The Phoenix rant

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Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll be completely honest from the start; I'm no fan of Phoenix, as any incarnation. Jean has always struck me as being too damn perfect, and Rachel's immense mother complex is almost as irritating as her personality. And as much as I'd love for both of them to remain six feet under, there's one thing that the phoenix, in both mythology and in the x-men, is monumentally horrible at- staying dead. But I just remembered something about the mythological Phoenix; there's only ever one at a time. Like, literally, the parent dies before the child is born. Didn't Rachel and Jean meet at some point? Okay, they're not mother and daughter, per se, but they're as close as we're gonna get in terms of the whole phoenix lineage. Hey, for that matter, why is it that the Phoenix Force only really goes for women as long-term hosts? 
Okay, some of you may be wondering why I'm leaving Madelyne Pryor out of the list of prominent Phoenix hosts. There's a few good reasons for that, but primarily I did it because she's essentially, as far as I'm concerned, Jean Grey. Literally, she's Jean's evil twin; what kind of soap opera were the writers watching, anyways?
At any rate, I've stated before that I dread Rachel's possible return; however, perhaps for the sake of Cyclops' sanity, that'd be the better route. I mean, poor guy had the most important person in his life constantly dying and being resurrected. If it was anyone but Scott, there would be really serious emotional trauma. And I mean come on, the dude's happy, can't we just cut him a break?
 
Bonus Phoenix trivia: The name 'phoenix' means crimson, and it shares a name with one of the spirits mentioned in the Lesser Key of Solomon (Phenex).

#1 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Squares: Can I just shake your hand? Couldn't have agreed more. Great post.
#2 Posted by psyrax2k11 (42 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this, because I do believe that Jean Grey is a very interesting character, but unfortunately gets the shaft by dying a lot because half the writers only she her in that sense.  Though technically she's only died twice, once when she killed herself on the moon(even that is debatable, it wasn't really Jean, is was really Jean) and at the hands of Xorn in New X-Men #150.  Jean has the potential for great stories that don't have to always revolve around her being Phoenix.  I think she needs a writer that can take her character as Phoenix but human her down, like how Rachel was in Excalibur, she was Phoenix there, but not so, so powerful that she couldn't take a hit and get tossed around a bit.  Jean Grey can be that, but you get these writers that only see her as this omipowerful being that gets so powerful that she has to die.  I mean she finally became Phoenix again in New X-Men #150, but dies in that same issue.  To me that was ridiculous and didn't need to happen, but who knows the real reason why that decision was made.  Honestly, I do like Jean as Phoenix, but I also think it can be her achilles heel, just because of the death she faces and how redundant it can get.  Madelyne Pryor I agree is pretty much an evil Jean Grey, just with a different name.  But she wasn't really anything Phoenix, she just had a portion of the Phoenix Force that gave her life, and then of course left her once she died.  Rachel I don't dislike, but I never liked her becoming Phoenix, because I thought it took away from who Jean Grey became, Rachel to me is like recycling, she takes whatever Jean doesn't use anymore and becomes it, first it was Phoenix, now it's her calling herself Marvel Girl, she needs to come up with something all her own and just stick with it.  With the fact that Jean dies only to come back later, it does follow with the mythology of the Phoenix, when a Phoenix dies, it's reborn again from the ashes.  She's just following that myth pattern, though I don't think she needs to die at all, but that's just what it is.  And not to bash on Emma Frost, I don't hate her, but I feel like the only reason why a lot of people like her is because she's a hot bitchy blonde that snarks at people when she wants, she's like the "reality show" villain that people love because she's always mean.  What has she done that makes her stand out as a character?  To me she's a bit bland, she's always the same.  Jean has saved the world, sacrificed herself many times to save her team and the lives of others and yet certain people say that she's boring and brings nothing to the team.  Colossus and Psylocke have both died twice and came back once in "Fall of the Mutants," then again for Colosuss in Uncanny X-men and Psylocke in X-Treme X-men, both who've come back, yet nobody gives them grief for dying and coming back.  I'm not trying to rant on here, I'm just saying it's not Jean's fault, it's the writers that do this to her, she needs to have a writer that can write Jean well and not always write her as this over powerful Phoenix being, but as Phoenix on a human level without having her lose control and going Dark Phoenix.  In my opinion, I think when Jean does come back, she needs to be away from the X-men, maybe joining the Avengers.  She needs something new, something different, something not having to do the the letter 'X'.
#3 Posted by GREGalicious (473 posts) - - Show Bio

I COMPLETELY disagree. It kinda sounds like u really dont know much of anything about Jean. Jean is most definitely the GOLDEN GIRL of the X-Men but personality wise she was the most ordinary as well, which is refreshing as well as interesting. In a sea of ridiculous and TRAGIC backstories, Jean had a pretty average and normal childhood and upbringing. The fact that she was became the Phoenix, corrupted and commited suicide in her adult life is all the more tragic because there was never once any clue of what was to come for Jean. While i find Rachel to be somewhat boring, Madelyne was never just a clone nor was she ever anything like Jean other than appearance. As far as im concerned, Cyclops' abandonment of her is directly responsible for what became of her. While i really enjoy the Goblin Queen/Red Queen's appearances, i wouldnt have minded at all if writers had just had Scott and Maddie married, retired and left alone (with occasional appearances when needed) as i find Cyclops to be extremely stiff, mopey, and boring. Jean wouldve finally been free to be with Logan and i think she wouldve became a much better character in the long run.

