Diversity in the New DCU, or just the Illusion of Diversity

Diversity is something I personally never really particularly cared for in comics

I live in Costa Rica, thats in latin-america, Im obviously from an hispanic background, spanish is my first language, But i never really cared that the heroes that i saw on TV didnt had my same color or background or whatever, i just saw characters not races.

even though I would love to see a hero in DC or Marvel from my homeland, the fact thatsuch hero is ever created is not a huge concern for me, I dont identify myself with a latino hero more than i would with a black or white or asian hero. but thats me. I can still admire Batman and superman without any critique on race just like i can admire Icon or Vixen or Katana.

However I never really care much in general in comics cause I never experience the comic book medium until i was already an adult and i saw comics more like a form of literature but its just not the same for kids.

look at this little advertizement

Its very easy to understand why diversity is important and even necessary in all mediums and specifically in comic books cause as it exists now, Comics are mainly populated by white male characters, and the reason for that is cause its a medium that began and grew in a time where people just plainly didnt really care at all about diversity or hell even stereotypical portrays.

So its important to have a diverse stable of heroes of different backgrounds because readers themselves come from different backgrounds, however i personally dont believe that the race/sex/sexual orientation/religion/etc of a character should on any matter influence for someone to care/dislike more or less about that character, its important the option exist for exactly the same reason, because even if those factors dont matter, its important to have the option, and having more options can bring more possibilities.

With that said this is something its obviously not easy to do, DC has tried to do it for years and we are still in the same situation. always trying to be more diverse because simply the world of DC is not Diverse. I will like to add that Marvel has a similar problem but for this blog i will just focus on DC in the new 52

However with the new 52 DC pushed the envelop to accept more diversity of different genders and created new ongoings staring diverse characters

and the result was and an Absolute Failure!

I might be oversimplifying things but if i had to compliment one of the aspects of it is that it has been very positive in diversity with women and gays, we have several ongoing titles of good quality staring women like Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Birds of Prey, Supergirl, Amethyst(and also World finest and Batgirl but those titles Suck), and that is not even mentioning other great women characters in several other ongoings like Amanda Waller in Suicide Squad and others and ofcourse Batwoman who is also the first lesbian character to star in her own ongoing, and then we have the character of Bunker in Teen Titans and the superboy ongoing.

Not to meant that DC had problems with female characters before, we had some very good ongoings staring females in DC for quite some time but now it feels like the most natural thing in the world to see a female staring a book when in another time it would be a miracle unless the title was Wonder Woman and in the other hand Marvel seems to have a situation where the female push goes in waves

first they put female titles

then they cancel them

then they do it again

then they cancel them

I still remember how big of a deal was for X-23 to get her own ongoing by a great female writer only to be gone at the second year despite getting good reviews and good sales and be cancelled as the last female staring book at Marvel for quite some time, and now once again the wave starts to move up with Sif, Captain Marvel and a new all female Defenders team, which are probably not going to last long

Journey Into Mystery #646

But i digress

It seems being a female doesnt seem to be a problem in DC, but its not the same with Races

Which lead me to the following titles, Omac, Mr Terrific and Static Shock, this 3 titles not only release to foment more diversity in DC, are also titles that got bad sales and were cancelled in the very first wave of cancellations, now i need to mention that there were other books like Voodoo and Blue Beetle also of different races cancelled in the second wave, and of course the new Batwing ongoing is the lowest selling Batman title, but i will just focus on the first 3 titles

Omac

Omac is a surprisingly good comic cause of its Kirby like style in both writing and art, its a book thats was spiritually an 70s book and had an interesting protagonist and a good story. the main problem was that it was something that the public didnt seem to want, after all there is a ton of Gold and silver age books out there to read on, so i guess this cancellation didnt had anything to do with the fact that the protagonist was asian, it begs to mention.

Mr Terrific

I read reviewed the 8 issues of Mr Terrific and you can check them here, but if there is a problem with this book i would say that it was Eric Wallace

Eric Wallace

As you can see from this picture Mr Eric Wallace is black, and he was offered the job to write Mr Terrific, not to say that one has to do with the other one but it feels iffy

lets talk about Wallace for a moment, as far as i know he was the only black writer in DC at the moment of the launch and his resume include working in the TV show Eureka, his first job in DC was writing a Vixen story in a DC Christmas special which then lead them to write Final Crisis Aftermath: Ink, I loved that book, it was just a great story about a man trying to discover he really was, a family man, a husband, a villain, a hero, what?, its just a very good book and his next project was taking the Titans into a new direction, being lead by Deathstroke, his first chp Titans: Villains for Hire Special was Abysmal, one of the worst comics produced by DC in recent years, also was the first comic in being reviewed by a score of 0 STARS in CBRand other bad reviews all over the comic world, and his work in the ongoing Titans wasnt any better, in fact is one of the worst comics i have ever read in my life.

So this guy, who just wrote one of the most critically panned books in DC was being rewarded by the herculean task of relaunching one of the most interesting characters of the JSA.

The result was one of the most boring, preaching and stupid books I have read, though it was better than titans, it was very bad, which quickly reflected in abysmal reviews and sales at the very bottom.

So if DC wanted to launch a book to appeal to the black readers, and to push a black character, then why dont call for the best possible writer for the job?

and if they were looking for a black writer, why dont look for a better one, or more actually, there is not only a disproportion in black characters but also ofcourse in the writers too.

the point is, if Wallace did such a terrible work with Titans, why give him another chance?

Im not trying to say that Mr Wallace was the sole culprit of this and I explored that in my reviews and in fact i have watch interviews of Wallace and he looks like a pretty decent guy and obviously had a lot of good intentions with the book, he mentioned how Mr Terrific being the 3rd smartest man was going to play an important part in the Beginning of the story and that by issue 10-11 we would get to meet the 1st, the 2nd and the 4th smartest man in the world, ofcourse by then the book was already announced to cancelled but what impressed me was the idea that Wallace really saw those first chp as the beginning of something bigger when it had things like this:

and of course, this beautiful line

Powergirl asking if Aleeka's hate is racial induced

SUBTLE

And Finally we get the last of all

Static Shock

The 2nd worst selling title of the new 52 by the time of its cancellation, second only to Men of War #8, which is sad cause the last chp of MoW had Frankenstein in WWII killing nazis and fighting G.I. Robot, and it was totally Awesome.

Static is a character created by Milestone, a company which was founded on the idea of creating more diverse new characters and Static might not be the best of them but its definitely the best known of them, and the sole idea of creating an ongoing title to spearhead the induction of Milestone in the DCU seems good enough

except that the title wasnt good

I think by this point everyone knows the controversial story of Static, how a writer wasnt allowed to write and an artist was allowed to do whatever he wanted while the editor just wanted to push cheap stunts to sell comics, the fight was very public, very loud and both sides presented their arguments.

http://johnrozum.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-i-quit-static-shock.html

http://scottmcdaniel.net/interviews/STATICSHOCK/STATICSHOCK.html

The book of Static Shock is practically unreadable, it has several plots that go absolutely nowhere and comes from nowhere, it wasnt friendly to new readers and it wasnt friendly to old readers, its the biggest failure of DC in the new 52

And the current state of the Milestone properties is put in question at this very moment

Here is the thing, DC has had the Milestone properties for quite sometime and Static is the only character that they have bother to use, the reason might be cause Static had a TV show which was fairly popular, and even good appearances in other TV shows like JLU.

