The Top Ten Best Retcons of The New 52

Continuity Binds

I always imagined DC or Marvel's continuity like this never ending book, just one single book made of single comic that was made into it.

The good part of continuity is that it brings a sense that the story is moving forward and it is a rule for every story teller that the plot must always move forward for every single panel for every single line of dialog, it must always move forward.

But on what direction?

And that is the problem with continuity; it shapes its own path and sometimes limits the options that can be done.

Reboots by essence are a double-edge sword, on one hand it gets rid of every single bad story that a character might had but at the same time it gets rid of all the good parts too, it is effectively ending the story, closes that direction forever and doesn’t allows it to continue any more.

A Reboot just levels the field, whatever it is good or not just depends of 1 thing. Simple mathematics.

If By doing the reboot or retcon the character is gaining or potentially can gain more than what was lost. Then that is good.

If By doing a reboot or retcon you are gaining nothing or making problems along the way for older stories and limits the possibilities for old and new stories more than the ones that are being open by it. Then that is bad.

By rebooting a story you are hindering completely its capacity to move forward, that story will never continue again, and a new one will replace it, a retcon is just a much smaller case, it can remove a restriction, revive a character, delete an impediment that allows it to move forward into another direction.

It is just that simple, its a scale that might tilt on one end or the other.

The following are cases where i think the scale tilted in the right direction, and as a reminder, there will be spoilers

10- Teen Titans Full Reboot

Im pretty sure i will receive a ton of angry pms on this one but let me explain myself

I have talk before about how big of a failure was the Young Justice titles and even the new Teen Titans book has receive nothing but bad and mixed reviews all over the board. but lets make something clear, when people think about Teen Titans no longer being part of continuity they think of New Teen Titans.

They think of Raven, Cyborg, Starfire, nightwing and all that, but you know what, that happen 20 years ago, after the wolfman era, who really remembers anything that happen afterwards, the biggest lost is losing that relationships that they had, not only between the Titas but with people like Wally West who just no longer exist, However we can still recover it, we can still see Raven meeting Cyborg and Starfire and Dick and Beastboy and Terra, it can still be back.

The biggest gain of The Teen Titans reboot is for the Titans of Tim Drake and that gain is based on this:

THE LAST TEEN TITANS SUCKED

100 issues that can pretty much be resumed in "stuff is going to happen, then it doesnt"

the book lack a regular team membership, a regular creative team, a consistent direction and of course good editorial management.

for a moment people couldnt be on the team because other books wanted them or needed something with the team, and as the teen titans

drifted from a mediocre writer to the next one of the few regular things that happen is that titans died and/or some leave the team, or just had really really awful storylines.

  • who can forget that time Miss Martian was possessed by her old-time-evil self into giving sex favors at public menrooms
  • or how the team adopted a dog who then turn out to be evil and killed and crippled 2 innocent guys of the supporting cast
  • The just awful Felicia Henderson's run

It is just a comic that got worse and worse and worse so nothing of worth was lost, there is even a bigger lost on things from Peter David’s Young Justice.

With the reboot it gives it a chance to start new with less constrains and impediments.

The potential to finally be good again is there.

9- New Krypton Gone

I have never seen such a bigger failure to launch a massive expansion to a property than what happen with Superman: New Krypton storyline.

I still remember the interviews, how this would make 2010 the year of superman, that it was going to be this massive event that gives Superman an status similar to Green Lantern and Batman and that War of the Supermen was going to be Superman's Sinestro Corps war which was going to launch it into something even bigger.

The result was obviously nothing even remotely close to that, before New Krypton Superman wasnt doing bad, but it wasnt doing good either, the story was design to be something epic and in return it becomes something close to a disease.

The plot was this, Superman finally saved the real city of Kandor as well as over 100,000 Kryptonians including his own uncle and aunt, Supergirl's parents, as soon as they come out they decide to use their technology to create a new planet, aka New Krypton, right in the same orbit as earth but on the other side, Superman leaves earth to connect with his Kryptonian lineage but of course everything predetermined to end in tragedy.

New Krypton lasted for almost 2 years, and over 90+ comics, some which presented plots that never got a conclusion, the entire story was a huge flop in sales, Action Comics almost approaching cancellation numbers, and fans were pretty much displeased on entire storyline, me included, specially because of the ending..

In the end, New Krypton is destroyed by Earth, the Kryptonians are practically exterminated and/or send to the Phantom Zone and this is one permanently closed, pretty much every single new name character in superman gets the same treatment and around 1000-10000 Kryptonians get save but hide on earth.

the consequences were pretty much that Superman got depressed and start walking for the US and Supergirl got depressed and turn Emo for a while but then she was ok, but everyone else including the writers and editors were just pretending like it never ever happen

But it happen

This is the perfect example of a good retcon, thanks to the reboot, NK never happen, that leaves Kandor to be reused again as well as the phantom zone, we can see Zod and Urza and even Chris Kent again in a near future, because even if you dont like some of the things of the superman's reboot, at least we can be glad that this is out of the way.

8- Diana, Daughter of Zeus and the New Olympians

I have to say first that I Hate how this retcon was executed, but I like what it brings to the table.

Basically The origin of Diana is no longer that she was made out of clay and given life by the power of the gods, instead she was conceived when Zeus banged her mom the old fashion way.

What we lost from this retcon is Originality.

Everyone who knows WW is somehow familiarized with her origin, is iconic, is simple and is original. It’s a symbol of feminism even, of the woman untouched by man and created by female gods, she is a modern Eve.

The new Origin loses that and basically imitates characters of the likes of Hercules, Achilles and other famous demigods of the greek myth.

What we gain is a tighter connection to the Greek Mythology, which is exactly what Azarrello is using to drive the book, it is the engine that he uses to generate the plots and it really worked here.

What makes it work different than before is that change, before you cannot really embrace that mythology completely cause even the amazons weren’t like the one of the greek myth and gods were nothing similar to gods.

Which lead me to the second part of this retcon, Gods.

Gods are Ideas; they are dreams that escaped into the real world.

That’s the interpretation of them on Sandman and this new gods really reminded me of that.

The new Gods of the Olympus are the most interesting part of Wonder Woman, all a unique design, more than just some bearded guys in togas.

This retcons are great additions that open new possibilities for a great character.

7- New Justice League

Cause this worked sooo well

I will like to point out at what Marvel’s Avengers have been doing in the last couple of years, mainly thanks to Brian Bendis, but it moved from being just one of many titles in Marvel to the main driving force of Marvel.

The Justice League could never be like that before.

What we lost is years of stories of a group after group of the same team, but those stories don’t really matter to sustain what the concept of the JL, which is a group made of the best of the best of DC Universe.

You just need to see at the last 5-6 or more years of What DC did with such concept to realize that It was almost impossible to make it work.

What we gain is an open path, we finally can say that we can have a place for DC biggest superheroes to be without having to be restricted by editorial problems

Now the JL is the center of DC and not just affected by it

6- New Supergirl

Supergirl is one of those characters who just get re-imagined at least once every 10 years, and just when you think that she is going somewhere, she is reinvented again.

I really liked the previous supergirl, or like I like to call it, the Lindsay Lohan supergirl, she had amnesia so no memories of Krypton so she had nothing lost, occasionally becoming an evil supergirl sometimes and was just literally portray as this girl out of her element who was trying to make her own life while she had superpowers, so she pretty much an original, and by original I mean a newly created character, that was also the cousin of superman but with no relation to him, at the end of the day she was just a T&A character with a bitchy personality.

she is a very very bad girl, needs spanking

At least until Sterling Gates came out and pull his own retcon in which basically supergirl just had Kryptonite poisoning which lead her to have a really slutty personality, so she recovers herself, improves herself as a person and start using shorts underneath her skirt and a longer shirt.

Gates’s Supergirl run was pretty much the only good thing to happen during New Krypton, until new Krypton killed her entire family, her home, her friends and she sinks into depression and then turn evil again.

Which is why retconing her was the only sure choice.

After all that volume supergirl was turn from a 90s T&A superhero, to a decent super hero, to then an emo superhero, not because that was her own story, but because of the wimps and indecision of an editorial who had no idea on what to do with her, the lost of the previous supergirl is just not a big lost and what we got instead was a new reimaging and more grounded version of the Pre-Crisis supergirl even with a very interesting reimaging of Silver Banshee as her new best friend.

This is a good example of a retcon open to much interesting possibilities.

5- New Hell

Reign in Hell, I bet no one even remembers this, it was a comic miniseries which deal with the war between Lord Infernus and Neron, which end with Lady Blaze tricking everybody and winning Hell, and the end result was very anticlimactic and had little to no importance, and even a ton of continuity problems with other titles.

The new 52 reopens the gates of hell under the foundations of its best possible version in comicbook form

The New Hell under the domain of Lucifer himself

The comparison is not even fair, I just cant wait what can be done with this in the future.

