No, but really, why?

So I've been kind of saying the same thing in a few different places now, and I figured I'd just throw together a quick blog for future reference, because this actually does irk me quite a bit. After all the good will I've been throwing towards Red Hood and the Outlaws and in particular its ability to make Starfire a lot more respectable than it looked like she would be in that infamous beach panel, I find myself almost openly mocked by the series' regression. Consider below:

The image on the left is from RHatO Issue #8, which is the last issue before the Starfire-centric arc (barring the Night of the Owls tie-in). It features the first New 52 outfit for Kori, a wonder of alien design insomuch as chest support is concerned. This outfit has been routinely criticized for being unnecessarily sexual and demeaning to the character, and is used as the argument for both believing that Starfire is just fanservice and refusing to read the book in which she's featured.

Happily, Lobdell took the Outlaws to space, threw Kori into the position of leadership she was born for, and gave her the awesome suit which is featured in the second image This outfit featured in issues #10-#14, and the image is actually a screenshot of 14's cover. It's worth noting that Starfire sports this look after leaving her ship and crew behind. It's a sexy, form-fitting suit, but it's also practical armor and affords her a respectability that was much needed and much appreciated.

Which is why it completely baffles me that in the next issue (#15), Kori is inexplicably back in her skimpy purple slut suit. She begins the issue in a bikini -- which, I guess, is because she's back on the beach -- but when she and Roy rush off to Gotham, she dons the original outfit. There's no explanation given, no practical reason why she would revert to an older, less useful attire, but there you have it: back to the old costume.

As far as I can tell, the respectable outfit is simply gone, disposed of by the artist for no apparent reason (beyond fanservice). With a new creative team coming following the conclusion of Death of the Family and Lobdell's departure, I may have hoped for that respectability to have been brought back, but based on the covers (and now I'm talking about the last image there) it seems that hope was misplaced. Admittedly, upon consideration, this new look affords a little bit more coverage than her original outfit (I erroneously suggested otherwise in a prior post). But comparatively, it is still vastly more revealing than the suit.

Frankly, this saddens me. After all the flack DC got for its portrayal of Kori in the beginning of this run, I thought the Blackfire arc did her a lot of good and actually recognized that Kori could be an awesome, likeable, sexy character without showing off her entire body. Now she's back to flaunting everything, and I can't help but see it as a major regression for the book, DC, and comics in general. Are we in this much of a rut that even progress made since the reboot needs to be retconned to make way for more T&A?

Anyway, yeah...this probably didn't really say a whole lot but I just wanted to look at the images side-by-side, revisit the issues to make sure the disappearance of her suit hadn't been explained, and, well...rant, I guess. Thanks for reading.

73 Comments
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Posted by Aiden Cross

I completely agree, i loved the Blackfire arc and i thought this was the way they would continue with Kori. Actually, i heard nothing but good things from the fans about how she was written and drawn here! She was sexy, powerful, intelligent and as you said a leader. I honestly don't know why they'd throw all that away when it was such a good thing for her character!

Edited by Ravager4

I can't look at Starfire anymore without thinking about how utterly ridiculous her costume is. Even her old costume before the reboot I could tolerate, but this is just... feh. She's down to what amounts to barely more than nipple pasties and a thong. Doesn't matter how fantastically she's written, I can't get past it.

Posted by ComicMan24

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

Posted by akbogert

@Ravager4 said:

Doesn't matter how fantastically she's written, I can't get past it.

@ComicMan24 said:

If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

QFJuxtaposition

Give me ONE valid reason for having a female character run around in her skivvies, particularly when she has a suit of armor specifically designed for her which reflects her royal and leaderly heritage.

I view art as part of storytelling, and the story being told by her wearing that outfit is anything but good writing.

Posted by Ravager4

@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

When it's that utterly ridiculous and induces an eyeroll/facepalm every time I look at it... yes, it kind of does to an extent. Not everyone might have a problem with her dressing like a stripper, but it bothers me when it's this extreme. And it's not like she's invulnerable, either. Starfire has shown vulnerability to piercing attacks in the past, bullets and arrows and the like. Unless that's changed in the reboot, it makes her costume even more ridiculous.