And here FINALLY we get an ongoing of this precious property, the only reason DC is even remotely interesting in Milestone

And they blew it

They blew it big

This was a huge, amazingly beautiful train wreck of epic proportions.

How do you move from that?

MILESTONE

Milestone is a source of great original ideas and for the present day DC seems to have a grab on them

But here are the facts, for better or for worse Milestone Fell, and it never pick itself up, its the reminiscent of an era when a company proactively tried to push diversity by thinking "lets make great characters" not "lets make black/asian/gay/etc characters" and fail to maintain for more than 4 years

However DC instead of having those characters being pushed once again, they seem to be pushed aside

Why?

why is that we see Icon flying around in Young Justice and he cannot afford a title in the new 52, much less a cameo?

the reason is money, if the idea is simply to push diversity they dont really need Milestone for that DC has property and control over several characters that can be used to push diversity, and seeing as how Milestone stop producing comics almost 2 decades ago, what is the point of reviving them to do something they failed at the first time.

DC sees Milestone as a failure, if they couldnt do it when the market was stronger, now would be even a bigger missfire which is the reason they were so careless with Static Shock.

and Yet we have this which lasted longer than static

Here is another enterprise that started in the late 90s, Wildstorm, a company created by Jim Lee, which then he proceed to sell to DC and now we have a bunch of Wildstorm characters running around everywhere

and unlike Milestone, Wildstorm didnt fade away, and now Jim Lee is one of the heads of DC

and including all those characters of Wildstorm we also have Voodoo

The very first Black Female character to get her own ongoing book, thats even on top of any book ever produced by DC. Marvel, Image or even Milestone. thats right, a wildstorm character got there first, which is sad considering that its the first on the almost 80 years of history of comics

The book itself was recently cancelled, the main writer Marz was replaced after just 5 issues and once he left the book took drastic turns, its obvious that DC didnt like what was going on and its cancellation was expected.

And, despite all its problems i actually enjoyed Voodoo more than Static

My point with this is once again, Why bother to use the Milestone characters for diversity when we still have diversity from the Wildstorm characters

Thats the DC mentality. They see Milestone as not those great characters who cost some extra money to produce, but those "diverse" characters who cost some extra money to produce while they can have other "diverse" characters without that extra cost from a new character

CONCLUSION

Why even try to push diversity? If you are not even trying to push diversity?

there is something call creating diversity for diversity's sake, Which is very negative, not only if its done like that but even if its not done as such but if its perceived as such its equally bad

DC needs to create Characters first and then give them color and style, you cannot start backwards

One of the reasons why pushing diversity is so hard is cause most of the famous characters in DC right now are white, and thats cause they always been white, they became Brands and gain fame, we know them as the characters that they were created on for the pop culture, you have no idea how surprised i was to watch the Justice League cartoon when i was young and discover that Green Lantern was now black "for some reason" when the one from superfriends was white, we all already have this set idea of how some characters are and how they act.

Green Lantern 16

so the brands that exist will remain as such, the Green Lantern is a huge exception cause we can have more than one, and in the case of the new one Simon Baz i can see him already as a character without thinking 'oh the arab GL!"

so it all comes down to Sales, the current industry is build in a broken methodology that sells only on bases of Brands and Gimmicks, it doesnt matter if a story is good or not to sell well or not.

so is hard to make a new character who is new and sell well without help even if its the best character in the world.

In febreary we will get 3 titles

JLA which will have a very diverse line up accompany by Johns and Finch and a huge push on sales with 52 variant covers

I have no doubt that it will be a hit in sales but i think it will also have a better chance to be a great title of quality.

But the other 2 titles are

Katana written by Ann Nocenti and Justice League's Vibe cowritten by Geoff Johns

here is my humble prediction, Katana will sell around 25k in the first issue and will go down until it gets cancelled between issues 10-12

Vibe on the other hand will sell around 40k, maybe even 50k and will survive a second year and third year, unless its canned for other reasons

Katana #1

why? because so far the Nocenti "brand" doesnt attract readers, some of her later work in Green Arrow and Catwoman has been from disappointing to just terrible on some cases, but even if she does a good job with this book, she doesnt have the tools to make it sell

Vibe, and this is no way bias to the fact that he is hispanic like me, he will succeed cause he has johns behind it

I dont even care to look up who is the other guy writing it cause he will not matter to ppl,, and the extra factor that it has Justice League at the beginning of the title will bring more readers

Brands and Gimmicks

thats the difference between an Effort, and no effort

in this state of the industry, DC just cannot afford to be diverse, if they want to push diversity, if they really desire it, they will make sure to take the precautions to make a character that works and do whatever it can to make it sell, not just promote diversity but accept it and believe on it

Otherwise, DC will have the same waves that Marvel has with its female titles

JLA Vibe 1

Its either that or give a complete change on how the industry is working

and maybe one day we will get to see an Icon title written by Jeff Lemire, Scott Snyder, or hell maybe even Grant Morrison making a stand for something, and hopefully more creative and diverse writers will come along too

End of Blog Post

Check out my Personal Blog lets-talk-about-comics.blogspot.com

54 Comments
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Posted by colonyofcells

I heard the diversity game is becoming more and more popular both in comics and in the Republican party.

Posted by sethysquare

I wonder why you didnt mention Batwing.

Has it occured to you that it isnt about race but about brands?

I would disagree on Katana. It doesnt mean if online fans doesnt like it, it wont sell.

Batgirl is a great book and despite the online hate, she is selling like hot cakes.

Katana is tied to JLA, BOP and Outsiders. I think that itself would bring in readers. Especially if they are tied to JLA for crossovers.

Posted by Rumble Man

What about non human diversity?

Posted by colonyofcells

Maybe reboot Krypto as a black dog ?

Edited by Twentyfive

Pretty much your OP was right on the money. Such is why in each wave, we see a Batman-related book.

The comics medium is the one that I think will have this problem the longest. It is a darn shame.

Unless some like-minded, forward-thinking individuals make a new company with the intention of fixing it.

Online
Posted by arnoldoaad

@sethysquare said:

I wonder why you didnt mention Batwing.

Has it occured to you that it isnt about race but about brands?

I would disagree on Katana. It doesnt mean if online fans doesnt like it, it wont sell.

Katana is tied to JLA, BOP and Outsiders. I think that itself would bring in readers. Especially if they are tied to JLA for crossovers.

