Tony, Sara and Corey discuss this week's comics included a certain two DC 'New 52' books that people have been talking about. Find out how we felt about those and the rest of this week's books as well as man teeth.
This is going to be the first time I've ever listened to the Comic Vine podcast, super excited :D
They get pretty good, especially when the pervy english man joins them LOL!   If I had a dollar for everytime the word sex was mentioned I would have all of the comics out this week with the money! =( I was unable to find a copy of sexy catwoman ANYWHERE.Â
HA! When I first saw the image of the mouth I thought it was a woman's. Heh, I haven't gotten the comic yet... its on hold. But I am looking forward to it. Love Ed McGuinness art, so hearing that makes me that much more excited.
I know the shows been off the air for a while, and I also haven't read as much of the original Titans stuff with Starfire in it, but I think its a little odd that she is presented on the show one way and in the comics now she seems different. Like she was very kid friendly on Teen Titans cartoon, sweet, eternally optomistic, and in the comics now she is not very kid friendly.
What I was wondering was, in recent years, when have comics not been more mature? The average age of comic readers is about 36 or something, I heard, and the stories are more for adults. There is sex and violence and subject matter that little kids shouldn't read or understand. I am not saying that stuff has no place in comics, but comics aren't exactly kid stuff anymore.
I doubt that the movie, studio, prop designers, everyone, would go to those lengths to make giant props like the plane thing, and Bane's costume with the actual actor in it, and what not just to mislead us. But they did, in Begins, design toys and statues (mass produced and sold) of the fake Ras al Ghul.
Ultimates started out as a way to relaunch and restart all of Marvel while still keeping their regular titles, having your cake and eating it too. It was Spider-Man starting at 0, X-Men at 0, etc. Thats what it was. They then updated things like making it a genetically altered spider, Bendis said that back then the fear was atomic energy and radiation and space, now its genetics. So they updated everything, updated things. Later they started messing with things to make it different because you can't have the stories exactly the same just updated, so they changed Green Goblin to a monster, and they changed the roster of the X-men and stuff like that. But this is sort of DC's relaunch without actually having to relaunch because you have the actual comic still going on. While Ultimate Spider-Man #1 was starting the other Peter Parker thought MJ died in a plane crash and was being tortured to become the new Green Goblin by Norman Osborne. But at first the Ultimate comics were relaunches. It wasn't till later when people started losing interest that they really changed things with Ultimatum, and now changing things yet again with the new Ultimate stuff.
If the New 52 doesn't pan out DC could just have it all be an alternate timeline that Flash accidentally ran into or altered when he left Flashpoint. Like in Quantum Leap where he is trying to get home but just isn't home yet, or on Back to the Future where because he altered something everything changed. And when they want to they can have Flash fix everything and have it all return to "Normal" with the return of Superman and whatnot... like with Marvel's Heroes Reborn. Eventually things went back to normal and Marvel made a big thing about them returning. They can even use the purple lady that keeps popping up. Thats if things aren't going right and they want an out, but if things go well they could just keep it the way it is.
Some titles in Marvel I could see getting totally rebooted somehow, like the X-men. for me the X-Men seem like they are totally different than the team of mutants who save and protect a world that fears and hates them to try and earn their trust. And it seems like, I don't want to say convoluted or drifting, but its not something I can get into right now. I am not sure what other titles, FF seems to have some story going on about the loss of Johnny and retiring the Fantastic Four and becoming the Future Foundation, and the Avengers seem to have some thing that has been sort of going on since Civil War leading to Dark Raign to Heroic Age to Fear and now whatever comes out of the Fear thing.
I too have always liked Marvel more than DC. I think it might come from DC being first, and having all their heroes be square jawed heroes who are good and all their villains be evil, and having all of them be the same character. (I learned this in a comic history class in college.) Not that it is a bad thing just thats how you did comics back then. And then Marvel made all their heroes have feet of clay and have character and problems, then DC did the same. In a documentary they said that DC heroes always seemed like parents while Marvel's characters always seemed like teenagers (not in age but in how the related to the readers). Plus its what you guys said, DC heroes always seemed like Gods from Mt. Olympus while Marvel's heroes always seemed like humans given powers.
