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CitizenBane

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#72 Edited by CitizenBane (20400 posts) - 1 year, 2 months ago - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

I honestly think some of you guys have a funny idea about what a fair fight is. If Punisher got jumped by Bullseye with a gun, but managed to grab his hand and twist it around so that Bullseye got shot in the leg, then proceeded to pummel BE into submission, would people really be claiming, "No, that fight was totally unfair. Bullseye basically shot himself, weakening him so that he couldn't fight back"?

Using an opponent's weapons and abilities against them is a perfectly valid tactic if you're capable of doing so. Darkseid was tactically in a much better position than Superman. He was on his home turf. He knew exactly what the situation was. He was at long range and out of sight, which should optimize the advantage of his Omega Beams, and he got to strike first. Superman outmaneuvered him. Darkseid got to strike second, too. He wound up losing. That's why it's fair. No outside help, prep, powers, weapons, or plot devices for either of them from the point Superman regained his memories. Home turf advantage to Darkseid. First attack to Darkseid, with Darkseid being perfectly healthy when he launched said attack (if either of them were hurt at the start of the fight, it would have been Superman, who had just eaten a couple shots from Orion). Still lost. What's the problem?

If Darkseid really shot his entire wad with his opening salvo, then that just means that it was a failed gambit. It does not detract from Superman's ability to survive/exploit said gambit.

Darkseid also did not say he was "cut off," just "depleted." And no, they aren't the same. We've seen DS completely cutoff from the Omega Force elsewhere, and it drops him down to basically human level attributes, with no special powers whatsoever. DS here still managed to fire his pain beams, still opened a boom tube, and still took hits from Superman without having his head caved in. The only thing his statement really seemed to indicate was that he could not use the Omega Beams again so soon.

""Coulda sworn I've seen all of this before...

I'll answer the part about the weakening first. Just prior to that, Darkseid maneuvers the Omega Beams around a whole bunch of buildings while evading contact with any of them. If he can do that, how was he even hit with his own Omega Beams in the first place? If he can guide them around while they're not even in sight, why was he suddenly incapable of doing anything about them while they were right in front of him? He could have directed them to go upwards and away from him, or around him. It'd be easier for them to avoid him than it would for them to avoid a building. And yet.....he just stands still and yells "NO!". Did he suddenly forget what he could do?

Your analogy about Punisher and Bullseye would probably fit better if it involved Castle shooting at Lester around an obstacle course, only for Bullseye to dodge everything (like he always does), and then all of a sudden, they come face to face. Frank shoots at Lester, again, and instead of dodging it, like he was doing not two minutes ago, Lester just yells "NO!" and stands still as the bullets hit him. Or like Constantine Drakon standing still and yelling "NO!" when Damian Wayne throws a shuriken at his head, despite the fact that he plucks fifty arrows out of the air on a slow day. Or to use an example that actually happened in the comics, it would be like when Zoom made fools out of the JSA, and then stood still and stared as Jesse Quick threw a lead pipe at his head. Did he suddenly forget who he was and what he could do? And would you classify that instance as anything other than a writer not paying attention to what he himself wrote mere pages ago? Sure, on paper they're perfectly valid tactics, provided your opponent just spazzes out while you're at it.

I wasn't using "cut off" in the sense that it was completely gone, merely that he could not rely upon it for the rest of the fight. Darkseid's exact words were that the Omega Force was "spent". Dictionary definition goes:

spent/spent/

Draw from that what conclusions you will. I had judged their fight from the minute Superman touched ground in front of Darkseid. At that point he'd already apparently decided dodging was for sissies and stood still while his Omega Beams hit him, so he was weakened, and the force that powered him was spent. I suppose the position of it being not quite a fair fight makes more sense when it's looked at from that perspective.