Posted by spinningbirdcake

Well you said it. They went back for fan service. I haven't been reading the title so I'm not sure how well she's being written. I will say though that a character can be sexualized without need for protest. Surely not every female character, and maybe Starfire is being done poorly, but there are women that use their looks in life and so there can be characters that use their looks in their stories. The issue is when they're sexualized in a poor way.

Posted by danhimself

I disagree with anyone who complains about her costume at all....her new costumes aren't really that different from what she was wearing from her very first appearance on

Posted by GrandSymbiote94
@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

I agree with this. But they really, really, really should have kept the armor. 
Posted by Ravager4

@danhimself: her new costumes are far more revealing than any of her old ones were. Her old manner of dress was revealing sure, but still reasonable. This is barely more than nipple pasties and a thong, as I mentioned earlier.

Posted by Mannequin

I loved the attire she was sporting during the Blackfire arc, and now they revert back to this. I just want Kori to be taken seriously, but how can that be when wearing something so impractical, and just downright tacky.

Edited by ComicMan24

@akbogert: Maybe because she doesn't need it, I suppose. Starfire has been shown to be quite the powerhouse from what I have seen. Plus Starfire was always a character that was never ashamed of her sexuality and never cared about what others thought about her outfit.Her costume never bothered me really (maybe except the chest area, they could have made it not look so weird there), although I do have to say that Roccafort's great art did help with that.

I just wish people could get over the whole costume thing. Starfire was always wearing skimpy outfits, ever since she first appeared in comics. I really don't understand why people suddenly decided to make a big deal out of this now.

Posted by danhimself

@Ravager4 said:

@danhimself: her new costumes are far more revealing than any of her old ones were. Her old manner of dress was revealing sure, but still reasonable. This is barely more than nipple pasties and a thong, as I mentioned earlier.

the suit is a little more revealing but it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be

Posted by Aiden Cross

@akbogert said:

Give me ONE valid reason for having a female character run around in her skivvies, particularly when she has a suit of armor specifically designed for her which reflects her royal and leaderly heritage.

Note that i disagree with the depiction of her in skimpy outfits. But i believe the reasons that go around are because it's easier for her to absorb sunlight which enhances her powers when she wears fewer clothing. And that she uses her sex appeal to distract her opponents(which is the excuse for every female character in skimpy outfits). Plus the fact that her race never wore clothes and aren't exactly prudes so it's normal for her.

Posted by Ravager4

@Aiden Cross said:

@akbogert said:

Give me ONE valid reason for having a female character run around in her skivvies, particularly when she has a suit of armor specifically designed for her which reflects her royal and leaderly heritage.

Note that i disagree with the depiction of her in skimpy outfits. But i believe the reasons that go around are because it's easier for her to absorb sunlight which enhances her powers when she wears fewer clothing. And that she uses her sex appeal to distract her opponents(which is the excuse for every female character in skimpy outfits). Plus the fact that her race never wore clothes and aren't exactly prudes so it's normal for her.

I would ask what makes her breasts more capable of absorbing sunlight than, say, her legs (which are covered almost completely, while her chest is exposed). And the whole distracting your enemies with T&A is a pitiful excuse... when has that ever happened? Honestly, if the villain you're fighting is weak willed enough to stand there and go "duuurrr" over exposed flesh, he's probably not that big a threat to begin with.

Posted by ComicMan24
Captured by Blackfire

@Ravager4 said:

@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

When it's that utterly ridiculous and induces an eyeroll/facepalm every time I look at it... yes, it kind of does to an extent. Not everyone might have a problem with her dressing like a stripper, but it bothers me when it's this extreme. And it's not like she's invulnerable, either. Starfire has shown vulnerability to piercing attacks in the past, bullets and arrows and the like. Unless that's changed in the reboot, it makes her costume even more ridiculous.

This is a costume she used to wear in the past. I don't know about you but it seems quite revealing to me. Don't see any people complaining about this though. And not just this one. Her gallery is full of revealing costumes that never bothered anyone.

