PG is more cheesecake than ever

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#1 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

It's odd and ironic that the same people who always object to PG's boob size or window here (when it comes up in discussion) have not complained about her costume frequently being torn and falling off. What was the point in giving PG a new costume which covers her legs and boobs if they now often show her falling out of it?

Add to that, she is continually displaying her appetite for casual sex with every male she fancies. Nobody complains about this decreases her respectability as a superhero character, though it is far more overtly sexual than a boob window.

#2 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerGirlFan: i do miss the boob window but i could really care less about PG new frivolous sexuality in fact i like it why does her being more sexual make her less respectable when she's saving the world i don't think anyone would care about the way she conducts her personal life

#3 Posted by The Stegman (24644 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerGirlFan: Did you read Bab's review for World's Finest ? She talks about this in great detail...it's why I love Babs, and why you should too.
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#4 Posted by BatWatch (2762 posts) - - Show Bio

I've noted and objected to it, and I've seen others on comicvine do the same.

#5 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

Amanda Conner really did Power Girl the best. They were definitely right to ditch the boob window, but then I don't get the disposable costume at all. But I miss Amanda's style:

Even with the cheesecake costume, Amanda made PG's personality the first and foremost feature of the book. The new PG book, especially issue 5, seems flat by comparison (edit: no pun intended).

#6 Posted by BatWatch (2762 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

Cute.

#7 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

Psh, New-52 PG sucks... This is not new information.

Ame-Comi PG is where it's at.

#8 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@eippihrellik: @eippihrellik said:

@PowerGirlFan: i do miss the boob window but i could really care less about PG new frivolous sexuality in fact i like it why does her being more sexual make her less respectable when she's saving the world i don't think anyone would care about the way she conducts her personal life

My point was that people scream about PG's boob-size and window stopping her from being taken seriously as a superheroine character and yet there is total silence here about her relating to every pretty male she goes near as a penis to jump onto at the first opportunity.

People complained about too many boob jokes but who now is complaining about constant, cheesy sex jokes? People complained about the boobs/window "sexualizing" her (which they do not) yet don't complain that she is having non-stop sex with every pretty male she meets and continually talking about it..

Aside from that, yes I do object to PG behaving that way. Not being sexual or frivolously sexual, but being so open and crude about it. I don't want a constant stream of sexual innuendos while PG is saving the world. It's not funny and it wastes panel and dialogue space. It's also too unlike the type of character PG originally was.

#9 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: why do you think they were right to ditch the boob window what was the problem with it

#10 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerGirlFan: I see what you mean it is really hypocritical, I've grown so tired of people trying to remove the sexuality from anything involving female anything its really annoying why can't a FICTIONAL character within a FICTIONAL world look however physically attractive as the writer wants people seem to be way to uptight

#11 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

@PowerGirlFan: Did you read Bab's review for World's Finest ? She talks about this in great detail...it's why I love Babs, and why you should too.

Thanks for that. She makes some good points but I don't think Bab went far enough.

That "reclaim the night" story is pointless and shamelessly feminist sermonizing. I've noticed the feminist "sisterhood" tone at other points in the comic and I think it brings it down to a crude level.

#12 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerGirlFan said:

My point was that people scream about PG's boob-size and window stopping her from being taken seriously as a superheroine character and yet there is total silence here about her relating to every pretty male she goes near as a penis to jump onto at the first opportunity.

People complained about too many boob jokes but who now is complaining about constant, cheesy sex jokes? People complained about the boobs/window "sexualizing" her (which they do not) yet don't complain that she is having non-stop sex with every pretty male she meets and continually talking about it..

Aside from that, yes I do object to PG behaving that way. Not being sexual or frivolously sexual, but being so open and crude about it. I don't want a constant stream of sexual innuendos while PG is saving the world. It's not funny and it wastes panel and dialogue space. It's also too unlike the type of character PG originally was.

You are not alone, trust me. This is 80% of the reason why I hate the new Power Girl, because she does not act anything like the Power Girl we knew and loved. She feels like an utterly different character, a cheap imitation masquerading as PG. Sometimes, changes to a character can be good. In this case, they were very much for the worse, because they destroyed any semblance of the old character and completely altered her. If I couldn't get my PG fix in Ame-Comi, I'd be even more broken over this, but at least there's still a version of her I can read that actually feels right.

#13 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: why do you think they were right to ditch the boob window what was the problem with it

Because it brings with it a context that has to be explained. Some writers did it well, but all too often it was just bad design. I'm not against cheesecake, necessarily, but for too long the character was defined by it rather than it be a defining part of the character. The latter is acceptable, but only a few writers pulled that off well.

#14 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: I don't think its a defining part of her character its more of an identifiable part of her character if you were to say they should have ditched it because it conveys the wrong message then i think you're taking it to seriously when it comes down to it its a comic book character who cares if she as giant boobs and a costume that shows them off or not, if i thought that D.C. changed just based on the new writers personal decision i wouldn't care but i don't think that's it i think its everyone's bellyaching about it that eventually made D.C. change it and that's what bugs me, and i also have an issue with people trying to make sure there is no sign of sexuality anywhere that bugs the hell outta me

#15 Edited by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

Another thing that I don't understand is why PG gets so much flak for the boob window, when other heroines out there expose much more skin than she does, including much more copious amounts of cleavage. *coughWonderWomancough*

#16 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: I don't think its a defining part of her character its more of an identifiable part of her character if you were to say they should have ditched it because it conveys the wrong message then i think you're taking it to seriously when it comes down to it its a comic book character who cares if she as giant boobs and a costume that shows them off or not, if i thought that D.C. changed just based on the new writers personal decision i wouldn't care but i don't think that's it i think its everyone's bellyaching about it that eventually made D.C. change it and that's what bugs me, and i also have an issue with people trying to make sure there is no sign of sexuality anywhere that bugs the hell outta me

I'm not trying to desexualize the character. I think cheesecake is fine as long as the context works for it. The boob window bothered me far less than some other costumes, and the disposable costume bothers me more. However, the boob window was also silly. Just do a low-cut top like it used to be if that's what you want. You can argue that it's about confidence and that it can be done well all you want, and you're right that it can be done like that, but I've seen it done poorly for PG too many times to have much sympathy for it with this character.

