The Nolan movies have continually hinted that there was a piece of young Bruce still living in Batman, which is why Alfred thought there was still hope for Bruce, hope that he wouldn't be completely swallowed up by the darkness and end up alone and broken ala Batman Beyond. People complain about the sequels losing Begins ' optimism ', but then crap on
Great podcast, enjoyed it as much as Tony but agreed with nearly every one of Sara's issues, that one difference being that I thought that in comparison with Marion Cotillard, Anne Hathaway did a good job. I don't think my opinion would've changed too much even if Cotillard hadn't been in.
Cotillard was awesome in Inception so I assume that this role just didn't suit her and that she'll have many good performances in her next roles.
I agree that JGL was the best part of the movie and if he would have said "my birth name is Tim Drake" instead of Robin, it would have been great. I do wonder how many non-comic readers know Tim as Robin or do they all just associate Dick as Robin?
I thought Catwoman was really good. I agree with Sara that you need to find Anne Hathaway sexy to appreciate her seductive side, which I do. I can definitely see where that would detract while watching it though. That being said, no solo Catwoman movie please. I just don't feel the character is strong enough on her own to hold up a movie.
Few things you didn't address. How did you both feel about how inept the American government looks? First, the CIA guy takes extra prisoners without checking them. Then the CIA plane gets ripped apart and for months no investigation happens? Finally, this terrorist takes over the city and the government just abandons it for months? I know it happens in the comics, but in the "realistic" Nolan Batman world it seems far-fetched?
Marion Cotillard as Talia was more bad writing than bad acting, save the death scene. The reveal was far too late so we never know who or what Talia is other than just a terrorist with daddy issues. The reveal also seemed to weaken Bane's character as well. It feels like he was made a glorified henchman by it.
Also, I though the whole point of the auto-pilot was that Batman jumped out well before The Bat left the city, so escaping the blast radius or anything wouldn't be needed.
Overall, I really liked The Dark Knight Rises, but it wasn't my favorite of the three. That's still The Dark Knight (which, by the way, is also my favorite movie of all time). The Dark Knight Rises is flawed, but overall very good.
Love this podcast! Sara is so riled up its great! :)
Also it just occurred to me.... If Bruce stopped being Batman after The Dark Knight... why did he build the Batcave? It kinda feels like theres a movie missing between 2 and 3...
I don't understand why voice acting isn't addressed more as a major problem especially if it comes from lead performers. Bane's horrible voice and Batman's voice completely ruined the movies. For a movie that's supposed to be more gritty and real the horrible voices completely take any immersion out of it
@leejunfan83: I thought Bane's voice made him sound more sophisticated otherwise he would have just been a strong guy i a mask. Batman's on the other hand I am split down the middle; I see the need for something that could scramble your voice a lot but they make it to scrambled sometimes. That being said I really cannot picture Batman with another voice; Bane's could have gone deeper but I liked it as it was.
@MooseyMcMan I agree. It was Awesome and so intense. Sure it had its flaws but it was so powerful asnd emotional that I loved it. But I disagree with sara I loved the ending with Bruce showing up. He wanted to show that Bruce could finally have a life away from Batman and that "Batman" didnt have to be Bruce, hes a symbol. And Sara i understand you having a problem with him surviving but really you cant see him surviving the blast radius? Hes Batman. He always wins.
I liked Tom Hardy's voice, it's distinguished but you can't place the region. Now, the MIXING of Bane's voice was messed up. There was obviously too much tinkering and second-guessing going on around the audio mix. There were moments where it sounds like Bane is walking around with a giant PA system. Christopher Nolan doesn't do director's cuts, but I really hope the Blu Ray has a Director's Mix!
It's a damn fine movie, but that epilogue is a misstep. This third movie would work better as a heroic tragedy. Neil Gaiman broke this down in "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" There can be no happy ending for Bruce Wayne. He chooses to sacrifice his entire life for a quixotic quest to wipe out crime. In every permutation, he will ultimately die in his never-ending war.