Edited by ComicMan24

@Aiden Cross said:

And that she uses her sex appeal to distract her opponents(which is the excuse for every female character in skimpy outfits). Plus the fact that her race never wore clothes and aren't exactly prudes so it's normal for her.

Lamest excuse ever lol Doubt it has ever actually happened in any comic. At least it hasn't in any of the comics I have read

Posted by Aiden Cross

@Ravager4 said:

@Aiden Cross said:

@akbogert said:

Give me ONE valid reason for having a female character run around in her skivvies, particularly when she has a suit of armor specifically designed for her which reflects her royal and leaderly heritage.

Note that i disagree with the depiction of her in skimpy outfits. But i believe the reasons that go around are because it's easier for her to absorb sunlight which enhances her powers when she wears fewer clothing. And that she uses her sex appeal to distract her opponents(which is the excuse for every female character in skimpy outfits). Plus the fact that her race never wore clothes and aren't exactly prudes so it's normal for her.

I would ask what makes her breasts more capable of absorbing sunlight than, say, her legs (which are covered almost completely, while her chest is exposed). And the whole distracting your enemies with T&A is a pitiful excuse... when has that ever happened? Honestly, if the villain you're fighting is weak willed enough to stand there and go "duuurrr" over exposed flesh, he's probably not that big a threat to begin with.

Oh i agree completely, but that's some of the reasoning that was stated. Besides, Superman uses sun radiation... you don't see him flying around in a thong..

Posted by Matchstick

As long as she's written well, who cares what she wears.

Posted by Decoy Elite

I'm with CM on this one. I can understand not liking the design, but if the character is well written then the design shouldn't ruin everything for you.

Posted by The Stegman
@Matchstick said:

As long as she's written well, who cares what she wears.

This, People make too big a deal about costumes these days, Is her costume impractical? yes, but so what, we're dealing with comics, lots of things are impractical, as long as her personality and characterization aren't the things regressing I could care less how much boob she shows.
Online
Edited by ComicMan24

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

I agree with this. But they really, really, really should have kept the armor.

Maybe they should yeah althougb tbh I don't really like how it looks. Maybe it is the colour.

Posted by GrandSymbiote94
@ComicMan24 said:

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

@ComicMan24 said:

Kinda disagree with you here. Just because she is back to her old costume, doesn't mean that whatever progression has takes place is gone. For me it doesn't really matter what she wears but how she is written. If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

I agree with this. But they really, really, really should have kept the armor.

Maybe they should yeah althougb tbh I don't really like how it looks. Maybe it is the colour.

It could be more purple. I just feel she needs to be covered some more. I don't mind a little skin to be shown, but her current costume looks dumb imo.
Posted by akbogert

Good grief. I walk away for twenty minutes to snag a quick lunch and I come back to an avalanche. What have I done?!

Heh.

I'm going to miss some people's comments because they continue to roll in as I type, but:

First, to clarify: I am not upset by the lack of forward thinking half so much as I am by regression. Had Starfire always had the skimpy outfit, I would have accepted it. She only had that outfit for the first TPB, which was my introduction to the character, and that didn't keep me from deciding to buy the rest of the series. BUT she didn't stay in that outfit. They gave her a new, cool, and reasonable one. Now they've taken that away. That is what angers me.

I think the point is people do care. There are people -- commenting in this thread, even -- who are refusing to buy or read this book because they don't like how Starfire is portrayed. Put her in the suit THEY ALREADY CAME UP WITH for her, and those people might actually give it a second chance. I don't think there's anyone, on the other hand, who is currently reading this book and would say "that's it, I'm done reading this, because I was only reading to see Starfire's half-naked body."

So even if you disregard the arguments based on dignity of characters, the laughability of such a juvenile industry's outdated view of females and empowerment, and the insult this is to anyone who actually enjoys a little bit of class in their women...just from a sheer business standpoint this decision is probably losing them more sales than it gains/keeps them. For people who don't care about the portrayal so long as the writing is good, the costume doesn't matter; for people to whom portrayal does matter, the costume is probably their only excuse for missing out (and that's doubly true now that Lobdell is off, if you also were skipping out because of him).