#17 Edited by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Amanda Conner really did Power Girl the best. They were definitely right to ditch the boob window, but then I don't get the disposable costume at all. But I miss Amanda's style:

Even with the cheesecake costume, Amanda made PG's personality the first and foremost feature of the book. The new PG book, especially issue 5, seems flat by comparison (edit: no pun intended).

PG's costume was not cheesecake and it did not detract from her her as a superheroine character. That is just other people's hang-up, exactly the kind PG flouted with great style. It's other people who have made superheroine character into a boob contest. Now she just flouts convention in a conventional way. I definitely agree that the DCnU PG has an uninteresting personality. She's a stereotype.

#18 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: why do you think they were right to ditch the boob window what was the problem with it

Because it brings with it a context that has to be explained. Some writers did it well, but all too often it was just bad design. I'm not against cheesecake, necessarily, but for too long the character was defined by it rather than it be a defining part of the character. The latter is acceptable, but only a few writers pulled that off well.

The boob window didn't define her as a character, people who didn't read her and therefore didn't get the context used it to define her as a character. Context or no context, what is there to explain? They are boobs! She shows less of her boobs than other characters who nobody seems to have as hang-up about and many other characters have boobs as big or bigger and are taken completely seriously. Catwoman has huge boobs and a zip down to her navel and has her own title for two decades.

#19 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm curious why isn't Wonder Woman defined by her star spangled panties? Or Black Widow by her very deep plunging neckline?

#20 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

Psh, New-52 PG sucks... This is not new information. Ame-Comi PG is where it's at.

I didn't know about this until I saw the ads in this month's DC issues. Can I pay for downloads of this with PayPal or other similar funds transfer services?

Actually this is more inconsistent practice by DC about the PG character - they kept the old costume for Ame-Comi except they made it even smaller.

#21 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: what difference does it make whether or not its a there's a hole in it or a low cut top i mean come on you're are okay with grown men running around in latex suits but not a chick with a hole in her costume that shows off her boobs and the new PG costume looks dumb regardless of the boob window or not its one of the worst most uncreative costumes I've ever seen

#22 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerGirlFan said:

PG's costume was not cheesecake and it did not detract from her her as a superheroine character. That is just other people's hang-up, exactly the kind PG flouted with great style. It's other people who have made superheroine character into a boob contest. Now she just flouts convention in a conventional way. I definitely agree that the DCnU PG has an uninteresting personality. She's a stereotype.

PG was done better in that regard than other characters who had racy look-at-my-figure costumes (e.g., Ms Marvel). Like pre-revamp Starfire, she was one of the characters who could get away with it because some good writers made it work with the character personality, but to claim that her costume wasn't cheesecake when it had a friggin boob window to highlight her most-common-superpower or that her ultra-curvy figure didn't originate from a juvenile game played by an artist who wanted to see what they could get away with (or so the urban legend goes) is, in my opinion, putting the blinders on a little bit. The fans did not start that, the creators did. Yes, the situation can absolutely be redeemed by good writing—and has in the past, which is why I highlighted Amanda Conner's work—but it can also drag the character down to the lowest common denominator.

@PowerGirlFan said:

The boob window didn't define her as a character, people who didn't read her and therefore didn't get the context used it to define her as a character. Context or no context, what is there to explain? They are boobs! She shows less of her boobs than other characters who nobody seems to have as hang-up about and many other characters have boobs as big or bigger and are taken completely seriously. Catwoman has huge boobs and a zip down to her navel and has her own title for two decades.

I wouldn't hold up Catwoman as sexy done right. Especially after the revamp. As for your points about "she's curvy! they're boobs! what's the problem?", well that doesn't mean they need a boob window to highlight the damn things. Everything good thing about PG can be delivered without it, so if it's a problem at all—and it is because it's a barrier to entry when general audience fans feel it means they can write the character off—well why not ditch it?

Also, I don't know if you intended this or not, but I resent the implication that if you don't like the boob window that you're some sort of fake Power Girl fan. I read it, I like the character, I don't like the boob window. That's a perfectly valid perspective.

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: what difference does it make whether or not its a there's a hole in it or a low cut top i mean come on you're are okay with grown men running around in latex suits but not a chick with a hole in her costume that shows off her boobs and the new PG costume looks dumb regardless of the boob window or not its one of the worst most uncreative costumes I've ever seen

The problem with the boob window is that it is ridiculous (whereas with low-cut tops you at least see people wearing those regularly) and it essentially makes her cleavage her superhero symbol. And when you see writers (good ones even) having to bend over backwards to try and explain it away in the most ridiculous ways possible—

—it is very frustrating. Now, I won't defend the costume they came up with as a replacement for the revamp, but if they could come up with something that actually looks good and shows off her figure without me ever having to read a sequence like the above again, I'd appreciate that. And I think that would be a boon to the character and help her reach a wider audience.