Greg Capullo's art was better than I thought it would be but his villains looked kind of bad. A darker Ed McGinnis is a great way to describe it. Last page made me roll my eyes could not buy it as a good cliffhanger.
Still have a problem with Dick going back to Nightwing really good potential for stories that I feel he just went back to being Nightwing because it was status quo and not because it was interesting. I know the argument that Bruce made Batman because he needed it but the whole point of the last few years is that Batman is something he uses not something he is.
It sounds like Starfire got butchered by Lobdell. I know she comes from a race without taboo's but there is a difference between being sexually liberated and bad characterization. As for Jason Todd I do not think he just uses sex as a tool. In Red Hood The Lost Days I figured he got his feelings about relationships screwed up. I think many fans have such different views of him because he had such a drastic return and vastly different stories that fans can't figure him out or he is not judged by his behavior and fans give another reason why he did something and the reasons they give may not be on page.
I doubt Marion Cotillard is Talia or Joseph Gordon Levitt is anything more than a cop. Nolan really would not use the same trick in Batman Begins.
Fuck Joe Quesada. I do know that as a reader what I've seen from Marvel like Spider-Man or the X-Men I know that it seems needlessly complicated with continuity and putting themselves in corners intentionally while just using death and rebirth/renumber style stories to say they changed.
Not many fans are probably going to miss New Krypton. Who cares if a story did not happen in official DC continuity? Does it take away from the current stories? Have DC went into everyone's homes and taken away books? I think fans should not be concerned over whether or not some fictional events happened and should concentrate on if a book is good.
Poor Matt... he has given fives before, I remember him giving a 5 to Secret Six #36, which was much deserved.
Red Hood and the Outlaws! I knew it!!! Starfire's not a person, she's now a mindless tamaran skankatronic sexbot. And Roy Harper should flip his hair since he has longer hair.
What's left!? Both breasts hanging out!!! WOOO! Don't judge a book by the bra lol
I have a feeling there is something more to Starfire's personality and actions. She was basically sold off as slave if I'm correct so she has scars from the past, her appearing cold and "easy". I bet a few issues in and possibly even the next one we'll see a reason for her actions, it's still the first issue so they got time. Than again I don't know a lot about comics so maybe they did fuck that character up to the point of no return.
Kevin Smith pointed speculated that it was Dark Knight Rises stuff is a smokescreen a while ago in one of his podcasts.
With regards to DC confirming what stuff did and didn't happen it seems to me that it was a lot of people asking "did this happen" "did that happen" and everyone was worrying about that they finally had to say yes and no so people actually started paying attention to the story instead of spending time wondering what is still canon. I mean its kinda weird to complain when you get an answer to a question you ask, and even if you didn't ask the question someone did.
Liked the pod, didn't agree with some of the reviews but i realize that my opinions are skewed sometimes
@G-Man Even as I was reading it for the first time I felt like there is more here than what they are letting on. The whole issue in general has a very light action movie feel to it and I think that was deliberate so that later on when we do start seeing these characters, Starfire in particular, develop it will have a greater impact.
I get the writer was probably trying to write her as a strong confident sexual woman, but she did come across as very devoid of emotion and rather objectified, not caring or remembering who she had sex with be it Roy, Jason, or someone else. She was just there for blowing things up and fanservice while Roy and Jason ogle her like a couple of frat boys, which made them seem rather out of character as well. It was just handled so poorly. As someone who wasn’t even a fan of her character I was pretty turned off by it. You wouldn't expect this from someone who has been on Earth for 3-4 years and was a Titan. Though I thought the drastic change of her personality/memory were much larger problems than the sex/fanserice (both have always been associated with her anyway) given how that alters her past and old relationships with characters like Dick and Donna.
