Ozymandias: Hero OR Villain

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#1 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

Ozymandias.
#3 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go hero.  Killing millions of people is pretty villainous.  But going against your very nature and killing millions of people in order to ensure the safety of not just the billions of other people but also the billions yet unborn and the rest of life on the planet... that's pretty heroic IMO.  Sometimes the ends do justify the means.
#4 Posted by Sheep-Kill (617 posts) - - Show Bio

He's a tragic character.  He is a hero for the wrong reasons and a villain for the right reasons.  A real yin yang.

#5 Posted by MKF30 (11635 posts) - - Show Bio

He's not a hero IMO, people like Superman, Batman etc would find another way....period. Killing millions to save billions to me makes no sense...he acts as if it's killing a few people, but really is a lot more then just a few people... 
 
I say he's more neutral/villian if anything. Definitely NOT a hero....maybe he used to be but sure as hell isn't one currently or at the end of Watchmen...

#6 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

Villain, he is no different from Ra's Al Ghul.

#7 Posted by Griffin_2099 (571 posts) - - Show Bio

Today, with over 6 Billion people world wide killing a couple of million doesn't seem like a terrible thing. 
 
In the process he creates a huge stepping stone towards World Peace and Scientific progress. 
 
While you may not like the method the outcome can not be argued with. 
 
And on a side note, Superman and Batman have yet to find a way to achieve what he set out to do.
#8 Edited by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

In the book Ozy managed to prevent a US vs Soviet war, but in doing so he made both nations less free.  The governments of both nations used the perceived threat of the alien menace to use as an excuse to take away the freedoms of its people even further than before.  He created a dystopia, not a utopia.

#9 Edited by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio

Villain killing at that magnitude is never and will never be right plus he is a d@ck
#10 Posted by JediXMan (30608 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti-Hero, maybe.

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#11 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Griffin_2099 said:
" Today, with over 6 Billion people world wide killing a couple of million doesn't seem like a terrible thing.  In the process he creates a huge stepping stone towards World Peace and Scientific progress.  While you may not like the method the outcome can not be argued with.  And on a side note, Superman and Batman have yet to find a way to achieve what he set out to do. "
Batman has stopped world crime all around the world in Cannon upon receiving Superman's powers. as well that was the use of Batman's OMAC. Him killing millions only made things worse in the end as well Superman and Batman have saved the world hundreds of times
#12 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

An anti-hero is just an imperfect hero or a hero with human faults. Given th e massively horrific nature of Ozymandias' actions, he is put way past anti-hero, but a mass murdering villain.

#13 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

could never call it. by Manhattans own admission Ozzy stopped an eventual and forthcoming nuclear end
in their world, and something which he wouldnt be capable of himself for various reasons, so theres that
as well to factor in.
 
Superman and Batman dont matter either. the whole premise was this world lacked real superheroes
save one, and just people attempting to be super in a more realistic realm, so those options were really
no more available then they were in ours. besides, as far as Superman is concerned when its time to
make the tough choice...

...he was not above playing judge, jury and executioner in favor of allowing the deaths of billions.
#14 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have had an easier time accepting him as a hero if just tried to overthrow both governments rather than indiscriminately murder millions of people.

#15 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem: 
millions of people that were already going to die though, therein lies the problem 
and the forgotten about factor here. Manhattans own visions confirmed their end from
a nuclear war.
#16 Posted by Griffin_2099 (571 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Griffin_2099 said:
" Today, with over 6 Billion people world wide killing a couple of million doesn't seem like a terrible thing.  In the process he creates a huge stepping stone towards World Peace and Scientific progress.  While you may not like the method the outcome can not be argued with.  And on a side note, Superman and Batman have yet to find a way to achieve what he set out to do. "
Batman has stopped world crime all around the world in Cannon upon receiving Superman's powers. as well that was the use of Batman's OMAC. Him killing millions only made things worse in the end as well Superman and Batman have saved the world hundreds of times "

True, but we are talking about lasting social change for the better. Batman stopped all crime for what? a day? a week? Not looking at a long game towards creating a society that could stop crime forever, stop wars forever. 
 