#23 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

For the record, the above sequence has been shopped to make it... well, dirtier. That last line should say "But I haven't", not... well, an implication that she wants Superman to "fill her hole". Not saying it makes the excuse any better, but yeah.

#24 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

@fodigg said:

For the record, the above sequence has been shopped to make it... well, dirtier. That last line should say "But I haven't", not... well, an implication that she wants Superman to "fill her hole". Not saying it makes the excuse any better, but yeah.

Ah that's it. I remembered the scene and had to google for it. No wonder it struck me as even worse than I remembered!

#25 Posted by Kid_Omega_Prime (1260 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@PowerGirlFan said:

PG's costume was not cheesecake and it did not detract from her her as a superheroine character. That is just other people's hang-up, exactly the kind PG flouted with great style. It's other people who have made superheroine character into a boob contest. Now she just flouts convention in a conventional way. I definitely agree that the DCnU PG has an uninteresting personality. She's a stereotype.

PG was done better in that regard than other characters who had racy look-at-my-figure costumes (e.g., Ms Marvel). Like pre-revamp Starfire, she was one of the characters who could get away with it because some good writers made it work with the character personality, but to claim that her costume wasn't cheesecake when it had a friggin boob window to highlight her most-common-superpower or that her ultra-curvy figure didn't originate from a juvenile game played by an artist who wanted to see what they could get away with (or so the urban legend goes) is, in my opinion, putting the blinders on a little bit. The fans did not start that, the creators did. Yes, the situation can absolutely be redeemed by good writing—and has in the past, which is why I highlighted Amanda Conner's work—but it can also drag the character down to the lowest common denominator.

@PowerGirlFan said:

The boob window didn't define her as a character, people who didn't read her and therefore didn't get the context used it to define her as a character. Context or no context, what is there to explain? They are boobs! She shows less of her boobs than other characters who nobody seems to have as hang-up about and many other characters have boobs as big or bigger and are taken completely seriously. Catwoman has huge boobs and a zip down to her navel and has her own title for two decades.

I wouldn't hold up Catwoman as sexy done right. Especially after the revamp. As for your points about "she's curvy! they're boobs! what's the problem?", well that doesn't mean they need a boob window to highlight the damn things. Everything good thing about PG can be delivered without it, so if it's a problem at all—and it is because it's a barrier to entry when general audience fans feel it means they can write the character off—well why not ditch it?

Also, I don't know if you intended this or not, but I resent the implication that if you don't like the boob window that you're some sort of fake Power Girl fan. I read it, I like the character, I don't like the boob window. That's a perfectly valid perspective.

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: what difference does it make whether or not its a there's a hole in it or a low cut top i mean come on you're are okay with grown men running around in latex suits but not a chick with a hole in her costume that shows off her boobs and the new PG costume looks dumb regardless of the boob window or not its one of the worst most uncreative costumes I've ever seen

The problem with the boob window is that it is ridiculous (whereas with low-cut tops you at least see people wearing those regularly) and it essentially makes her cleavage her superhero symbol. And when you see writers (good ones even) having to bend over backwards to try and explain it away in the most ridiculous ways possible—

—it is very frustrating. Now, I won't defend the costume they came up with as a replacement for the revamp, but if they could come up with something that actually looks good and shows off her figure without me ever having to read a sequence like the above again, I'd appreciate that. And I think that would be a boon to the character and help her reach a wider audience.

I can't beleve they put that in there. Coulden't she say something like... Can you help me Superman ?, I need some help do you have any ideas ?, or even I would love it if you gave me some advese Superman ?. Some anything whould be better then that.

#26 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kid_Omega_Prime said:

I can't beleve they put that in there. Coulden't she say something like... Can you help me Superman ?, I need some help do you have any ideas ?, or even I would love it if you gave me some advese Superman ?. Some anything whould be better then that.

@Ravager4 said:

@fodigg said:

For the record, the above sequence has been shopped to make it... well, dirtier. That last line should say "But I haven't", not... well, an implication that she wants Superman to "fill her hole". Not saying it makes the excuse any better, but yeah.

#27 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: did you really just say that at least you see people wearing those really i don't see alot of people wearing spandex costumes seriously for anything other than cosplay so your argument isn't only invalid its just dumb

#28 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

PG was done better in that regard than other characters who had racy look-at-my-figure costumes (e.g., Ms Marvel). Like pre-revamp Starfire, she was one of the characters who could get away with it because some good writers made it work with the character personality, but to claim that her costume wasn't cheesecake when it had a friggin boob window to highlight her most-common-superpower or that her ultra-curvy figure didn't originate from a juvenile game played by an artist who wanted to see what they could get away with (or so the urban legend goes) is, in my opinion, putting the blinders on a little bit. The fans did not start that, the creators did. Yes, the situation can absolutely be redeemed by good writing—and has in the past, which is why I highlighted Amanda Conner's work—but it can also drag the character down to the lowest common denominator.

...

I wouldn't hold up Catwoman as sexy done right. Especially after the revamp. As for your points about "she's curvy! they're boobs! what's the problem?", well that doesn't mean they need a boob window to highlight the damn things. Everything good thing about PG can be delivered without it, so if it's a problem at all—and it is because it's a barrier to entry when general audience fans feel it means they can write the character off—well why not ditch it?

Also, I don't know if you intended this or not, but I resent the implication that if you don't like the boob window that you're some sort of fake Power Girl fan. I read it, I like the character, I don't like the boob window. That's a perfectly valid perspective.

