This week you get TWO podcasts for the price of one. James Robinson returns to talk EARTH 2 along with what's coming up in future issues. The second half features some BATMAN #17 arguing and a run down of this week's comics.
Batman doesn't kill even though this crazy clown just put his family through hell ? As to why I perfer Green Arrow, he doesn't kill as much as the Punisher but he won't mind putting an arrow through your head if you mess with him or his family(pre-52).
Batman doesn't Kill it defeats the whole purpose of Batman and Batman put his "Family" at risk letting them run around the city fighting crime joker isn't the only one trying to kill Nightwing and Batgirl or robin and etc... Every villian in gotham is lol
Ohh, con-trov-ersy! I'd have to agree with those disappointed in the overall Joker story. Snyder is one of my favorite writers, but this just didn't pan out as well as Black Mirror or Court of Owls. A few very powerful moments (that excellent assault on Gotham PD) among a lot of either silly or limp ones. I have hopes for his Riddler story, I guess, but I'm starting to fear his strengths lie in original creations, not the rogue's gallery.
I like how Kirkman handled this situation in Invincible. Invincible realised he had to kill the very worst of his villains, and while he's done it a few times now, I don't feel like he's going down a slippery slope as most of his villains he still just captures
Am I the only one who was genuinely uncomfortable when Tony and Sara were arguing about Batman #17?
Just a little bit...I did enjoy the issue and arc overall, but I think Tony was taking Sara's opinion a bit too personally. I think it was mostly all of the flack he was getting from the review comments and it kind of bothered him when she started to sound like a few of the commenters. Don't get me wrong, everyone is entitled to the opinion, but I think Tony did take it a little too much to heart. If Sara doesn't like it, she doesn't like it! I respect that she has some reasoning behind it, despite my disagreement with her.
I like how Kirkman handled this situation in Invincible. Invincible realised he had to kill the very worst of his villains, and while he's done it a few times now, I don't feel like he's going down a slippery slope as most of his villains he still just captures
See this is the thing DC and Marvel are mainstream that's why they can't leave characters dead. Image, IDW, Dynamite...etc can kill off whoever they wan't and leave them dead because their indie.
Man that last half was heated! Tony sounded genuinely offended after that battle with Sara lol. Poor Cory was probably just sitting there terrified. :P
I like how Kirkman handled this situation in Invincible. Invincible realised he had to kill the very worst of his villains, and while he's done it a few times now, I don't feel like he's going down a slippery slope as most of his villains he still just captures
See this is the thing DC and Marvel are mainstream that's why they can't leave characters dead. Image, IDW, Dynamite...etc can kill off whoever they wan't and leave them dead because their indie.
Thats the meta reason DC don't want Joker dead, however that is also irrelevant.
At the conclusion of issue 17 Jokers death is ambiguous. Could he survive the fall ect ect. We know as readers that he sure as hell survived but you are supposed to wonder either way. Thats not the issue. The issue lies with the fact that he "fell" accidently. Batman didn't drop him, Batman didn't consciously make the decision to end him. That's the problem, Batman was too stalwart - unbreakable and no matter what Joker did to him he was never pushed to the absolute limit. That is the disappointing thing about its conclusion.
That and the "death" of the family were people blowing off going to see Alfred, which Is bullshit. Everyone would want to see Alfred.
Finally someone says it, Batman is an asshole. Now I Iove Batman as a character in comics but if you actaully think of him in a real world his a sick wiredo that has a better relationship with a crazy, muerderous clown instead of his family and he constantly places his family in danger and allowed children to help him fight killers and crazies. But Batman makes great stories, and as time goes by his becoming more and more like Superman.
I think it's interesting that Sara and Corey said they wished Batman would kill the Joker, because it would show weakness. I felt like not killing him was showing weakness. It's clearly the correct thing to do in order to stop all this awfulness, but Bruce was so psychologically damaged by murder that he's incapable of doing it himself.
@G-Man @Babs wow Sarah called Batman an asshole!! lol the fact that this argument got so heated shows that Scott Snyder is a great writer to make readers care enough to get in to a heated debate!!
Using the" if you put someone in the same position as Batman" defense is pretty stupid. Ordinary people do not have the same resources, skills, and strict moral code as Batman does. Also, people getting upset that no one died in this arc is their fault and not the writers. " But, but it says Death of the Family", yes it does but Snyder did not guaranteed a death, all that is what you and others have assumed.
A great long podcast albeit a tad bittersweet. I really wish James was looser with his cursing but I understand that younger viewers are important to you guys. I don't have a good suggestion for where the next Assassin's Creed should be. That series screwed up big time with AC3 and I'm not sure that the setting was the biggest problem with that game. The French Revolution rumors are the most appealing to me because you can still have assassins with guns. I am loving Earth 2's silliness and I hope Mr. Robinson keeps up the great work.