#4 Posted by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@GREGalicious:
You know one thing I will agree with that you pointed out is her love interest,  IMO logan would have made a better fit.  I myself seen a stronger connection between those two than the apparently forced relationship between her and Cyclops.  It was almost like the writers created a fascade where on one end they wanted 'us" the reader to respect the relationship between Scott and Jean, and on the other end they really made her for Logan.  Truth is Jean would have been a much more likable character with Wolverine as her love interests, I always felt Scott made her weak.  However that's the benefit of the doubt, in my reality I hate Jean Grey and Cyclops and the whole damn over powered bloodline.  Never before have I seen such emphasis on making insignificant people matter, the time traveling, the reality misplaced children etc.  Hell I have a hard time seeing how how cyclops contributes to any of it, most of his children all inherit the powers of the mother, unless you look at his power from a kenetic aspect,  He isn't even omega level like Jean so what's so perfect about his loines?  I came up watching/reading the x-men, and I'm sorry Jean was never that great to me in fact didn't she use to pass out anytime she lifted a desk with her mind?  Seems like people are trying to compensate for her lack of power prior to joining with the pheonix force, by making her always as powerful as the pheonix force even before she got it but she was just holding back blah.....and her personality is typical, Storm has more of a break out persona than Jean.  Cliche..
#5 Posted by Harlekin (680 posts) - - Show Bio
@Postacrat:   Cliche? Have you read comics? Most things in comics are cliche even Storm strong african queen or goddess or whatever she is.
#6 Edited by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio
@Harlekin said:

" @Postacrat:   Cliche? Have you read comics? Most things in comics are cliche even Storm strong african queen or goddess or whatever she is. "


Storm was just the example that came to my mind at the time.  however  I *personally* find her relationship with BP to be more plausible than cyclops and Jean.  To me the relationship makes more sense, and is not forced again that is just my opinion.  I am well aware of the cliched antics within comic books as of late especially, at the same time I try not to read to many cliched books.  Being an African Queen and strong does not make storm cliche to me, if you looked at it from that point of view the only way storm could not be cliched is if she was any other color than black and any other nationality than Afircan.  Lastly after seeing black women in movies and shows constantly portrayed as weak and useless without a male figure involved in there lives, comics are one of the only places that they are not *too*....cliche.  Trust me this strong African view in entertainment media of any kind just started for black women in the 2000's, late 70-90's they were always helpless and easy pickings and that is cliche to me.
#7 Posted by Harlekin (680 posts) - - Show Bio
@Postacrat: Storm and Black Panther whole relationship is a retcon and feels like it was done because there both black and from Africa. How is it not forced?
#8 Edited by Harlekin (680 posts) - - Show Bio
@Postacrat:  Sorry to double post but the Storm miniseries in 2006 retcons a story were Storm saved Black Panther into a Black Panther saves Storm story and she fell in love with him, only to have them get married. In one fell swoop making there relationship just as meaningful as Spider-Man's current one with MJ. It screamed publicity stunt all over it.
#9 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

Madelyne was readily established as an independent character over the years since her creation, and aside from her looks, she honestly nothing like jean. You can't even legitimately refer to them as Twins, due to the fact that during there last confrontation, Madelyne displayed more of Selene's power, and in fact she was composed purely of psionic energy. I think she was done very well in the 90's, I don't see her as a jean grey double, cause since the inferno saga she has had very little to do with the phoenix.

#10 Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou:She is a CLONE of Jean Grey, of course one couldn't call her a twin. And it was clearly shown in the X-man series that Madelyne was tutored by Selene.

#11 Edited by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squares:

Correction - Was a clone. A clone is a genetic double. Madelyn doesn't even have a body anymore. her body was destroyed at the end of the inferno saga. Aside from her "Look" which is still completely different based on the artistic depictions, they are nothing alike. Add to that Madelyne's list of powers suggest that she is more of a psi-vampire. Not to mention everything surrounding jean and Rachel involves the Phoenix. Madelyne on the other hand, since her recreation has shown no affinity to that damn bird. She's nothing like Jean grey.

#12 Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou:Neither of them really has anything close to a personality, for one. Secondly, could you rephrase the last three sentances? They don't make much sense.

#13 Posted by EnSabahNurX (2315 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou:Neither of them really has anything close to a personality, for one. Secondly, could you rephrase the last three sentances? They don't make much sense.

lol he said

-Madelyn no longer has a real body, it's made of psychic energy(so she technically no longer has what made her a clone genetically)

-Now she only looks like jean(but artist interpretation changes the resemblance, plus her costume)

-Madelyn is a psi-vampire(based on her powers)

-Since she got a revamp she has had nothing to do with the phoenix unlike jean or rachel(the phoenix constantly clings to them)

-Their personalities are completely different as well

O_O I never read anything about maddie, i missed that run of x-men(I have that sisterhood arc) so i simply know the stuff from the wiki and Madelyn started out as the same person as jean she is now an individual character who i actually forget is jean's clone

So to say they are basically the same is a huge stretch, half the time i think maddie is selene with red hair XD

#14 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@EnSabahNurX said:

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou:Neither of them really has anything close to a personality, for one. Secondly, could you rephrase the last three sentances? They don't make much sense.

lol he said

-Madelyn no longer has a real body, it's made of psychic energy(so she technically no longer has what made her a clone genetically)

-Now she only looks like jean(but artist interpretation changes the resemblance, plus her costume)

-Madelyn is a psi-vampire(based on her powers)

-Since she got a revamp she has had nothing to do with the phoenix unlike jean or rachel(the phoenix constantly clings to them)

-Their personalities are completely different as well

O_O I never read anything about maddie, i missed that run of x-men(I have that sisterhood arc) so i simply know the stuff from the wiki and Madelyn started out as the same person as jean she is now an individual character who i actually forget is jean's clone

So to say they are basically the same is a huge stretch, half the time i think maddie is selene with red hair XD

I thought I said it in perfect English, but thank you for translating. lol.