Get away with what? Having big boobs and showing them off a little? Why does that have to be written a certain way to justify it? They are boobs! They are comic characters! Why do people try to pour cold water on female comic book characters?

Comic books have always been sensationalist and risque back to the 1930s. That's what comic books are: entertainment! Other media - movies, television, novels, computer games - also feature boobs, along with all the other things which draw audiences in.

A boob window doesn't make a costume cheesecake. A "friggin" boob window is a regular feature in women's fashion. Nobody calls that cheesecake. And we are talking about a costume here, which is not even normal fashion and therefore has even more excuse for being exotic.

That "superpower" article is just the kind of childish or politicized attitude I am talking about.We have these feminists and moralists standing by with tape measures to monitor bust size and costume designs. It's like the old matrons who measured the hem lengths of young ladies skirts.

Yes that canard about Wally Wood is a myth. You only have to flip through those issues yourself to see that, though there are a couple of issues around that time where her boobs suddenly double in size (which is nothing to complain about). Back then her boobs were not so big to begin with.That began with Bart Sears in the late 80's/early 90's and even he didn't usually draw them excessively big. So no, her boob size did not begin as a juvenile artist's joke. She had that physique from her first appearance.

I'm not holding up Catwoman as "done right" (though I don't see anything wrong), my point was that nobody complains about her enormous boobs spilling out of the zipper of her tight leather body-suit, yet PG gets a boob widow and look out everybody!

We don't need a boob window but that is not a reason to object to a boob window. Why not highlight her boobs? What does getting rid of the boob window achieve? It's not like spandex can hide boobs the size of PG's anyway. Remember the yellow-and-white jumpsuit? It made Wally West's eyes pop out when he first saw her in it and commented how tightly it was stretched over her boobs. Actually, West was also horny over PG when he first met her, wearing the low-cut version of her costume.

It's not non-readers or potential readers of PG who have a hang-up about her boobs, except for the feminist-influenced slut-shamers who object to the slightest "sexualization" of any female superhero. I mostly hear it from PG fans who are overly conscious of what non-fans might think. They are either afraid that PG's boobs are what are hurting her popularity and sales or afraid that other people will get the wrong impression about why they like the character because the first thing they notice is her boobs. So they say get rid of the boobs so that people can see her other good qualities.

Okay, here is my solution: STOP CARING ABOUT WHAT NON-READERS THINK AND JUST ENJOY READING PG FOR WHAT SHE IS. She can have good qualities as well as big boobs - and a boob window in her costume if she, her artists or her readers like it. The non-readers will eventually catch on. Be brave!

I don't know where I implied that fans who don't like the boob window are fake. All I'm talking about is the people who have a hang-up about it for no good reason, fans and non-fans. If you don't like the window, fine, but don't try to rationalize it and tell me why I shouldn't like it either. Personally I don't care that much whether she has a boob window - PG looks fine in any respectably designed costume.

#29 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: what difference does it make whether or not its a there's a hole in it or a low cut top i mean come on you're are okay with grown men running around in latex suits but not a chick with a hole in her costume that shows off her boobs and the new PG costume looks dumb regardless of the boob window or not its one of the worst most uncreative costumes I've ever seen

The problem with the boob window is that it is ridiculous (whereas with low-cut tops you at least see people wearing those regularly) and it essentially makes her cleavage her superhero symbol. And when you see writers (good ones even) having to bend over backwards to try and explain it away in the most ridiculous ways possible—

—it is very frustrating. Now, I won't defend the costume they came up with as a replacement for the revamp, but if they could come up with something that actually looks good and shows off her figure without me ever having to read a sequence like the above again, I'd appreciate that. And I think that would be a boon to the character and help her reach a wider audience.

So your idea of what is an acceptable in a superhero costume is whatever is acceptable in regular clothing? The whole idea of a costume is that it is different to regular clothing in both appearance (to stand out) and function. That's why Superman and Batman don't wear dinner suits when they fight crime.

You have shifted your objection to the boob window from it "sexualizing" her to "not being normal" in regular clothing. Boob windows are a feature in regular clothing. They are not ridiculous. Many other superheroines have boob windows too, or have their costumes split wide at the front down to their navels. The reason why nobody objects to those in most cases is that the wearers have smaller boobs, so showing more of them "doesn't matter". So really it is PG's boob size which you are making an issue of. Women with big boobs must keep them well covered.

Writers shouldn't have to explain the boob window away. There is nothing to explain. You shouldn't have to read a sequence like that again.What was stupid about it was that it attempted to explain the window at all. Do writers try to explain why Superman wears his pants on the outside of his suit? That's not a regular clothing style either.

Long before the stupid explanation above was pushed on us, there was another, more sensible (though equally unnecessary) "explanation". Crimson Fox made a comment about PG's "front window" and PG defended it by saying that it shows that she is female and doesn't care if men notice. The only reason she bothered to justify it was that CF commented - the same comment her readers still make now. It should have stopped there.

That's all the reason any woman needs to wear a top with a boob window, or any other revealing item of clothing, like a mini-skirt. I don't know if you have ever noticed, but women's fashion has frequently been contrived to show off their boobs for about the past four thousand years, along with certain other distinguishing parts of their bodies.Get past it!

#30 Posted by BatWatch (2762 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerGirlFan:

You are wrong in many ways.

First, the purpose of a costume is not merely to look different. For the best hero costumes, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, a costume is meant to be a symbol. With this in mind, Power Girl's symbol is her boobs which is why she is constantly mocked for it. If the purpose was merely to look different, then heroes would look like Lady Gaga.

