So, uh... Thanks.

I just wanted to say, after almost five months of ranting about Avengers Arena: Thank You.

While there have been plenty of people who have expressed an appreciation for the book and its quality, and some people who have just told me to shut up or stop making a big deal about it, there has been precious little sadism from my fellow Viners, and that stands out as exceptional.

As many of you know, my ethical problems with the book have kept me from actually buying it (and my ethical problems with piracy have kept me from reading it directly at all). Which means all of my knowledge has come from other avenues: previews, reviews, tweets, tumblogs, blogs, and message boards all over the Internet. Suffice to say I've seen a variety of communities grapple with this book, I've seen a lot of opinions expressed and a lot of words spilled over this title.

And you are, really, the nicest of the bunch. There are some trolls, for sure (heck, I run the risk of enticing them just by posting this), but by and large no one has truly been cruel here, and I just wanted to say I appreciate that. Because when I read people gleefully praising Hopeless for "finally offing so-and-so" and sharpening their proverbial knives and drooling at the prospect of which other kids I and so many others deeply care about will meet a horrific end, it saddens and sickens me. When I hear people not just say "that was impressive" or "that was well written" but "whenever I'm upset, I just remember that ____ got his neck snapped, and I get happy again," it infuriates me beyond a point I ever really have seen myself go.

I get that elsewhere. I haven't gotten it here. And I'm sure if I had gotten it here, there would have been people who joined me in telling those people to go screw themselves. That kind of solidarity is neat, and it's something I never expected to find when I joined CV back in January.

So, yeah… I know we don't all see eye-to-eye on this series, and some of you do enjoy the book more than I'll ever understand, but thanks for being civil about it. It's pretty awesome.

30 Comments
30 Comments
Edited by i_like_swords

Comic vine is definitely the go to safe haven for all people who like comics.

Online
Posted by theTimeStreamer

you got lucky bro. you had the majority on your side.

Posted by Dernman

I both hate and love the series if that makes sense. I'll tell you strait up though. The Braddok Academy portion of the book is the best part in my opinion.

Online
Posted by akbogert

@dernman said:

I both hate and love the series if that makes sense. I'll tell you strait up though. The Braddok Academy portion of the book is the best part in my opinion.

I hear you. It's doubly painful when people say that, because it underscores the fact that Hopeless' forte simply isn't handling other people's creations, and serves as a reminder of how much better this book would have been for everyone had it been an all new cast. Not only would it not have pissed so many people like me off, but it sounds like it would have just been a better book.

Edited by Dernman

@akbogert said:

@dernman said:

I both hate and love the series if that makes sense. I'll tell you strait up though. The Braddok Academy portion of the book is the best part in my opinion.

I hear you. It's doubly painful when people say that, because it underscores the fact that Hopeless' forte simply isn't handling other people's creations, and serves as a reminder of how much better this book would have been for everyone had it been an all new cast. Not only would it not have pissed so many people like me off, but it sounds like it would have just been a better book.

Exactly

Online
Edited by comicace3

Welcome to comicvine bro

Posted by akbogert

@comicace3: It only took me 2000 posts to truly appreciate it, haha.

Posted by Myrmidon_

@akbogert said:

@comicace3: It only took me 2000 posts to truly appreciate it, haha.

We need to throw a party.

Posted by comicace3
Posted by comicace3
Edited by akbogert

@comicace3: It's funny because you did it twice.

And no, no parties. I find fun to be overrated, anyway >_>

(If you want to throw a party, it's @ravager4's birthday...)

Edited by Arquitenens

I'm done.

Posted by akbogert

I'm done.

One of many, I'd imagine. But why say so here, specifically, out of curiosity?

Edited by TheAcidSkull

WAIT!

people like this book?

Edited by akbogert

@theacidskull: Yes. Some people simply enjoy it nonchalantly. But some people absolutely love it, and I don't just mean "this is a great and well-made book" love it but "finally these terrible characters I hate are getting brutalized and I hope none of them survive" love it. They don't make up the majority but they are absolutely a portion of the fanbase of this series.