#15 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou:Neither of them really has anything close to a personality, for one. Secondly, could you rephrase the last three sentances? They don't make much sense.

that's a completely subjective statement. Madelyne's considered to be the most tragic character of the X-Men. Driven mad not with power, but with scorn. She's the Archetype of a woman scorned, a characteristic that Jean never had. Jean has been shown to have so many different personalities, from the fiesty red head when she started out with the X-men, to the Den Mother, as the heart and soul of the Team, The martyrdom of the phoenix and finally the power drunk Dark Phoenix.

Madelyne started of as a Den Mother type, with no powers. She Became a sadistic woman scorned who happened to have the power to destroy an entire city but fixated her rage solely on Scott summers and Jean Grey until her own self destruction. Then upon her recreation she became a highly more subtle and Manipulative player, focused solely on her own personal stages of advancement.

Do you actually even read any comics that feature her in them, or are you just subscribing to internet blogs and wikki pages?

#16 Edited by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou: Why yes, I certainly have. Pro tip: 'wiki' only has one K.

@EnSabahNurX: Selene is a mutant hailing back from what seems to be the dawn of mankind, with the ability to animate an unspecified range of inanimate objects and to steal the life force from people. She has yet to display any capacity for warmth, regret, compassion or even pity. While we know next to nothing of her past, one can assume she's always been a heartless bitch. This isn't sounding too much like Madelyne.

#17 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou: Why yes, I certainly have. Pro tip: 'wiki' only has one K.

@EnSabahNurX: Selene is a mutant hailing back from what seems to be the dawn of mankind, with the ability to animate an unspecified range of inanimate objects and to steal the life force from people. She has yet to display any capacity for warmth, regret, compassion or even pity. While we know next to nothing of her past, one can assume she's always been a heartless bitch. This isn't sounding too much like Madelyne.

The similarities in Madelyne and Selene are in her powers. Where Selene showed the ability to drain life force to sustain her youth and vitality from other living things, Madelyne Displayed similar abilities in X-Man, with the exception that she didn't have a physical body to sustain. It was a body purely manifest from psionic energy in tactile form. She never once actually suffered defeat during that period of time, due to her ability to drain energies. (She was key in defeating Nemesis, Stryfe, and singlehandedly defeated both Nate and Jean Grey) It wasn't until she had exhausted her stores of energy during the battle with Psi-Ops Gauntlet that she actually displayed the same affects as Selene when she is drained of power, as she appeared very aged and withered afterwards.

If you actually read the comics, why don't you seem to know any of this?

#18 Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou said:

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou: Why yes, I certainly have. Pro tip: 'wiki' only has one K.

@EnSabahNurX: Selene is a mutant hailing back from what seems to be the dawn of mankind, with the ability to animate an unspecified range of inanimate objects and to steal the life force from people. She has yet to display any capacity for warmth, regret, compassion or even pity. While we know next to nothing of her past, one can assume she's always been a heartless bitch. This isn't sounding too much like Madelyne.

The similarities in Madelyne and Selene are in her powers. Where Selene showed the ability to drain life force to sustain her youth and vitality from other living things, Madelyne Displayed similar abilities in X-Man, with the exception that she didn't have a physical body to sustain. It was a body purely manifest from psionic energy in tactile form. She never once actually suffered defeat during that period of time, due to her ability to drain energies. (She was key in defeating Nemesis, Stryfe, and singlehandedly defeated both Nate and Jean Grey) It wasn't until she had exhausted her stores of energy during the battle with Psi-Ops Gauntlet that she actually displayed the same affects as Selene when she is drained of power, as she appeared very aged and withered afterwards.

If you actually read the comics, why don't you seem to know any of this?

'The' comics? Exactly what comics are you referring to? I have read many comics; perhaps not as many as, say, someone who has been reading comics for more than one year, as I'm rather new to this, but I've still read my fair share. Mind you, I haven't finished reading X-man yet, but so far I've read the Sisterhood story arc, most of inferno, that time period where the X-men came back from Asgard just before Maddie and Cyclops had that big fight up in Storm's room, and much of the events leading up to inferno.

Madelyne displaying abilities similar to X-man would make sense on some level; genetically, she IS his mother.

#19 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou said:

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou: Why yes, I certainly have. Pro tip: 'wiki' only has one K.

@EnSabahNurX: Selene is a mutant hailing back from what seems to be the dawn of mankind, with the ability to animate an unspecified range of inanimate objects and to steal the life force from people. She has yet to display any capacity for warmth, regret, compassion or even pity. While we know next to nothing of her past, one can assume she's always been a heartless bitch. This isn't sounding too much like Madelyne.

The similarities in Madelyne and Selene are in her powers. Where Selene showed the ability to drain life force to sustain her youth and vitality from other living things, Madelyne Displayed similar abilities in X-Man, with the exception that she didn't have a physical body to sustain. It was a body purely manifest from psionic energy in tactile form. She never once actually suffered defeat during that period of time, due to her ability to drain energies. (She was key in defeating Nemesis, Stryfe, and singlehandedly defeated both Nate and Jean Grey) It wasn't until she had exhausted her stores of energy during the battle with Psi-Ops Gauntlet that she actually displayed the same affects as Selene when she is drained of power, as she appeared very aged and withered afterwards.

If you actually read the comics, why don't you seem to know any of this?

'The' comics? Exactly what comics are you referring to? I have read many comics; perhaps not as many as, say, someone who has been reading comics for more than one year, as I'm rather new to this, but I've still read my fair share. Mind you, I haven't finished reading X-man yet, but so far I've read the Sisterhood story arc, most of inferno, that time period where the X-men came back from Asgard just before Maddie and Cyclops had that big fight up in Storm's room, and much of the events leading up to inferno.