Second, I and many others object to all costumes that display women's boobies.

Third, writers actually do explain different costume oddities of different characters.

Fourth, any woman who displays her body like Power Girl most definitely cares about what men think.

Fifth, there are very few situations wherein it would be acceptable for a woman to wear a costume like Power Girl's, and in those few situations, it would be because the woman wanted to display her body like a piece of meat to attract attention.

#31 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: did you really just say that at least you see people wearing those really i don't see alot of people wearing spandex costumes seriously for anything other than cosplay so your argument isn't only invalid its just dumb

So you're basically saying anything should go because hey, comics? I'm not sure I agree with that. I've had quite enough stripper-wear and chainmail bikini.

@PowerGirlFan:

Wow. Those are two extremely long posts. And you say you don't care either way, that's pretty funny.

I will simply say that I don't know what you're trying to catch me at here. I don't like the boob window because it's sexualizing, and I'm supporting that by pointing out that there's no precedent for it in regular clothing, so it's clearly put there specifically to sexualize the character. Where's the confusion?

You've got a lotta rage against "feminist-influenced slut-shamers" (but wait, doesn't the term 'slut shamer' have feminist origins? so are feminists good or bad here?), but all I see there is a strawman for you to rail against. I have nothing against cheesecake, but a cheesecake costume does have an impact on how a character is perceived by the readership, by the general audience, and should matter in how the character is perceived by other characters. Good writers can handle that well—and some have with PG in the past—but some of us would like PG to move on from the boob gags, at least for a while.

That's all I'm saying. No need to write a novel about how super-reverse-feminists are trying to eradicate sexiness.

#32 Posted by MrShway88 (655 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry but is "cheesecake" another word for sex appeal? I have never heard this slang before.

#33 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@MrShway88 said:

I'm sorry but is "cheesecake" another word for sex appeal? I have never heard this slang before.

Artistic style—costuming, posing, proportions—explicitly to titillate. Term has origins in 1940s pinup style but that's all I know about it. Male equivalent is usually "beefcake".

#34 Edited by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@PsychoKnights said:

@PowerGirlFan:

You are wrong in many ways.

First, the purpose of a costume is not merely to look different. For the best hero costumes, Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, a costume is meant to be a symbol. With this in mind, Power Girl's symbol is her boobs which is why she is constantly mocked for it. If the purpose was merely to look different, then heroes would look like Lady Gaga.

Second, I and many others object to all costumes that display women's boobies.

Third, writers actually do explain different costume oddities of different characters.

Fourth, any woman who displays her body like Power Girl most definitely cares about what men think.

Fifth, there are very few situations wherein it would be acceptable for a woman to wear a costume like Power Girl's, and in those few situations, it would be because the woman wanted to display her body like a piece of meat to attract attention.

You are being pretty technical here.

(1) are you saying the costume is a symbol or that the costume has a symbol on it? Are all female superheroes whose costumes show cleavage (e.g.Wonder Woman) therefore symbolized by their boobs? Do they all get mocked?

No and no, because women's apparel has always drawn attention to their boobs and other distinctive parts of their bodies - it's just a normal feature of women's clothing. Clothing design is aesthetic as well as functional.It does so in various ways, boob windows just being one of them. Therefore female superhero costumes do the same.

PG's boobs aren't part of her costume, they are just partly visible through it, so if her costume is her symbol, then her boobs are not. QED.

What you appear to be concerned about is not how visible PG's boobs are, but how big they are. You would not object to a character with normal-sized boobs having a costume with a boob window. You don't like PG's boob widow because it draws attention to their size.

Costumes are for creatig a different appearance. They can be symbols too, but there is no contradiction - the whole idea of a symbol is it's distinctive appearance, it is identifiable. I think Superman's costume is as different from normal menswear as Lady Ga-Ga's costumes are from normal ladies' wear. If not, then it is different enough.

(2) It doesn't matter how many people object to costumes that display boobs if you don't have any sensible reason for it. You are going against thousands of years of women's fashion and costume design. It's nothing more than a cheerful acknowledgement that women have boobs. It's not oppressive or immoral.

(3) A boob window isn't an oddity.

(4) All women (and men too) display their bodies according to what others think. So what? This applies equally to women who wear clothes which cover their bodies. You talk as if PG displays her boobs to tell men that she is easy (which she is now, sans window).

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/198/4480/640/jle%203.jpg

(5) There are relatively few situations where most women do wear costumes. That's why they are called costumes. Many theatrical costumes are revealing of the female form and bare skin. You are comparig PG's costume to regular, ever-day clothing and even then it compares better than you claim it does.

#35 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said

@PowerGirlFan:

Wow. Those are two extremely long posts. And you say you don't care either way, that's pretty funny.

I will simply say that I don't know what you're trying to catch me at here. I don't like the boob window because it's sexualizing, and I'm supporting that by pointing out that there's no precedent for it in regular clothing, so it's clearly put there specifically to sexualize the character. Where's the confusion?

You've got a lotta rage against "feminist-influenced slut-shamers" (but wait, doesn't the term 'slut shamer' have feminist origins? so are feminists good or bad here?), but all I see there is a strawman for you to rail against. I have nothing against cheesecake, but a cheesecake costume does have an impact on how a character is perceived by the readership, by the general audience, and should matter in how the character is perceived by other characters. Good writers can handle that well—and some have with PG in the past—but some of us would like PG to move on from the boob gags, at least for a while.