Also, are you even sure that the person Superman fought was Darkseid and not Desaad? I have some suspicions about that. In New Gods #15 Darkseid is examining a tableau that represents all the times Desaad has impersonated him, and one of the times that's shown has Superman standing over a staggered Darkseid in a manner reminiscent of the events portrayed in Action Comics #586. Now given that New Gods #15 came out in 1990, and Action Comics #586 came out in 1987, that makes only two instances during those years when Superman and Darkseid have fought. Correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's the only instance that the two have fought where Darkseid lost, and Darkseid stated that that was actually Desaad impersonating him, then it logically follows that Action Comics #586 isn't even a win for Superman, because he was fighting Desaad and not Uxas. Were you aware of this? You seem to --well, police-- every thread with Darkseid in the title, so I'm assuming that someone at some point of time raised this issue. What was your response? It certainly couldn't have been Action Comics #628. Superman lost that fight, and at no point of time in AC 628 was he in a dominating position over Darkseid, which was what the tableau showed. The only time he was in such a position was........Action Comics #586.

Why?

Seriously, I'm always interested in why people actually feel this way. What exactly was your first experience (or first few) with Darkseid that convinced you he "should" be so powerful? You point to a decade of writer's weakening him, but I've already pointed out, his first post-crisis story arc had him suffer a one-on-one loss. I don't think there are actually a lot of other full-blown, all out battles with DS up until Our Worlds at War (Hunter/Prey being one that comes to mind, although that's basically the definition of jobbing, i.e. Jurgens had DS lose pathetically to show how badass DD was), which contains only an arguable win for him, followed by a stalemate, and then another loss in Apokolips Now. Wins which I often see brought up for DS are him one-shotting Orion and Firestorm, and the "bitch slap" in Superman Confidential, but those aren't from even later, in 2007. Then there are a whole bunch of little skirmishes, but often it's not much more than DS giving a shot or taking a shot, then the "fight" stopping in favor of dealing with whatever crisis is at hand (e.g. Cosmic Odyssey, New Gods, OWaW).

Even aside from that, there's also just a ton of bad information on him. Superman/Doomsday only fought avatars. False. Superman is protected by the source. False. The Omega Beams and Omega Effect are different things. False. Darkseid has busted the entire JLA multiple times. False. Darkseid easily tanked shots from Lobo and then disintegrated him. Non-canon (most people don't even know where that scan comes from). Darkseid killed Doomsday, he just resurrected seconds later. Not sure how people get that from what's shown, as opposed to the standard, "OH NO, he's not dead!" villain cliche 101. I've even seen people defend his appearance in the Galactus crossover, claiming that the Omega Effect successfully disintegrated Galactus, but he was restored by the Source moments later. Zero evidence for this at all.

Edit: I forgot to mention the double standards and heavy favoritism. Zod breaks Superman's jaw? He's a Superman level character. Lobo beats him until he can barely stand? Superman level character. Etrigan punches him from the Earth to the Moon? Superman level character. Darkseid gives Superman a bloody lip? Curbstomp for Darkseid.

Superman gives Darkseid a bloody lip? Bad writing.

Seriously, how does that work? There are a handful of instances of DS inflicting what would for virtually any other character be considered superficial damage at best, but when Darkseid does it, it's suddenly a curbstomp. Even if his opponent can still get up and run around just fine or would be more than happy to continue their bout, it's viewed as a curbstomp for Darkseid.

I used to feel basically the same way about Darkseid, but at one point I finally went back and started reading his major appearances in (more or less) chronological order, and began to feel that the idea of his power isn't actually borne out by his feats as clearly as it should be. I brought up Apocalypse before, and I think he's a really good comparison; there are many people who feel it is "ludicrous" that he cannot hold his own with high tier characters like Thor, Gladiator, or Heralds, but when you really look at what he's done, the evidence is ambiguous at the very best.

Why not?