Madelyne displaying abilities similar to X-man would make sense on some level; genetically, she IS his mother.

read X-man all the way through, and you'll know what I mean. She didn't display abilities similar to X-Man. She displayed abilities similar to Selene through no use of magic. In particular she displayed the ability to drain energies, and teleportation.

#20 Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou:But you JUST SAID that Maddie displayed powers that were similar to X-man's...

#21 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squares said:

@ithinkitwasyou:But you JUST SAID that Maddie displayed powers that were similar to X-man's...

No I said she displayed similar abilities IN X-Man.

#22 Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou: Ah. My mistake.

#23 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@Squares:

Correction - Was a clone. A clone is a genetic double. Madelyn doesn't even have a body anymore. her body was destroyed at the end of the inferno saga. Aside from her "Look" which is still completely different based on the artistic depictions, they are nothing alike. Add to that Madelyne's list of powers suggest that she is more of a psi-vampire. Not to mention everything surrounding jean and Rachel involves the Phoenix. Madelyne on the other hand, since her recreation has shown no affinity to that damn bird. She's nothing like Jean grey.

The Maddie you are talking about started off as nothing but a mass of memories Nate gathered and gave form when his mind reflexively reached out to his mother, her form as a psionic being was also based off of Jean Grey, so it was just another person attempting to recreate Jean, another clone if you will.  At first Maddie did not exist as a being she was a lifeless shell all her consciousness, personality and life came from pieces the Phoenix took from Jean easily drawn to the dark side because those piece had also been Dark Phoenix, making Maddie even as a ghost very much connected to Jean Grey.  Later we find out that, that mass of memories was no more and was now "living" as a ghost on the astral plane, because Jean Grey from another world took it over, and that Jean Grey already had the power to drain powers from powerful psi talents, it's why she came to 616 in the first place, to find the ultimate Nate as she collected Nate Greys to drain their power.
#24 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: When nate reached out for "jean" he didn't tap into madelyne's memories as she didn't have any memory when she cme back. She was an Amnesiac who only remembered her name. Her memories didn't come into play until Tessa tried to invade her mind in X-Man Anual #1 96. It was her psionic echo that Nate simple pulled into the phyical world. That's why he was unable to "unmake" her. Madelyne as she appeared in X-Man was nothing like Jean Grey. I have also never read anything where Jean drained psionic energies from another psi-talent. Nate grey said that he believed the reason he was able to draw madelyne into the physical world out of the astral plain might have been due to the fact that she was "Touched" by the phoenix. Madelyne's last official appearance in X-Man was in X-Man #52 at which point she had used up too much of her own energy reserves protecting Nate and ended up looking like a withered old woman. She disappeared into the astral plain after that (Long before the evil Jean grey/ imposter madelyne ever appeared in X-Man #67) This was confirmed in Cable #76, which took place as I stated long before the evil Jean Grey appeared. Said all that to say, Other than the physical resemblance to jean, Madelyne bears no characteristic traits to her.

#25 Edited by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@ithinkitwasyou: Well, they both have pretty bad tempers. And seem to have the same taste in men. And are one of those archetypal 'independant woman' individuals.

@LordOfAllHumans: Alright, it's official, I need to finish reading X-man.

#26 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: When nate reached out for "jean" he didn't tap into madelyne's memories as she didn't have any memory when she cme back. She was an Amnesiac who only remembered her name. Her memories didn't come into play until Tessa tried to invade her mind in X-Man Anual #1 96. It was her psionic echo that Nate simple pulled into the phyical world. That's why he was unable to "unmake" her. Madelyne as she appeared in X-Man was nothing like Jean Grey. I have also never read anything where Jean drained psionic energies from another psi-talent. Nate grey said that he believed the reason he was able to draw madelyne into the physical world out of the astral plain might have been due to the fact that she was "Touched" by the phoenix. Madelyne's last official appearance in X-Man was in X-Man #52 at which point she had used up too much of her own energy reserves protecting Nate and ended up looking like a withered old woman. She disappeared into the astral plain after that (Long before the evil Jean grey/ imposter madelyne ever appeared in X-Man #67) This was confirmed in Cable #76, which took place as I stated long before the evil Jean Grey appeared. Said all that to say, Other than the physical resemblance to jean, Madelyne bears no characteristic traits to her.