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: Yes. Some people simply enjoy it nonchalantly. But some people absolutely love it, and I don't just mean "this is a great and well-made book" love it but "finally these terrible characters I hate are getting brutalized and I hope none of them survive" love it. They don't make up the majority but they are absolutely a portion of the fanbase of this series.

Sight.

But thats about what i imagined -___-, the only people who like this books are people who HATE these characters, or simply don't care about them

i HATE this book because i like the character. sucks

Posted by hart7668

So....what is Avengers Arena? I know, I can read the bios and whatnot but if someone can simply tell me what it is and what is wrong with it, I can appreciate this article much more.

Edited by akbogert

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: Yes. Some people simply enjoy it nonchalantly. But some people absolutely love it, and I don't just mean "this is a great and well-made book" love it but "finally these terrible characters I hate are getting brutalized and I hope none of them survive" love it. They don't make up the majority but they are absolutely a portion of the fanbase of this series.

Sight.

But thats about what i imagined -___-, the only people who like this books are people who HATE these characters, or simply don't care about them

i HATE this book because i like the character. sucks

As much as I wish it were that simple, it's simply not true. There are people who like this book and do like the characters. Now I'll be the first to admit I don't understand that -- the way I come to love characters, I would never prefer their death to anything. I would never want them to die. If it happened, as it sometimes must, I'd deal with that, but I'd never actually say I was glad they had died.

Yet whether I understand it or not, there are a decent number of people who say they are fans of the characters and also fans of this book. These fans tend to point out the lack of appearances the characters have had as of late (though I'll point out that both Avengers Academy and Runaways were still showing up in stories last year, so that obscurity isn't half as great as they seem to think it was) and they say they'd rather a high-profile and memorable death than for the character to just exist in limbo forever and go unused.

Now again, I contest the notion that these characters were destined for limbo when 1. Marjorie Liu wants to be writing X-23 right now, and creator Christ Yost has previously expressed interest in having her meet Kaine; 2. you have artists actually saying they are sad they won't get to draw characters like Nico again, or at lest not for a while; 3. like I said, they cancelled Academy for this book. That's the definition of characters who weren't yet in limbo; in fact I think the attachment of Academy readers was part of what they depended on to get people to pick up the first issue.

But whether I can contest certain things or not, the fact remains that there are people who like Arena and don't hate the characters. So I try not to make extreme statements like you did, because it's simply not true, you know?

Edited by Jonny_Anonymous

@hart7668: Have you seen or heard of the film Battle Royale? It's a rip off of that without the political and social messages

Posted by akbogert

@hart7668 said:

So....what is Avengers Arena? I know, I can read the bios and whatnot but if someone can simply tell me what it is and what is wrong with it, I can appreciate this article much more.

Ask different people, and depending on how cynical they are they'll give you different answers.

From a pure plot standpoint, the villain Arcade captures 16 teenagers and attempts to force them into a deathmatch, where it's kill or be killed. His motives and abilities remain mysterious, but to show he means business at the end of the first issue he blows apart a major (for the fanbases who know these characters) character.

If "teenage deathmatch" sounds familiar, it's because not only has it been done in acclaimed series like Battle Royale, but it's a core of the hugely popular Hunger Games series, and most people are pretty sure that the reason this concept was approved was that Marvel wanted to cash in on the hype of that series (also, the first handful of Arena covers were homages to Battle Royale, Lord of the Flies, Hunger Games, etc.).

The difference, which I and others will very vehemently point out, is that while all those franchises created the characters who were going to be put through hell and likely killed, Avengers Arena only offered about 1/3 new characters, and the other 2/3 were pre-existing characters from franchises with cult, but extremely passionate fanbases: X-23, Nico & Chase (from Runaways), Mettle, Hazmat, and Reptil (from Avengers Academy), Cammi (Annihilation), Chris Powell (Darkhawk), Juston (Sentinel), and the daughter of Red Raven.

Dennis hopeless describes this book as not a meat-grinder, but a character-driven story.

Marvel, on the other hand, advertised it as a book which people who thought Marvel had too many young heroes and hated the sight of them "wouldn't want to miss."

So what is Avengers Arena?

Some people call it a fun book, an interesting story, "the best book from Marvel right now."