How does killing millions make it worse in the end? He took the Burden of guilt on himself in order to make a lasting change to humanity.
#17 Posted by Rune (302 posts) - - Show Bio

hero and uber pimp

#18 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio

He's a villian. The worst kind, the kind that think they're doing good.
#19 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @kadeem:  millions of people that were already going to die though, therein lies the problem  and the forgotten about factor here. Manhattans own visions confirmed their end from a nuclear war. "
We are assuming that Doctor Manhattan's perception of time is infallible.  We have seen Ozymandias use technology to blur or block the Doc's time vision.  For all we know the Doc's time vision can also loss accuracy due to natural phenomena. He expressed on more than one occasion in the book that he wasn't absolutely sure that time as he saw it was absolutely determined. Even if we discount that  we must always rember that he may not accuraley understand what he perceives 100% of the time.
#20 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Griffin_2099: He created an essence of fear that will come with rioting and people doing desperate things it also turned most countries in to almost a police state, The peace he created by killing millions of innocents will not last. If he was truly the genius he said he was he would have come up with a way to diplomatically end the conflicts
#21 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus: or at least if not an absolutely non-violent solution, than just kill the people who were going to cause the nuclear holocaust.
#22 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem said:
" @Son_of_Magnus: or at least if not an absolutely non-violent solution, than just kill the people who were going to cause the nuclear holocaust. "
Exactly why do the innocent have to pay for the idiots in power
#23 Posted by Griffin_2099 (571 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus:
I will have to reread it, I don't remember the police state bits, but the rioting always takes place when a disaster happens. 
 
I am not saying a fear based change was the only way, but no other factor has changed the world more than avarice, anger or fear.  
 
Also remember the time we are talking about, the world was already in a place of immense fear, people expected to be killed by a bomb any day. Just getting talks starting was an achievement.  
 
You say that a peace created through killing innocents can not last, when did World War 3 happen that I didn't notice it? since the Bombing of Hiroshima there hasn't been another conflict on the scale of World War 2.
#24 Posted by HelixandMeteors (14 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sheep-Kill: I agree with you completely.
#25 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Griffin_2099: The way things are going World War Three does not look far away. And the threat of death is still in these people's hearts and now it is more so then the bombs since an Alien already attacked them it can do it again they will be nuts. He is no better than Ras' Al Ghull
#26 Posted by Rune (302 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123 said:
" He's a villian. The worst kind, the kind that think they're doing good. "
but he did do good
#27 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rune said:
" @InnerVenom123 said:
" He's a villian. The worst kind, the kind that think they're doing good. "
but he did do good "
That is what Ras' Al Ghul and Bizzaro think as well
#28 Posted by Griffin_2099 (571 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Griffin_2099: The way things are going World War Three does not look far away. And the threat of death is still in these people's hearts and now it is more so then the bombs since an Alien already attacked them it can do it again they will be nuts. He is no better than Ras' Al Ghull "

As far as I was aware the book ended with America and the USSR moving towards toalks and increasing the funding for space exploration to go on the offensive. I have to reread the books as I havn't read them fully for over a year but I am fairly certain this was the case. 
 
Why is everyone down on Ra's? the world is overpopulated and humanity needs to be culled. He has a fairly drastic approach (killing 70% - 90% of the population) instead of encouraging people to have less kids, but given the way we are exploding in population world wide education is obviously not working.
#29 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem: 
thats fine and all but only assumption on your part, it wasnt in either version of the story, and
neither was this "world he created" thats being talked about here, in fact, the only thing that was 
shown was that " nothing ever ends " made way by the newspaper scene in the end, and the fact 
that the nations had in fact came together. for all these characters knew to the contrary the world
was soon to end from a nuclear war, so the assumption is on your own end and contrary to the 
determination of a real answer. everyone of the characters committed others to violence in the name
of their own beliefs of what was right and wrong for others as well, another thing to be noted, one of them
just did it on the largest scale of the rest.
#30 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

People in power have always ruled through fear and avarice.  The problem throughout history has always been that people wth a God complex like Ozymandias thought that people should be intimidated into a state of fear for their own good. Ozymandias isn't the exception, bout the continuation of this history long tradition.  Not until men govern themselves with reason rather than  fear will this ever stop.

#31 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Griffin_2099: The entire world population could fit in Texas it is not that bad
#32 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem: 
it sounds as if your confusing a fictional setting with your opinion of the real worlds government.
most of what your stating wasnt present in any version of the story.
#33 Posted by Griffin_2099 (571 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus:
But who would want to :P 
 
Looking at it as a this many people per sqaure foot we are fine. If you look at resources available against resources per person we start to run into trouble. 
 
#34 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @kadeem:  it sounds as if your confusing a fictional setting with your opinion of the real worlds government. most of what your stating wasnt present in any version of the story. "
Alan Moore grounded the storyline in real history, particularly the cold war era.  His entire point in writing the story was showing how horrible the world would end up if super "heroes" that were psychologically realistic actually tried to change the world. Since it is set in real history it is necessary to draw on that historical context to understand and qualify the actions of the Watchmen.
#35 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Griffin_2099: There have been test proven that if the world went Vegetation it would end world huger. Maybe if people worked harder
#36 Posted by Griffin_2099 (571 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Griffin_2099: There have been test proven that if the world went Vegetation it would end world huger. Maybe if people worked harder "

Do you mean Vegetarian? no being pedantic but that would change your statement somewhat. 
 