4- Billy Batson is a Jerk

Captain Marvel and Shazam is probably one of the hardest properties to use on the DCU, he worked well in the Golden Age as well as into stories like Shazam: Monster Society of Evil, which dealt with a more light tone but was isolated from the rest of DC, and the last times that it has been used in the DCU it had terrible results, just to mention a few the Trials of Shazam which selected a new Captain Marvel only to be underused and later humiliated in Cry for Justice, the vilification of Mary Marvel in the infamous Countdown and Final Crisis(btw Did you know that Mary Marvel was inspired by Otto Binder own daughter who later tragically dies in a car accident), in fact the only positive aspect of Shazam to influence DCU was in the character of Black Adam, but the main guy, Billi Batson just didn’t fit.

Until Now.

I heard a ton of complains about this including some that read that Johns basically destroyed the character by making him into a no good Jerk but I really don’t think he make it into a jerk rather into a realistic character, before the character was almost an stereotypical goody good guy that kind of reflected a very bland child character from the 50s, now this update is basically the interpretation of the youth of the 2010s, and it feels right and appropriate, and the most important part is that it doesn’t limit the character rather than giving him layers for deeper development.

3- Abby Arcane, Queen of the Rot

Abby Arcane is by far one of the strongest women in comics, in terms of personality she is up there with Gwen Stacy, Lois Lane or Selina Kyle but she was always a human character with flaws and sadly not many writers got the character and often succumb to the classic hole of just treating her like T&A material to exploit or just dont understood the character at all(Nancy A. Collins).

The New Twist in the character transforms her into something more, It makes her an Equal and Opposite to the Swamp Thing and puts them into a very Shakespearean situation which despite of all feels natural and adequate.

.

2- Aquaman and the Other League

I think Aquaman’s continuity is heavily underated, he just has a very rich story from his relation with Mera, his wedding, the lost of his baby, the lost of Tula, the separation with Mera and more, but between the last few years there has been a real attempt to constantly reinvent Aquaman starting with his last volume, he got magic water powers, then he became leader of Sub-diego, and then was turn into a half water-half human-half squid thingy, was replaced by a new aquaman and then died, became a zombie and returned, a little convoluted so the complete retcon that he had can be seen as a benign one, nor bad nor great, just ok.

The idea of this new Aquaman is that it goes back to basics, It provides a new fresh take to him and the Other League just gives him even more depth, because that story of him with Mera, part of that is still intact but what happen before he finds atlantis and how he grows up to become the hero he is now as well as providing a very diverse and interesting cast of characters to play with open a huge ton of interesting possibilities.

1- Animal Man, Guardian of the Red

There is one thing that you should consider from certain writers works and is that they often draw inspiration from other sources in order to do their work, the end result is try to emulate either a part of the story, a character or even just a feeling and sensation that it gains which can be both good or bad for the story depending on how it is approach.

For example Scott Snyder has said several times that he used a lot from things like The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on A Serious Earth to work on his new Batman arc, not that there is any strong similarities from those comics but when you see the way that Snyder writes the characters and the situations you can see that he has a profound understanding and respect for those storylines and tries to use what he learn from them to his advantage. and on the other hand we have Batgirl, in which pretty much every single chp resolves around imitating The Killing Joke, in more than a way to emulate it but without really respecting or even understanding the source material in the slightest.

The point of this is that when I read Animal Man, I feel a very strong inspiration coming out of Alan Moore's Saga of the Swamp Thing, which for those who dont know is my favorite comic of all time, just a perfect comic from every single point of view, and Jeff Lemire is not the first to try to imitate him and definitely not the last.

The gist of Saga of the Swamp Thing is that when Moore took over he gave it the perfect plot twist, The Swamp Thing realizes that every single thing that he knew is wrong, that he is not what he thought he was and that change his entire perspective and motivation as well as changed his entire world, and i have seen a ton of comics try to do this, especially in the new 52 and failed Miserably.

The retcon of Animal Man is that he always thought that he was given powers by aliens in order to protect the environment, the reality is that he was never important, his role only to the one of a breeder to give birth to the new Avatar of the Red, his daughter .

Now, Animal Man has never been the conventional superhero but now he is not a superhero at all, his main focus in the new book is just the one of a father trying to protect his daughter, a man who tries to protect his family. Simple, effective, interesting. Nothing else to say.

End of Blog Post

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50 Comments
50 Comments
Posted by colonyofcells

I also like the reboots of Flash and Hawkman. Hawkman is more powerful now and seem like he can fight Superman. The reboot of Dr Manhattan Captain Atom looked promising at first. Also like reboot of Grifter who now has more mental powers. I Vampire reboot also interesting. Michael Holt was just unlucky and got a bad writer. It has been a while since Phantom Stranger and Vibe were last used. I also enjoy the former vertigo characters like Constantine.

Posted by Durfee

I'm not going to comment on any of the others, but I definitely agree with the Billy Batson selection. I have very, very little experience with the Shazam/Captain Marvel story, but I really enjoyed reading the Curse of Shazam in Justice League, in one or two cases more than the JL story they came with.

Posted by sethysquare

6- New Supergirl

Supergirl is one of those characters who just get re-imagined at least once every 10 years, and just when you think that she is going somewhere, she is reinvented again.

I really liked the previous supergirl, or like I like to call it, the Lindsay Lohan supergirl, she had amnesia so no memories of Krypton so she had nothing lost, occasionally becoming an evil supergirl sometimes and was just literally portray as this girl out of her element who was trying to make her own life while she had superpowers, so she pretty much an original, and by original I mean a newly created character, that was also the cousin of superman but with no relation to him, at the end of the day she was just a T&A character with a bitchy personality.

she is a very very bad girl, needs spanking

At least until Sterling Gates came out and pull his own retcon in which basically supergirl just had Kryptonite poisoning which lead her to have a really slutty personality, so she recovers herself, improves herself as a person and start using shorts underneath her skirt and a longer shirt.

I don't necessarily agree with everything you're saying here, but I thought this was extremely funny. I did like the previous Supergirl than all the other retcons like Matrix and whatever bull shit that isn't Kara.

Posted by TheCrowbar

Supergirl is still batshit insane. Nothing really has changed about her.

Posted by SUNMAN

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

9.- New Krypton was pretty forgettable. Yeah it was a bad idea, but with or without the reboot it would have faded into obscurity

8.- I pretty much agree with you on this one. I was fine with the execution however.

7. agreed

6. I'm not really seeing a big change in the character or direction. She has a new costume I'm not crazy about, and she's all wide eyed and bushy tailed again, but still not seeing a drastic change.

5. what? Are we still talking DC comics here?

4. idk I'm kind of indifferent on this don't really see it as a big plus or a minus

3.-.................if u say so

2. - okay I guess I agree with this. I think this was going to happen with or without the reboot. Johns seemed like he was prepping for the Aquaman solo before DC fully committed to the reboot he'd been building him up for the past 3 years if not more. But sure I'm all for the fresh take angle. Now I do like the concept of the Others but I don't believe Johns will ever fully develop the team, much like the Kingdom over in Batwing. They are there they are interesting. And some of them died, but I'm not expecting much more.

1.-...............................................

Posted by colonyofcells

I like most of the reboots which have brought back most of the silver age Justice League : Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash Barry Allen, Green Lantern Hal Jordan, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Green Arrow, Hawkman Katar Hol.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@colonyofcells said:

I also like the reboots of Flash and Hawkman. Hawkman is more powerful now and seem like he can fight Superman. The reboot of Dr Manhattan Captain Atom looked promising at first. Also like reboot of Grifter who now has more mental powers. I Vampire reboot also interesting. Michael Holt was just unlucky and got a bad writer. It has been a while since Phantom Stranger and Vibe were last used. I also enjoy the former vertigo characters like Constantine.

With Flash, im in the middle

I like the book, but I feel like the thing that changed for good are pretty much equal with the things that changed for bad, and there are stuff that just could had been done without rebooting everything.

The book is good, but i still miss Wally, I still miss that Jay isnt here, that Barry lost pretty much everything

Hawkman... Why? seriously Daniels and Liefeld, DC WANTED to just destroy any possibility that they could get with the character

Grifter I actually liked, even some of the Liefeld issues, but I never read anything with Grifter before so I wasnt sure to comment on that

same case with I, Vampire, Its just a fantastic book, but we could have gotten that book without an reboot or without the new 52, i wanted to focus on stuff that changed

Michael Holt, now the sad part of Mr Terrific was that most of his origin is pretty much the same, just with very little changes but Wallace was so incompetent that he hurt the character and made the origin less original and compelling, but were still very little changes, the biggest problems of Mr Terrific was that the writing was awful and nothing much to do with changes or retcons

@Durfee said:

I'm not going to comment on any of the others, but I definitely agree with the Billy Batson selection. I have very, very little experience with the Shazam/Captain Marvel story, but I really enjoyed reading the Curse of Shazam in Justice League, in one or two cases more than the JL story they came with.

I highly recommend you to check Shazam: Monster Society of Evil which is pretty much the best Captain Marvel book ever made

@sethysquare said:

I don't necessarily agree with everything you're saying here, but I thought this was extremely funny. I did like the previous Supergirl than all the other retcons like Matrix and whatever bull shit that isn't Kara.