Let's just set aside Superman for a minute and take a look at Darkseid's non-Kryptonian resume. Agogg was powerful enough to easily defeat Orion and Lightray. I mean, it was downright embarrassing, the way he handled them. And Darkseid destroyed him without any effort. Grayven went toe-to-toe with Donna Troy and the GOTU incarnation of Ion at the same time (funnily enough, Ion beat him by sending his own Omega-derivative eye beams back at him. Sort of like Action Comics #586?). Darkseid banished him without any effort. He killed/transmuted/whatever Cyborg Superman with two shots, and it only took two shots because he was recuperating from Doomsday's attack and thus in a weakened state. Once his powers were back at their peak (I believe he even made a statement to that effect), he wasted Henshaw. I know people who say Henshaw was already injured before being turned into a little golden ball, but what aforementioned people ignore is that he was injured by Darkseid. Beating Henshaw with two hits? An exploding planet, the Guardians of the Universe and Parallax at his Final Night levels had worse luck in their encounters with the guy. He essentially incapacitated Firestorm by pulling Stein out of the matrix, and this was just a few issues after Firestorm had fought Orion and won. He was manhandling a version of Eclipso who'd knocked away Black Adam, Hawkgirl and Power Girl with a blast in one of the JSA tie-ins to Day of Vengeance and also empowered Mary Marvel to the point where she could manhandle Kyle Rayner. He fought two Doctor Fates at the same time and they themselves conceded that they couldn't actually beat him on Apokolips (I really don't consider the love-wave thingamajig they fired at him to serve as proof of the contrary, partly because of how incredibly corny it was, and partly because it accomplished roughly nothing). He backhanded Captain Atom and he was down for the rest of the fight.

I'm going to give Orion his own paragraph because next to Superman he's the one who's fought Darkseid the most. Uxas KO'd Orion with one energy attack, and I'm sure Orion's own resume is well known to both of us. Is there any doubt that he's at the very least Superman's equal? They were even stated to be equally matched in Death of the New Gods. Prior to that, the only fights where Orion won against Darkseid were the ones that Darkseid wanted him to win, to suit his own ends. Darkseid even remarked that Orion could not kill him unless he permitted it to happen, but somehow that's just discarded as irrelevant, even though Darkseid's comment that Superman beat him "fairly" in Action Comics #586 should apparently be treated as inviolable gospel. Even Superman's comment inSuperman Confidential #8 that it would be madness to try and fight Darkseid is discarded on the grounds that he was only there to rescue Beautiful Dreamer, despite the fact that he was the one who flew at Darkseid in the first place. It's not like he was just flying idly past and Darkseid slapped him because he's such a big meanie.There's hypocrisy for you. The argument that's always raised for Orion being on Darkseid's level is "He killed Darkseid!". He was supposed to kill Darkseid. Large parts of that story were just one big build-up to Orion finally fulfilling his destiny and killing his father. He was essentially a walking piece of plot at that point. I don't know why anyone takes that little nugget of information into account. Everyone's so eager to jump on the "Darkseid ain't all that" bandwagon that they'll seize upon anything that seemingly knocks him down a peg. To me, it's kind of like when Thor entered the Thorsleep and helped his dreamverse Odin fight Surtur. He killed Surtur at the end of the fight, but that was because Surtur was fated to die at the end of each day's battle and be reborn the next morning to repeat the cycle over and over again. Can Thor actually beat Surtur on his own? Nah. But he killed him in that instance because it was Surtur's destiny to die, just as Orion killed Darkseid because it was Darkseid's destiny to die. And as for the claims that the prophecy was already fulfilled when Darkseid died in the Source........that prophecy was a dictate of the Source, after all. It applied elsewhere in the universe, as the Spectre found out, but would it necessarily have to apply inside the Source as well? Source's house, Source's rules? And Darkseid was banking on coming back to life anyway, so if it was fated that his death in that fight would not be permanent then it wouldn't have fallen under the prophecy's purview. Even a loser like Kalibak was empowered by Darkseid to the point where he could beat Orion.