That's all I'm saying. No need to write a novel about how super-reverse-feminists are trying to eradicate sexiness.

It's not the boob window I care about, it's people's attitude to it. Those posts are long because that's how long it takes to unpack the contorted justifications people make for this attitude.

There is no confusion. You are simply wrong that there is no precedent for PG's boob window in regular clothing and wrong that costumes should be like regular clothing, because the whole point of costume is that it is NOT regular clothing. You are also wrong to criticize both costumes and regular clothes for being "sexualizing". Many features of regular women's clothing is "sexualizing", but not in the sense that it turns them into purely sexual objects, just that it accentuates or reveals their sex. Have you lived in Afghanistan your whole life?

I am aware of the irony of feminists being slut-shamers. I don't expect consistent logic from feminists. They often do best what they denounce other people for doing, they just call it something else. The article you linked to earlier about "superpowers" is a good example of feminists trying to "eradicate sexiness". You probably could write an entertaining novel about that.

By "move on from the boob gags" you mean PG should change because of other people's wrong perceptions. It's not as if PG's stories were all boob gags. The boob gags didn't even start until the late 80's.

Whether or not her costume is "cheesecake" is academic and unimportant. That is too much hair-splitting for comics or any other kind of literature or entertainment. There are no definite boundaries between "cheesecake" and other styles of entertainment. One could argue that Wonder Woman and Catwoman are cheesecake. In fact, just about any female superhero costume could be characterized as cheesecake. Any women's swimsuit or gym wear could be classed as cheesecake depending on the setting. I don't care if it is cheesecake, because it is comics, not real life, and the same rules don't apply.

#36 Posted by Darkmount1 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

It's stuff like this (and forum topics like this) that make me wish DC had done more with PG pre-New 52. I think they should've done an animated sitdramedy based on the Palmiotti/Gray/Conner run, it would've been a hit!

#37 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

^ I won't argue with that.

#38 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: im not saying hey its comics im just saying if you can accept grown men running around in tights or dick grayson in the original robin costume that had the short shorts why not accept a hole in a costume that happens to be around the boobs i mean in all seriousness it actually looks kinda cool to me

#39 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: im not saying hey its comics im just saying if you can accept grown men running around in tights or dick grayson in the original robin costume that had the short shorts why not accept a hole in a costume that happens to be around the boobs i mean in all seriousness it actually looks kinda cool to me

Because while men can be sexualized they are rarely done so in the same way as women. Often the presentation of men is a male power fantasy, not a female sexual fantasy. The overabundance of cheesecake on female superheroes makes it tiring and me less sympathetic toward it. While I maintain that cheesecake is not inherently good or bad and that it's context and quality of writing that determines quality, it's perfectly legitimate to find something like the boob window irksome and to want it gone.

@PowerGirlFan said:

@fodigg said

@PowerGirlFan:

Wow. Those are two extremely long posts. And you say you don't care either way, that's pretty funny.

I will simply say that I don't know what you're trying to catch me at here. I don't like the boob window because it's sexualizing, and I'm supporting that by pointing out that there's no precedent for it in regular clothing, so it's clearly put there specifically to sexualize the character. Where's the confusion?

You've got a lotta rage against "feminist-influenced slut-shamers" (but wait, doesn't the term 'slut shamer' have feminist origins? so are feminists good or bad here?), but all I see there is a strawman for you to rail against. I have nothing against cheesecake, but a cheesecake costume does have an impact on how a character is perceived by the readership, by the general audience, and should matter in how the character is perceived by other characters. Good writers can handle that well—and some have with PG in the past—but some of us would like PG to move on from the boob gags, at least for a while.

That's all I'm saying. No need to write a novel about how super-reverse-feminists are trying to eradicate sexiness.

It's not the boob window I care about, it's people's attitude to it. Those posts are long because that's how long it takes to unpack the contorted justifications people make for this attitude.

There is no confusion. You are simply wrong that there is no precedent for PG's boob window in regular clothing and wrong that costumes should be like regular clothing, because the whole point of costume is that it is NOT regular clothing. You are also wrong to criticize both costumes and regular clothes for being "sexualizing". Many features of regular women's clothing is "sexualizing", but not in the sense that it turns them into purely sexual objects, just that it accentuates or reveals their sex. Have you lived in Afghanistan your whole life?

I am aware of the irony of feminists being slut-shamers. I don't expect consistent logic from feminists. They often do best what they denounce other people for doing, they just call it something else. The article you linked to earlier about "superpowers" is a good example of feminists trying to "eradicate sexiness". You probably could write an entertaining novel about that.

By "move on from the boob gags" you mean PG should change because of other people's wrong perceptions. It's not as if PG's stories were all boob gags. The boob gags didn't even start until the late 80's.

Whether or not her costume is "cheesecake" is academic and unimportant. That is too much hair-splitting for comics or any other kind of literature or entertainment. There are no definite boundaries between "cheesecake" and other styles of entertainment. One could argue that Wonder Woman and Catwoman are cheesecake. In fact, just about any female superhero costume could be characterized as cheesecake. Any women's swimsuit or gym wear could be classed as cheesecake depending on the setting. I don't care if it is cheesecake, because it is comics, not real life, and the same rules don't apply.

Once again, you've labeled me as contradictory strawmen. Am I a feminist or am I a conservative who "lived in Afghanistan [my] whole life"? Which is it? You're just throwing labels out without sufficiently addressing the argument. You're also trying to blame the problem on those who are offended for being offended. That doesn't make sense, and you could use that bad logic to excuse literally any type of offensive behavior. Finally, you top off your whole post by claiming that to complain about or discuss this topic is pointless because entertainment is harmless and above critique, ignoring the fact that trends in entertainment have an impact on real life attitudes. You have presented a real train-wreck of an argument here.

