Prof. Xavier actual helper and teacher?

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#1 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
how many ppl has xavier personally trained and help control their abilities?
it seems he has hurt more ppl then help them.
he rarely is seen personally helping his students.
to me he seems worse then a military recruiter who lies and makes promises that he fails to uphold..
#2 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

Xavier was finding and training mutants for 40 years before Brubaker retconned Deadly Genesis into his background and made him into a morally shady character. And just because Fraction is doing  BS characterization of Xavier so Cyclops can look cool, that does not mean Xavier was always that way. In fact for most of his life on panel, Xavier was shown to be *far* more pacifist than Cyclops is being shown now.
 
The first two teams Xavier was repeatedly shown personally training, as well as the New Mutants who were specifically *not* recruited to be a super hero team, (they just went ahead and did it anyway). He had  a hand  training most of the mutants that walked across the threshold of Institute until 2006.   At the very least other X-men who were training newer mutants were using his methods.
 
Just because newer writers are on a "I hate old people, let's make him look bad so we can get rid of him" kick, the character deserves respect for being a pillar of the X-Men for 40-plus years. 
 
Speaking of "military recruiters", Cyclops is the one Marvel editorial wanted to and has turned into a general. The X-Men used to be a family, but Alex Alonso (the editor for the X-titles) wanted and did turn them into an army. And Xavier had to be shoved aside to do it.

#3 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
in the early mid 90's Xavier with held information from  logan and his passed, out of fear of losing logan from his team...
 
Xavier impeded  the progression of logan's recovery which forced logan to get help from other ppl like jean and going back to the wpn X compound on his own..

 
Xavier has failed to help storm work through her claustrophobia as far as i know as well..
 
this is decades before his current portrayal.. 
 
magneto himself has question Xaviers audacity to claim or believe he knows best for humanity and mutants included... all unilateral decisions by his own standards and believes..
#4 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know anything about what Charles did or did not tell Logan.
 
Storm certainly can handle tight spaces better than she could when just being underground made her scream and go fetal (as it did when she first joined the team). Most often people only learn to live with phobias, they are never completely "cured". 
 
I'm a Magneto fan. Magnus questioning Charles right to act in the interests of what he views as best for mutant kind is more than a little "pot calling the kettle black". 
 
But honestly even if these were valid criticisms, all that stacked up against how many people he did help and all that he accomplished?
 
Small potatoes. He's made some mistakes, some of them tragic, but his contribuitions for good far outweigh his debts for arrogance. 
#5 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking: Don't forget that he knowingly enslaved an intelligent  life form in the danger room and did not tell anybody.
#6 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Watch Dog: Again, recent retcon Just like the recent revelation in X-Men Legacy that he didn't help Rogue control her power. 
 
There has been a deliberate campaign in the last four years to destroy Xavier as a character. It's so blatant a bias on the part of Marvel editorial  it's pathetic. And even when Carey  spent a year rehabilitating the character from all the knocks he took, Xavier was then handed over to Fraction to write as Cyclops' whipping boy.
 
But the answer to "Has Xavier ever been a good guy?" Yeah, for 40 years he was. He wasn't perfect, but he was a good guy who did help a lot of people.
#7 Edited by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
@Watch Dog said:

" @castleking: Don't forget that he knowingly enslaved an intelligent  life form in the danger room and did not tell anybody. "

 i did not know that.. can you explain it further pls..
 
 
also Xavier has ease dropped on various mutants with cerebro all under the guise that he is doing the right thing.
 
he tried it on X man and mouse AKA aldo ferro AKA psi borg the wpn X TP who outfitted all the members with the blocks.
#8 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio

how come xavier always gets ragged on but magneto is almost treated as a hero despite being a complete racist who has no problem destroying peoples live including some of his fellow mutants to further his goals which almost always are to put himself as the ruler of mutants. hes just a bigot who can talk people into following him. so he had bad shit happen to him he has become just as bad as the people who caused him to hate humans

#9 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania: I might be in the minority but I disagree with you definition of reton they did not change anything they simply inserted new info that we were not preavasly awere of 
 
I started a therd on a nuther bord about this I titeled it "is Xavier a dick or what" and this was befor Deadly Genesis or the "danger" story came out and every one payed no atention to my points they jus jupped down my back cuz I called him a dick so now that there is more to saport my opinon you tell me it dos'ent cont WTF mate.
#10 Edited by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
B/C mag's doesnt hide any ulterior motives like Xavier does...
 
