Ancient_0f_Days

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#1  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@jashro44 said:

@ancient_0f_days said:

@jashro44: He has kicked a bull robot in the chin to noticeable effect and has taken physical hits from the Ultrabots, having a Yeti slam his face down a mountain as well as take an onslaught from the Guardian among other things...not class 100 of course, but still impressive in comparison, to some degree at least.

Fair enough. He does seem to have some impressive durability from what I remember I just feel the 700 ton sumo body slam gets over played.

It is, but it's at least somewhat reinforced by some of the other durability feats. I mainly don't like that it is the first feat you hear from people regarding Jacks damage soak.

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@jashro44: He has kicked a bull robot in the chin to noticeable effect and has taken physical hits from the Ultrabots, having a Yeti slam his face down a mountain as well as take an onslaught from the Guardian among other things...not class 100 of course, but still impressive in comparison, to some degree at least.

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#3  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@laflux said:

@jashro44:

Jack survived reentry from space with a burned space suit and being crushed by a 700 ton sumo. He's also moved around effortlessly with two ton boulders on his back and blitzed a trained group of bounty hunters before a drop of water could fall from an icicle. I don't think its a stomp, but I do reckon it's his fight to lose......

fixed for accuracy and grammar.

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@frozen said:

@lvenger: Which of Superman's speed feats compare to Captain Marvel's Justice feat?

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#5  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@frozen said:

@ancient_0f_days:

A powerhouse is a being of exceptional power. In the context of Justice - operational on Superman level, the Justice bios state Grundy's strength to rival Superman's. Grundy isn't just strong but then has awful durability - that incarnation would not have been sent to Superman otherwise. It's not 'ambiguous' - it can not be exactly quantified but we already know that these versions were exceptionally powerful. Claiming it is 'ambiguous' does not equate to it being so ambiguous that the feats are literally useless, and that the characters might as well be low level super-humans. This version of Grundy was not at the level that can take on powerhouse teams, but he is certainly not the version that fights Batman in the sewers (e.g. Long Halloween). New Earth Grundy has also jobbed like hell on occasions. Superman was in the midst of fighting Bizzaro, he would have known he was in danger as he was fighting. He was not 'holding back considerably' - otherwise Marvel would have held back to the same extent. Nobody is claiming that this version of Superman is more powerful than New Earth Superman.

Not making the point that the feats are useless...they have some use, but to use them as a measuring stick in this thread does not make for an assuring argument due to a lack of solid evidence regarding feats. Knowing that they stack up to Superman physically to some degree is alright for normal battles since sometimes that's the best they have like Cap and Bizarro for instance, but Cap laying out several characters who stack up to Justice Superman based on a bio and one showing isn't impressive in comparison to some of New Earth Superman's other feats. Superman was in the midst of fighting Bizarro who had ambushed him, then he got blindsided by the rest gradually... knowing you're in danger has nothing to do with knowing you're getting attacked by multiple people and he had no clue Grundy was coming through .... Also what's this about Justice Grundy being so durable? You say that like he has high end feats of durability besides getting his ass handed to him by Captain Marvel...

@frozen said:

@ancient_0f_days:

Read the panel again. It can be quantified. Barry's abilities (of this version) are exactly quantified in the statements and bios of this version. This version of Barry can easily travel the world and even travel through different dimensions, etc.

Again, they were quantified that he's fast enough to travel to different eras (from the back pages of Justice):

Superman and Wonder Woman may tag the Flashes when the Flashes hold back (not the case in Justice) - but it begs me to question, have they ever tagged Flash in this manner?

Yes, this Flash might not be as powerful as the New Earth version, but the clear on-panel text shows him to be capable of performing feats such as dimension travel or being able to travel the world in a heartbeat. Clearly the writers intended for the characters to be powerful, it's not nearly as ambiguous to the extent that the feat is useless.

Furthermore, New Earth Cap raced alongside Wally in Flash #162.

You must have misread or misinterpreted my statement...I am not saying Barry's feats/abilities cannot be quantified as a whole, I'm saying that the speed he and Marvel were traveling at during that specific instance could not be properly quantified making it much less impressive than when Superman or Wonder Woman race, react to or catch Wally when he's out of control. Obviously Barry isn't going fast enough to move into another era or dimension during that encounter with Supes and Cap, neither was Billy. Yes, this version of Barry at his best is probably closer to Wally West than I thought but it is unlikely that he was going his top speed there due to his statements regarding his other off panel feats of speed, however I cannot say the same for Justice Cap who hasn't shown anything faster than that and in that instance has a statement from Superman about having the speed of a god faster than Barry. I doubt that it is being assumed that Cap is either the same speed as Barry or faster based on the "speed of Mercury"(but seeing as he caught up, some may go there) and perhaps Cap is faster than Justice Superman, but what makes this feat any more impressive than Superman moving on Wally's level of speed and even catching him when Wally has better feats than Justice Barry? Same with Wonder Woman? Not saying he's faster than New Earth Superman or Wonder Woman (after all, they both have been gifted with godly speed) but that feat of Marvel catching Barry while impressive, is not uncommon to Superman or some of the other NE JLA nor is it as impressive as what they've done and we don't have the evidence to argue due to the fact that we don't have a clue as to how fast they were actually going.