I dont dislike Katana

in fact she is my favorite character in Birds Of Prey, she is a high quality character a very interesting story and the way is portray in the book is just awesome, but it wont sell

my prediction is mostly based on how I see sales working, and based on how it has been going on with the last waves of cancellations and and i dont see the same push put into Katana like its being done with JLA's Vibe, why isnt the title named JLA's Katana?

though i heard that one of the reasons why Vibe got that designation was cause of a copyright problem with a magazine name Vibe, so maybe is nothing

but look for example Sword and Sorcery, ignore the fact that this book is 3.99 the sales for the first 2 issues were really really low, and the book was pretty wel promoted to be alongside JLD, which has moderating sales, Katana is spin off NOT from JLA, but from BoP, if this book had came later, wit some development on Katana in JLA and then spin from that it would had been different

I wonder why you didnt mention Batwing.Has it occured to you that it isnt about race but about brands?

I was gonna but i really felt i wrote more than necessary, however my thoughts on Batwing are that well right now it is the lowest selling Batman book in the market and yet is the highest selling book starting a minority on it.

what does that tell you?

@Rumble Man said:

What about non human diversity?

as in aliens? or as in animals, or both?

@colonyofcells said:

Maybe reboot Krypto as a black dog ?

Isnt Perry White going to be black in the new movie, that was another miss chance

@Twentyfive said:

Pretty much your OP was right on the money. Such is why in each wave, we see a Batman-related book.

The comics medium is the one that I think will have this problem the longest. It is a darn shame.

Unless some like-minded, forward-thinking individuals make a new company with the intention of fixing it.

Obviously that didnt worked for Milestone

I just wish that DC used Milestone and develop it just half as how they are trying to develop Wildstorm

Posted by Rumble Man

@arnoldoaad: every non human

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Rumble Man said:

@arnoldoaad: every non human

i guess this is a problem for Legion of Superheroes, How come every single alien in the universe are white?

how wasnt this rebooted really?

btw zombies count as non-human

Posted by Rumble Man

@arnoldoaad: how come they adhere to humanoid shapes, why is there only one ''race' per every other alien planet (Seems lazy to me)

why must earth be the 'special' planet

Posted by arnoldoaad

@Rumble Man said:

@arnoldoaad: how come they adhere to humanoid shapes, why is there only one ''race' per every other alien planet (Seems lazy to me)

why must earth be the 'special' planet

well maybe this will change with Threshold

I miss R.E.B.E.L.S. thoug, that was LSH done awesome

Posted by Rumble Man

@arnoldoaad: GL does it good with nonhuman diversity

Posted by sethysquare

@arnoldoaad said:

@sethysquare said:

I wonder why you didnt mention Batwing.

Has it occured to you that it isnt about race but about brands?

I would disagree on Katana. It doesnt mean if online fans doesnt like it, it wont sell.

Katana is tied to JLA, BOP and Outsiders. I think that itself would bring in readers. Especially if they are tied to JLA for crossovers.

I dont dislike Katana

in fact she is my favorite character in Birds Of Prey, she is a high quality character a very interesting story and the way is portray in the book is just awesome, but it wont sell

my prediction is mostly based on how I see sales working, and based on how it has been going on with the last waves of cancellations and and i dont see the same push put into Katana like its being done with JLA's Vibe, why isnt the title named JLA's Katana?

though i heard that one of the reasons why Vibe got that designation was cause of a copyright problem with a magazine name Vibe, so maybe is nothing

but look for example Sword and Sorcery, ignore the fact that this book is 3.99 the sales for the first 2 issues were really really low, and the book was pretty wel promoted to be alongside JLD, which has moderating sales, Katana is spin off NOT from JLA, but from BoP, if this book had came later, wit some development on Katana in JLA and then spin from that it would had been different

I wonder why you didnt mention Batwing.Has it occured to you that it isnt about race but about brands?

I was gonna but i really felt i wrote more than necessary, however my thoughts on Batwing are that well right now it is the lowest selling Batman book in the market and yet is the highest selling book starting a minority on it.

what does that tell you?

Saying Katana won't sell is like saying Zatanna won't sell. And look at Zee, she had 16 issues before Flashpoint.

I'm not sayin Katana would be selling as well as Batgirl, I'm just saying, she has a chance for a moderate run. Why?

Katana is spin off NOT from JLA

Obviously what you're saying is not true. The solicits says otherwise.

• From the pages of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA and BIRDS OF PREY!

• KATANA is a former assassin on a noble quest to restore the OUTSIDERS to their former glory!

• Will she succeed, or will she be overcome by the power of her sword, the SoulTaker?

So effectively, we're getting 3 whole franchise being tied to this one book. Yes Katana is awesome.

What you said about Sword of Sorcery isn't true as well and not a good comparison.

but look for example Sword and Sorcery, ignore the fact that this book is 3.99 the sales for the first 2 issues were really really low, and the book was pretty wel promoted to be alongside JLD, which has moderating sales, Katana is spin off NOT from JLA, but from BoP, if this book had came later, wit some development on Katana in JLA and then spin from that it would had been different

1. Sword of Sorcery features a character that was being featured in the 90s. She has one solo ongoing in the 80s and that lasted 12 issues. Amethyst is nowhere near the status in terms of exposure, popularity or iconic. Also its 3.99

2. JLD is selling only averagely at only 30k.

3. People who would be interested in the outsiders, birds of prey by Sweirczynski and JLA would likely check this book out for curiousity.

4. If this book were to come out later, it wouldn't have that much of an impact as it debuting beside JLA. JLA is expected to be selling around the numbers JL sold. If thats the case, retailers would definitely increase the orders for both Vibe and Katana and people would also be interested to see how both books tie in with JLA.

I'm gonna even throw it out and say Vibe isn't going to last as long as Katana because he is a very obscure character that people had hardly heard of. If the book sells its only because he debut beside JLA together.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sethysquare said:

Saying Katana won't sell is like saying Zatanna won't sell. And look at Zee, she had 16 issues before Flashpoint.

I'm not sayin Katana would be selling as well as Batgirl, I'm just saying, she has a chance for a moderate run. Why?

Zatanna didnt sell, its actually a miracle that it got to 16 issues, the only reason why it lasted that long is cause it was not gonna be cancel during Flashpoint when no other book was

Katana is spin off NOT from JLA

Obviously what you're saying is not true. The solicits says otherwise.

• From the pages of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA and BIRDS OF PREY!

• KATANA is a former assassin on a noble quest to restore the OUTSIDERS to their former glory!

• Will she succeed, or will she be overcome by the power of her sword, the SoulTaker?

So effectively, we're getting 3 whole franchise being tied to this one book. Yes Katana is awesome.

It says "from the pages of JLA" when the book comes out exactly the same month, and judging by the solicit it basically has nothing to do with JLA either

a real spin off of JLA would had been if JLA had launched and then Katana launch 6 months later

What you said about Sword of Sorcery isn't true as well and not a good comparison.

but look for example Sword and Sorcery, ignore the fact that this book is 3.99 the sales for the first 2 issues were really really low, and the book was pretty wel promoted to be alongside JLD, which has moderating sales, Katana is spin off NOT from JLA, but from BoP, if this book had came later, wit some development on Katana in JLA and then spin from that it would had been different

1. Sword of Sorcery features a character that was being featured in the 90s. She has one solo ongoing in the 80s and that lasted 12 issues. Amethyst is nowhere near the status in terms of exposure, popularity or iconic. Also its 3.99

2. JLD is selling only averagely at only 30k.

3. People who would be interested in the outsiders, birds of prey by Sweirczynski and JLA would likely check this book out for curiousity.