Look at other resources, look at damage done to the environment and the number of species dying out.
#37 Posted by rein (1330 posts) - - Show Bio

 the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I don't like how He did it. If there was another way, he should have taken it. But he saved billions of people by killing millions. I see him as a hero using villainous means. 

#38 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@rein said:
"  the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I don't like how He did it. If there was another way, he should have taken it. But he saved billions of people by killing millions. I see him as a hero using villainous means.  "
Isn't it the means that a person uses what decides if they are a villain or a hero?
#39 Edited by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem: 
seems the world was horrible in Moores story superhero or not.
but your really just dodging the question again. its odd how you see
Ozymandias as wrong for imposing his views on others while you practice 
the same exact belief, and in the name of what would improve the world as well.
the difference being Ozy was the kind of person that actually took the initiative. most 
people have mountains of beliefs of who should do what especially those in control,
yet actually dont deal with the problem themselves and expect another to do it as the end
result eitherway. hence why mankind has systems over ruling it comprised of people who  
will at least try and save them. because they chose the hell they live in. the next question here
is of course, if you were given the power to change the world for the better, what would that better
be and how would you go about making it happen in a detailed fashion. how would you protect mankind
from itself.
#40 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

I would advocate a more transparent system of government, which empowers people to take care of themselves manage there societies directly, and the system would have much more reliable infrastructural sytems of accountability to prevent corruption.  I'm not like Ozymandias, I don't run around killing people indiscriminately, and I'm tolerant of others views.

#41 Posted by rein (1330 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem said:
IMO, the thing that matters most in determining if a character is good or evil is the effect that the character has. Ozymandias saved billions of people from almost inevitable doom. He had to sacrifice millions to accomplish that fact, but he did do what he set out to accomplish. I'm going to Have to say i still think Ozymandias is a Hero.
#42 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@rein said:
" @kadeem said: IMO, the thing that matters most in determining if a character is good or evil is the effect that the character has. Ozymandias saved billions of people from almost inevitable doom. He had to sacrifice millions to accomplish that fact, but he did do what he set out to accomplish. I'm going to Have to say i still think Ozymandias is a Hero. "
I don't' think his accomplishment makes him a hero, it just makes him a successful villain.  No one including Dr.Manhattan  knew with absolute certainty that the nuclear holocaust would happen. He didn't save America or Russia, he only made the people in those countries less free.
#43 Posted by rein (1330 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem said:
If we were to Take The Definition Of villain as "someone who does evil intentionally" then yes, Ozymandias is a villain. The same Can Be said about him being a hero, As he seeks to improve society and The lives of the people around him. And while it's true that Dr. Manhattan couldn't say with Complete certainty That the nuclear holocaust would happen, He could Nearly-guarantee it.
#44 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@rein said:
" @kadeem said: If we were to Take The Definition Of villain as "someone who does evil intentionally" then yes, Ozymandias is a villain. The same Can Be said about him being a hero, As he seeks to improve society and The lives of the people around him. And while it's true that Dr. Manhattan couldn't say with Complete certainty That the nuclear holocaust would happen, He could Nearly-guarantee it. "


Even though his intention was to improve society, it does not give him the authority to destroy millions of lives.  At best what he ended up doing was replace an uncertain evil with a certain evil.
#45 Posted by ~The Wanderer~ (34406 posts) - - Show Bio

More heroic than any other Watchmen character.

#46 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@~The Wanderer~ said:
" More heroic than any other Watchmen character. "
Are you say he was the only hero in Watchmen, or are you saying that he was a villain, but the other characters were so bad that he was a hero in comparison?
#47 Posted by ~The Wanderer~ (34406 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem said:
" Are you say he was the only hero in Watchmen, or are you saying that he was a villain, but the other characters were so bad that he was a hero in comparison? "
I'm saying he was the only Watchmen character willing to go those great lengths to ensure world peace...while we can't know for sure he really succeeded in the end, he came a lot closer than anyone else did.
Nite-Owl and Silk Spectre were decent, but as Ozy claimed to have done himself in his younger years, they only fought the symptom and not the disease itself.
#48 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio
@~The Wanderer~:  The way i read the end of the novel is that Ozymandias' actions turned the threat of war into societies that were even less free than before.  I have to agree with what CATMANEXE said about "nothing ever ending" earlier.  He didn't end the violence he just made it continue in a different form, under the veneer of peace.  I think their is some wisdom in what you said about "fighting the symptom and not the disease", but I believe all Ozymandias did was change the symptoms of the disease. 
#49 Posted by .Mistress Redhead. (27119 posts) - - Show Bio

neither he is neutral

#50 Posted by ~The Wanderer~ (34406 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem: Possible.
Then again, I do think what Ozy did was very much villainous, even though he did it with good intentions.

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