#40 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Once again, you've labeled me as contradictory strawmen. Am I a feminist or am I a conservative who "lived in Afghanistan [my] whole life"? Which is it? You're just throwing labels out without sufficiently addressing the argument. You're also trying to blame the problem on those who are offended for being offended. That doesn't make sense, and you could use that bad logic to excuse literally any type of offensive behavior. Finally, you top off your whole post by claiming that to complain about or discuss this topic is pointless because entertainment is harmless and above critique, ignoring the fact that trends in entertainment have an impact on real life attitudes. You have presented a real train-wreck of an argument here.

To me feminists are conservative, in the sense that they want strict social controls and want to impose their own type of morality (political correctness). They are radical in the sense that they want a fundamental change in social structure.

I don't know which angle you are approaching this from but you did post a link to a feminist article about female superhero boob size and costumes. Your complaint also seems to be based on the notion that women with big boobs and clothes which display them cannot be taken seriously, or that female characters are depicted that way for the purpose of sexually objectifying women. Which implies that women who choose to dress that way in real life are denigrating themselves and are presumably under the influence of sexist attitudes in society.

This type of political ideological analysing does not belong in comics or any other form of entertainment, though entertainment (including comics) is very frequently used as a vehicle for political ideological messages.

It is equally wrong to falsely charge somebody for causing you offense. If you criticize how PG is characterized, then I am entitled to defend it. There is nothing offensive about the way PG is depicted by normal standards. I am criticizing you for pretending that a little cleavage is offensive. Why should it offend you that a character is given a costume with a boob window? Would you be offended if a woman wore a costume with a boob window in real life? It is her choice what she wears, not yours, and I don't see how a boob window could cause you offense.

I didn't say that entertainment is harmless and above critique. That is ridiculous. I am saying that entertainment should not be judged by real life standards, since entertainment is not real life. In this case, most women would probably not frequently wear a tight spandex costume with a boob window for everyday business. But then, most women in real life are not superheroes. However, it would not be offensive and it would not be fair to think less of them if they did so.

#41 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerGirlFan said:

@fodigg said:

Once again, you've labeled me as contradictory strawmen. Am I a feminist or am I a conservative who "lived in Afghanistan [my] whole life"? Which is it? You're just throwing labels out without sufficiently addressing the argument. You're also trying to blame the problem on those who are offended for being offended. That doesn't make sense, and you could use that bad logic to excuse literally any type of offensive behavior. Finally, you top off your whole post by claiming that to complain about or discuss this topic is pointless because entertainment is harmless and above critique, ignoring the fact that trends in entertainment have an impact on real life attitudes. You have presented a real train-wreck of an argument here.

To me feminists are conservative, in the sense that they want strict social controls and want to impose their own type of morality (political correctness). They are radical in the sense that they want a fundamental change in social structure.

I don't know which angle you are approaching this from but you did post a link to a feminist article about female superhero boob size and costumes. Your complaint also seems to be based on the notion that women with big boobs and clothes which display them cannot be taken seriously, or that female characters are depicted that way for the purpose of sexually objectifying women. Which implies that women who choose to dress that way in real life are denigrating themselves and are presumably under the influence of sexist attitudes in society.

This type of political ideological analysing does not belong in comics or any other form of entertainment, though entertainment (including comics) is very frequently used as a vehicle for political ideological messages.

It is equally wrong to falsely charge somebody for causing you offense. If you criticize how PG is characterized, then I am entitled to defend it. There is nothing offensive about the way PG is depicted by normal standards. I am criticizing you for pretending that a little cleavage is offensive. Why should it offend you that a character is given a costume with a boob window? Would you be offended if a woman wore a costume with a boob window in real life? It is her choice what she wears, not yours, and I don't see how a boob window could cause you offense.

I didn't say that entertainment is harmless and above critique. That is ridiculous. I am saying that entertainment should not be judged by real life standards, since entertainment is not real life. In this case, most women would probably not frequently wear a tight spandex costume with a boob window for everyday business. But then, most women in real life are not superheroes. However, it would not be offensive and it would not be fair to think less of them if they did so.

You're calling TVTropes a feminist site? Yeah, okay, I'm gonna walk away from this crazy-train. You keep on fighting the evil agenda and pretending that PG is a real person who chooses what she wants to wear instead of a fictional character who has her wardrobe chosen for her by an overwhelmingly male industry though.

#42 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: what are you talking about men with power and confidence is women's sexual fantasy

and the DCU is full of those Bruce Wayne, Lex Luthor, Oliver King all depicted as extremely handsome men that are geniuses with riches, ambition, and overwhelming confidence. Those are the type of men women like it just so happens those are also the type of men other guys admire so why cant there female characters that are depicted as extremely sexually attractive

#43 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: what are you talking about men with power and confidence is women's sexual fantasy

and the DCU is full of those Bruce Wayne, Lex Luthor, Oliver King all depicted as extremely handsome men that are geniuses with riches, ambition, and overwhelming confidence. Those are the type of men women like it just so happens those are also the type of men other guys admire so why cant there female characters that are depicted as extremely sexually attractive

I'm saying there's a difference between this:

—and this:

See the difference? The latter image is what men would be drawn as if they were sexualized to the same degree in the same way. There are examples of this in mainstream comics (e.g., Catman, Nightwing sometimes) but they are very rare.