I also liked the previous Kara, I even liked the Lindsay Lohan phase until she tried to cure cancer, then it tried to be serious and just lost all that made it fun, Gates really reinvigorated the character completely,but the problems of it, Mainly New Krypton just were to big to not retcon

the new one feels like version 2.1 of Gates version, they took out all of the things that didnt work out and tried to work with the better parts of it, which is something i expected from much more other characters with the reboot

@TheCrowbar said:

Supergirl is still batshit insane. Nothing really has changed about her.

thats not true at all

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

9.- New Krypton was pretty forgettable. Yeah it was a bad idea, but with or without the reboot it would have faded into obscurity

8.- I pretty much agree with you on this one. I was fine with the execution however.

7. agreed

6. I'm not really seeing a big change in the character or direction. She has a new costume I'm not crazy about, and she's all wide eyed and bushy tailed again, but still not seeing a drastic change.

5. what? Are we still talking DC comics here?

4. idk I'm kind of indifferent on this don't really see it as a big plus or a minus

3.-.................if u say so

2. - okay I guess I agree with this. I think this was going to happen with or without the reboot. Johns seemed like he was prepping for the Aquaman solo before DC fully committed to the reboot he'd been building him up for the past 3 years if not more. But sure I'm all for the fresh take angle. Now I do like the concept of the Others but I don't believe Johns will ever fully develop the team, much like the Kingdom over in Batwing. They are there they are interesting. And some of them died, but I'm not expecting much more.

1.-...............................................

10- The Reboot erased way WAY more bad stories than good and you have to admit that, People miss 3-4 years of stories when 20 go from forgettable to just Bad and those things we lost we can still recover, I like the New TT book, but im not saying that here, im saying that the reboot make it easier to be a good again rather than just stoping because there is 20 years of story behind and characters that were maim(Roy, Risk), tortured(who wasnt), rape(miss martian), or kill(too many) can still have a chance to be back with a fresh take

9- completely disagree, NK was a giant tumor in superman history you just cant ignore that

6- heh ok

5- yeah, read Demon Knights, Lucifer is King of hell then and even though that might mean that he might not be in the present he is still there to be used.

I really feel like this opens new grounds that were only available for Vertigo

4- why not, it is pretty much the best part of the JL comic

2- I would agree with the idea that the Others might not comeback but i dont mainly cause most of them died, the ones left are still there and i can still see them reappear in Aquaman or even in other books, hell some could even get their own ongoings, and the old ones will always comeback when we see a flashback of Arthur in the past

3 & 1- I will confess something, I really had a hard time coming out with 10 of this so to help me i just had to look at the titles that i love the most in DC right now and that had changes on it, and it was still hard, for example I hate or Im indifferent pretty much every single change on Batman because of the new 52, I just dont see a single positive thing that was retconned there and I still like most of the Batman Titles, so what was left were Swamp Thing and Animal Man and those count as retcons and just make the titles way more interesting

the whole ambivalence between Alec and Abby is just fantastic and she is no longer just a damsel in distress like in previous runs, and the new idea for Animal Man is pretty much what makes the book so good

or would you prefer to see buddy fighting for animal rights XD?

Posted by TheCrowbar

@arnoldoaad: So in the first New DCU run Supergirl doesn't attack people and punch Superman in the head? Wait no she does. She doesn't side with a Kryptonian villian over her own family? No wait she does.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: So in the first New DCU run Supergirl doesn't attack people and punch Superman in the head? Wait no she does.

No she doesnt, she hit Superman because she was just attacked by humans who she couldnt even understand and didnt believe that Kal was telling the truth, not because she wake up naked in the middle of Gotham and had amnesia.

She doesn't side with a Kryptonian villian over her own family? No wait she does.

for completely different reasons, and she was being controlled by Darksied, here she is being trick into saving Krypton, which is exactly what H'el wants, but she doesnt know that to return to Krypton H'el will destroy Earth

Posted by TheCrowbar

@arnoldoaad: You're treating her as a person, I'm treating her as a character. Going ape shit crazy is a part of who she is, and that makes her a bad character.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: You're treating her as a person, I'm treating her as a character. Going ape shit crazy is a part of who she is, and that makes her a bad character.

ehhh what?

I dont get it

Posted by TheCrowbar

@arnoldoaad said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: You're treating her as a person, I'm treating her as a character. Going ape shit crazy is a part of who she is, and that makes her a bad character.

ehhh what?

I dont get it

Her craziness is justified, they(DC editors and writers) always find a way to justify it. The fact that they send Supergirl to that well so often is disgusting, and makes her a bad character.

Posted by sethysquare

@arnoldoaad: but like i said before, i don't suscribe to the idea of a good or bad retcon. which is why i have a problem with it, because you mentioned the execution of WW retcon is bad but the retcon itself is good, yet both are on ur list. what suprises me is that you didn't have a clear definition of what a good retcon is. the execution, the story or the removal of a good/bad story. that is my biggest question mark with your analysis.

That being said, would you consider the removal of emerald twilight a good or bad retcon? it was definitely a bad story, but it added a huge mark to history and lots of depth to hal, the execution of the retcon wasn't much to begin with because they just conviniently skipped the whole thing out and it may or may not be a good idea to retcon the whole history out. That is what I am saying.

With regards to hell, theres also another part of hell which was formed when it showed hades bringing wonder woman down there. so did it retcon each other out?

For me, I just view them as good or bad stories. Ofcourse I do think most of the new 52 is at a much better place than before.

Posted by sethysquare

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@arnoldoaad: You're treating her as a person, I'm treating her as a character. Going ape shit crazy is a part of who she is, and that makes her a bad character.

ehhh what?

I dont get it

Her craziness is justified, they(DC editors and writers) always find a way to justify it. The fact that they send Supergirl to that well so often is disgusting, and makes her a bad character.

If it is justified then it is not crazy

besides, the crazyness of Kara pre-52 wasnt justified until Gates's run where he said, "oh she was poison"

now the character is just really an alien

@sethysquare said:

@arnoldoaad: but like i said before, i don't suscribe to the idea of a good or bad retcon. which is why i have a problem with it, because you mentioned the execution of WW retcon is bad but the retcon itself is good, yet both are on ur list. what suprises me is that you didn't have a clear definition of what a good retcon is. the execution, the story or the removal of a good/bad story. that is my biggest question mark with your analysis.

I did explain it, its the entire first paragraph of this analysis and I also touched it on the last blog

It doesnt matter how its done, its what you can get from it that defines it as positive or negative, the "WW is Zeus daughter" has a ton of plotholes, but that new found relationship with the new Olympian Gods is excellent, is the best part of the entire book.

I consider the Amazons retcon a bad one cause we havent got anything out of it other than "The Amazons are Evil and WW never notice it"

That being said, would you consider the removal of emerald twilight a good or bad retcon? it was definitely a bad story, but it added a huge mark to history and lots of depth to hal, the execution of the retcon wasn't much to begin with because they just conviniently skipped the whole thing out and it may or may not be a good idea to retcon the whole history out. That is what I am saying.

In this case, Its complicated

so Hal Jordan didnt became Parallax and didnt died and became the specter and didnt revive and pretty much half of Johns run didnt happen and the other half who the hell knows how it happen.

However none of those stories are relevant now, none have much weight cause Johns is just trying to move the entire franchise to the next story and he no longer needs that connection now, its was just remove to simplify the story.

its the same case as Aquaman, it doesnt matter if his hook hand time no longer exist cause is no longer relevant for the story and i think there are very good stories in that era.

It is not the same case as for example Batgirl retconing TKJ which i put as one of the worst retcons cause, for one I actually do think that TKJ is a great story which didnt need half the crap that Simone tried to add to it and got worst by the stuff she removed, and 2 is completely relevant to the entire comic to the point that 90% of the comic has to do with TKJ, it is just that by modifying that story is completely ruining its own bases.

and this is the important one it is just completely unnecessary because its deleting a ton of possibilities from that story, and opens nothing new from it, its diminishing.

to go back to the point of Retcons

If by retconing a story, you are opening paths to something more interesting, then is good, like reviving a character, removing a story that hinders further progress, that is goof

if it closes them or if you are not getting anything out of it, then why the f**** did you do it?

change for change sake, just doesnt exist, there is a reason to do this kind of things, I may not like WW #3, but i do like what came out of it

is that clear enough?

With regards to hell, theres also another part of hell which was formed when it showed hades bringing wonder woman down there. so did it retcon each other out?

thats not hell, thats the place of the death, the greeks had no concept of hell and heaven, its more like the underworld and place of the gods

For me, I just view them as good or bad stories. Ofcourse I do think most of the new 52 is at a much better place than before.