A psionic echo is nothing but a memory, just because she had amnesia does not mean those memories were not a part of it, it just means she could not access them, the fact that Tessas psychic attempt to probe her mind released those memories shows that, that is what she was based on.  Maddie not being anything like Jean Grey does not make her less of an aspect of Jean Grey, Maddie had no consciousness, life or power when Sinister created her, not until the pieces that Phoenix took from Jean were returned to her and rejected was Maddie even given anything, it was the part of Jean that lived as Phoenix that made up her core, that and the false ID Sinister created, the Maddie that came back in X-Man had nothing of Sinisters created ID in her only the memories that that she actually lived through after she was given life most notably her time during Inferno and her death.  Maddie lost her connection to the Phoenix due to inferno, Jean took everything that she was, including her life, all that was left was a psionic echo (a bunch of memories), When Nate came to 616 Maddie was recreated in a subconscious attempt to reach out to his "mother" Jean Grey.  There is no time frame that states when evil Jean took over Maddie, but she said she had been posing as her for months.  Who said Jean drained psionic energy?  I said the Jean Grey from the alternate world had that power, and the moment Maddie displayed this power serves as the time table to when that Jean took over the Maddie body.  He couldn't reabsorb her because she was independent of him, that must mean it was now an actual being and no longer the psionic echo that was running that body, Maddies entire persona changed during X-Man #25, before she was not absorbing power directly from him to have power herself, she was simply a product of him, after that she was able to tap his power directly just like Evil Jean Grey can do to other Nate Greys.  When she appears as the withered old woman she talks about her plans for Nate Grey taking a sharp turn, the plans she is talking about is getting this Nate Grey whom she believed to be "the one", Maddie before then had no plans for Nate, and it was after this we see that the psionic echo is now on the astral plane (where it was before Nate created that body for it to live in), they never say when she was replaced, but if you read the way the character attitude and motive changed you can see that it was at least by the time issue #25 ran, marking her gaining an independent consciousness from him which was why he could not simply reabsorb her.  In the end even psionic echos of Maddie use cloned Jean Grey bodies to function, and all of Maddies passion and eventually her turn to the dark side are products of Jean Grey, because those are the parts of Jean that became Phoenix and then Dark Phoenix and eventually Madelyne Pryor.  Who is arguing characteristic traits?  We are talking about whenever she is walking around talking she is based off of Jean Grey, her first body was a clone, her second body was psionically created clone and then she wanted Jeans body out right for the third body.  people are trying to disassociate the two, Maddies traits are a direct result of what Jean went through as Phoenix, everything about her that was real and not false Sinister memories was because pieces of Jean Grey lived inside her, when Jean took them back Maddie was no more, if she were able to survive without these then she would not have died from losing them, only a remnant was left, that psionic echo a living memory.  The Maddie that had all those powers and was kinda evil, during X-Man was not the psionic echo it was Queen Jean, Maddie was gone for months before X-man 25 and has an entirely different attitude about everything and different abilities that evil Jean had (power draining and teleportation), we then learn that the echo was replaced months ago by Evil Jean and that she was already working her way into his mind through that Maddie to begin with, which could also mean she was attached to her from the start and it was her buried along with the memories, Tessa awakens these memories and now Maddie is pure evil again, talking about plans that she never had before, then we have her seducing Shaw, "killing" Thren and showing her true colors to Nate by issue 25. so from X-man 25 on up (and maybe a little before) it's safe to say Queen Jean was in charge, so this explains where she got the energy draining power from as opposed to learning it from Selene, because for one you can't learn it from Selene, she has to make you a psi vamp for you to be able to psi vamp and that also makes you a thrall of hers, Maddie was not a real person, there was no lifeforce for Selene to drain and no real body for her to infect with the psi-vamperism, and Maddie was certainly not under Selenes control which is why Selene began to worry about her when she was getting close to Shaw.
#27 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: your entire rant is debunkt based on the fact that issue 25 had the confrontation between Madelyne and thronody (proving she had developed the ability to absorb energies) the revelation of Madelyn remembering her own death, and anyone connected to madelyne (Cyclops, cable, and Havok included) felt it, across the globe. Evil Jean wouldn't have had those memories or that affect on the people connected to madelyne. In the blood brother story line, Madelyne shared a connection with Cable, again something that Evil jean wouldn't have had, and after that madelyne was with Nate up until she spent too much energy in the battle with Psi-ops Gauntlet. So while it was never stated on panel, when she was replaced by evil jean, it is heavily suggested that she was replaced sometime after the "Twelve" storyline.

#28 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: your entire rant is debunkt based on the fact that issue 25 had the confrontation between Madelyne and thronody (proving she had developed the ability to absorb energies) the revelation of Madelyn remembering her own death, and anyone connected to madelyne (Cyclops, cable, and Havok included) felt it, across the globe. Evil Jean wouldn't have had those memories or that affect on the people connected to madelyne. In the blood brother story line, Madelyne shared a connection with Cable, again something that Evil jean wouldn't have had, and after that madelyne was with Nate up until she spent too much energy in the battle with Psi-ops Gauntlet. So while it was never stated on panel, when she was replaced by evil jean, it is heavily suggested that she was replaced sometime after the "Twelve" storyline.

And that is debunked because it was Evil Jean that influenced him to create Maddie in the first place so that she could use her as vessel in 616, the echo got in the way and it was dominant, until Tessa unlocked it's memories and the Evil Jean persona, it still took her months to get complete control over Maddie, at the end of #25 Maddie displayed the ability to teleport (an ability possessed by evil Jean).  What Cable was connected to on the astral plane was the echo after it was evicted from the body, and had nothing to do with evil Jean.
#29 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: hahaha scan's continuity and creator commentary says otherwise. Look at the scans. Madelyne the "echo" was composed of psionic energy This was confirmed in both XMan and Cable in multiple isues. Evil Jean had a real flesh and blood body. Madelyne Had madelyne's memories, including her grudges, evil jean was not concerned with any of Madelyne's grudges. As much as Steve grant wanted to push the idea that Evil Jean had been impersonating madelyne the entire time, the editor Jason Leibig wouldn't let it fly, so everything she said about being Madelyne Pryor was debunkt completely when Forge's reanimated corpse revealed her true identity. Madelyne was indeed 1 Madelyne until issue 52.

#30 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: hahaha scan's continuity and creator commentary says otherwise. Look at the scans. Madelyne the "echo" was composed of psionic energy This was confirmed in both XMan and Cable in multiple isues. Evil Jean had a real flesh and blood body. Madelyne Had madelyne's memories, including her grudges, evil jean was not concerned with any of Madelyne's grudges. As much as Steve grant wanted to push the idea that Evil Jean had been impersonating madelyne the entire time, the editor Jason Leibig wouldn't let it fly, so everything she said about being Madelyne Pryor was debunkt completely when Forge's reanimated corpse revealed her true identity. Madelyne was indeed 1 Madelyne until issue 52.