4. If this book were to come out later, it wouldn't have that much of an impact as it debuting beside JLA. JLA is expected to be selling around the numbers JL sold. If thats the case, retailers would definitely increase the orders for both Vibe and Katana and people would also be interested to see how both books tie in with JLA.

I'm gonna even throw it out and say Vibe isn't going to last as long as Katana because he is a very obscure character that people had hardly heard of. If the book sells its only because he debut beside JLA together.

1. you are wrong, Amethyst had 3 series in the 80s, the first one was a miniseries that lasted 12 issues, and an annual that launched the actual series that lasted for 16 issues and then in the 86' a one-shot special and a 4 issue mini, compare that with Katana who never ever had a series before. and consider that even for a character from the 80s, she actually has a place in the memory of many, and in terms of exposure and popularity i think its equal to Katana, as for Iconic i have no idea what you mean by that

2. Birds of Prey is selling lower

3. honestly how many ppl do you think that translate to in sales, and how many ppl do you think are NOT going to pick the book because its written by Nocenti since a lackluster run in GA and a catwoman that doesnt look better at all

4. Actually I will agree with this one, i think it does bring out a bigger impact in entrance but not necessarily will translate well in sales, I will say this, if Katana sells over 30k in 3 months from now i will give you the reason

However its never going to outsell Vibe, and the sole reason why Vibe will sell well is cause it has Geoff Johns behind it

Brands not only translate to characters, also writers and artists

Posted by sethysquare

@arnoldoaad said:

@sethysquare said:

Saying Katana won't sell is like saying Zatanna won't sell. And look at Zee, she had 16 issues before Flashpoint.

I'm not sayin Katana would be selling as well as Batgirl, I'm just saying, she has a chance for a moderate run. Why?

Zatanna didnt sell, its actually a miracle that it got to 16 issues, the only reason why it lasted that long is cause it was not gonna be cancel during Flashpoint when no other book was

Katana is spin off NOT from JLA

Obviously what you're saying is not true. The solicits says otherwise.

• From the pages of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA and BIRDS OF PREY!

• KATANA is a former assassin on a noble quest to restore the OUTSIDERS to their former glory!

• Will she succeed, or will she be overcome by the power of her sword, the SoulTaker?

So effectively, we're getting 3 whole franchise being tied to this one book. Yes Katana is awesome.

It says "from the pages of JLA" when the book comes out exactly the same month, and judging by the solicit it basically has nothing to do with JLA either

a real spin off of JLA would had been if JLA had launched and then Katana launch 6 months later

What you said about Sword of Sorcery isn't true as well and not a good comparison.

but look for example Sword and Sorcery, ignore the fact that this book is 3.99 the sales for the first 2 issues were really really low, and the book was pretty wel promoted to be alongside JLD, which has moderating sales, Katana is spin off NOT from JLA, but from BoP, if this book had came later, wit some development on Katana in JLA and then spin from that it would had been different

1. Sword of Sorcery features a character that was being featured in the 90s. She has one solo ongoing in the 80s and that lasted 12 issues. Amethyst is nowhere near the status in terms of exposure, popularity or iconic. Also its 3.99

2. JLD is selling only averagely at only 30k.

3. People who would be interested in the outsiders, birds of prey by Sweirczynski and JLA would likely check this book out for curiousity.

4. If this book were to come out later, it wouldn't have that much of an impact as it debuting beside JLA. JLA is expected to be selling around the numbers JL sold. If thats the case, retailers would definitely increase the orders for both Vibe and Katana and people would also be interested to see how both books tie in with JLA.

I'm gonna even throw it out and say Vibe isn't going to last as long as Katana because he is a very obscure character that people had hardly heard of. If the book sells its only because he debut beside JLA together.

1. you are wrong, Amethyst had 3 series in the 80s, the first one was a miniseries that lasted 12 issues, and an annual that launched the actual series that lasted for 16 issues and then in the 86' a one-shot special and a 4 issue mini, compare that with Katana who never ever had a series before. and consider that even for a character from the 80s, she actually has a place in the memory of many, and in terms of exposure and popularity i think its equal to Katana, as for Iconic i have no idea what you mean by that

2. Birds of Prey is selling lower

3. honestly how many ppl do you think that translate to in sales, and how many ppl do you think are NOT going to pick the book because its written by Nocenti since a lackluster run in GA and a catwoman that doesnt look better at all

4. Actually I will agree with this one, i think it does bring out a bigger impact in entrance but not necessarily will translate well in sales, I will say this, if Katana sells over 30k in 3 months from now i will give you the reason

However its never going to outsell Vibe, and the sole reason why Vibe will sell well is cause it has Geoff Johns behind it

Brands not only translate to characters, also writers and artists

1. Yes you are right. Amethyst had 3 series, but Katana had much more exposure than Amethyst. She has been a staple in the outsiders, she appeared in brave and the bold, she is also going to be a staple in beware the batman.

2. JLA is selling high or would be expected to sell high

3. Well, most of the people who complained about nocenti are online posters. ever since she took over, i hardly seen a sales direction that indicates that people detest her. If online posters votes are so important then secret six would not be cancelled and superman/batman would've been selling so bad, it should be ashamed of themselves. But apparently, you're mistaken,

4. Nah, Vibe has not been around for so many years, he is never going to beat Katana in terms of sales. Even if Geoff Johns is co-writing it, it wouldnt matter. Katana would have all the outsiders, BOP and JLA fans buying them.

But I'll reiterate what i'll say, this is the best opportunity for Katanna and Vibe to release a solo, if not for JLA, it would've probably never get a chance to survive a solo and so I'm glad that DC is giving both of them a chance. Even though I'm more likely to pick up Katanna than Vibe who no one really cares about.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sethysquare said:

@arnoldoaad said:

1. Yes you are right. Amethyst had 3 series, but Katana had much more exposure than Amethyst. She has been a staple in the outsiders, she appeared in brave and the bold, she is also going to be a staple in beware the batman.

2. JLA is selling high or would be expected to sell high

3. Well, most of the people who complained about nocenti are online posters. ever since she took over, i hardly seen a sales direction that indicates that people detest her. If online posters votes are so important then secret six would not be cancelled and superman/batman would've been selling so bad, it should be ashamed of themselves. But apparently, you're mistaken,

4. Nah, Vibe has not been around for so many years, he is never going to beat Katana in terms of sales. Even if Geoff Johns is co-writing it, it wouldnt matter. Katana would have all the outsiders, BOP and JLA fans buying them.

But I'll reiterate what i'll say, this is the best opportunity for Katanna and Vibe to release a solo, if not for JLA, it would've probably never get a chance to survive a solo and so I'm glad that DC is giving both of them a chance. Even though I'm more likely to pick up Katanna than Vibe who no one really cares about.

first of all i need to tell you that this is turning into an interesting discussion which is what im aiming at in this kind of threads so thanks for that

1. well Amethyst is also getting a short in DC Nation and the Katana in Brave was barely similar to any version, she was a mute Japanese schoolgirl with a sword, but anyways she never had any solo focus, and even if she is appearing in beware, and no doubt is a reason why she is getting an ongoing, but Beware its still not out yet.