The arc for Dark Knight Rises was that he was going to sacrifice EVERYTHING for the greater good. Right in the end
he breaks his own code against killing, to stop the truck and save the city. No one comments on it, but that is a big deal. Once Talia forced his hand in a way that the Joker couldn't, sacrificing his core ideals, the only thing left for him was to make the ultimate sacrifice. That would be heroic, and the only way that Bruce can know peace. It's not heroic for him to fake out all his friends and allies, so he can assume a new identity and spend the rest of his life on vacation with a thief/murderer (who was responsible for his months of torture!)
Nolan's Batman is very different from the Batman of the comics. We saw that he gave up being Batman for eight years so the fact that he was willing to give it up in the end sort of made sense. The fact that he was smiling in the end was kind of nice because I know I'm probably not going to be able to see Bruce Wayne smiling anywhere else unless I look towards Adam West. It's kinda nice knowing that in this little pocket of the universe things end with a smile for Bruce, even if he's ever tormented in the comics and what not.
@Babs You're missing the point entirely about Batmans death or therefore lack of. This ending needed to happen.
The entire movie is about finding a reason to live. This is hammered home by Alfred when Bruce Wayne has given up on life. Catwoman steals in order to buy Clean Slate so she can have a new life. Blake became a cop to channel his anger into serving justice, as a way to move forward with his life. Bane explains the pit has an open sky so that the convicted would have hope, and keep them going, a reason to live. The doctor in the prison tells Wayne that he needs to rediscover his fear of death in order to ascend. He pretty much explains the entire point of the movie in that moment.
The entire theme of every subplot in this movie is about finding a reason to live. If Batman died in the end, even in heroic fashion, it would not have emphasized that Wayne had really learned this lesson and would have made the theme pointless.
I'm actually quite glad that they didn't pull an Inception. I feel it harkens back to TDK where sometimes people (the audience) deserve to have their faith rewarded. It could be just me, but I actually enjoy endings that provide more closure way better than movies that leave things open-ended. I feel that you're completely short-changing the denouement of the movie, which takes away from the catharsis of it all. I was so happy that they showed Bruce nodding to Alfred and with Selina. It would have lessened the movie if they just left this big question mark at the end of what's supposed to be the "epic conclusion."
As for Selina ending up with Bruce.
While Hollywood Rules dictate that they probably will live Happily Ever After. In a way, Selina was the only woman Bruce could have ended up with. She knows the loss and suffering he's been through, but doesn't pity him for it; her trust issues easily rival his, which means she's not likely to be offended if he's cautious or reserved around her (he has every right to be, given her initial betrayal, though I do feel that Bruce forgave her for that during his time in the Pit) and, most importantly, she cares for Bruce/Batman because of who he is, not because of who she wanted him to be. (Unlike Rachel. Not to say that Rachel was wrong for wanting the Bruce she loved back; it's just that Rachel, as she herself stated, could not have continued to love and support the man Bruce eventually became.)
Moreover, Bruce and Selina end the movie on the same playing field: starting over with clean slates. I think each of them would have found it comforting to begin such an enormous task with someone at their side-- not necessarily someone they trusted, not necessarily someone they could depend on, but at the very least someone who understood them.
Fast forward a few months from that, and with time I'm sure their trust, affection, and eventually love for each other would grow. Such an outcome needn't necessarily have been their intention from the outset.
Glad you guys loved Jiggle, he was great for me. Hoping for a Batman Beyond.
After trying to get to sleep but hearing you talk on the podcast I had to get this off my chest. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
@straightedgejoe: The name is just a nod to fans, it holds no real substance.
@Jurassic_Clarke: I think what's hard to swallow for some people is this isn't the same Batman they see in the comics, there's a humanity to Bruce Wayne's character in Nolan's Batman. Although it's not my preferred interpretation of the character, I definitely do enjoy seeing that side since we don't see it often otherwise.
I would have preferred if he died in the explosion because there is a certain "noble hero" factor to it that I would have appreciated, and a bold choice for Nolan as a director too. With that said, it was a satisfying conclusion nonetheless.