As for the whole Batman killing The Joker debate, I think I'm riding the middle with Cory on this one. On one hand I thought the final issue for the arc was amazing, on the other hand I wish he had done something better than just stopping The Joker yet again. Ultimately I really enjoyed that it eventually devolved in a that cliche` confrontation these two have done so many times but dozens of people were killed and mutilated during this plot and it was all on Batman's watch. Cripple him or something. Is it ever said that he "never maims?" The best thing about the Joker's scheme is that he proved to Batman how weak he was without having to actually kill his family. He showed Bruce just how easy he could do it at anytime. My biggest complaint is that the "Death of the Family" moniker was neither literal nor figurative. Near the end of the issue Bruce calls Dick and he's like "Don't worry about it." I still really like what Snyder is doing but I'd be lying if I said I was fully satisfied.
On a side note I'm tired of people saying that the best thing about the Court of Owls was that Bruce didn't know anything about them. Almost every Batman villain starts off with him not knowing anything. That's why he's a detective. The most intriguing part about them is that they were hiding in plain sight. If you go back and read issue 1 where Bruce is giving a speech to Gotham's elite you can now fully imagine that the Court were watching him even in that room. It put a great spin on the new timeline with the thought that Batman has been allowed to operate freely in Gotham because they let him. Anyways thanks guys and keep up the great work.
I 100% agree with Sara. While this issue was good. It was a complete let down. Batman had his chance to ice the Joker. All his talks about "it ends tonight" and "everything that happens tonight happens because I want it too" all talk no action.
I've lost a lot of respect for you Tony. You acted like such a baby, its almost like you are not equipped to handle people disagreeing with you. It is displayed in your rants when someone disagrees with you in a review and when clearly someone in real life disagrees with you about a Topic.
Pfft, I only listen to these Podcasts for Sara and Corey anyways.
Don't be like that.
Why? He has a point. I respect G-Mans opinion on most things but when someone disagrees with his opinion he gets like this. It's unfortunate but he needs to not be so touchy. I love the fact that the site gets interviews with the creators, it adds great insight to how the comics are created, but i feel that they need to be objective. G-Man took alot of flack in his Batman #17 review and some of the critisism was right. It felt that he gave it full marks because he 1: Is on pretty cool terms with Snyder 2: Will not criticise him for an ending that was weak. Again, if G-Man is doing it to keep people onside then so be it, he is the editor. But he needs to accept people disagreeing with him.
How does Batman even get respect? If you're fighting him and you know he won't kill you, how is he supposed to put fear in the hearts of his enemies? If he existed in real life he would literally be a joke.
How does Batman even get respect? If you're fighting him and you know he won't kill you, how is he supposed to put fear in the hearts of his enemies? If he existed in real life he would literally be a joke.
Um...just because he won't kill you doesn't mean you don't have to worry about him beating the crap out of you. You don't usually have to worry about a cop killing you, but the very fact that they can still arrest you is something that makes you not want to cross them. If you cross Batman, he may not kill you, but he will beat the holy hell out of you.
@Zeeguy91: No, cops have guns and they're not afraid to use them. He won't even beat the holy hell out of you because he won't cripple you. He's predictable and lame. The idea of getting beat up is not scary if you know the person has limits.
@Zeeguy91: No, cops have guns and they're not afraid to use them. He won't even beat the holy hell out of you because he won't cripple you. He's predictable and lame. The idea of getting beat up is not scary if you know the person has limits.
Play any of the Arkham games and tell me Batman didn't cripple some motherfuckers. No, he won't kill. But he will wreck your shit up. I'd say that's still worth being scared about.
This is a comic book. The villains aren't going to be scared of getting beat up.
Have you ever been beaten up? I would be shitting my pants if Batman "didn't kill me."
It was awesome how passionate people got when talking about Batman #17, Tony especially.
Both he and Sara made some really good points. I think I agree with Corey the most. I enjoyed the issue but it needed something at the end:
Since the Joker had his face removed I thought a fitting ending would have been something like the Batman to unmask. Not necessarily unmask but do something to that extent which would leave the Joker crippled mentally. Have him become catatonic on the count of him not understanding/coping with the fact that Batman isn't who Joker thought he would be. Not that he's Bruce Wayne exactly but that he isn't this king who needs his court jester.
Maybe Batman could have deduced who the Joker really was AND spill it out. Snyder could have invented a cool backstory for the Joker. Sure it might lessen the appeal of the character but you could have gotten this great reveal about Batman's arch nemesis. At best it could have been totally mind blowing. So much so that the Joker might have cracked even more than before. He'd lose himself in an identity crisis after spending years, decades trying to forget his lousy past.