Coming to Superman himself, I really think this has been expounded on ad nauseam in a number of threads. You've been in several of them. Just a few points: I'm sure there have been hundreds of posts describing what a massive PIS-fest Superman/Batman was, and yet those are the two instances that people quote over and over again. Just to be clear: we're all aware of Jeph Loeb's idea of plausible scenarios are, right? This is the guy who considered it plausible that Rulk could leap at an Elder of the Universe and beat him to death, and punch out the Watcher on his spare time. This is the guy who considered it plausible that Catwoman could humiliate freaking Cheetah, the villain who blitzes Wonder Woman. This is the guy who considered it plausible that Batman could whale on Superman while wearing a tiny kryptonite ring, and yet also lose to Superman in a fight where he was literally shooting kryptonite out the wazoo. After he established that shooting a tiny piece of kryptonite into Superman's heart would leave him virtually incapable of defending himself, he writes an incident where Superman beats the goddamn Kryptonite Batman. With nerve strikes, of all things. People say "it's canon, get over it", and I'm not even going to dignify responses like that. Loeb also made a point of insisting in practically every Kryptonian-related work he wrote that Supergirl was stronger and faster than Superman (she's not, but he thinks so). To that effect, he wrote a story where a morals off Supergirl stomped a team consisting of Martian Manhunter, Flash and Green Lantern, any one of whom could arguably beat her. More of his idiotic writing. And yet, Loeb also wrote a story where an angry Supergirl punched Darkseid in the face and he didn't even notice it. No one ever brings that up before defending Loeb's idea of what Darkseid should be like, do they? I could go on and on, but ok. Setting aside Action Comics #586 for a minute because of the Desaad issue, Superman/Batman#13 is the only actual win that Superman could claim over Darkseid without any kind of suspicion being drawn to it. And that was Superman amped by being almost on the surface of the sun. Loeb's sundipped Superman was moving Warworld through space, so there's that. There's the fight in Apokolips Now where Darkseid surrenders, asks for quarter even, because Superman has blinded him and he can thus no longer employ his Omega Effect. What? Since when has he needed his physical eyes to use the OE? He's disintegrated Kalibak with a touch, created holographic images of himself that could fire the Omega Beams, fired them out of other people's eyes, hell when he was in the Source he was manipulating a giant statue of himself that could fire Omega Beams. He's manipulated the very terrain of Apokolips to form shapes and figures, he could have literally made a stone effigy of himself that fired Omega Beams. Again, did he suddenly forget what he could do? Superman couldn't even beat a horde of Darkseid's shadow demons in Death of the New Gods. He even acknowledged that they defeated him. And yet......nobody brings that up either. I'm curious, what exactly was your first experience (or first few) with Darkseid that convinced you he should be such a chump? Was it before or afterSuperman/Batman?

And I agree 100% with your point about the ton of bad information circulating around about Darkseid. It's just downright awful, is what it is. Why, there are people convinced that Darkseid is such a loser that Batman can draw blood from him with a kick and falling down a flight of stairs can injure him. Just to be clear, in the Torment arc Batman survived a punch from a no morals Superman. And yet, Darkseid got whooped. That is how incompetent Loeb is. He doesn't remember what he wrote a month ago. There are people convinced that Atom and Green Arrow can beat Darkseid based on Rock of Ages, an alternate timeline that shouldn't even be considered canon. Never mind that there's another alternate timeline where the Atom shrunk down to subatomic particle size and thus triggered a miniature nuclear explosion that killed him. He beat that overrated loser Darkseid with it in RoA, so let's consider it valid. Never mind that there's an alternate timeline where Superman was beaten up by Batman and Green Arrow. Never mind that in the same Rock of Ages timeline, Darkseid swatted Wonder Woman and left her to die at the hands of one of his underlings. He was killed by Atom and Green Arrow, and that's the only thing that should be focused on, right? The events of Rock of Ages get tossed around like they're going out of style, but so much as whisper "Great Darkness Saga" and you'll be buried under the calls of "Unnaturally high showing!". There are people who are convinced Darkseid isn't that strong because Batman survived several punches from him. Never mind that Batman himself said Darkseid was toying with him. Let's just crop one panel of Batman taking several hits from Darkseid, and place it alongside another of Superman one-shotting Batman, and then call it a day. There are people who are convinced Batman killed Darkseid by shooting him. I could go on and on about this as well. Hell, if you try to bring up Darkseid defeating the Source as proof of his prep capabilities, there are people who'll say "It was a low showing for the Source". That is the level Darkseid has reached on this site. Anything that goes in his favor, we must find some way to downplay it. Doom pulls the same crap every alternate Tuesday. No one ever claimed it was a low showing for the Beyonder.