I guess my point is that you can argue that Katana has been longer in the exosure thanks to Outsiders, but she never had focus on herself, while with amethyst, yeah she had a long run almost 30 years ago, but she was the main focus of that run and she is still known to this day, enough to grab attention from DC to make a short, but its not something that we can just measure to say "this one had more", because they had different kinds of exposure

2. Hawkman is going to be in JLA, do you actually expect it to increase sales when JLA comes out? if the ongoing of Katana has nothing to do with JLA, why would a JLA fan pick it up?

Its the same argument of why is that Batwing is selling so poorly when its a spin off of Batman Inc.

Its just hard to connect Katana with JLA when both are released at the same time

3.I will not talk about sales on this, but i wouldn't diminish the perception of a writer even if its online, there will still be ppl who try the first issues but will drop if they dont note a change in what they perceive as a change in the writing, and others wont even try, its the same logic of why Liefeld makes ppl drop a book, some writers attract readers on name alone and others reject them

4. cause obviously Aquaman got into the top 10 of sells cause all of the Aquaman fans and nothing to do with Johns?

even if Im wrong with Katana's sales Vibe will definitely oversell it

Posted by sethysquare

@arnoldoaad said:

first of all i need to tell you that this is turning into an interesting discussion which is what im aiming at in this kind of threads so thanks for that

1. well Amethyst is also getting a short in DC Nation and the Katana in Brave was barely similar to any version, she was a mute Japanese schoolgirl with a sword, but anyways she never had any solo focus, and even if she is appearing in beware, and no doubt is a reason why she is getting an ongoing, but Beware its still not out yet.

I guess my point is that you can argue that Katana has been longer in the exosure thanks to Outsiders, but she never had focus on herself, while with amethyst, yeah she had a long run almost 30 years ago, but she was the main focus of that run and she is still known to this day, enough to grab attention from DC to make a short, but its not something that we can just measure to say "this one had more", because they had different kinds of exposure

2. Hawkman is going to be in JLA, do you actually expect it to increase sales when JLA comes out? if the ongoing of Katana has nothing to do with JLA, why would a JLA fan pick it up?

Its the same argument of why is that Batwing is selling so poorly when its a spin off of Batman Inc.

Its just hard to connect Katana with JLA when both are released at the same time

3.I will not talk about sales on this, but i wouldn't diminish the perception of a writer even if its online, there will still be ppl who try the first issues but will drop if they dont note a change in what they perceive as a change in the writing, and others wont even try, its the same logic of why Liefeld makes ppl drop a book, some writers attract readers on name alone and others reject them

4. cause obviously Aquaman got into the top 10 of sells cause all of the Aquaman fans and nothing to do with Johns?

even if Im wrong with Katana's sales Vibe will definitely oversell it

Thanks, my post are usually with regards to the topic on hand and not particularly to any single poster.

1. Amethyst had a solo for a total of 2 years and then left in the limbo. That was hardly a long run. Nothing against Amethyst, I think she is a great character and the fact that she has a solo ongoing shows that she is an interesting enough character to warrant such an honour. With all the gem world and transformation, she would be perfect for an animated short or solo series. But really, Amethyst isn't anywhere near the status of Katana.

if the ongoing of Katana has nothing to do with JLA, why would a JLA fan pick it up?

2. Hawkman is basically a goner, he won't be tied into JLA in anyway from the solicits, so I hardly doubt theres going to be an increase in sales. What I don't get is that I pointed out to you several times that Katana is going to tie into JLA from the solicits. Are you doubting the solicits? That perhaps its just a scam to trick people?

3. Liefeld got about 2000 more people to buy deathstroke in the first issue he took over. Despite the rabid online hate, me including.

4. Aquaman is a Justice League staple, he was featured in a year long crossover, he was written by a superstar writer and drawn by a superstar artist, he was boosted by the initial boost of the new 52 and the story was so unexpectedly good that it didn't shed as much readers as the other books that were selling around the same numbers as him.

Compared to Vibe who is written by a regular writer and artist and would be co written by a superstar artist for 1 issue.

I'll like to reiterate that I have nothing against vibe. I just don't see him selling more than Katanna, sure, I could be wrong, but as of now, I think Katana stand a high chance of doing moderately well.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sethysquare said:

Thanks, my post are usually with regards to the topic on hand and not particularly to any single poster.

1. Amethyst had a solo for a total of 2 years and then left in the limbo. That was hardly a long run. Nothing against Amethyst, I think she is a great character and the fact that she has a solo ongoing shows that she is an interesting enough character to warrant such an honour. With all the gem world and transformation, she would be perfect for an animated short or solo series. But really, Amethyst isn't anywhere near the status of Katana.

2. Hawkman is basically a goner, he won't be tied into JLA in anyway from the solicits, so I hardly doubt theres going to be an increase in sales. What I don't get is that I pointed out to you several times that Katana is going to tie into JLA from the solicits. Are you doubting the solicits? That perhaps its just a scam to trick people?

3. Liefeld got about 2000 more people to buy deathstroke in the first issue he took over. Despite the rabid online hate, me including.

4. Aquaman is a Justice League staple, he was featured in a year long crossover, he was written by a superstar writer and drawn by a superstar artist, he was boosted by the initial boost of the new 52 and the story was so unexpectedly good that it didn't shed as much readers as the other books that were selling around the same numbers as him.

Compared to Vibe who is written by a regular writer and artist and would be co written by a superstar artist for 1 issue.

I'll like to reiterate that I have nothing against vibe. I just don't see him selling more than Katanna, sure, I could be wrong, but as of now, I think Katana stand a high chance of doing moderately well.

1. what Amethyst had is still longer than what Katana has had alone

Are you doubting the solicits?

2. Because the solicits are 100% correct 100% of the time?, but really it only says "coming out of JLA" which doesnt mean anything really, it also says that its coming out of BoP but i doubt both are related in plot on any ways

from what i heard from Nocenti's interview in Newsarama, this is going to be more focused directly on Katana, and her past and the clans of Japan, it takes place in Las Vegas if i remember correctly

3. 2000 sales that he lost immediately and it didnt had the same effect in Grifter and Hawkman and in the case of Grifter he accuse his Scott Clark for being responsible of the lost of readers, who did an excellent job as an artist.

anyways having a good initial performance means nothing if you cant keep it up

4. I think Johns its going to be for more than just 1 issue and you just cannot dismiss his impact in the book, just look at what happen with Talon, is written by a relatively new writer and an ok artist about a completely new character and was the best selling title of the 3rd wave, dont you think the fact that Snyder co-wrote it influenced on anything?

If we look at nocenti's track record, she will reject more readers than attract them

Posted by lykopis

This was an enjoyable and informing read, a real gem. Very well done and the ensuing discussion matches that sentiment.