I think this would have been a great way to illustrate what a marvelous detective Batman is, how he is able to deal the psychological death blow to the Joker thus neutralizing him (for now) without having to stood to violence and even killing him. Batman was the underdog the whole through this story really, seeing him coming out on top would have been the thing to tip the scale for good, to show that this is indeed without a doubt a Batman story that will be remembered in history as one of the VERY best there is.
@Zeeguy91: No, cops have guns and they're not afraid to use them. He won't even beat the holy hell out of you because he won't cripple you. He's predictable and lame. The idea of getting beat up is not scary if you know the person has limits.
Um, Batman has his martial arts, which he spent years developing and could probably trounce any thug in Gotham. the only reason that his villain aren't afraid is because they are psychopaths who are desensitized to almost any emotion.
I'm sure the Justice League also thought they had nothing to worry about from Batman. Then Tower of Babel happened....
See, that's where the danger of Batman lies. He's incredibly smart, incredibly skilled, and when he puts his mind to it, he can find your weaknesses, exploit them, and defeat you before you know what happened.
Saying Batman is lame because he won't kill (which is kind of inaccurate because he has killed in the past, by accident or otherwise) is like saying that Spider-Man is lame because he has the same code of honor. He won't kill either and has, in fact, made it his life goal to never allow someone in his charge to die.
@bunkerbuster05: They keep coming back so apparently they are not scared. Batman is so lame.
Okay, then who do you think is not a lame superhero? The only major ones I can think of that are at least somewhat willing to kill are Punisher, Wonder Woman, and Wolverine (who killed his own son).
I didn't want to listen to Sara and Tony fight. I genuinely felt uncomfortable. So, congratulations to Scott for writing something that was so impactful. And kudos Comicvine gang, I love you guys too much that I don't like you guys arguing.
Tony was being a huge baby. I'm pretty new to CV, but he seems to be the worst part about the podcast. I could listen to Sara, Cory, and James forever. AND NOW SARA'S LEAVING. Blarrrgh
it amazes me how hardcore Batman fight to keep Batman a broken and boring character. Batman #17is without a the most disappointing Batman title since Battle for the Cowl #3. DC needs to grow some balls.
it amazes me how hardcore Batman fight to keep Batman a broken and boring character. Batman #17is without a the most disappointing Batman title since Battle for the Cowl #3. DC needs to grow some balls.
Yep and If Tony is right about Batman having a unbreakable code that will never be compromised if I were a new comic reader this would turn me off and I wouldn't care to ever read another Batman comic again. If Batman did kill or try to kill the Joker it could add another layer to what is a predictable shallow character.
If Bruce really believes he knows the Joker worryingly well, he might stop to ask himself why, then, the Clown Prince of Crime is constantly several steps ahead of him; his hubris got his family near killed. I don't believe he should kill the Joker - the Batman doesn't kill. I do believe he should devote a few of the Wayne millions to Building a Better Straitjacket. I do think that Scott should be writing Batman as a smarter character. Not as the Bat-God we've sometimes seen - prepared for any situation, able to defeat any foe - but certainly able to anticipate the actions of his regular nemeses.
@Tony and co - if the people building the new site are taking requests, please ask them to fix it so that every iPad refresh doesn't take the comments back to the first page. Ta.
@Zeeguy91: He can't be so smart if his enemies keep coming back. For the same reasons I think Spiderman is lame too but his idiocy is excusable because he's young and the general tone of Spiderman comics tend to be more lighthearted.
@leejunfan83: Um...every superhero's villains keep coming back. The only way that Batman could keep his villains from coming back is if he killed them and even then, they could come back to life. They keep coming back because, like I said, they are psychos with what is almost an unhealthy relationship/obsession with Batman.
Oh, and btw, Spider-Man is almost 30 years old now. He's grown up enough where he can make the big boy decisions. Stop trying to make excuses for Spider-Man.
Yay! james is back! And he answered one of my questions!
And I agree that batman 17 was a little bit of a letdown, but mostly because DC hyped it uo to be this crazy ass finale when in reality it was quite subtle.
Though I thought it was awesome when batman freaked out the joker by telling him he knew who he was. I like seeing batmans moments of weaknesses but I feel like part of what makes the batman/joker dynamic so great is that in the end batman is better than the joker, which I felt Snyder captured perfectly with batman scaring the guy who isn't even affected by scarecrow gas.
@G-Man my point about the argument about Batman #17 is that Batman didn't want to kill because he thought he won but didn't realize that Joker won until the end when they didn't meet with him and then the element showed up.
Kill me... So much moody QQ. I get that people love comics but this is work guys... lets keep it classy. I have Batman fatigue... and Joker fatigue. Killing him would have helped... Oh well... back to my pour Power Girl comics... God no one can tell a good story about her after her solo...
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