#44 Edited by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

The boob window was awesome because Power Girl doesn't let it define her. Neither would a good writer. She kicks a**, is an awesome character, and just happens to have enormous, visually present breast. It could be a giant mole, a large backside, or thick Hathaway-eybrows, work whatcha' got. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your body, especially if that body can tank nuclear blast. Confidence is sexy.

@fodigg: I don't know. If Batman came at me like that, I don't think me scoffing at sexualization would help

#45 Edited by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: dude first of all most of the people who read comics are guys and second of all women don't think sexually the same way men do so that would be a fruitless pursuit as a just explain women think personality power ambition and intelligence are attractive men think tits and ass are attractive so making the male costumes more revealing wouldn't really have any affect on anyone no guy would care and no girl would find it attractive

#46 Posted by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

You're calling TVTropes a feminist site? Yeah, okay, I'm gonna walk away from this crazy-train. You keep on fighting the evil agenda and pretending that PG is a real person who chooses what she wants to wear instead of a fictional character who has her wardrobe chosen for her by an overwhelmingly male industry though.

On reading the TVTropes entry you linked to earlier, I agree that it is not feminist. I interpreted it that way because so often it is feminists making noise about boob size/visibility in comics. But that article actually works in defense of my position, since it points out that big boobs and costumes which draw attention to them are a universal feature of female superheroes. So why single out PG?

I was not arguing that PG chooses her own costumes and not the artists who draw her. My point was that if women in real life choose to wear clothes which show off their boobs, why can't a fictional character be written to choose the same? Especially since entertainment is supposed to be more exciting than real life and is not bound by real-life circumstances.

And yes that added excitement is to do with males being a large part of the audience. Males are almost half the population of the planet and are therefore entitled to be entertained - in a way that specifically excites them. You talk as if there is something wrong with being male. That's where the feminism starts - with things like "the male gaze", as if nature made a mistake by giving males the sexual feelings peculiar to them.

#47 Edited by PowerGirlFan (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

See the difference? The latter image is what men would be drawn as if they were sexualized to the same degree in the same way. There are examples of this in mainstream comics (e.g., Catman, Nightwing sometimes) but they are very rare.

Wrong again. Women are aroused by romance and personal attributes rather than physical ones. Romance novels are pornography for women - the female counterpart of Playboy and XXX videos. The male characters in those trashy novels are as unrealistic as the Playmate who happens to be washing her Ferrari in a G-string when you visit her house and gets turned on by having you watch her. No self-respecting male would conform to the type of male women fantasize about any more than any smart, attractive woman would give herself to the first average Joe who happens along or be wearing only a G-string in public.

Not being a woman, I can't directly judge from my standpoint but DC being the savvy marketers they are I think it is no accident that most male superheroes are powerful, capable as well as sensitive and frequently find themselves in romantic situations - which could be anything from saving a woman in distress to a full-blown relationship. That's not thrown in for the libidinous male readership, though it appeals to their other emotions. Even with marketing aside, most stories are written for both men and women to enjoy and therefore contain things which appeal romantically and sexually to both.

Therefore, in the interests of gender equity, PG should show off her boobs.

More recently they have the growing gay audience covered too, much to the disinterest or dislike of many straight readers. (I could definitely do without those panels with GL embracing or talking house with his late BF). Perhaps that is who Nightwing is aimed at. The second drawing in your post looks like a Pride march costume.

#48 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg:

Loving your posts. I've been reading along so consider this post of mine as a great big QFT for each of yours.

:)

#49 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

The boob window was awesome because Power Girl doesn't let it define her. Neither would a good writer. She kicks a**, is an awesome character, and just happens to have enormous, visually present breast. It could be a giant mole, a large backside, or thick Hathaway-eybrows, work whatcha' got. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your body, especially if that body can tank nuclear blast. Confidence is sexy.

Ideally this is how it's handled. However, even in the Amanda Conner run and other excellent runs, it had to be referenced frequently either in attempts to prove just how much it didn't matter or to use it as a punchline.

@fodigg: I don't know. If Batman came at me like that, I don't think me scoffing at sexualization would help

lol! Batman's scary regardless of wardrobe at this point.

@eippihrellik said:

@fodigg: dude first of all most of the people who read comics are guys and second of all women don't think sexually the same way men do so that would be a fruitless pursuit as a just explain women think personality power ambition and intelligence are attractive men think tits and ass are attractive so making the male costumes more revealing wouldn't really have any affect on anyone no guy would care and no girl would find it attractive

More women read superhero comics than you think, maybe even more would read if writers and artists didn't act like it was a men's club, and regardless of the previous points it is worthwhile for all readers for creators to put out better books than just what appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Also, you are generalizing wildly here. So women don't find sexy-bodied men attractive and men only go for t&a cheesecake? Yeah, okay. Well then somebody can tell Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth "no thanks, we're good."

@PowerGirlFan said:

Therefore, in the interests of gender equity, PG should show off her boobs.

I don't really need to reply to you anymore because I can just highlight quotes like this and it makes my point without saying it.

@lykopis said:

@fodigg:

Loving your posts. I've been reading along so consider this post of mine as a great big QFT for each of yours.

:)

Thanks!

#50 Posted by eippihrellik (271 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: First off its not my fault women have a problem with sexual themed things and evans and hemsworth are actors dummy they have established careers they arent just regular dudes if they were regular guys you might have a point but they arent but as a man i am attracted to any hot chick so its not a generalization why is that so hard to accept

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