Posted by jobbernos

hispanic isnt a race and spanish is a european language.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@jobbernos said:

hispanic isnt a race and spanish is a european language.

...

your point?

Posted by jobbernos

@arnoldoaad: my point is that your wrong and you dont know what you are and you dont know what race even means...

Edited by arnoldoaad

@jobbernos:

not the point I was trying to make but i will change it to background instead of race if that makes you feel better, which is funny cause i had it as latino and change it to hispanic to begin with, i just dont see much of a difference anyways, I was just explaining how im not Caucasian and i have no problem with heroes being Caucasian

however the rest of your comment is kind of insulting

Edited by colonyofcells

The theory seems to be that during the ice age, some people crossed a land bridge from asia and became the native peoples in north america, central america and south america. All native peoples in all places tend to evolve a particular skin color that is a balance between to maximize vitamin d creation from sunlight and to minimize cell damage from sunlight. In America, Hispanic is not an accurate term but it is a popular term to refer to the native peoples in part of america that used to be mexico, mexico, central america and south america even though Brazil speaks portuguese. Those of a mixed race or spanish speaking people (white, black or mixed) are also usually lumped together under the term hispanic. Hispanic does tend to be used mainly to identify people of a particular skin color in comparison to those descended from the old white invaders or butchers of America altho its meaning has been expanded to spanish speaking people from mexico, central america and south america.

Posted by jobbernos

@arnoldoaad: latino isnt a race either though. and im sorry for going a little extra in my last comment.

Edited by colonyofcells

My impression here in America is that latino and hispanic are almost synonyms and tend to be applied mainly on people of not white skin colors who speak spanish or portuguese and the classification is also applied to a lesser extent to spanish speaking whites from mexico, central america and south america (who can choose to classify themselves as white if they prefer bec. it is more advantageous to blend in with the American whites). People from Spain are never said to be hispanic or latino.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@jobbernos: the republicans beg to differ

but anyways, thats not the point

Posted by jobbernos

@arnoldoaad: republicans dont know anything they probably think africa is a country.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@jobbernos said:

@arnoldoaad: republicans dont know anything they probably think africa is a country.

it was a joke

but whatever, is pure semantics, my point was that im not a Caucasian, colonyofcells has a lot of good points there

Posted by fodigg

Nice long blog I'll have to dig into more later, but some of the examples pretty obviously failed because they were just bad (e.g., Mister Terrific, Static) or because a creator change-up derailed them (e.g., Voodoo). It's as hard to pin the failure of a book exclusively on the demographics of the lead as it is a book's success.

Posted by jobbernos

@colonyofcells said:

My impression here in America is that latino and hispanic are almost synonyms and tend to be applied mainly on people of not white skin colors who speak spanish or portuguese and the classification is also applied to a lesser extent to spanish speaking whites from mexico, central america and south america (who can choose to classify themselves as white if they prefer bec. it is more advantageous to blend in with the American whites). People from Spain are never said to be hispanic or latino.

look up the definition of hispanic and latino, it means relating to spain or people from spanish speaking countries. thats why the census forms have black hispanic, white hispanic, mestizo, mulatto, and other.

there are manly latino/hispanic people that are white skin look at the famous reggaeton artist daddy yankee. then you got the dark skin hispanic/latinos like tego calderon.

hispanic and latino isnt about color its about language, culture, origins.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@fodigg said:

Nice long blog I'll have to dig into more later, but some of the examples pretty obviously failed because they were just bad (e.g., Mister Terrific, Static) or because a creator change-up derailed them (e.g., Voodoo). It's as hard to pin the failure of a book exclusively on the demographics of the lead as it is a book's success.

Thats a very good point and im completely aware of that, I actually reviewed bia blog all the Mr Terrific ongoing (please check it ;) ) so i know exactly how terrible that title is

but one little thing is that those titles actually started lower on sales than everyone else, if they fall quicker than before it was because the quality didnt let the ppl stay but thats besides the point

how come Mr Terrific, Static, and Voodoo started so low than before if ppl didnt know they were going to suck or not?

it just comes down to something i said in my most recent blog, that readers and more specifically Comic Shop Owners rotate more closely to iconic brands, and there are no iconi brands that arent white because all of them started in a time where the comic creators were white and didnt really care to write about a black/asian/latino character, etc

so to summarize, ppl didnt really care about static, mr terrific and voodoo, cause the common reader has no idea who this ppl are, they arent recognizable

and the fact that the titles were so freaking bad was because DC didnt really thought they were going to be successful, and the gigantic failure of Static is evidence of that, they got him cause he was the "most recognizable" Milestone character and then let his title Fail like it did, and so publicly, it just shows a lack of commitment

and this sentiment ends up becoming this set of "waves" of diversity, because DC wants to have a diverse stable of characters, but they dont know how to make it stick, and they cannot present it in an organic way cause there is no minority character that is iconic or recognizable, Thats why Cyborg is in the JL, cause he is for better or worst the most recognizable black man in DC, its not Black Lighting, the first black superhero on DC because most ppl dont know who he is and that guy "Black Vulcan" from the superfriends show, that was suppouse to be Black Lighting but the producers didnt want to pay royalties to the creator of BL, who owned and still owns the character, so they made pretty much exactly the same character but change the name

Its just a very interesting topic to be honest

Edited by colonyofcells

I know how the terms hispanic and latino are used in America by the white people and popular usage is what matters and not arbitrary definitions that have no practical application. I participated in the last census and the main divide is between the usual whites and others. Others can be hispanics who can speak spanish or portuguese. Hispanics can be black hispanics, white hispanics, or various shades of colors between white and black. White hispanics have a choice to be classified with the usual whites or by emphsizing that they are white who speak spanish or portuguese, the white hispanics can also choose to classify themselves as hispanics rather than the usual whites (who are associated with the later white invaders who came to america for religious freedom and/or money). White hispanics who don't emphasize their spanish language can blend in with the usual whites and experience less discrimination. In america, the usual whites can also discriminate against other whites who come from poorer countries such as whites from eastern europe or whites from south america and it is more advantageous not to emphasize country of origin or knowledge of the spanish language and just blend in with the usual whites. A white from Spain can just say they are white and experience no discrimination at all in America bec. there is less discrimination against a richer country of origin like Spain. A rich white (or mixed race) spanish speaker from south america might also escape discrimination in America.

Posted by sgcomicguy

So exactly do you feel about Cyborg being in the Justice League?

I ask because when I saw it looked like such a blatant sales grab for minority readers it was almost insulting. Cyborg is an interesting characrater with years of comic book history, but DC through all of that away by putting him on the Justice League and forgetting the Teen Titans ever happened. Every time I read JL he just feels out of place, maybe because of past associations but also his age and the level of respect he holds. Every other member of the JL has their own separate title (if not more). This, to me, has always made the Justice League special, it's a collection heroes/characters who are interesting/popular enough to hold up a series by themselves, and when they come together it is all the more interesting. But DC didn't give Cyborg his own series, because they don't respect his character enough. It is sad to say be I feel like he is just filling some sort of imaginary quota made by DC that says "we need at least one minority and one female character on the flagship team".