We know what Mag is and why he is that way... he has also chosen not to hurt mutants whenever possible or even humans for that matter... when he does its to prove a point.
 
Xavier has repeatedly lied or failed to uphold his promises to his own students for decades.. he hides behind his moral justifications when he does so...
 
 
HYPOCRITE
#11 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking:
i understand that but magneto shouldnt be treated as a hero just cause prof x sucks
#12 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking: It happened in Astonishing X-men Joss Whedon's 2nd arch I think.
#13 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
Magneto believes he is at war and usually he is retaliating not the cause of the impeding battles..... 

the one time he actually started anything was when he made his 1st appearance and tried to take over the missile silo.
Mag's has grown and changed from his initial portrayals. If he kills ppl in battle then guess what its  a battle it happens..
 
if the UN shield and avengers want to attack mag and challenge his soverienty which is an act of war then guess what mag;s will do what he needs to do.
 
#14 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe: I agree Magnetois  horrible person and a raciest.
#15 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
im a supremacist i dont mind him  *blushing*
#16 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Watch Dog:
i think treating him as a heroic figure is just glorifying bigotry hes a villain and should be treated as such
#17 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe: True that
#18 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah, I see what is happening.
 
I have run into a couple Magneto fans like this: Those that feel that Magneto is the hero ergo Xavier must be the villain. 
 
Sadly by casting the characters in black and white, they are missing out on the rich moral complexity of both characters as much as those who cast Xavier as a saint and Magneto as the devil. 
 
Also sadly, they make a bad name for other fans of the character. You have no idea how much flak I have run into following in the wake of fans like this, just because I'm a Magneto fan "just like them." 
 
Magneto is not a hero, not matter how above the board his actions and noble is intentions might be. Magneto has never claimed to be a hero, in fact when he was called one he said:
 
"I am no hero. Merely a man who has seen and done and endured what can never be forgotten or forgiven." ~ Uncanny X-Men #196
 
You will not find many heroes on the world stage. Global Politics does not encourage or endure them, but you will find many characters like Magneto. People who are not heroic, but are doing horrible things in their people's interest.

#19 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
Xavier also failed to help franklin richards after he assured the  FF he would..
#20 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
i know magneto doesnt think himself a hero that was more directed at the fans who claim he is, i do like magneto as a villain obviously but he is a bad guy
#21 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: i know magneto doesnt think himself a hero that was more directed at the fans who claim he is, i do like magneto as a villain obviously but he is a bad guy "

But he isn't a "bad guy". Just like casting Magneto as a hero, casting Magneto as a straight villain is too narrow a perception for what the character has been established to be.
 
He isn't a hero or a villain. The closest "pigeon hole" he comes to is bouncing between anti-hero and anti-villain.
 
This show one of my friends put it:
 
 
>>> I think that part of the appeal of Marvel comics (and to a lesser extent, the entire superhero genre entirely) is that it allows its readers to participate in a wish fulfillment fantasy where the reader witnesses a formerly powerless and sympathetic individual attain great power suddenly or even accidentally. In this narrative, the protagonist’s ascension is seen as being largely positive; he/she becomes a superhero and works to help the lives of others, while still dealing with the problems of his/her everyday life. The most obvious example of this scenario is Peter Parker, but most Marvel superheroes are a variation on this scenario in one form or another. I think most readers of comics buy into this theme; I enjoyed it as a kid, and I'm not afraid to admit that I enjoy it now.


Yet Claremont’s vision of Magneto takes this archetype and twists this theme—ever so slightly. A formerly powerless and very sympathetic individual suddenly gains great powers, but his transformation is seen as being much more ambiguous than Peter Parker's or Steve Rogers'. Magneto attempts to use his powers for good (or at least what he perceives as being good), but the results are much more realistic than in most superhero narratives. This reversal makes Mags one of Marvel’s best characters creatively; but reading a good Magneto story can also be a little disturbing because it questions conventions that we have grown to accept. I think this explains a lot of the anxiety that Magneto fosters among both creators and readership. In Marvel’s universe, Magneto exists alongside the old archetype, but also calls it into question.

While a character like Mags might not be that unusual in dystopian sci-fi setting or even in a more creative graphic novel such as the Watchmen, he stands out in this milieu. I sometimes get the feeling that readers, writers, and editors don’t always know what to do with him. They try to fit Mags in labels such as good/evil, hero/villain, etc, but he doesn’t always fit into these easy categories. Take away his powers and his mutanthood and he is like a real person, in many respects.