Lack of other villains I think helps the movie I know it may bother fans that there was no Penguin, Riddler or Joker return but it can just be pointless fanservice no need for it and the movie had enough characters as it is.
Biggest problem I had was the science of the bomb and the device Catwoman wants it felt very fake with too much imaginary logic for such a grounded franchise but I did realize that the movie was about the characters and where they are heading in life more than the plot or logic the story came from the heart and so that is what really matters.
Bruce and Selina living together in peace is the best way this series could end. From the last movie to this one Bruce's life outside of Batman is a big theme and the story that might have felt wasted had he died since the movie was about hope. I really like the sane portrayals of Bruce and I love that was the version presented in The Dark Knight trilogy through Nolan's movies Bruce has not been the insane version of the character. I think it was real creative to do what no one expected from Nolan and give Bruce a happy ending. It may not have ended exactly happy in the comics but in the old Earth 2 Bruce and Selina did live together I wonder if that was a direct reference.
Nolan is listed a co writer of Man of Steel so he could have creative reasons for being involved. Really loved this series and looking forward to Man of Steel but I think there will be no DC characters in movies they missed their opportunity.
I have to say that I disagree with Sara. I thought it was a fitting end to the series they had created.
I was worried that the large cast was going to kill the movie, but they did a good job of how they used everyone.
Yeah, the Miranda Tate character was pretty weak for Talia. Which is weird considering how her character is built up. I do agree about Selina. I didn't think she was bad, but something was a bit....off. I still hate those spiked heels. They were pointless, and they seemed to force a purpose for them. I was also rolling my eyes at the cat ear goggles. Did those ever serve any actual purpose?
I had zero problems for the voice of Bane. I thought it was fine. I do agree a to a degree that it was loud, but I thought he was appropriately creepy. I wonder if people are more harsh when put in comparison with the Joker. I loved the touch of how he had the habit of holding his vest while he waited.
Batman hasn't been much of a detective in any of the Nolan films. The detective would have figured out why his prints were stolen. There is only so much you can do with stolen prints.
I just thought it was weird that they never really explain why Bruce is so messed up at the beginning of the movie.
I didn't have any problem with the finale. Yeah, it would have been probably deeper, but I thought it was nice for Alfred. Bruce's body was too damaged to continue being Batman. This isn't a "super" hero. He's a man who takes damage. Haven't you seen the consequences of the damage football players and pro wrestlers take? I think Bruce is able to move on becasue he knows there was someone he could trust to take over. It was the purpose of his symbol. Anyone could be Batman.
I like that the John Blake character was more based on Tim Drake. It made it more of a surprise for the finale.
That Hallie Berry CATWOMAN movie was an abomination. I call that the weirdest film that doesn't even have the character it's named after.
Bane didn't just fall over, Selina shot him with with the very same cannons that blew away several cars. He was launched 50 feet. Odds are what was left was too gory to see.
As you alluded to, I think that the vacation scene is likely a happy ending fake out that actually gives you a very sad peek into Alfred's psyche. Instead of getting Michael Caine to turn on the fawcets yet again, Nolan isshowingus how Pennyworth is coping with all the grief. That Inception-like scene is just waaay too perfect to be taken at face value, and is shot exactly like what Alfred dreams Bruce's life would have been like earlier had he never come back to Gotham.You would never see this type of storytelling in the Amazing Spider-Man, or the Avengers. The film and movie comparison that you make is a good one.So yeah, the whole question of Bruce Wayne's survival is very open ended to me. Besides, despite the conversation about the auto-pilot, we never do see Bruce push the eject button before Nolan gives us the big mushroom cloud wide shot on the horizon.
Nolan said Robin will never be in these films, this is a story of a young Bruce, and bringing Robin into the mix wouldn't do well. That's why John Blake's name is Robin. John Blake's name is Robin, and he's not supposed to be the sidekick. Blake is supposed to be the successor to the mantle of Batman.