Now lets say this works. Lets say people love the new Cyborg and DC begins to have more of a diversity in their readers. Then what? If I like Batman or Superman I can pick up a Batman or Superman comic (or Detective Comics or Action Comics) and read more about my favorite character. But that's not the case here. There's no Cyborg comic for anyone to sign on to if they like him. This is not a push for Cyborg, he is merely filling a quota. In JL#12 we find out that Cyborg never really leaves the watchtower he just stays there by himself. He has not personal life In the way Clark has Lois and any really depth to his character- and I can see why. The only comic book he's in he has to share with 6 other members- each much more popular and iconic than he is. Right now he's just the team's sidekick, he's younger and he doesn't exist outside this comic and he's there but he's not why you bought the comic .

Now if they had put Mr.Terrific on the team, with his own ongoing series at the same time (for arguments sake lets pretend his series didn't suck) then I could believe it was a push. Because I could read his comic outside of the Justice League and enjoy the character in more depth. I could get a sense of his personality and it could even lead to a crossover somewhere down the line (like Aquaman is getting starting in JL#15) and that could boost sales for the solo title. But DC did not take this route, they just did the minimum so they can say 'oh look at how diverse we are'- and I'm not buying it!

Posted by colonyofcells

Michael Holt almost made it to the Justice league but it seems the dc architects saw the poor sales and just sent Michael Holt away to earth 2 instead. I don't believe Michael Holt has a place in JL bec. Batman is smarter than everyone always as per dc policy. A solo Cyborg title probably will show up in the next wave.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sgcomicguy said:

So exactly do you feel about Cyborg being in the Justice League?

I ask because when I saw it looked like such a blatant sales grab for minority readers it was almost insulting. Cyborg is an interesting characrater with years of comic book history, but DC through all of that away by putting him on the Justice League and forgetting the Teen Titans ever happened. Every time I read JL he just feels out of place, maybe because of past associations but also his age and the level of respect he holds. Every other member of the JL has their own separate title (if not more). This, to me, has always made the Justice League special, it's a collection heroes/characters who are interesting/popular enough to hold up a series by themselves, and when they come together it is all the more interesting. But DC didn't give Cyborg his own series, because they don't respect his character enough. It is sad to say be I feel like he is just filling some sort of imaginary quota made by DC that says "we need at least one minority and one female character on the flagship team".

Now lets say this works. Lets say people love the new Cyborg and DC begins to have more of a diversity in their readers. Then what? If I like Batman or Superman I can pick up a Batman or Superman comic (or Detective Comics or Action Comics) and read more about my favorite character. But that's not the case here. There's no Cyborg comic for anyone to sign on to if they like him. This is not a push for Cyborg, he is merely filling a quota. In JL#12 we find out that Cyborg never really leaves the watchtower he just stays there by himself. He has not personal life In the way Clark has Lois and any really depth to his character- and I can see why. The only comic book he's in he has to share with 6 other members- each much more popular and iconic than he is. Right now he's just the team's sidekick, he's younger and he doesn't exist outside this comic and he's there but he's not why you bought the comic .

In retrospect I should have talk about Cyborg on this blog but it just completely went over my head at the time

This are my thoughts on this matter

Why is Cyborg on the JL?

The answer is so simple and the same time wrong from any perspective

The reason why Cyborg is here is cause he is the most successful Black Character in DC, hell possibly the entire comic industry at this moment if you ignore things like Invincible or Ultimate Spiderman who are taking over other roles from white folks, he is just the biggest Black Icon that doesnt dilute from another source, like for example John Steward just being another GL, the sad part is that he is most recognized because of the Titans, not because of himself as a character, and despite being fairly original the new Cyborg now has his powers coming out of a motherbox from Kirby's 4rt World, how sad is that?

and if you look at JLA, its exactly the same argument for Katana, who is the most recognizable Asian character in DC? It is Katana, the same for Vibe if you eliminate Blue Bettle as a legacy character, and i just know that In the next 5-10 years Baz is going to be the Arab icon for DC,

It is obvious that they are token characters and like I said Anything is perceive, doesnt matter if it is or not, but if its only perceive as Diversity for the sake of diversity then it tends to fail

but here is the thing, it is difficult to break an icon, and an all white JL, thats an icon, for better or for worst and i see nothing wrong with them trying to make it go away, the only problem is that it has been tried to be done, again and again and again and it just keeps failing.

I really wonder if Cyborg is going to be able to make it in the JL movie

Now if they had put Mr.Terrific on the team, with his own ongoing series at the same time (for arguments sake lets pretend his series didn't suck) then I could believe it was a push. Because I could read his comic outside of the Justice League and enjoy the character in more depth. I could get a sense of his personality and it could even lead to a crossover somewhere down the line (like Aquaman is getting starting in JL#15) and that could boost sales for the solo title. But DC did not take this route, they just did the minimum so they can say 'oh look at how diverse we are'- and I'm not buying it!

@colonyofcells said:

Michael Holt almost made it to the Justice league but it seems the dc architects saw the poor sales and just sent Michael Holt away to earth 2 instead. I don't believe Michael Holt has a place in JL bec. Batman is smarter than everyone always as per dc policy. A solo Cyborg title probably will show up in the next wave.

Regarding Mr Terrific, DC didnt wanted this to succeed, they just didnt, if they actually had the real desire to make Mr Terrific a hit then they would had been look for a writer with the talent to write him up instead of just choosing the first black writer that fall on their lap.

NOW, if he had been successful, he probably would had end up in JLA, and i see nothing wrong with that, but he didnt

Edited by sgcomicguy

@arnoldoaad: I forgot to say- yes I agree with you in regards to Mr.Terrific which you also talked about initially ion your first post. They didn't want the character to be good, they just wanted him to be black. Which sad. As far as Cyborg being the most popular, yes that is true if we don't count John Stewart (who gained fame with the Justice League cartoon), but like you said we know him more as a Titan than his own character and now they've gotten rid of the Titans. I feel the real problem is that these characters haven't been taken seriously until now. All the other members on the team have at least 50 years of being heroes with their own titles and being in the Justice League (made 1960). Had these characters received a pushwhen they were first made this wouldn't be an issue. No new character black, white or any ethnicity, will have an easy time breaking into that world. Characters like John Stewart and Wally West had it a bot easier because they could just piggy-back off an established name along with it's credibility. I don't feel there is any quick fix solution. I like new characters moving up in the ranks of recognition but they have to earn it.If they had some like Johns writing Cyborg and he got attention and then he got the pushthen that would be better. but the closest we got was a 4-issue flashpoint.It's why I'm looking forward to 'Vibe'.

What I mean it is you shouldn't become popular because your on the Justice League, you should be on the Justice League because you're popular.

I hope they do give him his own series that would be interesting. Perhaps another sidepiece for Johns (although that may be too many projects for him). Who would you like writing/ drawing?