Like i told Sunman, I really had a hard time coming out with 10 for this list and it was so easy to make the "worst" list

We gained some, we lost a lot, we "might" get a lot in the future but who knows, thats what I think of the new 52

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

see, I agree with this exactly, I will even add that Johns run in TT wasnt even that good, its one of his lesser works to be honest, it is right there with his second flash run

by rebooting TT we really lost nothing worth keeping

Posted by SUNMAN

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

Posted by sethysquare

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

uhm, roster is the least concern when it came to story telling. Supergirl belongs to justice league, static is out of bounds due to copyrights issue, blue beetle is joining threshold, rose wilson is in an atagonistic position with the team and red devil sucks and already ceased to exist (hopefully)..

also eddy barrows is taking over brett booth and besides, brett booth's art is far from "bad" that is just your personal opinion which really isn't much when it comes down to story telling.

the whole point of teen titans is that they want to seperate the side kicks from the adults and not make them side kicks. I don't really wanna read a book about a few sidekicks wishing they were more like justice league. that is probably the reason why marvel's sidekicks never got around to doing much. now with the reboot, they're establishing the characters even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

Posted by SUNMAN

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

uhm, roster is the least concern when it came to story telling. Supergirl belongs to justice league, static is out of bounds due to copyrights issue, blue beetle is joining threshold, rose wilson is in an atagonistic position with the team and red devil sucks and already ceased to exist (hopefully)..

also eddy barrows is taking over brett booth and besides, brett booth's art is far from "bad" that is just your personal opinion which really isn't much when it comes down to story telling.

the whole point of teen titans is that they want to seperate the side kicks from the adults and not make them side kicks. I don't really wanna read a book about a few sidekicks wishing they were more like justice league. that is probably the reason why marvel's sidekicks never got around to doing much. now with the reboot, they're establishing the characters even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

I was speaking about past runs not the current run in regards to roster. Milestone had been allowing DC to use Static quite a bit until recently. But once again I was talking about past Titans runs not the current.

Obviously that's my opinion. And of course art matters comics are a visual medium. All Booth's faces look the same and his builds are very similar. His art work on Justice League was much better, his art work in Teen Titans is some of his worst work. The inking isn't helping either. Just a poor team that doesn't complement each other.

Yeah the point of Teen Titans was to be seperate and that is nothing new. We've been marching to that drum for over 20 years. The Teen Titans were never the Justice League, not even the first team that kind of came of as a mini League since they were all sidekicks.

I don't see how the reboot establishes the characters as even more indpendant. Tim is still a member of the Batfamily, Superboy is starting to connect with Superman. Other than that it feels like the same old Teen Titans we've gotten over the last few years. The histories been wiped (sort of), which would be expected in a reboot but they've left it slightly ambiguous or just made an error and are trying to retcon it. Regardless its fine its a reboot so it makes sense. Still the title hasn't really gone anywhere.

We thought the organization N.O.W.H.E.R.E was going to be something awesome but that story line didn't go anywhere. It's just back to the same old generic mediocre stories under the guise of a relaunch. End of the day the book could have been so much more and truly taken in a bold new direction, but DC is playing it safe and doing the same thing they've been doing with Teen Titans over the last few years.

Outside of the art the book is passable, but the writing is just generic and a little cliche. I let the first 5 or 6 issue slide its a new universe and I'll let the creative team try to establish the settings and the characters, but after 14 issues we haven't seen much to speak on.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@SUNMAN said:

s even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

I was speaking about past runs not the current run in regards to roster. Milestone had been allowing DC to use Static quite a bit until recently. But once again I was talking about past Titans runs not the current.

Obviously that's my opinion. And of course art matters comics are a visual medium. All Booth's faces look the same and his builds are very similar. His art work on Justice League was much better, his art work in Teen Titans is some of his worst work. The inking isn't helping either. Just a poor team that doesn't complement each other.

Yeah the point of Teen Titans was to be seperate and that is nothing new. We've been marching to that drum for over 20 years. The Teen Titans were never the Justice League, not even the first team that kind of came of as a mini League since they were all sidekicks.

I don't see how the reboot establishes the characters as even more indpendant. Tim is still a member of the Batfamily, Superboy is starting to connect with Superman. Other than that it feels like the same old Teen Titans we've gotten over the last few years. The histories been wiped (sort of), which would be expected in a reboot but they've left it slightly ambiguous or just made an error and are trying to retcon it. Regardless its fine its a reboot so it makes sense. Still the title hasn't really gone anywhere.

We thought the organization N.O.W.H.E.R.E was going to be something awesome but that story line didn't go anywhere. It's just back to the same old generic mediocre stories under the guise of a relaunch. End of the day the book could have been so much more and truly taken in a bold new direction, but DC is playing it safe and doing the same thing they've been doing with Teen Titans over the last few years.

Outside of the art the book is passable, but the writing is just generic and a little cliche. I let the first 5 or 6 issue slide its a new universe and I'll let the creative team try to establish the settings and the characters, but after 14 issues we haven't seen much to speak on.

There is nothing wrong with playing it safe once in a while

Posted by sethysquare

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

uhm, roster is the least concern when it came to story telling. Supergirl belongs to justice league, static is out of bounds due to copyrights issue, blue beetle is joining threshold, rose wilson is in an atagonistic position with the team and red devil sucks and already ceased to exist (hopefully)..

also eddy barrows is taking over brett booth and besides, brett booth's art is far from "bad" that is just your personal opinion which really isn't much when it comes down to story telling.

the whole point of teen titans is that they want to seperate the side kicks from the adults and not make them side kicks. I don't really wanna read a book about a few sidekicks wishing they were more like justice league. that is probably the reason why marvel's sidekicks never got around to doing much. now with the reboot, they're establishing the characters even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

I was speaking about past runs not the current run in regards to roster. Milestone had been allowing DC to use Static quite a bit until recently. But once again I was talking about past Titans runs not the current.

Obviously that's my opinion. And of course art matters comics are a visual medium. All Booth's faces look the same and his builds are very similar. His art work on Justice League was much better, his art work in Teen Titans is some of his worst work. The inking isn't helping either. Just a poor team that doesn't complement each other.

Yeah the point of Teen Titans was to be seperate and that is nothing new. We've been marching to that drum for over 20 years. The Teen Titans were never the Justice League, not even the first team that kind of came of as a mini League since they were all sidekicks.

I don't see how the reboot establishes the characters as even more indpendant. Tim is still a member of the Batfamily, Superboy is starting to connect with Superman. Other than that it feels like the same old Teen Titans we've gotten over the last few years. The histories been wiped (sort of), which would be expected in a reboot but they've left it slightly ambiguous or just made an error and are trying to retcon it. Regardless its fine its a reboot so it makes sense. Still the title hasn't really gone anywhere.

We thought the organization N.O.W.H.E.R.E was going to be something awesome but that story line didn't go anywhere. It's just back to the same old generic mediocre stories under the guise of a relaunch. End of the day the book could have been so much more and truly taken in a bold new direction, but DC is playing it safe and doing the same thing they've been doing with Teen Titans over the last few years.

Outside of the art the book is passable, but the writing is just generic and a little cliche. I let the first 5 or 6 issue slide its a new universe and I'll let the creative team try to establish the settings and the characters, but after 14 issues we haven't seen much to speak on.

you obviously havent read the past titans run. teen titans has always been sanctioned by the justice league, they had a close relationship, they depend on the justice league. only time that they did not depend on justice league was when the ordeal was personal. trigon's attack, terra's betrayal, deathstroke.

Other than that they've always been justice league junior. wally and barry, then bart and wally. dick and bruce then tim and bruce. superboy aspires to be superman. wondergirl is a fangirl that worships wonder woman. donna was like a little sister to diana.

This run however did nothing of that sort.

Bart's memories were erased from the time travelling, bruce doesn't even know tim founded teen titans, superboy wants nothing to do with superman, wondergirl is totally unrelated to wonderwoman. Yes, these separations may seem tough to bear and readers may get upset over it, but its crucial for them to have their own identity for them to succeed on their own. they can always start to build the sidekick/mentor relationship down the line, but the fact that they wont be junior justice league shows significant growth for them.

Posted by SUNMAN

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

uhm, roster is the least concern when it came to story telling. Supergirl belongs to justice league, static is out of bounds due to copyrights issue, blue beetle is joining threshold, rose wilson is in an atagonistic position with the team and red devil sucks and already ceased to exist (hopefully)..

also eddy barrows is taking over brett booth and besides, brett booth's art is far from "bad" that is just your personal opinion which really isn't much when it comes down to story telling.

the whole point of teen titans is that they want to seperate the side kicks from the adults and not make them side kicks. I don't really wanna read a book about a few sidekicks wishing they were more like justice league. that is probably the reason why marvel's sidekicks never got around to doing much. now with the reboot, they're establishing the characters even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

I was speaking about past runs not the current run in regards to roster. Milestone had been allowing DC to use Static quite a bit until recently. But once again I was talking about past Titans runs not the current.

Obviously that's my opinion. And of course art matters comics are a visual medium. All Booth's faces look the same and his builds are very similar. His art work on Justice League was much better, his art work in Teen Titans is some of his worst work. The inking isn't helping either. Just a poor team that doesn't complement each other.