Also with DC’s focus on it not being a reboot (which it is in so many ways) and not telling origin stories, even if something happened recently to cause her character to change so much it probably won’t be addressed for some time. And it would just be bad writing to chock it all up to being trauma from getting sold into slavery after already being on Earth for so long. Plus if there is some trauma involved it doesn't make Jason and Roy look very good if they took advantage of her while something was/is wrong with her. It probably would have been better to just completely reboot her character where she recently escaped enslavement and not try to fit her previous history in with her new characterization, if not just remove her from the book and let it just star Jason and Roy. Or better yet remove Roy as well and let it be a Jason solo series. That is what everyone wanted anyway.
As for a Marvel reboot, I might be okay with it but I would like to see a proper conclusion to at least some of the current universe’s main story lines before they switch to a new continuity. I do agree that their characters are more grounded and a reboot isn’t needed there as much as it was in DC. Though with the amount of new #1s that they launched this year I don’t see a reboot happening for a long time, unless DC’s reboot is so successful that they have to follow suit, but it is too early to know that.
Hearing Sara's take on Catwoman #1 continues to feed my "should I shouldn't I" dance with this book. My shoppe was sold out of it, so I couldn't pick it up this week, but I had always planned on reading it because I'm such a huge Judd Winick fan.
Then the issue hit, and the backlash was RIDICULOUS. At first, I felt a lot of it was justified, but as I examined a lot of the outcry closer, a lot of it made even less sense than people defending it. In the end, I think I'm just gonna read the issue and decide for myself. Same will probably go for Red Hood and the Outlaws.
I agree with Sara that the animated version of the Riddler is my favorite. I don't know if I'd call him debonair. Arrogant, yes. He's overly confident in his own intellect. What breaks his facade is that Batman was is smarter. I see it as an example of how someone who takes pride in seeing himself as the smartest man in the world reacts when he comes across someone much smarter.
I love it when a writer teases at something long before explaining it. Some things are best left unknown for some time. Even if the payoff is unfulfilled. It's far better than a writer teasing something that never gets explained. I actually wish they had teased a bit more with Barbara's new villain. I felt they gave away his theme for murder too quickly.
My feelings against Dick being Batman comes from the fact that Bruce is Batman. Anyone else is a poor imitation.
The direction they are taking Wonder Woman is incredibly intriguing. I know the story of what brought about the minotaur............ You don't want to know. I like when they can really display Wonder Woman as a warrior.
I think the way Bruce and Selina are portrayed are well done. She doesn't want to talk about her feelings. Bruce is the same. Bruce isolates himself, and Selina distracts
Gratuitous, I think, is left up to the individual's perspective. An editorial on the matter would just be from that person's view. Which is already the basic definition of an editorial.
I am passionately against reboots. It's lazy. That being said. I would get a certain level of satisfaction seeing all of Quesada's work on Spider-man wiped away. Hell, I might even be interested in buying it again if that happened.
It's far, far too early to be saying the DC reboot is a success. Not even a month has passed. Sales are up because attention is up. It's the same way with a certain politician's book or a reality TV stars book gets high sales after the news and celebrity gossip shows are talking about it all the time. Now, if these numbers persist in a few months or in six months their sales are better than they were a year from then. That's when you can call it a success. It is a reboot. They just want to avoid the stigma that comes with the term.
here we go again where sex is taboo..and inappropriate...but you're fine reading about violence and rape..and seeing violence and whatnot with superhero's fighting each other.
but a natural thing between two consenting adults is inappropriate? give me an eff'n break G-Man.
This country is so ass-backwards it's embarrassing. Violence and death is ok! but two people having sex, which is natural, doesn't belong? LMMFAO
@Norusdog: While I would've worded it differently I agree with you. People don't seem to mind the killing and shooting but if the next panel happens to have someone in a swimsuit or having sex people complain.