NE Cap racing Wally is also unimpressive for the same reason making it about as impressive as Wonder Woman racing Wally...

I have other points that I will address later

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@frozen said:

@ancient_0f_days:

The part underlined proves my point. He was comparable, and clearly written to be a more powerful incarnation of the character as he was sent to fight Superman. I do not understand your other point - what do you mean by 'lacks the magic advantage against Marvel'? Regardless whether he has a defense, he's still a powerhouse.

What does being a powerhouse mean exactly? It indicates nothing more than being able to harm Superman to some degree which means little since there are several characters able to harm Superman who you might consider powerhouses, but do not compare to Superman in many or any categories other than strength (not to mention the fact that Grundy has magic on his side making the "powerhouse" claim even more ambiguous). Being comparable is also an ambiguous statement but it was meant to be since we don't know how he stacks up exactly to New Earth Grundy who has taken on Bizarro, Amazo and Etrigan who has batted Superman to the moon. Justice Grundy is comparable because he can harm a Superman...that's it, but is that enough to say he stacks up in any other way, even enough to be a benchmark or a notable powerhouse comparable to Marvel or Supes? Hell no. He along with several other characters are being used as measuring sticks when they have nothing more than one showing to measure from against a Superman who 1. didn't see them coming 2. was holding back considerably and 3. is not as strong, fast or durable as New Earth Superman.

@frozen said:

@ancient_0f_days:

Untrue. Alex Ross specifically writes Captain Marvel to be an exceptional powerhouse and has showcased his power in both Kingdom Come and Justice. Later in that same comic, there is a scene where he catches up to the Flash. It is unquantifiable not nearly to the extent that matters - there are dozens of Superman feats which are used which could be said to be 'unquantifiable'. In fact, that argument could be used for dozens of comic-book movies to say 'we don't know how powerful the villains are'.

I understand that Justice Cap is written to be an exceptional powerhouse, but in comparison to New Earth Superman he is not a match. Catching up to, reacting to, or even racing the Flash is a not an uncommon thing to New Earth Justice Leaguers like Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern.

(Superman throughout his career has had to test himself against Barry and has often tied while Barry was the faster of the two in their last race but thats all pre crisis so I'll leave that alone, since then he's lost to Wally in their first race but has been able to move on a similar level of speed on occasion while Wally was under mind control although we of course know that Wally is indisputably faster. Wonder Woman hasn't raced against Barry to my knowledge but she has caught up to early Wally while he was phasing through buildings and stopped him with her lasso, she's reacted to Wally while he was controlled and raced him as well as caught up to him when he was well on his way to another location. Hal had to battle Professor Zoom who thought he was Barry and did considerably well as well as having to react to a Parallax infected Barry while John managed to react to Wally who'd lost control of his speed)

Cap raced Justice Barry who doesn't come close to Wally at a random level speed. A feat I can say is impressive since it's a Flash, but compared to New Earth Superman, not nearly as impressive as Superman's showings or even Caps own showing against Wally. Yes some of Superman's feats are unquantifiable but at least there's something to measure them by, like when he flew to another country, brought wine and changed his clothes before Lois got in her door and finished saying a word...we have time for that one, Superman has a nanosecond reaction feat that can be quantified, his vega feat can be quantified...like I said not all of them are quantifiable but at least there are a good amount that are, more than enough unlike what Cap has which is barely anything that can be quantified or even argued about how fast he is in comparison with someone with feats.

I'll get to the rest later...

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Why in Gods good name did this not get completed.....I anticipated this thread so badly a year ago....

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#8  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@heraldofganthet said:

@ancient_0f_days:

Fair enough. So..... 50/50 shot. I can live with that. After all, the Dog of War has plenty of other options open to him.

Although I wonder why those two never tangled in the Pre-Flashpoint DCU. Oh, the missed opportunities...

indeed, would've been fun to see.

But also, Eradicator doesn't usually employ TP in battle, like he didn't against Steel and the Olympian.

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#9  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@heraldofganthet said:

@allstarsuperman:

But if a simple touch hurts, and huge attack will be fatal to Orion. Eradicator has overpowered Maxima's TP, what's the mother boxes TP resistance level?

That's impressive. I didn't know that Eradicator overpowered Maxima. That is no small feat. However, Mother Box has powers that we don't even know about yet (not the least of which is the ability to BFR Team 1 to the Horsehead Nebula (as an example). Hmm... I may need to tag in @ancient_0f_days for more info on Mother Box's TP resistance capabilities.

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I think it shielded Steel from a crazy Adam Strange who mind controlled the league, problem is, he had to adjust it to make it a proper telepathic shield. Might not work the same way for Orion

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#10  Edited By Ancient_0f_Days

@dondave said:

@ancient_0f_days I joined a couple of months after you did

My point exactly...

@ancient_0f_days: Pft, ComicStooge ain't all that. I just stalemated the bub a few days ago :)

He's been here for like 5 or more years, tier 5 Vet status, bub ... but I suppose his lack of popularity is related to his low post count despite the fact the his cred has been well earned since he started a while ago