Yeah the point of Teen Titans was to be seperate and that is nothing new. We've been marching to that drum for over 20 years. The Teen Titans were never the Justice League, not even the first team that kind of came of as a mini League since they were all sidekicks.

I don't see how the reboot establishes the characters as even more indpendant. Tim is still a member of the Batfamily, Superboy is starting to connect with Superman. Other than that it feels like the same old Teen Titans we've gotten over the last few years. The histories been wiped (sort of), which would be expected in a reboot but they've left it slightly ambiguous or just made an error and are trying to retcon it. Regardless its fine its a reboot so it makes sense. Still the title hasn't really gone anywhere.

We thought the organization N.O.W.H.E.R.E was going to be something awesome but that story line didn't go anywhere. It's just back to the same old generic mediocre stories under the guise of a relaunch. End of the day the book could have been so much more and truly taken in a bold new direction, but DC is playing it safe and doing the same thing they've been doing with Teen Titans over the last few years.

Outside of the art the book is passable, but the writing is just generic and a little cliche. I let the first 5 or 6 issue slide its a new universe and I'll let the creative team try to establish the settings and the characters, but after 14 issues we haven't seen much to speak on.

you obviously havent read the past titans run. teen titans has always been sanctioned by the justice league, they had a close relationship, they depend on the justice league. only time that they did not depend on justice league was when the ordeal was personal. trigon's attack, terra's betrayal, deathstroke.

Other than that they've always been justice league junior. wally and barry, then bart and wally. dick and bruce then tim and bruce. superboy aspires to be superman. wondergirl is a fangirl that worships wonder woman. donna was like a little sister to diana.

This run however did nothing of that sort.

Bart's memories were erased from the time travelling, bruce doesn't even know tim founded teen titans, superboy wants nothing to do with superman, wondergirl is totally unrelated to wonderwoman. Yes, these separations may seem tough to bear and readers may get upset over it, but its crucial for them to have their own identity for them to succeed on their own. they can always start to build the sidekick/mentor relationship down the line, but the fact that they wont be junior justice league shows significant growth for them.

This is just wrong. On all levels. Have you read the past Teen Titans runs? It's fine if you haven't but the Titans have never "depended on the Justice League.

The Titans were not originally sanctioned by the Justice League either, sure over the years they met and came into contact now and than. Than there were the 3 instances when the Titans fought against the leagues. When it happened in the 80's and 90's it worked. When it happened in the 2000's it felt wholly forced.

You don't think the current Justice League will find out about the Titans? they will. Maybe there will be a conflict maybe there won't be, but ultimately they will allow them to operate on their own/leave them alone just like they normally do.

Teen Titans never had any real supervision. Sure older Titans acted as mentors but your completely wrong about the Justice League calling the shots.

Barts still the time traveling dude.

Superboy is all buddy buddy with Superman now.

If Batman knows about the team r not its not a big deal Batman almost never deals with the Teen Titans, so as not to step on Robins toes. Batman most likely already knows about the Titans he has his noes into everything.

Don't confuse Teen Titans with Young Justice.

Anyone familiar with the Teen Titans runs of the 80's and 90's knows the Titans had little to do with the Justice League. The teams fought on two occasion but that was about it.

In the 2000's they had a little more interaction and the Teen Titans adopted the Young Justice members to the team and DC (Tim, Cassie, Kon etc), Maybe this is what you are referring to that time the Justice League butted in and how DC was trying to mirror the Trinity with the Titans I mean Ten Titans isn't a covert ops group other heroes already know about them, they were brought up in Superman and a Green Lantern title. End of the day the current book is not a drastically new take to those familiar with the series.

This title is easy for new readers to jump on to an extent I guess, but for olde readers its nothing particularly new. The only notable new draw would be the relaunch/blank slate of the franchise

Posted by sethysquare

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

uhm, roster is the least concern when it came to story telling. Supergirl belongs to justice league, static is out of bounds due to copyrights issue, blue beetle is joining threshold, rose wilson is in an atagonistic position with the team and red devil sucks and already ceased to exist (hopefully)..

also eddy barrows is taking over brett booth and besides, brett booth's art is far from "bad" that is just your personal opinion which really isn't much when it comes down to story telling.

the whole point of teen titans is that they want to seperate the side kicks from the adults and not make them side kicks. I don't really wanna read a book about a few sidekicks wishing they were more like justice league. that is probably the reason why marvel's sidekicks never got around to doing much. now with the reboot, they're establishing the characters even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

I was speaking about past runs not the current run in regards to roster. Milestone had been allowing DC to use Static quite a bit until recently. But once again I was talking about past Titans runs not the current.

Obviously that's my opinion. And of course art matters comics are a visual medium. All Booth's faces look the same and his builds are very similar. His art work on Justice League was much better, his art work in Teen Titans is some of his worst work. The inking isn't helping either. Just a poor team that doesn't complement each other.

Yeah the point of Teen Titans was to be seperate and that is nothing new. We've been marching to that drum for over 20 years. The Teen Titans were never the Justice League, not even the first team that kind of came of as a mini League since they were all sidekicks.

I don't see how the reboot establishes the characters as even more indpendant. Tim is still a member of the Batfamily, Superboy is starting to connect with Superman. Other than that it feels like the same old Teen Titans we've gotten over the last few years. The histories been wiped (sort of), which would be expected in a reboot but they've left it slightly ambiguous or just made an error and are trying to retcon it. Regardless its fine its a reboot so it makes sense. Still the title hasn't really gone anywhere.

We thought the organization N.O.W.H.E.R.E was going to be something awesome but that story line didn't go anywhere. It's just back to the same old generic mediocre stories under the guise of a relaunch. End of the day the book could have been so much more and truly taken in a bold new direction, but DC is playing it safe and doing the same thing they've been doing with Teen Titans over the last few years.

Outside of the art the book is passable, but the writing is just generic and a little cliche. I let the first 5 or 6 issue slide its a new universe and I'll let the creative team try to establish the settings and the characters, but after 14 issues we haven't seen much to speak on.

you obviously havent read the past titans run. teen titans has always been sanctioned by the justice league, they had a close relationship, they depend on the justice league. only time that they did not depend on justice league was when the ordeal was personal. trigon's attack, terra's betrayal, deathstroke.

Other than that they've always been justice league junior. wally and barry, then bart and wally. dick and bruce then tim and bruce. superboy aspires to be superman. wondergirl is a fangirl that worships wonder woman. donna was like a little sister to diana.

This run however did nothing of that sort.

Bart's memories were erased from the time travelling, bruce doesn't even know tim founded teen titans, superboy wants nothing to do with superman, wondergirl is totally unrelated to wonderwoman. Yes, these separations may seem tough to bear and readers may get upset over it, but its crucial for them to have their own identity for them to succeed on their own. they can always start to build the sidekick/mentor relationship down the line, but the fact that they wont be junior justice league shows significant growth for them.

This is just wrong. On all levels. Have you read the past Teen Titans runs? It's fine if you haven't but the Titans have never "depended on the Justice League.

The Titans were not originally sanctioned by the Justice League either, sure over the years they met and came into contact now and than. Than there were the 3 instances when the Titans fought against the leagues. When it happened in the 80's and 90's it worked. When it happened in the 2000's it felt wholly forced.

You don't think the current Justice League will find out about the Titans? they will. Maybe there will be a conflict maybe there won't be, but ultimately they will allow them to operate on their own/leave them alone just like they normally do.

Teen Titans never had any real supervision. Sure older Titans acted as mentors but your completely wrong about the Justice League calling the shots.

Barts still the time traveling dude.

Superboy is all buddy buddy with Superman now.

If Batman knows about the team r not its not a big deal Batman almost never deals with the Teen Titans, so as not to step on Robins toes. Batman most likely already knows about the Titans he has his noes into everything.

Don't confuse Teen Titans with Young Justice.

Anyone familiar with the Teen Titans runs of the 80's and 90's knows the Titans had little to do with the Justice League. The teams fought on two occasion but that was about it.

In the 2000's they had a little more interaction and the Teen Titans adopted the Young Justice members to the team and DC (Tim, Cassie, Kon etc), Maybe this is what you are referring to that time the Justice League butted in and how DC was trying to mirror the Trinity with the Titans I mean Ten Titans isn't a covert ops group other heroes already know about them, they were brought up in Superman and a Green Lantern title. End of the day the current book is not a drastically new take to those familiar with the series.

This title is easy for new readers to jump on to an extent I guess, but for olde readers its nothing particularly new. The only notable new draw would be the relaunch/blank slate of the franchise

Yes, Wally, Dick, Vic all moved up to being justice league and they mentored the teen titans.

Teen Titans has never been so separated with justice league as they are now. but no point arguing if you dont get your facts right.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sethysquare said:

Yes, Wally, Dick, Vic all moved up to being justice league and they mentored the teen titans.

Teen Titans has never been so separated with justice league as they are now. but no point arguing if you dont get your facts right.

what exactly is your point on this?