@spinningbirdcake said:

Well you said it. They went back for fan service. I haven't been reading the title so I'm not sure how well she's being written. I will say though that a character can be sexualized without need for protest. Surely not every female character, and maybe Starfire is being done poorly, but there are women that use their looks in life and so there can be characters that use their looks in their stories. The issue is when they're sexualized in a poor way.

I'd qualify this as poor execution. Like I said, it'd be one thing if they'd just made that sexuality a thing, and been done with it. But they actually went so far as to change it up, make her respectable. Now she's back to looking like a slut, with no explanation given. The absence of any obvious reason for the behavior -- and the presence of the one obvious non-book explanation, fanservice -- combine to make this a very distasteful direction, in my mind.

@danhimself: As was established in the OP, no, not all of her outfits are sexual. They gave her an awesome one that wasn't, then disregarded it for no apparent reason. My complaint is valid.

@ComicMan24 said:

@akbogert: Maybe because she doesn't need it, I suppose. Starfire has been shown to be quite the powerhouse from what I have seen. Plus Starfire was always a character that was never ashamed of her sexuality and never cared about what others thought about her outfit.Her costume never bothered me really (maybe except the chest area, they could have made it not look so weird there), although I do have to say that Roccafort's great art did help with that.

I just wish people could get over the whole costume thing. Starfire was always wearing skimpy outfits, ever since she first appeared in comics. I really don't understand why people suddenly decided to make a big deal out of this now.

The thing is, they've made a point of growing her character beyond that. She also began with no regard for human emotion and treated Roy and Jason as toys. Now she has come to really value Roy, and she is actively trying to understand his culture more. Her ignorance of human customs can only be used for so long as an excuse before it becomes as inane as the "distraction" argument; frankly, I think we've already reached the point, a year and a half later, where that excuse is invalid.

I'm making "a big deal" simply because I've been mentioning Starfire's portrayal in a bunch of random places more often than usual lately, and this made sense. I didn't expect it to get so much attention, honestly.

@Aiden Cross: I think the Superman thing definitely (and rightly) undermines the sunlight absorption argument. I also just went back and checked some of the Blackfire issues and there are plenty of Tamarans wearing clothes. As in, all of them are wearing clothes. And again, back to the learning human customs thing. She's been around long enough to understand modesty by now.

...my phone has been buzzing with new email notifications this whole time, so I'll probably end up having to repeat myself/refer folks back to this anyway, but there you go.

SALIENT POINT: it's not just that she's dressed like a slut; it's that they moved her character away from that and now have inexplicably decided to go back to it.

Posted by KnightRise

@danhimself said:

I disagree with anyone who complains about her costume at all....her new costumes aren't really that different from what she was wearing from her very first appearance on

This is so true

@ComicMan24 said:

Captured by Blackfire

A good character shouldn't be defined by what she wears. Puting pants on Wonder Woman and covering Power Girl's cleavage don't make them "better" ccharacters. Kori is sexy as hell and kicks ass with plenty of personality flair. The way she looks and dresses is just a bonus.

Posted by Decoy Elite

So the problem is she had a better costume and they took it away?

Still don't see that ruining the character.

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: I don't remember having said "ruining the character."

My whole point -- as encompassed in the title -- is that there's no good reason why they couldn't have kept the armor, and it greatly disappoints me as, you know, a decent, forward-thinking human being who'd like to be able to defend comics as more than a teen boy's wet dream, that they intentionally backtracked from a progressive artistic decision made earlier in the run.

Posted by Decoy Elite

@akbogert said:

@Decoy Elite: I don't remember having said "ruining the character."

My whole point -- as encompassed in the title -- is that there's no good reason why they couldn't have kept the armor, and it greatly disappoints me as, you know, a decent, forward-thinking human being who'd like to be able to defend comics as more than a teen boy's wet dream, that they intentionally backtracked from a progressive artistic decision made earlier in the run.

Because without the armor she's not allowed to be a good character?