Nolan could of killed of Batman if he wanted to, He's made enough money for Warner Brothers, and plus they are rebooting after this anyways. The reason Bruce is still alive is because the whole movie every character who knew Bruce thought Bruce was just waiting to die. That's why it's powerful that he survived. He chose to live. The reason I think Nolan chose Bruce to end up with Selena is because Bruce deserved it. Everything Bruce did for the city, he gave up everything, he was willing to give up his life.
But I do agree that he should have died, to me personally it would of been more powerful that he died, and that the city figured out who he really was. Then it could of been a great mirror to the end of Dark Knight in which Harvey died as a villain and his actions were hidden. Bruce could of died, and his actions were shared, how Gotham's greatest son became its greatest hero.
I do think that they should of shown how Bruce got into Gotham. I am not asking for a part where he calls the embassy or something, but more in the tune he sneaks back into Gotham. I don't think Marion Cotillard really died, not saying like she's "dead", but more like she just passed out.
This was an terrible podcast. Not the subject, the content. Basically, for the most part Sara told us what she didn't like about the movie and G-Man didn't have much input and when he did it was very off topic (discussing what a producer does? What?) No questions? I honestly don't think there was just cause for the podcast.
I think it'd pretty lame for Batman to ignore Alfred's pleads and to just give into the darkness and die in misery. The whole theme of this trilogy is to find a why to pick up the pieces after great tragedy. Comic Batman has to stay Batman forever, because his story will never be allowed to have an ending.
@Dylabaloo: I was gonna write this long response and then read what you said and it was EXACTLY what I was gonna say in response to the podcast. So yah.... thanks!?!
I generally really respect Sara's takes on everything, but I knew she'd be contrarian about this.
They don't even seem like legitimate disagreements. Almost everyone in the comments has either totally countered her points, or disagreed. That shows that she wasn't just disliking it based on preference, but she actually got a lot wrong outside of preference. I can handle people hating on things out of genuine dislike, but not putting flaws in that weren't there.
Kind of a bad look. As soon as Sara started the Hathaway hate surrounding her casting, I knew this'd be a problem.
Also, it's inconsistent. To suggest Scarlett Johansson is a good Black Widow, and that Anne Hathaway didn't do the job as Selina? I'm sorry, that's borderline madness. Scarlett was nowhere close to being Black Widow. She doesn't look, act or feel like Black Widow. She's a random, red-haired S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who they insist is Russian because she can't act well enough to pull off an accent. You can't put wins on a dog and insist it flies.
Hathaway is 10x the actress and this was 10x the performance. If anything, Hathaway would've been a better Black Widow.
Still, if you liked Burton making Catwoman into a magical cat lady over Hathaway's pin-point Selina, cool...I suppose.
Had I been on the podcast I would've been a little quicker to correct or debate certain things. I like hearing what Tony thinks and it just seemed like he let Sara rant and wasn't going to say anything contrary.
you guys should watch the movie again, pay attention to the scene where Alfred is telling Bruce how he fantasized about him being happy with a wife away from Gotham and then watch how destroyed Alfred is during Bruce's funeral, i think that's is fairly reasonable to think that he was imagining.
BUT then there's the will, giving Blake the bat cave, who could have wrote that will if not Bruce himself.
The whole point is that Batman is a coping mechanism for Bruce's pain, he never learned to pick himself up. He simply became someone else, he chose to ignore his wounds rather than treating. When he 'rises' up, he's overcoming the darkness and pain, and he finds the will to live. It's triumphant and totally how the series should end. "Why do we fall?"