I joined Comic Vine to agree with someone else, who said "it's everything wrong with comics today."

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull said:

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: Yes. Some people simply enjoy it nonchalantly. But some people absolutely love it, and I don't just mean "this is a great and well-made book" love it but "finally these terrible characters I hate are getting brutalized and I hope none of them survive" love it. They don't make up the majority but they are absolutely a portion of the fanbase of this series.

Sight.

But thats about what i imagined -___-, the only people who like this books are people who HATE these characters, or simply don't care about them

i HATE this book because i like the character. sucks

As much as I wish it were that simple, it's simply not true. There are people who like this book and do like the characters. Now I'll be the first to admit I don't understand that -- the way I come to love characters, I would never prefer their death to anything. I would never want them to die. If it happened, as it sometimes must, I'd deal with that, but I'd never actually say I was glad they had died.

Yet whether I understand it or not, there are a decent number of people who say they are fans of the characters and also fans of this book. These fans tend to point out the lack of appearances the characters have had as of late (though I'll point out that both Avengers Academy and Runaways were still showing up in stories last year, so that obscurity isn't half as great as they seem to think it was) and they say they'd rather a high-profile and memorable death than for the character to just exist in limbo forever and go unused.

Now again, I contest the notion that these characters were destined for limbo when 1. Marjorie Liu wants to be writing X-23 right now, and creator Christ Yost has previously expressed interest in having her meet Kaine; 2. you have artists actually saying they are sad they won't get to draw characters like Nico again, or at lest not for a while; 3. like I said, they cancelled Academy for this book. That's the definition of characters who weren't yet in limbo; in fact I think the attachment of Academy readers was part of what they depended on to get people to pick up the first issue.

But whether I can contest certain things or not, the fact remains that there are people who like Arena and don't hate the characters. So I try not to make extreme statements like you did, because it's simply not true, you know?

Well thats just Sad, really.

It not only Takes away the chance for some characters to actually grow and become independent heroes in the future, which was the WHOLE idea of avengers academy, and it was actually becoming something bigger. and now i hear that Christopher yost, one of my all time favorite writers, can't write one of my favorite characters(x-23), on one of my favorite titles?( scarlet spider)

This is exactly why i hate Avengers Arena, it;s like one day marvel just said to themselves, "hey? you know what? lets kill all these characters for no apparent reason? isn't that awesome"?

Ugh, i HOPE it ends soon, i really do.

Posted by akbogert

@theacidskull: As do I. I really want to know the numbers for May. For the last five issues it has been losing around 2,000 readers per issue. It is already in the same range as Academy was when Marvel announced that that book was being cancelled. I find it very hard to believe that that book is going to survive into that "season two" Marvel boasted about at C2E2 with the numbers it's generating.

What remains to be seen is whether a death like Nico's will piss people off so they drop it, or convince non-readers this book is about to pick up action-wise and start reading it.

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: As do I. I really want to know the numbers for May. For the last five issues it has been losing around 2,000 readers per issue. It is already in the same range as Academy was when Marvel announced that that book was being cancelled. I find it very hard to believe that that book is going to survive into that "season two" Marvel boasted about at C2E2 with the numbers it's generating.

What remains to be seen is whether a death like Nico's will piss people off so they drop it, or convince non-readers this book is about to pick up action-wise and start reading it.

Either way, i hope it ends! so the characters could be used for other titles!

you got me all excited bout a x-23/kaine crossover.

Posted by akbogert

@theacidskull: I honestly don't think I can think of anything that would get money out of my wallet and into Marvel's hands faster than Yost writing X-23.

Legitimately, it would not matter if it was a $4.99 title. I would drop other books on my list to make room for reading that.

Which is why I'm pretty sure they'll kill her off at the end of this season of Arena, because I can't remember the last time Marvel did something that would make me happy.

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: I honestly don't think I can think of anything that would get money out of my wallet and into Marvel's hands faster than Yost writing X-23.

Legitimately, it would not matter if it was a $4.99 title. I would drop other books on my list to make room for reading that.

Which is why I'm pretty sure they'll kill her off at the end of this season of Arena, because I can't remember the last time Marvel did something that would make me happy.