I get the design isn't as good but you seem to exaggerating the effect here. I mean who's going to go to Red Hood and the Outlaws when looking for a comic to hold on a pedestal for the medium?

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: Again, I never said anything about Starfire as a character. Actually, that's not true. I spoke to her developing affection for Roy, having an eagerness to understand human customs, and her empowerment as royalty and as commander of a warship. I love Starfire, and like I said above, I wouldn't have given up on her or the book if they'd kept the outfit. Nor am I giving up now. I plan to continue to buy this book and to continue considering Starfire awesome.

I am holding this book up merely as an example of a book that started off on the wrong foot, was criticized, hopped onto the right foot, and then just when it got me optimistic managed to leap back onto the wrong foot once more. The point isn't whether this is an ideal book for showcasing comics as it is a prime example of the backwards thinking pervasive in the industry as a whole. The fact that enough people could consciously agree to strip Starfire back down to half-nakedness suggests that the industry is even further from being respectable than I initially thought. I'm more offended by the intentional decision to wade back into depraved waters than I ever would have been had they just stayed there the whole time. It's like reverse evolution: a sure sign of impending decay.

Posted by Decoy Elite

@akbogert: Just because one bad design decision was made doesn't mean the comic will go down hill.

Posted by danhimself

@Decoy Elite said:

@akbogert: Just because one bad design decision was made doesn't mean the comic will go down hill.

and it's not like it's a bad decision either...she wore the space suit in space just like Roy and Jason and when they got back to earth they all started wearing their old costumes again...the problem is that all of these "forward thinkers" are actually backward thinkers

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: I'm speaking to something much broader than just Red Hood. The fact that decision-makers in the industry are keen on decisions like this -- this is merely one of many -- signals a general lack of progress industry-wide.

@danhimself: Obviously you and I vastly disagree, because I think it wasn't just a bad decision, but an outright terrible one. I established in the OP (and I've referred back to it twice now for you, so perhaps you should reread it?) that she continued to wear the suit after leaving space. Had it disappeared immediately, it may have been slightly more understandable. It did not.

Posted by Decoy Elite

@akbogert: So basically you don't like the new outfit, well old outfit really and now comics must be falling down the dark hole of depravity you spoke of earlier. Because Starfire is the only female character who's gone to a more conservative outfit and then back to a more skimpy one. Oh wait, DC did that Powergirl as well but no one cared because her more conservative outfit was outright terrible.

You can pretend that this is a sign that the sky is falling all you want but I personally think you're just tossing around hyperbole like it's facts.

Posted by Ravager4

@Decoy Elite said:

Oh wait, DC did that Powergirl as well but no one cared because her more conservative outfit was outright terrible.

To be fair, she was also getting said conservative costume torn to shreds every issue (literally... there's maybe two issues that I can recall where she didn't lose her clothes). So, if giving her her classic costume back means she's no longer getting stripped down every issue, then it's a good move.

Not that it will help how terribly she's being written... but it's a start.

Posted by Decoy Elite

@Ravager4: Well yeah that to. Honestly I didn't read the current stuff with her because of that.

Although it's worth noting that people were called sexist when they said her new costume sucked, which annoyed me because the design was terrible.

Posted by danhimself

@Decoy Elite said:

@Ravager4: Well yeah that to. Honestly I didn't read the current stuff with her because of that.

Although it's worth noting that people were called sexist when they said her new costume sucked, which annoyed me because the design was terrible.

I think that it's sexist to believe that they have to have these suits that cover them up from head to toe

Posted by Ravager4

@Decoy Elite: Yes, I hated the costume because it was an outright fashion travesty, not because it covered her up... I mean good god, is it an eyesore. Even so, that wouldn't be enough to deter me if she was being written well, but she isn't... she's being written horribly. And the book she's in is just boring beyond belief.

I dropped it after issue 3, but I've kept up with reviews to see if it's gotten any better and worth picking up again (hint: it hasn't).

Posted by Decoy Elite

@Ravager4: Yeah I think at the end of the day when it comes to costumes I care more about design than if it looks slutty or not. Although obviously it won't matter if the character is written well enough.