@Norusdog: Thanks for respecting my opinion and views on being a father. Although I can't remember saying it was fine to read about violence and rape. Who actually brought rape up? How old are your kids?
I think the affection for Judd Winick found it's way into the defense of Catwoman #1. Sara, you're the best, but I gotta admit I was stunned that you weren't all over this. Selina didn't come across as sexy at all to me. She was almost trashy and treated more as a spectacle or a sex object. Judd seems to equate sexy strictly with boobs, butts, and skimpy underwear. Her true character never relayed a hint of sexiness. I think the gratuitous content was a crutch to make the book feel a lot sexier than it ever was.  And that's never even considering the clear structural problems with Judd's storytelling.   And Tony, as a father of two, I see myself coming from the same perspective. And I liked Corey's comment which showed that T&A doesn't equal "Mature". Not by a long shot.
@G-Man: I know its late but last week you mentioned an American Dr. Who. And I have wondered for a while, what if America made a Dr. Who. There was the American remakes of the Office, Coupling, that show aoout a vampire, werewolf, and ghost living together. Why haven't they tried Dr. Who.
I know it would most likely fail unless they changed the name or something, also not saying I want this, but I think if they did the perfect choice to play the Doctor to start of with would be Neil Patrick Harris. He is a singer, dancer, actor, and would be great in the part I think.
here we go again where sex is taboo..and inappropriate...but you're fine reading about violence and rape..and seeing violence and whatnot with superhero's fighting each other.
but a natural thing between two consenting adults is inappropriate? give me an eff'n break G-Man.
This country is so ass-backwards it's embarrassing. Violence and death is ok! but two people having sex, which is natural, doesn't belong? LMMFAO
America is pretty weird with the violence over sexx issue, but thats the way it is here. Just like in the middle east sex is an uber no-no, and in england political-satire is actually regulated by the government. Thats just the way things are. Violence is natural too btw. Almost every living thing on this planet is capable of violence.
The reason why its something to bring up is because its used heavily as a crutch throughout the New 52. Some people are using it better than others (Catwoman was better utilized than Red Hood) but it really does seem like DC demanded nudity from their writers at a board meeting.
as Cory said, nudity and sex without context isnt maturity, its adolescent fantasy. If they are trying to make comics more mature, they should focus on the psychological state of being Catwoman is in, and not just have her jump Batman's bones simply out of lust. Im really hoping that we find out Starfire is lying and was deeply in love/heartbroken by Dick Grayson, or she was sexually abused as a slave and therefore regards sex as an ice breaker or the only way to make men like her . The "Alien Girls are Easy" idea they are going with is kinda lame...
But thats what the problem is. Not the sex, but the EMPTINESS of it. Violence in an action genre is understandable, but random pointless sex simply to stroke the male ego is immature.
@Norusdog: Thanks for respecting my opinion and views on being a father. Although I can't remember saying it was fine to read about violence and rape. Who actually brought rape up? How old are your kids?
I meant no disrespect, but I'm also not one to sugar-coat my words.
I just listened to the podcast JUST before the posting..and while I don't remember exactly who it was (but I believe it was Sarah that mentioned it) or what exactly was said..but a character being raped in the past was brought up. And neither of you batted an eyelash at it.
and you don't have to come out and say it. The fact you read comics, which ALL have violence in them (unless we're talking about the likes of Garfield et al) shows that you are ok with it. You even let your daughter read some. Which is fine.
But you're sitting there telling me you have a problem with this "pre-sex" scene and say it's inappropriate..but you're ok reading about Thor pummeling someone into submission? or Batman? or Hulk? or...anyone..because they all beat the hell out of each other....but you have a problem with a natural thing between two consenting adults such as sex?
Violence may be natural..but who does it benefit? someones getting their butt kicked..and they are NOT going to like it.
Sex, on the other hand, (and no..rape IS violence so it's not part of this point) is something between two CONSENTING adults..done for pleasure, love, and to procreate. ALL beneficial.
but you're actually telling me you're ok with reading and seeing pictures of the Joker beating Jason Todd to death....But Jason Todd having sex with someone is not ok?