I like the comparison to “Munich and Syriania,” by the way. Perhaps Mags fits into these film's historical and cultural contexts more than he fits into the same world as the average super hero comic. But of course, we wouldn’t really want Mags to not stand out. What makes him so discomforting also makes him so interesting. ~ CandidI, Marvel.com X-Men Board<<<

#22 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
hes a racist thats a well known fact
#23 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, he @joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: hes a racist thats a well known fact "
Yes he is. So was Malcom X. Was he a villain?
#24 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
malcom x never murdered anyone or tried to steal missles
#25 Edited by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:  Yes 
racist are bad people real life or fictional.
 
Oh yea Xavier is still a liar and a hypocrite.
#26 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: malcom x never murdered anyone or tried to steal missles "

But he did hate and advocate violence against whites.
 
People fighting for the liberty of their ethnic group often do horrible things. Iraqui insrugents, IRA, Basque separatists, the resistance movements in Europe during WWII, American revolutionaries (who were viewed by the British essentially as terrorists.) Magneto is one of these. You cannot put him in the same simplistic category as Doom or Loki because his motivations put him in a entirely separate discussion. And even many of his actions are very morally ambiguous. Yes, he held the world hostage, in order to bring an end to the Nuclear Arms race. Yes, he sunk a submarine, but they fired nuclear missiles at him during a declared state of war. Magneto just not a simple character that can be put in either category. 
 
Like my friend said above: "Take away his powers and his mutanthood and he is like a real person, in many respects. "
#27 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
i didnt say he was in the same category as doom or loki but he is a villain regardless of the motivation evil is evil period
#28 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: i didnt say he was in the same category as doom or loki but he is a villain regardless of the motivation evil is evil period "

But how is he "evil' whereas as Malcom X was not? Malcom just did not take it as far, so "evil" is designated by action and not moral attitudes? The Black Panthers killed cops. Were they "evil?'
 
Starting looking at Magneto behavior from a real world POV, and suddenly labeling people as "evil' or "good" is not so simple.
#29 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
every thing mag's has done we our governments and president kings have done worse...
#30 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
because towards the end malcom actually started to compromise due to his visit to mecca where as i dont beleive magneto will ever be able to do that
#31 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
umm..he did join the X men and recently changed his views as well near the end..
#32 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania said:

" @joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: i didnt say he was in the same category as doom or loki but he is a villain regardless of the motivation evil is evil period "

But how is he "evil' whereas as Malcom X was not? Malcom just did not take it as far, so "evil" is designated by action moral attitudes? "
Because he's a racist and to hate anyone just because of the way they are born is evil and he's a hypocrite when you consider what happened to him as a child.
#33 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking:
yea but hes probably gonna turn away from them as soon as he sees a chance to grab power for himself claiming its for the good of mutant kind
#34 Edited by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
sigh.... he choice to relinquish his power and sacrifice himself rather then go back to being what he once was...
 
remember when the avengers and  sentry tossed him into the son..
#35 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: because towards the end malcom actually started to compromise due to his visit to mecca where as i dont beleive magneto will ever be able to do that "

He already has. 
 
He went from World Conquest in the Silver Age to trying Xavier's path during the 1980's, during which he stood trial for his past crimes. When Xavier's way failed him (after the Mutant Massacre, and the Mutant Registration Act, and the X-Men faked their death, and one of his students was killed by a human) Magneto left Xavier's path and turned to militant separatism with the goal of forming a mutant colony, which the first two were immediately attacked by the U.N. and the X-Men before he had had made any aggressive moves. He then forced the U.N. to sign off on the third: Genosha. 
 
That was wiped out by the Supersentinel, and then House of M, and he has been reeling ever since. Now he's with the X-Men. Again. 
 
If anything, Magneto's 46 year career in the pages of the X-Men have shown him *very* capable of change.
 
BTW-Did you know that Genosha was not even a segregated society, and that he had humans serving on his advisory cabinet?
#36 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio

WTF

#37 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
and during house of m when he ruled the world it was feuled by bigotry and he treated humans and mutants with physical mutations as lesser people which is probably how it would really be if he got what he wanted
#38 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
and during the AoA mag's fought for all humans not just mutants...
#39 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: and during house of m when he ruled the world it was feuled by bigotry and he treated humans and mutants with physical mutations as lesser people which is probably how it would really be if he got what he wanted "

Can you show me in the pages of House of M how Magneto's regime treated humans as lesser people?
 