Now refer back to Xman #14 the psionic echo of Maddie cut her hand and it bled, it wasn't even classified as a psionic construct until #25 so that they could work Evil Jean into the story.  The body created was flesh and blood when it was first introduced it was simply created via powerful psionics, she was with him in issues 50 and 51 and that was Queen Jean too.  According to continuity it was the body created by him for Maddie that Evil Jean used, the commentary is not within continuity and is thus a retcon.  Without the Evil Jean replacing Maddie there would be no reason the echo was only able to exist on the astral plane, we know from #25 that he was not able to uncreate her because she was now independent, so then what event cause Maddie to lose her psionic body?  A retcon that's what and one at the last minute because as of #28 (June '97) she returned to Shaw as his consort, and Cable had been communicating with the Echo from the time she trapped him in meditation in Cable #44 (June '97), two different beings, as you said Evil Jean would not care about Cable at all, so while he was conversing with an echo of his mother, Evil Jean was walking around in her body at the same time in X-Man #28, before issue 52, it would appear continuity is on my side when you look at the actual books.  So Madelyne was indeed two Madelynes since issue #28
#31 Edited by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: When madelyne cut her hand, It was hinted that the wound wasn't real, as it disappeared the moment she looked at it. And in the blood brothers cross over, Madelyne teamed up with cable (read X-Man 46, Cable 63, and X-Man 47). Continuity doesn't seem to be adding up with the conclusion your drawing. It stems to reason that "Queen Jean" replaced Madelyne after She disappeared. That's what's been said by the writer, the editor and that's what was suggested on panel. When Queen Jean said she replaced Madelyne months prior. Her first appearance in issue 67 takes place 6 months after the destruction of that city.

Not to mention that astral forms (Psionic entities) have been shown to exist independent of the "host" who draw them out. Case in point. Nate Grey drew Xavier's astral form into the physical world, the same way he drew Madelyne Pryor's astral form into the physical world. Xavier's astral form essentially grew to be independent and thus became Onslaught. Xavier had no control over Onslaught, just as Nate had no control over Madelyne. It was even established by Threnody in issue 25 when she touched madelyne That Madelyne was "still dead"

In X-Man 47, Cable was using his psionics to stop madelyne's "bleeding" because she was bleeding out the very energies that composed her.

#32 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: When madelyne cut her hand, It was hinted that the wound wasn't real, as it disappeared the moment she looked at it. And in the blood brothers cross over, Madelyne teamed up with cable (read X-Man 46, Cable 63, and X-Man 47). Continuity doesn't seem to be adding up with the conclusion your drawing. It stems to reason that "Queen Jean" replaced Madelyne after She disappeared. That's what's been said by the writer, the editor and that's what was suggested on panel. When Queen Jean said she replaced Madelyne months prior. Her first appearance in issue 67 takes place 6 months after the destruction of that city.

Not to mention that astral forms (Psionic entities) have been shown to exist independent of the "host" who draw them out. Case in point. Nate Grey drew Xavier's astral form into the physical world, the same way he drew Madelyne Pryor's astral form into the physical world. Xavier's astral form essentially grew to be independent and thus became Onslaught. Xavier had no control over Onslaught, just as Nate had no control over Madelyne. It was even established by Threnody in issue 25 when she touched madelyne That Madelyne was "still dead"

In X-Man 47, Cable was using his psionics to stop madelyne's "bleeding" because she was bleeding out the very energies that composed her.

the wound was real it bled, it was the fact that she felt no pain that got her going.  The Maddie that did these things was the echo that was back on the astral plane, her body was still walking around from #28 on up.  She disappeared as early as X-man #14 when she was with Selene and as of #25 was displaying powers that Evil Jean had.  Onslaught was not Xaviers astral form it was his dark side further corrupted by Magneto that took a life of it's own, it was made clear that Onslaught was of Xavier but not Xavier.  Threnodys power are based on life force, Maddie would not have been alive in the strict sense in which Threns power operated which is why I am against people saying she got energy draining from Selene due to how Selenes powers work when it comes to making somebody a psi vamp, she had no lifeforce so people that feed on and sense this would not sense any, this does not mean her body was not flesh and blood, Selene and Threnody wouldn't  sense life force in a zombie either but it is still flesh and blood.   
Right because 47 is before the commentary you brought up said that Queen Jean didn't replace her, which would mean she was the psionic construct, her body was created by psionic energy to act and look like flesh and blood, same with the girl he gave an arm back too, that does not keep it from being disrupted and changed back into what it started off as.  Stryfe had a device that absorbed psionic energy, her "flesh and blood" was composed entirely of psionic energy, so it stands to reason she would be bleeding it out because the device was in essence eating her body which was psionic energy.   
Evil Jean was written to always be within Maddie, as I said the echo was dominate and it took Evil Jean longer to become so, even after Maddie was just an echo on the astral plane evil Jean had residual crap left, that whole year in the Xmen was about how people really didn't know the extent of what telepaths could really do.  Pieces of them could form completely different beings and cling to "this" world.  Months prior to issue 67 would be around the 25 - 40 mark not 52, especially in comic book time.  
#33 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: none of that made much sense, and goes against everything on panel. thanks Steve Grant....

#34 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: none of that made much sense, and goes against everything on panel. thanks Steve Grant....

it's all from all panel, counter it or concede.  Everything you said are things that made retroactive plot holes, anybody that read and owns all the books (like me) knows the story, and can fill those holes.
#35 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@Squares: What are your thoughts on Hope Summers?
#36 Edited by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: I don't know what you're talking about sorry. None of what you're saying is on panel. I have the scans to back up my claims.

Proving that The psionic "Echo" that cable spoke too in the astral realm was in fact the same one that was fighting along side Nate and Cable against stryfe.

Stick to the facts, and show me the scans.