Edit: I was under the impression Darkseid killed Doomsday in Hunter/Prey because there was a short bio in Countdown where Doomsday was stated to have resurrected himself "again....and again....and again" and in the background were his fights with Darkseid, Superman and Imperiex. The juxtaposition of the words and the pictures is hardly coincidental.

If the point being made is that Darkseid is overrated on this site, I doubt that. After all, this was where I was acquainted with the term "Jobberseid". And honestly, if Thor was held to the same abysmal standard on this site, then Darkseid curbstomps this match-up because Thor's lost to Rhino and Hulk.""

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I recently revisited an old Thor vs Darkseid thread, read through it a bit. Came across this masterpiece of a post and I read it, reread it and read it one more time. I liked reading it not because the message was "Darkseid beats Thor" cus in the end that wasn't what it was about....I liked it cus I learned something brand new, I thought I knew something about Darkseid, about what people think of him, about how he's come across over the past decade, and the damage done to him by sorry ass, stupid, disgraceful, inconsistent excuses for comic writers like Jeph Loeb. I learned a lot and although the post is over a year old, I want to say thanks for the good read. The style of it, the truth in the message, the history and citation was so on point and I wish I had every comic page to match every reference made so I can see it clearly for myself and show others. Cus although reading that post was awesome, pictures still speak a thousand words, and a little more due to captions and dialog. To put this post next to the conics being referenced would be great for context and direct visual citation, but settling with this work of brilliance will have to do.

CitizenBane, this is the second blog dedicated to a post you made in some random battle thread that has taught me something new about what I thought I knew. As unnecessary as this blog may seem, I just feel the need to keep that year old quote close and give props where it's due, also just need to have an excuse to copy and paste that post somewhere where I can see it without having to go through too many links and all that lol. But man, a year later this still made me rethink what I know and what I've learned since then...and I feel like we all need that once in a while.

when I get to 6900 posts, it's goin down ......

he's fast enough to make it so time stops around him ...

He made a fool out of Superman's nemesis, Mongul ...

He fought beings so fast, that they seem invisible ... as fast as him ....

He can vibrate through things and make them explode ....

He destroyed a speed force tower by running on it .....

He can use an Infinite Mass Punch (IMP) powerful as a punch from Superman that sent Zum, a white martian, into another country ....

He can save thousands of people from a nuclear explosion as it's happening (going back and forth) ....

And ... he can steal your speed ... FOREVER .....

Yeah, I created my own hero ...

Name: Omar Boman

Original Name: Omari (Adio) Bomani / (High Born, Righteous, Warrior)

Alias: Civil Rite

(Civil suggests a minimum of observance of social requirements / ease of approach and friendliness / positive, dignified, sincere, and thoughtful consideration for others / habitual courtesy, arising from a consciousness of one's training and the demands of good manners.)

(Rite suggests a test or obstacle / an accomplishment or badge / an ancient ritual or mystical trial / a final prayer or chant before passing / rite of passage / a mark of mystic authority and/or maturity)

Gender: Male

Height: 6'2"

Weight: 287lb

Age(s): originally - 2050 yrs, currently (post reincarnation) - 34 yrs

Ethnicity: African-American (African-Egyptian)

Birth-Date(s): November 1st, 1013 BC. - Died 1063 AD. - Reincarnated November 1st, 1978 AD.

Birth Place(s): Cairo, Egypt / Dakota City, USA

Power(s): Magic based -

Tier 1 (Street Level)- Hypnotism, Illusions, Super Agility (10 Ft-50 Yards), Super Strength (1-50 Tons), Super Speed (100-500 Mph), Super Durability (Missile Level-Nuke Level), Fighting Skills (Martial Arts Mastery/100-500 Years EXP), Summoning, Healing, Invisibility, Barriers, Energy Blasts (Tank- Busting)