Hank Pym was working right next to Hank McCoy. I did not see Tony Stark had a different standard of living.  Doom still ruled Latervia. The Black Panther still ruled Wakanda.
 
There was a social stigma of being human, but not a legislative one. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but Magneto was not making laws that subjugated humans. He was not even segregating humans. In the World of House of M, humans were living and working side by side with mutants. 
 
And a couple heroes (one mutant, one human) were questioning  whether the transformation was such a bad thing.
#40 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Watch Dog said:

" @Pania said:

" @joshmightbe said:

" @Pania: i didnt say he was in the same category as doom or loki but he is a villain regardless of the motivation evil is evil period "

But how is he "evil' whereas as Malcom X was not? Malcom just did not take it as far, so "evil" is designated by action moral attitudes? "
Because he's a racist and to hate anyone just because of the way they are born is evil and he's a hypocrite when you consider what happened to him as a child. "
What happened to him as a child taught him: "He who holds the power, makes the rules. The only way for my people to be safe is if we hold the power." Not so different from the Zionists who formed Israel after millennia of antisemitism in Europe. Is it nice? No. Are they evil?
 
 Then the moment he displayed his power to his wife, whom had had saved her life three times over and known and loved her for years, she called him a "monster" and bolted. Which taught him, "No matter how well someone knows you, no matter how many times you have proven yourself to them, humans hate and fear difference, no matter what." 
 
And then he ran into Hydra, which was continuing the Nazi's white supremacist work. And it was only after that he started to turn against humans (remember he had been volunteering in a psychiatric hospital trying to help people just before that incident, the very reason he ran into Hydra was because they had kidnapped a human friend of his: Gabrielle Haller) , and even so, it took the CIA murdering his GF that finally pushed him over the edge into outright hatred.  
 
Those are the lessons life taught him that set him down the road to Cape Citadel. 
 
And Cape Citadel was 46 years ago. The character has learned more lessons since, as I pointed out above.
 
So yeah, he's a racist and he is not a nice guy. but it's a little more complex than "He's evil."
#41 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania: Just cuz he's complex does not make him any less evil.
 
But isn't this thread about how much of a tool Xavier is not how much of a tool Magneto is.
#42 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Watch Dog: Then you believe that Malcolm X was "evil" as well, because he was also racist.
#43 Posted by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania: If he truly was a racist then yes just as any other racist is evil at least on some level regardless of there motive
#44 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Watch Dog: O.K. then. If that is how you define "evil" than I cannot argue against that. Magneto is certainly racist, and I'm not going to try to get you to redefine such a core concept  in your view of the world for a comic book character. ;-) 
 
From my POV: I agree that racism is a societal evil and it should be stamped out ASAP, but being racist does not automatically make someone evil. "Evil" for me is a very extreme statement. People can be wrong, they can be stupid jerks, they can be violent, and racist, and homophobic, and alcoholic, and whathaveyou. But you have to get to Ted Bundy and child pornographers before I start slinging around the word 'Evil". Hitler was evil because he took his racism to the point where he was murdering millions of people by the most efficient means possible. He only recognized Aryans as human beings and all "sub humans" (Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc.) had to be disposed off lest they "pollute Aryan blood and stand in the way of Aryan destiny" (or whatever). But Magneto's racism has never been on that level. It can't be. The family he lost was human. His daughter Anya whom he still mourns was human. The mother of his children, whom he still sincerely wishes had never left him, was human. Up until two years ago, his granddaughter was human (and he had far less problems with her being human than Quicksilver did, in fact he had no problems with Luna being human and completely freaked out when he found out that Quicksilver had explosed her to the Terrigen Mists). He cannot separate himself the way Hitler had no connection to the Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs. 
 
So to me Magneto is racist, he is violent, he has major anger issues, and he can be a real SOB when he wants to be, but he is not evil.
#45 Posted by Truex (460 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania: I agree with you that Magneto isn't "evil". He has committed horrible acts but he isn't just a psycho killer like Red Skull. He only does what he feels is necessary to prevent any other mutant from having to deal with the extreme racism that he went through his entire life. If given the chance Magneto would rather rid humans of their prejudices and live in peace than kill everyone, while just about every other villain would rather kill as many people as possible.
#46 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@Truex: Good point. X-Men vs. Avengers and House of M, both times he wanted to change society so that the prejudice didn't exist anymore, not eliminate humans from existence. Same thing could be said of his multiple attempts to create a mutant homeland: Create a society in which the prejudice did not exist. 
 