I just think that TT just kept going in the same loop over and over again which never allow it to improve, now it is finally free of that loop

Posted by colonyofcells

The New 52 Teen Titans is pretty much quite similar to the pre flashpoint Teen Titans but the members were affected by the reboots of most of the dc properties. The Superman reboot caused Superboy to also reboot. The Batman revamp did not affect Tim as much. The Wonder Woman reboot erased the Donna Troy history so the whole Marv Wolfman Teen Titans history got erased. The Barry reboot caused Wally history to be erased which also caused the Marv Wolfman Teen Titans history to be erased.

Posted by sethysquare

@arnoldoaad said:

@sethysquare said:

Yes, Wally, Dick, Vic all moved up to being justice league and they mentored the teen titans.

Teen Titans has never been so separated with justice league as they are now. but no point arguing if you dont get your facts right.

what exactly is your point on this?

I just think that TT just kept going in the same loop over and over again which never allow it to improve, now it is finally free of that loop

im just arguing against some of the points sunman stated, then i realised i can't be bothered to argue about it when i have to explain the whole situation to him.

Edited by SUNMAN

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

10.- no Teen Titans book sucks. The reboot hasn't changed anything except for erasing the good history. The a reboot isn't going to change anything only a good writer has the ability to revitalize the franchise. Sure easier said than done, but the reboot in no way has had the positive effect your talking about. Sure it had the potential but that's not saying much all in all.

If you liked boring teen titans, you can always go back to reading those lame teen titans books after johns left. not to mention, after the 80s, dc has tried so many times to recreate the whole NEW TEEN TITANS but failed to do so. Like for instance making them reunite, creating the whole team titans and that weird team with hotspot under dan jurgens. The magic only came back when geoff johns took a whole new roster with similar characters and made it work. Yet, that also went down to drain after subsequent writers butchered it.

Teen Titans have been the best it has always been.

Johns Teen Titans run was mediocre at best. The Roster was okay. If anything, he kind of merged elements of the Original Teen Titans and New Teen Titans on the roster.

The Original Titans book was just a junior Justice League book with the members being junior versions of the League. Johns kind of tried to bring this back with the junior Trinity in the Titans.

As I said the reboot didn't change anything, but removing the old continuity. Some might say this gave the series a fresh start, but seeing as Lobdell hasn't done anything with the title I would disagree. The current Teen Titans book has been generic at best, just like the title has been for years.

Sure now and than the Titans seems like they have a really good roster. I'll admit I got my hopes up when Supergirl, Static, Blue Beetle, Ravager and Red Devil were around.

The real bane of the Teen Titans book has been the art though. I do not like the art work. I can deal with Lobdell's mediocre or cliche stories now and than but coupled with bad art, is just a non sell.

Teen Titans Go! has been the best thing to happen for the Titans in the last 10 years.

I think DC should have just gone with a Young Justice title, this way it wouldn't have the stigma of the name Teen Titans.

But your right those comics still exist so you can go back and read them if you like not like they were erased forever. I didn't really care for them, but I bet you could find a good deal for them online just do a little searching. I'd avoid ebay though

uhm, roster is the least concern when it came to story telling. Supergirl belongs to justice league, static is out of bounds due to copyrights issue, blue beetle is joining threshold, rose wilson is in an atagonistic position with the team and red devil sucks and already ceased to exist (hopefully)..

also eddy barrows is taking over brett booth and besides, brett booth's art is far from "bad" that is just your personal opinion which really isn't much when it comes down to story telling.

the whole point of teen titans is that they want to seperate the side kicks from the adults and not make them side kicks. I don't really wanna read a book about a few sidekicks wishing they were more like justice league. that is probably the reason why marvel's sidekicks never got around to doing much. now with the reboot, they're establishing the characters even more to be independant of the adult and i think that interests me more than junior justice league.

I was speaking about past runs not the current run in regards to roster. Milestone had been allowing DC to use Static quite a bit until recently. But once again I was talking about past Titans runs not the current.

Obviously that's my opinion. And of course art matters comics are a visual medium. All Booth's faces look the same and his builds are very similar. His art work on Justice League was much better, his art work in Teen Titans is some of his worst work. The inking isn't helping either. Just a poor team that doesn't complement each other.

Yeah the point of Teen Titans was to be seperate and that is nothing new. We've been marching to that drum for over 20 years. The Teen Titans were never the Justice League, not even the first team that kind of came of as a mini League since they were all sidekicks.

I don't see how the reboot establishes the characters as even more indpendant. Tim is still a member of the Batfamily, Superboy is starting to connect with Superman. Other than that it feels like the same old Teen Titans we've gotten over the last few years. The histories been wiped (sort of), which would be expected in a reboot but they've left it slightly ambiguous or just made an error and are trying to retcon it. Regardless its fine its a reboot so it makes sense. Still the title hasn't really gone anywhere.

We thought the organization N.O.W.H.E.R.E was going to be something awesome but that story line didn't go anywhere. It's just back to the same old generic mediocre stories under the guise of a relaunch. End of the day the book could have been so much more and truly taken in a bold new direction, but DC is playing it safe and doing the same thing they've been doing with Teen Titans over the last few years.

Outside of the art the book is passable, but the writing is just generic and a little cliche. I let the first 5 or 6 issue slide its a new universe and I'll let the creative team try to establish the settings and the characters, but after 14 issues we haven't seen much to speak on.

you obviously havent read the past titans run. teen titans has always been sanctioned by the justice league, they had a close relationship, they depend on the justice league. only time that they did not depend on justice league was when the ordeal was personal. trigon's attack, terra's betrayal, deathstroke.

Other than that they've always been justice league junior. wally and barry, then bart and wally. dick and bruce then tim and bruce. superboy aspires to be superman. wondergirl is a fangirl that worships wonder woman. donna was like a little sister to diana.

This run however did nothing of that sort.

Bart's memories were erased from the time travelling, bruce doesn't even know tim founded teen titans, superboy wants nothing to do with superman, wondergirl is totally unrelated to wonderwoman. Yes, these separations may seem tough to bear and readers may get upset over it, but its crucial for them to have their own identity for them to succeed on their own. they can always start to build the sidekick/mentor relationship down the line, but the fact that they wont be junior justice league shows significant growth for them.

This is just wrong. On all levels. Have you read the past Teen Titans runs? It's fine if you haven't but the Titans have never "depended on the Justice League.

The Titans were not originally sanctioned by the Justice League either, sure over the years they met and came into contact now and than. Than there were the 3 instances when the Titans fought against the leagues. When it happened in the 80's and 90's it worked. When it happened in the 2000's it felt wholly forced.

You don't think the current Justice League will find out about the Titans? they will. Maybe there will be a conflict maybe there won't be, but ultimately they will allow them to operate on their own/leave them alone just like they normally do.

Teen Titans never had any real supervision. Sure older Titans acted as mentors but your completely wrong about the Justice League calling the shots.

Barts still the time traveling dude.

Superboy is all buddy buddy with Superman now.

If Batman knows about the team r not its not a big deal Batman almost never deals with the Teen Titans, so as not to step on Robins toes. Batman most likely already knows about the Titans he has his noes into everything.

Don't confuse Teen Titans with Young Justice.

Anyone familiar with the Teen Titans runs of the 80's and 90's knows the Titans had little to do with the Justice League. The teams fought on two occasion but that was about it.

In the 2000's they had a little more interaction and the Teen Titans adopted the Young Justice members to the team and DC (Tim, Cassie, Kon etc), Maybe this is what you are referring to that time the Justice League butted in and how DC was trying to mirror the Trinity with the Titans I mean Ten Titans isn't a covert ops group other heroes already know about them, they were brought up in Superman and a Green Lantern title. End of the day the current book is not a drastically new take to those familiar with the series.

This title is easy for new readers to jump on to an extent I guess, but for olde readers its nothing particularly new. The only notable new draw would be the relaunch/blank slate of the franchise

Yes, Wally, Dick, Vic all moved up to being justice league and they mentored the teen titans.

Teen Titans has never been so separated with justice league as they are now. but no point arguing if you dont get your facts right.

How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about. Try reading my posts firsts your totally missing the point. You do this a lot you respond generally to a specific point than when I call you on it you give some response that misses the point than flake. No need to respond if your unsure or haven't read what I'm talking about.

Yeah Wally became Flash and joined the Justice League. Vic was suppose to join the team Pre-Flashpoint but didn't really except for Morrison's Batman return. Donna was only on the team for the near the end Pre-Reboot. etc. etc. etc.

Nothing to do with my point

Posted by TDK_1997

I agree with you on everything except Teen Titans.

Posted by sethysquare

@SUNMAN said:

How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about. Try reading my posts firsts your totally missing the point. You do this a lot you respond generally to a specific point than when I call you on it you give some response that misses the point than flake. No need to respond if your unsure or haven't read what I'm talking about.

Yeah Wally became Flash and joined the Justice League. Vic was suppose to join the team Pre-Flashpoint but didn't really except for Morrison's Batman return. Donna was only on the team for the near the end Pre-Reboot. etc. etc. etc.