Thats probably it, ugh. But like i said in my short blog, it's better to die as hero, than to live long enough to see yourself become the villain( Thank you Nolan)

what i mean is that i'd rather x-23 die for her friends than have her kill the others.

Posted by akbogert

@theacidskull: I'd agree that one would be better than the other but I don't want either to happen.

What annoys me is that there's no way to make her kill any of the others without TS. So the fact that they will use TS to make her do it is just kind of really lazy and uninteresting. There's no tension. She'll either kill someone she didn't want to, or she'll be killed because she can't stop herself and hold back. The fact that it's not even real TS just adds insult to injury.

But what really gets me is that Nico died pretty much to save all of Hopeless' characters (seriously, them and Cammi, right?). And how many friends does X-23 have left to die for here? Honestly it seems far more likely if she sacrifices herself it will be to protect more of the Braddock kids.

Ugh. Anyway, I can rant (and have) in other places.

This blog really was just to say I appreciate that the people on CV have predominately not been jerks. And that's really cool.

Edited by TheAcidSkull

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: I'd agree that one would be better than the other but I don't want either to happen.

What annoys me is that there's no way to make her kill any of the others without TS. So the fact that they will use TS to make her do it is just kind of really lazy and uninteresting. There's no tension. She'll either kill someone she didn't want to, or she'll be killed because she can't stop herself and hold back. The fact that it's not even real TS just adds insult to injury.

But what really gets me is that Nico died pretty much to save all of Hopeless' characters (seriously, them and Cammi, right?). And how many friends does X-23 have left to die for here? Honestly it seems far more likely if she sacrifices herself it will be to protect more of the Braddock kids.

Ugh. Anyway, I can rant (and have) in other places.

This blog really was just to say I appreciate that the people on CV have predominately not been jerks. And that's really cool.

Exactly!

The fact is that x-23 morals consist of the fact that SHE WILL KILL, but only if she has to, she punishes bad people, but thats as far as it goes, the fact that the introduce the trigger scent is really annoying and terrible. She'll either kill hazmat, or the other way around.

Nicos death was useless, and i mean seriously useless, i didn't know her that much but she was one of the few people i really liked, and now she's dead, for NO reason whatsoever, and they used HER close friend to kill her -___-

Posted by akbogert

@theacidskull: I think if you didn't know the character at all -- if you didn't have canon/history reasons for having trouble with her death (and let's be honest, there are severe canon/history reasons for having trouble with her death, as I expressed in my blog about talking to Hopeless) -- if you didn't know anything but what you'd seen from Hopeless, it probably would have read as the best death in the series. Most of the people who have tried to defend it to me have said they got very emotional, that they found it devastating but powerful, and that they wanted to go back and read Runaways. So they don't know Nico, and because they don't have reasons to complain about how she didn't need to die, they can take the death at face value, and in that way I'd agree it's probably the most meaningful one in the series.

Granted, that's not how continuity works, so that meaning is quite relative, but I can understand why others (and probably even Hopeless) thought it was good.

Posted by TheAcidSkull

@akbogert said:

@theacidskull: I think if you didn't know the character at all -- if you didn't have canon/history reasons for having trouble with her death (and let's be honest, there are severe canon/history reasons for having trouble with her death, as I expressed in my blog about talking to Hopeless) -- if you didn't know anything but what you'd seen from Hopeless, it probably would have read as the best death in the series. Most of the people who have tried to defend it to me have said they got very emotional, that they found it devastating but powerful, and that they wanted to go back and read Runaways. So they don't know Nico, and because they don't have reasons to complain about how she didn't need to die, they can take the death at face value, and in that way I'd agree it's probably the most meaningful one in the series.

Granted, that's not how continuity works, so that meaning is quite relative, but I can understand why others (and probably even Hopeless) thought it was good.

Thats why it sucks. and thats why i like guys like morrison and greg pak and etc, they READ the older stuff before they write.

Posted by Arquitenens

@akbogert said:

@arquitenens said:

I'm done.

One of many, I'd imagine. But why say so here, specifically, out of curiosity?

Because, this was the only place I remembered where it was spoken on. I mean, I already knew it was coming, but I had to say it.