Yeah, "evil" for me is someone who harms innocents for their own sadistic pleasure. Casandroa Nova, Loki, Red Skull. Those are truly evil characters.
 
As to Xavier, he made mistakes, but his contributions far outweigh them. And if one needs proof: Just look at AoA. *chuckle*
#47 Edited by Watch Dog (834 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania said:

" @Truex: Good point. X-Men vs. Avengers and House of M, both times he wanted to change society so that the prejudice didn't exist anymore, not eliminate humans from existence. Same thing could be said of his multiple attempts to create a mutant homeland: Create a society in which the prejudice did not exist.   Yeah, "evil" for me is someone who harms innocents for their own sadistic pleasure. Casandroa Nova, Loki, Red Skull. Those are truly evil characters.  As to Xavier, he made mistakes, but his contributions far outweigh them. And if one needs proof: Just look at AoA. *chuckle* "

 Magneto had nothing to do with the creation of the House of M it was his children that created it using Wanda's power and Quick Silver's manipulation they just made there daddy king not Magneto's fault
 
As I say below there are different levels of evil and I am not denying that the people you have mentioned are evil and even more evil than Magneto but that does not make him not evil it simply makes him less evil by comparison
 
And finally I'm glad you brought the subject back to Xavier. Yes I agree that AOA is proof that his presence has done some good but I propose that he was never good and all of his actions were but a ruse to hide his true agenda you say he was helping the younger mutants to control there powers I say he was training an army you say they defeated "evil" mutants I say he sent children to take out rivals and undesirables.  I would be thrilled if that is were his character was heading.  
 
 
@Pania: That is fair and well thought out argument but all I will say is that there are different levels of evil and even evil people can change
#48 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
so who has Xavier helped individually?
 
the 1st team of x men is a given but what about after them?
#49 Posted by joshmightbe (24101 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pania:
the social stigma was practically government endorsed
#50 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:
" @Pania: the social stigma was practically government endorsed "
Find where he made a law that endorsed it? 
 
@Watch Dog said:
" @Pania said:

" @Truex: Good point. X-Men vs. Avengers and House of M, both times he wanted to change society so that the prejudice didn't exist anymore, not eliminate humans from existence. Same thing could be said of his multiple attempts to create a mutant homeland: Create a society in which the prejudice did not exist.   Yeah, "evil" for me is someone who harms innocents for their own sadistic pleasure. Casandroa Nova, Loki, Red Skull. Those are truly evil characters.  As to Xavier, he made mistakes, but his contributions far outweigh them. And if one needs proof: Just look at AoA. *chuckle* "

 Magneto had nothing to do with the creation of the House of M it was his children that created it using Wanda's power and Quick Silver's manipulation they just made there daddy king not Magneto's fault
 
As I say below there are different levels of evil and I am not denying that the people you have mentioned are evil and even more evil than Magneto but that does not make him not evil it simply makes him less evil by comparison
 
And finally I'm glad you brought the subject back to Xavier. Yes I agree that AOA is proof that his presence has done some good but I propose that he was never good and all of his actions were but a ruse to hide his true agenda you say he was helping the younger mutants to control there powers I say he was training an army you say they defeated "evil" mutants I say he sent children to take out rivals and undesirables.  I would be thrilled if that is were his character was heading.  
 
 
@Pania: That is fair and well thought out argument but all I will say is that there are different levels of evil and even evil people can change "

Watch Dog, remember what Pietro said: "We can finally give our father what he has always wanted." And that is backed up by the fact that Magneto's Genosha was also a non-segregated society of both humans and mutants, remember that Kitty Pryde's father was amoung the human population that died there during the Massacre. There were two humans on Magneto's advisory cabinet. House of M was what he wanted.
 
As for Xavier if you think the X-men were formed just to take out "rivals", I supposed he should have let Magneto trake over Cape Citadel and Snato Marco, let Proteous murder Moira and terrorize Scotland, not kept an alien dragon from destoying Toyko, etc. etc. etc. Come on now. There is nothing to support that idea.
 
That is what the HFC's goal were: to exploit mutants to gain power and take out political rivals.
 
Xavier is not the HFC.
 
Adn trying to make him into the HFC 46 years after the fact is simply rediculous. 
 
@castleking said:
" so who has Xavier helped individually?
 
the 1st team of x men is a given but what about after them?
"

I already answered this question.

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