#37 Posted by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: Don't much care about her, actually. Since it's been revealed Phoenix is back in 2012 and Hope's already stated to be an avatar of the Phoenix, I've lost pretty much all interest in her. Cable's coming back, too, so I have a bit of a sinking feeling regarding the future of Hope and the Four Lights. And I have officially stopped caring about Idie. Not that I cared about her in the first place.

She's being presented in a pretty refreshing light, at least- she's being a complete brat, and other people are noticing this, too, within the comics. Usually when female members of the Summers clan start being really unbearable nobody really seems to notice all that much (Rachel, for example). The dismissive and commanding manner in which she's directing her little generation is being picked up on and acted against appropriately, which is always nice. Hope might end up maturing into something really important in the x-men universe, but chances are it won't be anything I find too intriguing, so I'm not really paying her much attention.

Thanks for asing, how about you?

#38 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I don't know what you're talking about sorry. None of what you're saying is on panel. I have the scans to back up my claims.

Proving that The psionic "Echo" that cable spoke too in the astral realm was in fact the same one that was fighting along side Nate and Cable against stryfe.

Stick to the facts, and show me the scans.

you said yourself that what you got from the story is based on commentary after the story was already written.  All you proved is that the echo and evil Jean shared the same body and the echo was dominant at the start like I said, the books and continuity support my way.
#39 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Evil jean never said anything about sharing a body with the echo. You're just making that up...why....I can't tell you.

#40 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: Evil jean never said anything about sharing a body with the echo. You're just making that up...why....I can't tell you.

Evil Jean manipulated the events for Maddie to even be formed, Cable was dealing with the echo of his mother, while Nate was dealing with an alternate evil version of his mother at the same time, I have given you the issue numbers when both were independent of the other.
#41 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: And I have provided issues that contradict that, and the Madelyne That dealt with Cable was the same Madelyne that dealt with nate until issue issue 52. you're saying they were sharing a body....not true...you're saying she was "replaced" as early issue 28. Taking into consideration that you access the astral plain through telepathic astral projection, it's no stretch of the imagination that Madelyne who was with Shaw, had a telepathic encounter with Cable. in issue 50 of Cable, she warned cable about some of Shaw's evil plans. So The psionic echo in the astral plain was the same madelyne that had already met and reconnected with cable. Hence the comment "Indulge me. I haven't seen you since before you went to London"

And this was the same Madelyne that was still composed of psionic energy, that cable was litterally holding together with his own psionic power. In that same story line, Madelyne reluctantly agreed to protect Cyclops and Jean because Nate demanded it.

these are still Madelyne's memories, and experiences, and have nothing to do with Steve grants horribly written attempt at derailing establish continuity.

#42 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: And I have provided issues that contradict that, and the Madelyne That dealt with Cable was the same Madelyne that dealt with nate until issue issue 52. you're saying they were sharing a body....not true...you're saying she was "replaced" as early issue 28. Taking into consideration that you access the astral plain through telepathic astral projection, it's no stretch of the imagination that Madelyne who was with Shaw, had a telepathic encounter with Cable. in issue 50 of Cable, she warned cable about some of Shaw's evil plans. So The psionic echo in the astral plain was the same madelyne that had already met and reconnected with cable. Hence the comment "Indulge me. I haven't seen you since before you went to London"

And this was the same Madelyne that was still composed of psionic energy, that cable was litterally holding together with his own psionic power. In that same story line, Madelyne reluctantly agreed to protect Cyclops and Jean because Nate demanded it.

these are still Madelyne's memories, and experiences, and have nothing to do with Steve grants horribly written attempt at derailing establish continuity.

Except that the Maddie that was with Shaw had powers and plans that were in line with Evil Jean, you keep talking about he Maddie Cable was talking to, it was made clear when she encountered him in issue 44 that she was on the astral plane and that Maddie was his mother, the Maddie that was walking around had some evil Jean in it, and could care less about Cable, Jean or Scott after issue 25.  Nate asked her to protect Jean and she had memories of of being 616 Maddie, because at it's inception that body was created through Evil Jeans manipulations and the echo got in the way, Evil Jean had plans for Nate, Maddie and Scott lived in Alaska, that was there home that is why it was a neutral ground for her and Cable, on the astral plane, Scott and Maddie got married and moved to Alaska not the institute.
#43 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: When Madelyne encountered cable in issue 50 of Cable, she was in the physical world. More holes in your theory than Swiss cheese

#44 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: When Madelyne encountered cable in issue 50 of Cable, she was in the physical world. More holes in your theory than Swiss cheese

no holes in theory, since my theory holds that it took evil Jean time, like she said to fully replace Maddie, which was an echo, the holes come with the last minute retcon, Evil Jean caused Nate to create that Maddie so she could replace her, that psionic body was absorbed, she did not take it with her to the astral plane or she would not have been trapped there, during the 12, you then go on to say Cable was keeping that body held together, but we know that as of X-man 25 the Maddie Nate created could act on it's own without him keeping it together, so sounds to me like the no-body having echo was using the very powerful power of her son to get a new body, since it is in his power to do so, Cable made it very clear during his fight with Onslaught that on the astral plane he was not hindered like he was in the real world because the astral plane only needed his telepathy, and telepathy was the power used by Nate every .time her created something by bringing it from the astral plane, it would have been impossible for Cable to use tk for anything that complexed, without him dying.  And she is still trapped on the astral plane as of the Sisterhood arc, if she could not be uncreated by him, and could walk around as she pleased, why oh why did she need Jean body to house her power during that arc?
#45 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio

This all started because people in an attempt to hate Jean want Maddie to be a real live girl, well she is not, she is not just a clone in body she is a clone is soul, her body was lifeless and powerless, until a rogue piece of Jean took up residence in it, Maddie was nothing more than a darker more passionate aspect of Jean, because those are the qualities Phoenix took when it made itself Jean.