Posted by Teerack

The blue suit was just a space suit. They all stopped wearing their space gear. Her outfit is fine. People really need to stop grasping at straws to shout out sexist at this point.

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: There's nothing hyperbolic about stating that the comics industry is the most brazenly and unapologetically misogynistic mainstream entertainment industry in America today. Female characters are routinely sexualized to an extent well beyond any male characters (and far more frequently). There are few women in any creative roles in the industry (writing or art) and the way comics are written and drawn reflects that overwhelmingly male and, typically, horny mentality. If I've made any exaggeration, it's in my expectations for comics to be moving in a positive, rather than backwards direction. There is no other medium you can point to wherein the gender roles are this overtly unbalanced.

Gaming comes close, but gaming has been making strides in the right direction, not least of which by taking the sex symbol of gaming, Lara Croft, and reproportioning her body while trying to maker her a relatable, believable character. It remains to be seen whether they succeed or fall into other pitfalls while trying to dodge the old ones, but the point is they are trying. I cannot say the same about comics. Here was a chance for a character known for being over-sexualized to be rethought in a positive way, and after a single story arc which successfully did that, they've artistically settled with going back to treating her like nothing but eye candy.

I'm using Starfire as an example only because it's one on which I feel comfortable speaking, based on my own knowledge of how she's been portrayed in the last year. As you yourself acknowledge, there's nothing new about it. That doesn't negate my point, but enhance it. For whatever reason, the comic industry doesn't believe that it can treat female characters like actual people (rather than sex objects) and still make money. And the only thing worse than that is the fact that -- judging by comments like I've seen on this blog and elsewhere on Comic Vine, including the whole Power Girl thing -- well the only thing worse is that they're probably right, because comic readers want the majority of the female characters to be treated as sex objects.

I didn't come into comic reading with any assumptions or vendettas. I didn't even come in here considering myself sympathetic to feminism. But the misogyny is so blatant I couldn't miss it, and I'm afraid anyone who says otherwise has simply been breathing in the stench for too long to still notice it. It's absolutely there.

Posted by Decoy Elite

@akbogert: Dude, for real you need to stop responding to my few sentences with multi paragraph rants.

If you think comics have only had female characters who exist to be used as fan service then you need to read more comics. Simple as that.

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: "Dude," if you've ever read anything I write, ever, you realize that's just how I roll. I respond to everything with multi paragraph...well, I wouldn't say rants, though admittedly I'm bordering on ranting now. When I pour myself into three or four paragraphs and you deliver a sentence or two which you believe undermines or addresses everything I said, I feel compelled to highlight every way in which your response was insufficient.

You also continue to put words in my mouth with extreme words. I never said "only" or "all," any more than I said that Starfire's character has been flushed down the drain or insinuated that my pessimism about the industry was based solely on this example. I appreciate that you and I are very much opposed on this matter, and I can accept that and move along. What I have trouble accepting is the dismissive tone of every single one of your comments here, and the attitude (not yours, mind you, but an attitude that is rather prevalent on CV) that because good stories can be told with slutty outfits on objectified female characters, that somehow means that slutty outfits on objectified female characters are fine. It's like telling a mechanic that shoddy brakes are okay because the car still drives well: yeah, that may be true, but that doesn't mean fixing the brakes is pointless, and ignoring them for long may result in a preventable collision.

Posted by Dragonborn_CT

I don't like her new outfit. It looks just ridiculous. I don't see anything wrong with being impractical considering her original outfit was basically part lingerie, part bondage gear. But her third outfit looks so silly...

Posted by Decoy Elite

@akbogert: I only put extremes in your mouth because it's easy to mistakenly do when you speak with such hyperbole.

Listen, I don't like slutty outfits for the most part. I actively hate fanservice because it distracts from the story. But saying that it's so completely prevalent in comics and they comics are heading backwards as far as female character design goes is just plain wrong. I'm reading two female leading books right now, Journey Into Mystery and Captain Marvel so it's hard for me to not roll my eyes when someone says that comics are all about fanservice when it comes to woman. Heck, of my own personal pile I could only really find one comic with bad fan service and that was Iron Man and only because Greg Land was drawing it and he's terrible.