Nothing to do with my point

If your just going to be irrational and troll honestly what's the point. Good God at least read wikipedia. Thought you would have learned your lesson on CBR but I guess not

Firstly, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Wally joined the justice league YEARS AGO! what the hell do you think you are talking about. Dick became Batman a good several years before flashpoint. Vic was already with the league by the time the last volume started. My point was that these ex-titans has never truely left the team. they keep appearing, they keep coming back. even the ones who formed the previous team under geoff's run were people like dick, vic and kory. Even when Bart was in the team, Wally, Garrick all appeared as "father figures" mentoring them. Even Cassie's whole back story depend independantly on saving wonder woman's life.

How does that spell to you that prior to this the team is inextricably linked to the adults that it could never be free from it unless something dire and major happens.

The first time it happened was when Perez and Wolfman took over in the 80s. They created clean slates, they tried to move the team away from justice league and set up a universe on its own. That is great and all but that was 30 years ago. DC had time and again tried to use the same formula but failed. The last time anything worked was when johns took over the title, but that didn't even gave it a fresh start. They build up alot based on it being a junior justice league. Time after time they'll go back to their tower, Dr Midnight would be involved, Batman would be involved and they are always being supervised.

Now that is the point I'm trying to make, that the reboot allowed a clean slate and a fresh start. So if you want to start throwing personal attacks at me cos you lost an argument, I'm going to tell you f*** off. Just to let you know, I left CBR on my own accord, my username is still there and I can go back any time I want. I chose not to because of posters like you who could not use their big brains to formulate some sort of argument and try to start a flame war by using arguments not based on facts. Just say it, the reason you hate the new teen titans is because you're a continuity junkie, you love nostalgia and you especially love bad stories that plagued teen titans for the past few years caused by Mxkeever, krul and henderson.

So if you think that my post is irrational and trollish, feel free to not reply to it. don't pm me about bullshit and personal attacks.

Posted by SUNMAN

@sethysquare said:

@SUNMAN said:

How does that have anything to do with what we are talking about. Try reading my posts firsts your totally missing the point. You do this a lot you respond generally to a specific point than when I call you on it you give some response that misses the point than flake. No need to respond if your unsure or haven't read what I'm talking about.

Yeah Wally became Flash and joined the Justice League. Vic was suppose to join the team Pre-Flashpoint but didn't really except for Morrison's Batman return. Donna was only on the team for the near the end Pre-Reboot. etc. etc. etc.

Nothing to do with my point

If your just going to be irrational and troll honestly what's the point. Good God at least read wikipedia. Thought you would have learned your lesson on CBR but I guess not

Firstly, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Wally joined the justice league YEARS AGO! what the hell do you think you are talking about. Dick became Batman a good several years before flashpoint. Vic was already with the league by the time the last volume started. My point was that these ex-titans has never truely left the team. they keep appearing, they keep coming back. even the ones who formed the previous team under geoff's run were people like dick, vic and kory. Even when Bart was in the team, Wally, Garrick all appeared as "father figures" mentoring them. Even Cassie's whole back story depend independantly on saving wonder woman's life.

How does that spell to you that prior to this the team is inextricably linked to the adults that it could never be free from it unless something dire and major happens.

The first time it happened was when Perez and Wolfman took over in the 80s. They created clean slates, they tried to move the team away from justice league and set up a universe on its own. That is great and all but that was 30 years ago. DC had time and again tried to use the same formula but failed. The last time anything worked was when johns took over the title, but that didn't even gave it a fresh start. They build up alot based on it being a junior justice league. Time after time they'll go back to their tower, Dr Midnight would be involved, Batman would be involved and they are always being supervised.

Now that is the point I'm trying to make, that the reboot allowed a clean slate and a fresh start. So if you want to start throwing personal attacks at me cos you lost an argument, I'm going to tell you f*** off. Just to let you know, I left CBR on my own accord, my username is still there and I can go back any time I want. I chose not to because of posters like you who could not use their big brains to formulate some sort of argument and try to start a flame war by using arguments not based on facts. Just say it, the reason you hate the new teen titans is because you're a continuity junkie, you love nostalgia and you especially love bad stories that plagued teen titans for the past few years caused by Mxkeever, krul and henderson.

So if you think that my post is irrational and trollish, feel free to not reply to it. don't pm me about bullshit and personal attacks.

putting words in my mouth again. Insinuating things I never said. I think I'm done here.

Wally was Flash for well over a decade. Dick became Batman in 2009. As was clear was my post I was talking about the entire Titans history. There was no argument you've been talking past me this whole time and still are. I know you've been hounding me after the whole Green Lantern thing and that's fine. I'd tell you to get over it and relax. As I said I'm done replying to you. I find you get overly aggressive with people who disagree with you and if they don't kowtow to your views you become increasingly condescending if not outright start flaming. If there is a day you can have a calm cool and collected discussion with me please let me know I'll be here.

Posted by xtremekidx

nice blog....another interesting one....agree with what you have written....

Posted by arnoldoaad

@TDK_1997 said:

I agree with you on everything except Teen Titans.

I expected that a lot

@xtremekidx said:

nice blog....another interesting one....agree with what you have written....

Thanks

Posted by arnoldoaad

bumpo

Posted by Zyrok

I really like threads like this. You're not complaining about the change, you're criticizing it. For me, the New52 is wonderfull because of the Dark Corner. AA, Swamp Thing, JLD, Sword of Sorcery, Demon Knights, I, Vampire(sadly gone).

I think the reboot gave a great opportunity for TT to grow... But Lobdell just fuck*d up. The story was all over the place, a mess. Did not like it at all.

Posted by Mr_Holmes

Arnoldo, you do realize your #1 is not a retcon of the New 52? It's from Jamie Delano's Animal Man.

Posted by bloggerboy

Wonder Woman is indeed one of the best retcons of the New 52. It's actually living up to that title, the New 52. I love what Snyder is doing with Batman but Azzarello is blowing me away with every issue he does.

Posted by MadeinBangladesh

One of My favorite things to read from the new 52 has to be Animal Man!

Online
Posted by Charlie_Jade

I'm not happy with the retcon of Wonder Woman's mythology or Supergirl's story. Also Justice League is a problem for me because Batman and GreeLantern are STILL IN OLD CONTINUITY while everyone else in Nu52 has been magically rebooted into an alternative universe. Putting a compressed Batman/GreenLantern timelines into the new continuity makes no sense to me, it's like a really confusing episode of Lost or Stargate or something. The writers should have spent more time on this.

Posted by Outside_85

Late to the party, but:

In regards to the Teen Titans, I noticed that @arnoldoaad: is pretty much just slamming the last volume of Teen Titans instead of complimenting the current run. I agree that vol. 3 isn't going to be remembered as a neo-classic.

Johns spent his entire run making the team deal with its own internal problems...before he decided killing some of the later ones would be better if they were dead. Editorial crippled McKeever's run. Henderson didn't seem to have any deeper understanding of the characters she was handling or writing a comic book. And JT Krul was cut short thanks to Flashpoint, so he didn't get to expand on the stuff he wanted to do; Rose vs. Slade, Jackson Hyde joins the team, Superboy finding someone else...

That said, I don't think it's valid to say Teen Titans has been a successful reboot (unless you only look at sales) purely on the background of the predecessor sucked. I have said this before and I will do so again:

The current Teen Titans book stinks of 90'ties X-Men, like someone in the DC office (probably Mr. 90'ties himself; Bob Harras); "Hey wouldn't it be great if TT was more like the X-Men?" And then someone agreed and Harras brought in a 90'ties X-Men writer, and we ended up with a Teen Titans book where;

  • Just about everyone hates and fears them
  • The government sponsors a concentration camp for those they can't use or control and puts a Red Skull-wannabe in charge
  • And then the team is composed of people who have embraced their inner jerks when they aren't just cliché's

I am sorry, but so far there hasn't been a trade-off in Lobdell's X-Titans yet that's made it worth erasing the good bits of what used to be.

Note: I don't agree entirely with the points about Justice League, because it's still slaved to whatever is going on in the solo books (absence of Flash, GL for instance). New Hell...I will point out that Lucifer has so far only appeared in Demon Knights and I don't expect to see him in the modern world, since he still appears to be bored with Hell (leaving it open that the Lucifer series is still in effect) and that the only other major demon that's appeared so far is Trigon (who may or may not be the current Satan...always thought it was odd he was omitted from Reign in Hell). Supergirl retcon; I really don't see an clear improvement since now she is still flailing all over the place...and is currently just H'El's pretty dense sidekick (hope the new writer lives up to the Want to Have Fun promise).

Posted by sethysquare

@Outside_85 said:

  • Just about everyone hates and fears them
  • The government sponsors a concentration camp for those they can't use or control and puts a Red Skull-wannabe in charge

1. really? I don't see that everyone fears and hate them.