I really love this site! It’s, by far, my favorite comic book site. But I must say I’m pretty disappointed in this discussion of the movie. I feel like a lot of the issues brought up were explained either in this movie or throughout the 3 movies, particularly in the dialogue. And a lot of it was psychological. So you can’t just look at it from the surface. For example, the autopilot was mentioned repeatedly, primarily as jokes. So it’s not that it, “suddenly worked in the end.” Also, you can find the reason Bane was crying during the Talia’s monologue. And did you see those guns that were used to shoot Bane?? He’s tough, but I think it’s reasonable to assume he died. Why did he have the mask? Also explained in the movie (early on, I think). Why he ended up with Selina? Throughout the movie, you see that he saw that there was more to her than being a thief. He saw potential in her, and he believed in her ability to be good. And the reason he “retired,” was hinted at throughout all 3 movies, but it’s summed up rather well in his talks with Alfred. But the implications are there in the first 2 movies (particularly as it relates to Rachel). It’s also connected with John Blake. Why did he go into hiding? Explained throughout The Dark Knight and intertwined with his discussion at the restaurant with Harvey Dent and his discussion in the end of that movie. But of course, I could be completely off in my understanding. However, I still encourage you both to see it again. All 3 movies are multilayered. So many things that aren’t apparent on the surface are actually there. J
In the podcast they mention how weird it is that there isn't any mention of any major villains popping up between TDK and TDKR. This is explained in the movie as being a result of the Dent Act, which allowed the police to keep criminals in jail. There is also the points that the Joker and at one point Commissioner Gordon make in Begins and TDK. The Joker basically explains that the presence of Batman acts as a magnet for other villains who want to test there abilities. Then there is also what Gordon says about escalation. As soon as you make a better gun, they make a better body armor, then a better ammunition, and the cycle goes on. Without the shadowy presence of the Batman, there was no escalation and the streets were populated with your generic street level thugs which were quickly put in jail with the Dent Act.
I hope this elucidated the issue. Oh, and Dumbledore dies.
Like Tony I loved it. I thought Anna Hathaway did an awesome job portraying her version on Catwoman. Loved the scene when Bruce and Selina for the first time, when Selina stole the pearls. Her shift from innocent maid to sultry thief was remarkable.
Bane's voice was annoying throughout the movie, he DID indeed sound like Sean Connery.
As for Sara's comment about Black Widow being a more versatile character than Catwoman; agent/spy vs thief. I kinda agree but there is something "relateable" about Catwoman that Black Widow lacks. There have been way more ongoing, limited and one-shot series for Catwoman than Black Widow. Just my two cents.
I completely disagree with Sara. I actually don't understand anyone who wasn't blown away by Anne Hathaway's performance as Catwoman. She knocked it out of the park! I've seen the movie 3 times and have been amazed by her every single time, in fact besides Batman she was my favorite character in the movie! Anne Hathaway was the first Catwoman on screen that wasn't corny to me and didn't act over the top and cartoony at times like Michelle Pfieffer. From her very first scene when she transitions from cute and innocent maid to cunning and manipulative thief so seamlesly I was hooked. I liked how she was a strong character in and out of the suit. Anne was so unbelieably sexy in the movie, she could've gotten me to do absolutely anything in the world with the the seductive looks she was making in the movie. It is also a really testament to her acting how she was able to be the sexiest Catwoman while at the same time being the most subtle and realistic. Her being such a strong character added to her sex appeal. BEST CATWOMAN EVER!!! This was easily my favorite movie of the trilogy!!!!
I thought the Dark Knight Rises was an incredible movie. I agree that Bruce should have died it would have made the movie better for me. Even before that however I was brought to tears by Michael Caine's acting.
In regards to Bane. He dies after he gets shot. most likely bleeds out.
This is my new favorite movie, I was surprised at how critical this podcast was. When watching any comic book film you have to suspend your disbelief, no matter how realistic or gritty it is.
Finally saw the movie and I have to say I was mostly disappointed. The sad truth is that this movie doesn't even hold a candle to the first two. If I'm not suppose to compare this to the rest of Nolan's Batman movies then what is the point? My biggest problem is that it put Batman in just about every situation that I just hate seeing him exposed to in every other version of the character. Between him fighting in the day time, being unsure of himself, and every other side character knowing his identity it felt like the movie was dedicated to making him look like a weaker version of Bruce Wayne.