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Teir 2 (High Meta)- Flight, Super Strength (100 Tons-500,000 Tons), Super Speed (Mach 10-Mach 50), Telepathy (City Wide), Fighting Skills (Omni-Earth Style Mastery/1,000-5,000 years EXP), Empathy (City Wide), Energy Blasts (City Busting), Constructs, Transmutation (Low Level), Telekinesis, Shape Shifting, Absorption, Super Durability (Continental), Super Endurance (1-5 Weeks), Super Senses

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Tier 3 (Herald)- Flight, Teleportation, Super Strength (100,000 Thousand Tons-500,000 Billion Tons), Super Speed (1xFTL-50xFTL), Telepathy (Planetary), Empathy(Planetary), Energy Blasts (Planetary), Constructs, Transmutation (Mid Level), Telekinesis (Continental), Shape Shifting, Absorption, Super Durability (Super Nova), Super Endurance (1-5 Months), Super Senses, Right Eye of Ra (Nova Level Heat Vision), Left Eye of Horus (Moon Gravity Manipulation), Seth's Sekhem Scepter (Storm Manipulation)

Tier 4 (Silver Age/Classic)- Cosmic Knowledge/Intelligence of Thoth's Scroll, Time Travel/Manipulation, Matter Manipulation/Creation of Amun's Ankh(Sub-Atomic), Sycamore Leaf of Isis, @batkevin74 said:

@Ancient_0f_Days: He's like Thor, Shazam, Dr Strange & Dr Fate rolled into one. WAY POWERFUL, almost too powerful. Write a story, post it up, see how he plays out. I say do it :)

Dimension Dumping, Reanimation, Resurrection, Soul Purification, Banishment, Polymorphic Transmutation, Super Strength (10 Sextillion Tons-50 Octillion Tons), Super Speed (100xFTL-500,000xFTL)Right Eye of Ra (Nova Level Heat Vision), Left Eye of Horus (Moon Gravity Manipulation), Seth's Sekhem Scepter (Storm Manipulation), Ma'at's Feather (Holy Judgement)

Tier 5 (Skyfather)- Sun Power of Ra, Destructive Power of Sekhmet, Sky/Air/Wind Power of Nut, Music and Sound Powers of Hathor, Bastet's Cat Powers, Earth Power of Geb, Osiris's Power Over Death, Anubis's Power of Embalming/Sealing, Isis's Magic Power (which encompasses most of his other magic powers), Wisdom of Thoth, Horus's Gravitational Power, Seth's Power Over Storms, Ma'at's Justice/Judgement, and Amun's Power of Creation

Class: High street level at base - Skyfather at peak

I already finished his back-story, and I am starting on his current story soon .... If you like the character, great. Think he's over powered? Who cares ... most of his upper limits come at the cost of his own physical and mental health as well as burnt out magic so G.O.I. (get over it)

He is pretty original, references from theology and other magical characters obviously, but other than that he's completely my idea (especially the name).

Should I release the contents of his story? I am afraid to cuz my completely original story might get infringed upon (copyright infringement) and profited from by someone else who's too lazy to make their own character/story ... so yeah what are you guys thoughts on that?

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I don't know who thought it was a nice idea to put a God, the friend of said God who just so happens to be nearly equal in power, and the warrior who loves said God against a group of teenage heroes .....

Thor, Beta Ray Bill, and Lady Sif

vs

Superboy, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash (Bart Allen), Cyborg, Starfire, Robin (Dick Grayson), and Beast boy

When I saw this, I was like .... WTFITS??? People where saying Kid Flash solos, and that Wonder Girl was gonna be a problem, Lady Sif was a non factor ... and I'm just in awe of it cus I can't tell if this is DC fan wank, hate on Thor or just plain ignorance ....... I'm not gonna get into it though but as most know what I do when I blog, I load it up with scans. The scans I will be featuring are basically showing everyone just how stupid that thread was because Thor or BRB easily solo, and here's why .....................

FollowSend a PM

Collateral Damage from their hits is also important, here are some good feats for thor.

Courtesy of The_Thunderer, great scans man ......

looks like superman knows how to fight .... just doesn't do it all the time ... here you go .....

Courtesy of Jayfournines

(PS: Can a mod move this to the Superman section? Thanks in advance.)