2. Government? I dont think they are the government, just a terrorist group.

Posted by Outside_85

@sethysquare said:

@Outside_85 said:

  • Just about everyone hates and fears them
  • The government sponsors a concentration camp for those they can't use or control and puts a Red Skull-wannabe in charge

1. really? I don't see that everyone fears and hate them.

2. Government? I dont think they are the government, just a terrorist group.

1. Have you seen anyone that was pleased to see them?

2. It was established in issue two or three (when Tim was chatting with Cassandra) that N.O.W.H.E.R.E. had permission to do what it did and that their clearance exceeded pretty much everyone elses.

Posted by SupBatz

I can agree (on some level) with pretty much everything on the list except Billy Batson's retcon.

I admit it, pre-reboot Captain Marvel did feel a lot like a typical Golden Age, 1950's, goody-goody. And under some writers' pens that just wasn't handled well at all.

But that's also what was most endearing about Captain Marvel. That despite any tragedy he might have endured in the past he was still innocent and good, He was a symbol that no matter what one has to go with, one can still stay pure and good. And that goodness can be rewarded. I wouldn't go as far as to call him uncoruptable, but always willing to do (what he felt was) the right thing.

Post-reboot Shazam has an interesting idea driving him. It's interesting thathe's more realistic and that his powers only work when he uses them for good reasons. But it also takes away a lot of what the character really meant, to me at least, before the reboot. And I'd gladly trade and enbittered Shazam back for classic Billy Batson anyday.

I'm fine with rebooting characters in a drastic way. But not if it's done such that so little remains of the original character and what does remain feels inferior to the original take on the character.

Posted by sethysquare

@Outside_85 said:

@sethysquare said:

@Outside_85 said:

  • Just about everyone hates and fears them
  • The government sponsors a concentration camp for those they can't use or control and puts a Red Skull-wannabe in charge

1. really? I don't see that everyone fears and hate them.

2. Government? I dont think they are the government, just a terrorist group.

1. Have you seen anyone that was pleased to see them?

2. It was established in issue two or three (when Tim was chatting with Cassandra) that N.O.W.H.E.R.E. had permission to do what it did and that their clearance exceeded pretty much everyone elses.

1. I don't see otherwise

2. scans?

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Outside_85 said:

Late to the party, but:

In regards to the Teen Titans, I noticed that @arnoldoaad: is pretty much just slamming the last volume of Teen Titans instead of complimenting the current run. I agree that vol. 3 isn't going to be remembered as a neo-classic.

Johns spent his entire run making the team deal with its own internal problems...before he decided killing some of the later ones would be better if they were dead. Editorial crippled McKeever's run. Henderson didn't seem to have any deeper understanding of the characters she was handling or writing a comic book. And JT Krul was cut short thanks to Flashpoint, so he didn't get to expand on the stuff he wanted to do; Rose vs. Slade, Jackson Hyde joins the team, Superboy finding someone else...

well that was pretty much the point of the thread

The New 52 made a ton of changes, Most of them for the worse in my opinion but some of them had been improvements

I cant show that they are improvements without comparing them with the previous runs, maybe im not showing what is good about TT because what i see good on it is not what is on the book but what can be done with the book, it just have more possibilities than before.

and what Krul wanted to do and what he actually did in TT are 2 completely different things, i can make the same argument for all the other writers, if only henderson was a good writer and had more time her run wouldnt had been one of the worst comic book runs i have ever read

That said, I don't think it's valid to say Teen Titans has been a successful reboot (unless you only look at sales) purely on the background of the predecessor sucked. I have said this before and I will do so again:

I would never consider a book as a success only because of sales

The current Teen Titans book stinks of 90'ties X-Men, like someone in the DC office (probably Mr. 90'ties himself; Bob Harras); "Hey wouldn't it be great if TT was more like the X-Men?" And then someone agreed and Harras brought in a 90'ties X-Men writer, and we ended up with a Teen Titans book where;

  • Just about everyone hates and fears them
  • The government sponsors a concentration camp for those they can't use or control and puts a Red Skull-wannabe in charge
  • And then the team is composed of people who have embraced their inner jerks when they aren't just cliché's

I am sorry, but so far there hasn't been a trade-off in Lobdell's X-Titans yet that's made it worth erasing the good bits of what used to be.

1- thats a theme in the entire new 52 not just TT

2- the government didnt sponsor NOWHERE or the culling

3- How is that any different from Krul's run, seriously are characters like Headcase or THE JOCK really that multidimentional

Note: I don't agree entirely with the points about Justice League, because it's still slaved to whatever is going on in the solo books (absence of Flash, GL for instance). New Hell...I will point out that Lucifer has so far only appeared in Demon Knights and I don't expect to see him in the modern world, since he still appears to be bored with Hell (leaving it open that the Lucifer series is still in effect) and that the only other major demon that's appeared so far is Trigon (who may or may not be the current Satan...always thought it was odd he was omitted from Reign in Hell). Supergirl retcon; I really don't see an clear improvement since now she is still flailing all over the place...and is currently just H'El's pretty dense sidekick (hope the new writer lives up to the Want to Have Fun promise).

Again, i had a really hard time coming out with 10 of these, the new 52 SUCKS, but there are still some salvable things here and there and this are those

Posted by Outside_85

@arnoldoaad:

1. It's stronger in TT, the only place it might have been even worse was in JLI.

2. Read #2

3. Difference is that Jock and Headcase were villains and were supposed to be jerks, under Lobdell it's Tim, Cassandra and Conner who are supposed to be the heroes.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Outside_85 said:

@arnoldoaad:

1. It's stronger in TT, the only place it might have been even worse was in JLI.

2. Read #2

3. Difference is that Jock and Headcase were villains and were supposed to be jerks, under Lobdell it's Tim, Cassandra and Conner who are supposed to be the heroes.

1- it happens in JL, JLA, JLA:Vibe, Aquaman, Superman, Superboy, Legion Lost, Firestorm and moe

TT is no more stronger than any of those

2-NOWHERE wasnt sponsor by anyone but harvest

3- Its not like the main characters were any better than Jock, all of them were bland and one-dimensional, even compared to Lodbell's run the characters have more of presense and personality and in case you are going to mention it, for the last time no, Bart turning emo in the last 3 issues for no reason at all doesnt equal character development

Posted by Outside_85

@arnoldoaad:

1. Not my impression. Most of them worry the government which is worried by everything that's not under it's control.

2. Then explain this:

3. That's your view. At least the Titans were in tune with who they were, unlike now where they are just results of Lobdells crappy imagination.

Posted by sethysquare

@Outside_85: alrights. but its not really an uncommon concept i would say. JLA is kinda a response to JL by the government.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Outside_85 said:

@arnoldoaad:

1. Not my impression. Most of them worry the government which is worried by everything that's not under it's control.

2. Then explain this:

3. That's your view. At least the Titans were in tune with who they were, unlike now where they are just results of Lobdells crappy imagination.

1- your impression is wrong

2-being fair i think that was rewrote at some point, the culling was a mess and even Lodbell agrees to that so maybe this was planned as something directed by the government but now it makes no sense if it was

3- ok lets make a fair comparison

Bart

I know you hate Bart as Impulse, but you are alone there, thats who Bart was, instead of turning emo because of events that happen 2-3 years before in Krull's run, what Lodbell did was return to that Impulsive personality and thats much better than what Krull did

Tim

I have seen a ton of people who just plain hate Tim by Lodbell, that the reboot basically broke the character, I dont think its that severe, if you dont like it there is nothing permanent about this

Krull was just bland and had no personality at all, i mean seriously, I cant remember what he was doing in that book

Wondergirl

of all the characters in TT, Cassandra was the most useless character in all the 100 issues, she just move from that capable and smart girl who was the leader of Young Justice to "Conner's Girlfriend" and Krull didnt do absolutely anything to fix that, but no other writer did to be honest, the only thing that did with her was making her quit being the leader of TT officially making her the worst leader in TT history, fact proven, which is amazing cause he even wrote a one-shot with Wondergirl which had absolutely nothing to do with Wondergirl

Now with Lodbell she is more fleshed out, she has more dimensions, a much interesting backstory and she is not just "the girlfriend"

Posted by Outside_85

@arnoldoaad: 1. My impression is my own thank you.

2. It's its been changed in the tpb i honestly wouldn't know since I don't have it.

3.1 Bart, I am not entirely alone, Geoff Johns thought it was a good idea...probably the only one he had. If you like the Impulse personality, np, just dont expect him to ever progress to a higher level.

3.2 Tim, do you think you'll remember what he's been doing in this book?

3.3 Wonder Girl, eh, either she's a complete bitch or someone's bed companion, as far as I am concerned, like Tim, she is a shallow copy of the character she was. I agree that the last vol of TT was not kind to her, but at least Krul had her take responsibility for her tenure.

Posted by Bogey

I'm not to sure to say reason number 5 is set in stone yet since all has been shown about hell was revealed in an era before modern heroes. There's still a chance for Neron and Lord Satanus to make an appearance as one of the rulers of present day hell.