Posted by colonyofcells

Maybe George Perez is free to do a cyborg title. Maybe if Cyborg changes his name to Batcyborg, he can get his own title soon.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: I forgot to say- yes I agree with you in regards to Mr.Terrific which you also talked about initially ion your first post. They didn't want the character to be good, they just wanted him to be black. Which sad. As far as Cyborg being the most popular, yes that is true if we don't count John Stewart (who gained fame with the Justice League cartoon), but like you said we know him more as a Titan than his own character and now they've gotten rid of the Titans. I feel the real problem is that these characters haven't been taken seriously until now. All the other members on the team have at least 50 years of being heroes with their own titles and being in the Justice League (made 1960). Had these characters received a push when they were first made this wouldn't be an issue.

Lol, thats pretty much the point of the entire blog, there are no Icons that arent Black or Asian or anything non-white,

The people behind comicbooks when the Golden Age was starting just didnt care at all to make a superhero that was black or asian, mainly cause the social liberties movement wouldnt come until almost 2 decades later and the US was in War with Japan

for the comicbook history

the Iconic Black man was this

and the Iconic Asian was this

No new character black, white or any ethnicity, will have an easy time breaking into that world. Characters like John Stewart and Wally West had it a bot easier because they could just piggy-back off an established name along with it's credibility. I don't feel there is any quick fix solution. I like new characters moving up in the ranks of recognition but they have to earn it.If they had some like Johns writing Cyborg and he got attention and then he got the pushthen that would be better. but the closest we got was a 4-issue flashpoint.It's why I'm looking forward to 'Vibe'.

What I mean it is you shouldn't become popular because your on the Justice League, you should be on the Justice League because you're popular.

It begs the question

was Martian Manhunter ever popular?

I didnt even knew he existed before the JL cartoon

A comic like JL or JLA has had a ton of incarnations i dont see something restricting a character to not be part of that team just cause he doesnt have an ongoing, some characters just cant support and ongoing on their own, doesnt mean that they are bad characters though

Posted by sgcomicguy

@arnoldoaad: I got that I was agreeing with you buddy.

Personally I see the new JLA line up (different from JL in case anyone else is wondering), is kinda like the farm team. They're all kinda B-listers. If JL has a spot open on they're roster they may call someone up from the minor leagues. Now with that said each one of the JLA is interesting (or can be) in their own respect. With Johns writing for JLA's Green Lantern and now Vibe I see this sereis being pretty good, but lets face it this will not be DC's 'go-to team'.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: I got that I was agreeing with you buddy.

Personally I see the new JLA line up (different from JL in case anyone else is wondering), is kinda like the farm team. They're all kinda B-listers. If JL has a spot open on they're roster they may call someone up from the minor leagues. Now with that said each one of the JLA is interesting (or can be) in their own respect. With Johns writing for JLA's Green Lantern and now Vibe I see this sereis being pretty good, but lets face it this will not be DC's 'go-to team'.

I dont think that is a fair assetment, look for example Bendis's New Avengers, it was by no means an A-team but i really enjoyed it way more than the regular Avengers, so I do think JLA has potential

Posted by Twentyfive

@sgcomicguy: Too true, man. This is just saddening, too. But at least to some extent, they are trying to keep their promise of diversity with Vibe and Katana. I wish they handled Static better because everybody knows him. He would have brought in sales. He is perhaps the most interesting minority character they have. He was certainly interesting enough to have his own cartoon...

Oh, well.

They have to hurry up and put Ryan Choi on JL.

Online
Posted by sgcomicguy

@Twentyfive: Good point about static- he was a huge name and had his own cartoon show with JLU and Batman crossovers. They really dropped the ball with him.

@arnoldoaad: Yes they have potential but they'll never be DC's 'go-to' team, they will never be as big, even if their story is better. I'm just looking at it realistically casual comic readers and those who just watch the TV shows and the movie will think of the JL before the JLA.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@sgcomicguy: I think is way too soon to make a judgement like that at his point

I honestly thought that JL:GL had the potential to be better than JL with JLI until the reboot pretty much destroyed the entire premise

Posted by sgcomicguy

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/captain13/why-it-would-be-a-great-idea-to-give-cyborg-an-ongoing-series/87-83656/

Posted by roboadmiral

The thing that tends to be overlooked is that you can't just say "let there be more minority characters" and they just pop into existence. They're not on the far side of some door, locked out. They have to be thought up, crafted, and created just like every other character. Most importantly, the primary concern should be that the character is interesting and well written, not their gender, ethnicity, etc. If a creator wants to create a character that represents a given demographic they should be free to do so, but I don't think it's fair to demand that they do it. The only demand should be quality.

The OP posted an advertisement where a little black boy looks into a mirror and sees Superman. This is treated as though it is somehow offensive or wrong just because a minority child is shown admiring and desiring to emulate a white character. The child's admiration of Superman has nothing to do with race; it comes from the fact that Superman is a heroic figure worth admiring. It shouldn't matter whether that little boy's favorite superhero is white, black, or otherwise; I'm just glad that he's chosen to make a superhero his role model.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@roboadmiral said:

The thing that tends to be overlooked is that you can't just say "let there be more minority characters" and they just pop into existence. They're not on the far side of some door, locked out. They have to be thought up, crafted, and created just like every other character. Most importantly, the primary concern should be that the character is interesting and well written, not their gender, ethnicity, etc. If a creator wants to create a character that represents a given demographic they should be free to do so, but I don't think it's fair to demand that they do it. The only demand should be quality.

the problem is that such characters just never stick and the reason for that is not only because of the quality but because there is no willingness from the general public and therfore the LSCs to follow a character who isnt white and it always has been like this since the golden age

The OP posted an advertisement where a little black boy looks into a mirror and sees Superman. This is treated as though it is somehow offensive or wrong just because a minority child is shown admiring and desiring to emulate a white character. The child's admiration of Superman has nothing to do with race; it comes from the fact that Superman is a heroic figure worth admiring. It shouldn't matter whether that little boy's favorite superhero is white, black, or otherwise; I'm just glad that he's chosen to make a superhero his role model.

I agree, the race of the character shouldnt matter on whatever one likes or not a character but the point of the advertizement is that everyone specially kids should have some one like them to look up to.

Posted by creole

DC Comic only gave Vixen a 5 book issuse, and that was the only black female at the time along with Marvel's Storm issuses?

Posted by arnoldoaad

@creole said:

DC Comic only gave Vixen a 5 book issuse, and that was the only black female at the time along with Marvel's Storm issuses?

I think there is a confusion there, Vixen did had a 5 issue mini, but that was recent 08-09

as for her being the only Black heroine in DC and Storm being the one of Marvel, im not sure if that is correct or not i do know that Vixen was going to have her own ongoing during the DC explosion of the 80s but it never happen because of the DC implosion

Posted by creole

@arnoldoaad: well i was just adding my 2 cent to the conversion, yeah i know vixen was a few years ago. but her and strom was the only two black female comics that i notice and Halle Berry Catwoman: the movie comic books/novels.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@creole said:

@arnoldoaad: well i was just adding my 2 cent to the conversion, yeah i know vixen was a few years ago. but her and strom was the only two black female comics that i notice and Halle Berry Catwoman: the movie comic books/novels.

well that would be only considering the big 2, if you include stuff from Image and wildstorm the number is bigger

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