea.

In principle I think it was a good idea. However, the execution has just been horrendous.

Fair enough.

Honestly though, most of their beast stuff could've been done without the reboot.

Posted by jrock85

@ComicStooge said:

@jrock85 said:

@ComicStooge said:

The whole New 52 was a bad idea.

In principle I think it was a good idea. However, the execution has just been horrendous.

Fair enough.

Honestly though, most of their beast stuff could've been done without the reboot.

EXACTLY.

Posted by TDK_1997

Definitely the new origin of Tim Drake and Catwoman are extremely bad.But Selina's current state is something that hurts my eyes and because of her new origin I dropped her book.

Posted by daredevil21134

Agreed on everything!Especially Jason Todd * Huntress.

Posted by arnoldoaad

bumpo

Posted by Katosepe

@arnoldoaad: Sorry for the late response. Wow! I'm impressed that you took the time to edit! It does sound a lot better now. Nicely done :).