I get that you don't like the design, I get that it seems backwards, I really understand. But it's not all about fanservice and I don't think it's a sign of the entire industry having a probably when it comes to fanservice.

Posted by Imagine_Man15

I'd like to ignore the sexualization aspect for a moment and focus strictly on a stylistic element here... the suit from the Blackfire arc is simply by far a better costume than any of the others. Not even taking into account the fact that it may be less revealing or more empowering or whatever, the blue suit just flat out looks better, and its really pretty cool. Compared to it, the other outfits aren't just skimpy, but they're boring.

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: Part of the issue is, I think, the popularity of the bad stuff, as well. Perhaps I ought to have focused on how the over-sexed stuff seems also to be the material at the forefront, both in terms of popularity and sales. Not that it's antithetical to quality writing. Just that the overall product is refusing to truly achieve the greatness, as art, which it could if it had a bit more of an egalitarian approach to the way in which it presented itself. The two books you cite are hardly the major headline-makers. Maybe if they were, and Starfire were a fringe argument, I'd be closer to rolling my eyes along with you.

I don't mean to say the whole industry is backwards. I simply viewed this particular change as backwards, because, well, it is backwards, in terms of reversing what previously looked like a victory for reasonable portrayal of women. A willingness to be backwards just strikes me as indicative of a lack of progressive thinking. I don't mean to say that the industry is as a whole sliding backwards; I mean that by having places like this where it is sliding backwards, the overall progress of the industry is slowed.

There's actually a pretty interesting discussion in the Off-Topic boards about the industry's trouble with women (and how it tends to popularize artists with a penchant for fanservice), but at this point I think, at least as far as you and I stand, we have come to a good understanding of one another's views and it just happens to be we disagree. Cool.

Posted by Decoy Elite

@Imagine_Man15 said:

I'd like to ignore the sexualization aspect for a moment and focus strictly on a stylistic element here... the suit from the Blackfire arc is simply by far a better costume than any of the others. Not even taking into account the fact that it may be less revealing or more empowering or whatever, the blue suit just flat out looks better, and its really pretty cool. Compared to it, the other outfits aren't just skimpy, but they're boring.

I agree that changing the outfit was a bad design decision on the part of the creative team.

@akbogert: I don't completely disagree with you, I just think it's not really as bad as most people say. And I know that sounds like I'm tossing the issue aside, but I do think more writers should focus on expanding characters outside of fanservice.

Posted by akbogert

@Decoy Elite: No, that's fair. What galled me is that this was an issue they seemed to have actually fixed, and then hit a CTRL-Z on it. If Tynion's writing is half as good as the hype says, I'm sure I'll have plenty of things to keep me occupied without having to worry about how much of Kori's chest is visible. Though I do find the new outfit rather ugly, and completely agree with about the other suit's strength being more in its awesomeness than its modesty.

Posted by TheHulk

They just trying to satisfy the pervs. Hulk remember playing DC Universe Online and Hulk ran into scene where Hulk had to save the Titans from Raven's(who under control of Trigon)'s wrath, and Starfire was one of them. She wear something that exposed a lot of her body.

Not only that, Hulk ran into Giganta at one point in the game and you could actually see her butt through her suit. She not in bikini, but suit so tight you could see buttcrack.

Posted by Joygirl

@akbogert said:

@Ravager4 said:

Doesn't matter how fantastically she's written, I can't get past it.

@ComicMan24 said:

If she is written good, does it really matter what she is wearing?

QFJuxtaposition

Posted by XavierAM

Hey. I found my way here because I did a google search for recent pages anout Starfire. I was curious what had changed since the big starfire scandal of last year. I read a lot of comics as a kid / teen and still have a fondness for the hobby. Every so often, I wonder "what's good? What's worth getting into?"I'm sad to see that it really is as bad as the reputation would have it. Distorted, fan service art; callous execs and misogynistic grognards. I'm disappointed.So, yeah, in case you're wondering, this blatant sexism is costing the industry readers.

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