And it's not really about the age of our children...though I would MUCH rather have my kid see and/or read about sex (and no I don't mean porn or smut) then letting them see and/or read about someone getting beaten to death...it boggles my mind how backwards this countries view on this matter is. It's an archaic belief.
So I just started listening an episode or so ago. I've been a Giantbomb fan for a while but I'm a big comic book nerd. I'm not that into DC but I enjoy hearing about it all. I'm a huge cosmic Marvel fan though. I'm buying solely Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom because Nova and Rocket Raccoon are in it. Are you guys cosmic fans? Do you talk about the Annihilation comics at all? I know Quesada has been hinting that Nova is coming back in a big way but nothing's been announced.
I just listened to the podcast JUST before the posting..and while I don't remember exactly who it was (but I believe it was Sarah that mentioned it) or what exactly was said..but a character being raped in the past was brought up. And neither of you batted an eyelash at it.
I believe that was a plot point in Catwoman, which is the comic you're giving ol' G-Man a hard time for dismissing. :)
Anyway, why must it be all one way or another? By the looks of it, this issue of Catwoman is brushing up to smut territory... or close enough that I wouldn't be comfortable with my kids reading it. But that doesn't mean I would expose them to gratuitous violence either. That seems to be a leap in logic you're making all on your own. Not approving of an erotic comic does not mean approving of a violent comic.
I understand where you're coming from however. There certainly is an aspect of our society that reacts more strongly to images of sex than violence, though I wouldn't agree that it's as across the board as you might argue. For example, there's quite a lot of "sex scenes" on television (and especially movies) these days, which don't crank up the age rating of a show as much as acts of violence do.
Meh. Sorry if I'm barging into this discussion. Just suddenly felt like spewing some cents. ;)
I have been listeing to their podcast for the last few months and enjoy listening to their insight, however, I disagree with their view about Catwoman. If in real life (sorry for saying real life in comics) sex happens. And if she is escaping her apartment in a hurry she could be half dressed, thus her bra exposed. Again in real life in comics would she even be wearing a bra based on how tight the uniform has been worn for the last 20 years. Why so shocked for a rated T comic? And the last page I think they are finished based on the previous page...
I have been listeing to their podcast for the last few months and enjoy listening to their insight, however, I disagree with their view about Catwoman. If in real life (sorry for saying real life in comics) sex happens. And if she is escaping her apartment in a hurry she could be half dressed, thus her bra exposed. Again in real life in comics would she even be wearing a bra based on how tight the uniform has been worn for the last 20 years. Why so shocked for a rated T comic? And the last page I think they are finished based on the previous page...
Just my thoughts...keep up the hard work!
We do indeed read all comments posted in the podcast forum! Thanks for listening and commenting! :)
Love XFactor and a fan of Leonard Kirk art in the book. Thanks for the fun podcast - went out and bought some recommended books from it! THX! See my list - I'm going to try to upkeep it when I listen to new podcasts. Keep up the great work!
I've just discovered comic podcasts so ive been exploring a quite a few on itunes. Im a fan of the site, so i thought i couldnt go wrong checking out the comic vine podcast. I saw how long it was and was at first a little skeptical... shame on me for judging before i even listened to it. Once i started listening to u guys, I was really enjoying it. You guys are hilarious and had me laughing the entire time. I liked how you guys touch on all the major comics released that week. great job guys, i subscribed to the comic vine podcast on itunes. Cant wait for fridays now. keep up the good work
I am thinking about mail ordering my comics. I have reviewed Mid town, DCBS, and Mail order comics web sites. Does any one have any reviews about any of them?
I really liked Catwoman #1 because I believe the way they portrayed the relationship between her and Batman was done right. The flirtation was always there so I already assumed long ago that they had been with each other a number of times.
Besides The Avengers I want to see a second Incredible Hulk movie.
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