#46 Posted by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: what is your question?

As far as the sisterhood arc, it makes sense. While Madelyne was with Nate he had so much power it was killing him. She on the other hand needed to constantly replenish her own stores of power just to maintain corporeal manifestation, case in point see the image above.

so let me see if I understand you corectly now, because you have changed your position on this a couple times.

are you saying that Madelyne was replaced as of issue 25? cause thats not likely considering that afterwords she is shown to still have all of her memories, and old grudges, and lingering affection for her son.

Are you saying that they were sharing a body? this makes no sense it has never been said on panel and i don't know where you got it from.

Are you saying they were seporate entities and one was trapped in the astral plain...since when? that makes sense, but your timing is off. Cause evil jean didn't show up till Madelyne left, in issue 52....like I have been saying.

#47 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@Squares said:

@RainEffect: Don't much care about her, actually. Since it's been revealed Phoenix is back in 2012 and Hope's already stated to be an avatar of the Phoenix, I've lost pretty much all interest in her. Cable's coming back, too, so I have a bit of a sinking feeling regarding the future of Hope and the Four Lights. And I have officially stopped caring about Idie. Not that I cared about her in the first place.

She's being presented in a pretty refreshing light, at least- she's being a complete brat, and other people are noticing this, too, within the comics. Usually when female members of the Summers clan start being really unbearable nobody really seems to notice all that much (Rachel, for example). The dismissive and commanding manner in which she's directing her little generation is being picked up on and acted against appropriately, which is always nice. Hope might end up maturing into something really important in the x-men universe, but chances are it won't be anything I find too intriguing, so I'm not really paying her much attention.

Thanks for asing, how about you?

No problem! 
 
Yeah, I agree that it is nice that other people notice she is a total brat. Having read Cable: Homecoming which is the last portion of her travels with Cable, it is really good to see some consistency with her character. There's this beautiful scene in X-Men: Second Coming where she sees a beauty kit and she doesn't even know what to do with it, because she's lived her entire life as a soldier and a survivor. I sort of look at her like Damian Wayne, except so much more likable. 
 
I really hope they don't turn her into a Jean-copy. I want her to be her own character. While I don't read her Generation Hope series (as I've seen some horrid excerpts), I do really enjoy her small time in the main X-men issues. I just kind of wish she joined Wolverine's team. It doesn't make sense that she stayed with Scott as Second Coming showed that she hated him.
#48 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4022 posts) - - Show Bio
@ithinkitwasyou said:

@LordOfAllHumans: what is your question?

As far as the sisterhood arc, it makes sense. While Madelyne was with Nate he had so much power it was killing him. She on the other hand needed to constantly replenish her own stores of power just to maintain corporeal manifestation, case in point see the image above.

so let me see if I understand you corectly now, because you have changed your position on this a couple times.

are you saying that Madelyne was replaced as of issue 25? cause thats not likely considering that afterwords she is shown to still have all of her memories, and old grudges, and lingering affection for her son.

Are you saying that they were sharing a body? this makes no sense it has never been said on panel and i don't know where you got it from.

Are you saying they were seporate entities and one was trapped in the astral plain...since when? that makes sense, but your timing is off. Cause evil jean didn't show up till Madelyne left, in issue 52....like I have been saying.

If you go back I said that the process started as early as #25, when her persona began to change and she began to show abilities that were possessed by Evil Jean, Evil Jean said she started this process months ago prior to issue 25, Maddie was away from Nate for Months and shows up evil and with new abilities that were never even shown by Nate let alone the Maddie of 616.  Evil Jean had to worm her way in, Evil Jean manipulated him to created that body, what I don't get is how that does not add up to you, the Maddie Cable dealt with is not the one that was walking around after a while, when Maddie got her memories back she would have not been wasting any more time on Nate because her focus was on revenge and getting her son back, my position has not changed at all.
#49 Edited by Squares (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: ithinkitwasyou was right about one thing, at least- there WERE holes in your story. You admitted it yourself.

@RainEffect: What reason would she have for joining Wolverine? She doesn't want to join a school, she doesn't want to be given a particularly structured lifestyle and she isn't much interested in learning.

#50 Edited by ithinkitwasyou (682 posts) - - Show Bio
@LordOfAllHumansIf you go back I said that the process started as early as #25, when her persona began to change and she began to show abilities that were possessed by Evil Jean, Evil Jean said she started this process months ago prior to issue 25, Maddie was away from Nate for Months and shows up evil and with new abilities that were never even shown by Nate let alone the Maddie of 616. Evil Jean had to worm her way in, Evil Jean manipulated him to created that body, what I don't get is how that does not add up to you, the Maddie Cable dealt with is not the one that was walking around after a while, when Maddie got her memories back she would have not been wasting any more time on Nate because her focus was on revenge and getting her son back, my position has not changed at all.

You've changed your position a couple times, but I'm not going to relive that. I am trying to get your point now. In issue 25 madelyne displayed powers like selene (Teleportation) and apparently her own brand of energy draining. Queen Jean didn't display powers anything like Madelyne. Madelyne's personality didn't change. She always came with duality. This isn't new. Queen Jean couldn't teleport. She could project psionic energies like all psionics, and she displayed a certain degree of telepathic skill, but she never teleported. In order to traverse dimensions, she had to use a machine, and then she had to use Nate (Vicarious telepathy) to get home.

on another Note, Madelyne wasn't concerned with revenge. when She encountered jean, she was pissed, and she attacked, but as I stated in later issues, she protected her. So that theory is out the window.

Also you're dismissing the fact that the story where Queen Jean revealed herself took place six month after she had showed up in his life. Not to mention it was made clear on panel that Jean was a big time liar, who contradicted herself on panel.

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