I didn't mind Hathaway's performance but I found the character had a pretty arbitrary evolution throughout the film. She starts the movie doing kind of more down to earth cons and burglaries then the next minute she's got the spandex suit and is using crazy vision goggles and heel blades. The jump in methodology for the character was jarring for me. I also don't like seeing Bane as such an idealist. He's way cooler as a luchador mercenary looking for the most dangerous game than as a buff terrorist with a mask. The twist with Tahlia was way too predictable since the accent was a dead giveaway.
I lean more in favor of Sara's view of the film. I thought the ending was weak, Tom Hardy's voice was a bit intrusive to the experience, the suspension of disbelief was stretching at times, and Batman was even less like his comic book self than either of the previous movies. The preceding has been my opinion that is centered around one fact: I was unsatisfied.
TDKR seems to a very descisive film for many. It seems almost like each Tony's opinion and Sara's opinion perfectly show both sides of the spectrum. Definately watch the Tony and Norm video about TDKR as it allows Tony to show his opinion a bit more than here. I thought the movie was fantastic and pretty much agreed with Tony. The Bane voice wasn't re-mixed all too well, but I still liked it. I did notice, like Sara, there were a few times where the music was too loud. I feel like this happened in Inception and TDK also, so I just wonder if Nolan's sound people always seem to make it a little too loud at times, even with the Bane voice. I think it would be amazing if the Bluray had an audio option to listen to the un-altered Bane voice But despite a few bad points I still loved the movie. I'd probably say I like this one the best of them all like Tony does. I thought all of the characters just worked so well in the plot and none of them had overstayed their welcome. It was almost comic-like in that it was a story about them all and just not a focus on Batman. The other two films are amazing too but Batman Begins seemed to spend a bit too much time on the origin part and rushed the League of Shadows plot. TDK was fantastic, but I thought relied too heavily on the Joker's events. It almost just seemed to focus on one Joker plot, then have very little between, then the next Joker scheme. Still an awesome movie though. I can't wait to see TDKR again!
I actually liked the voice, I thought it added to his character somewhat. Instead of just this big violent guy he sounded very smart as well. And I liked finding out that he was still alive at the end, I didn't want him to die at the end. But like you said. You say the same in comics. So do I. It never bugs me that characters come back to life in comics. Sure it takes some of the effect away, but at the same time its a fictional medium where you can make a loved character return, so why not? I'd rather have a living Ted Kord than a dead Ted Kord. Sure his death was meaningful, but I'd rather read a fun comic about him than a sad comic about his death. If you can do that why not do that. I like comics because stuff like that is possible. Real life is so sad, people die. They get murdered, hurt, sick, etc. In comics things can have a happy ending. Plus characters never get old, Batman has been in his 30s for years now, since the 40s or something. But I agree that Batman isn't someone who can quit being Batman. So I didn't like that idea so much. I mean he would be living in Paris and see someone commit a crime and go after them right? Maybe instead of using No Man's Land/Knight Fall/and Bane living with Talia as their templates, they could have used Batman Incorporated. To establish that Batman can quit because there are Batmen everywhere. I think Batman got off the Batplain in the very beginning of the plain taking the bomb out to see. I think that is why the plain went on a straight path and crashed through some buildings with a nuclear bomb, because Bruce wasn't in it. I think Nolan always planned this. At the MTV awards where they showed a sneak peak he said "I love the character of Bruce Wayne, and I wanted this movie to be the end of his story." Making sure to emphasize its Bruce's end, not Batman's.
I heard Salt was written for a man, I think it was written with Tom Cruse in mind, but then they casted Jolie and tweaked it a bit but not much.
I liked the second film best, I sort of block out the TwoFace part I guess. But I liked it because its set up that Batman has been in Gotham for a while. criminals on the streets don't go out at night because of him. But there is still crime for him to clean up, like Scarecrow, and then the Joker comes along. And the two go at it many times in the film. Joker is set up as a worthy foe to Batman, and that they will face each other over and over again. It ends with the idea that Batman will continue to be Batman for a long time after that, but he just wont be seen as a hero.
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