If Black Panther ended his marriage over that ish, then surely he can kill Namor over that ish #MyLogicMakesSense

Lol @ T'Challa killing Namor. Namor should rip his head off and return to Atlantis.

Namor and Cyclops should only be held accountable for their actions when Avengers like Wolverine, Hulk, Beast and others take responsibility for their actions and the lives they took, too

If Cyclops has to take the blame for Xavier then Emma has to take the blame for having mind sex with Namor while she was with Scott since that is how they first got together as Namor should for Wakanda since Wanda is responsible for almost destroying all Mutants.

@CircularLogic said:

So like an alcoholic that get's behind the wheel of a car, the X-men are all responsible for those they killed during AvX.

I agree completely.

The phoenix five weren't in their right minds clearly, I mean at one point they were having steak with a side of human blood for dinner while discussing if they should simply destroy the world and start again. So no they shouldn't be held responsible, in the same way that Wolvy, Scarlett Witch and others have not been.

@impossibilly said:

@CircularLogic said:

So like an alcoholic that get's behind the wheel of a car, the X-men are all responsible for those they killed during AvX.

I agree completely.

To counter that, the Avengers are responsible for the P5 being empowered in the first place

Of course he should be held responsible and as a fellow king he should understand the consequences of his actions and seeing how's he's taking it, he should prepared himself cause T'Challa already stated it and it will happen, Namor better prepare himself cause his time as king draws near to an end.

Yes, because even without the Phoenix, he's an A-Hole.

@White Mage: I never considered that before, that the Avengers were culpable in the Phoenix 5 getting their powers in the first place. It's a very good point. If we're to use the drunk driver metaphor, then the Avengers are the bartender who served the X-Men too much to drink. Under drunk driving laws (at least in NY), I believe that makes them culpable too.

As punishment, let's make them co-star in a comic book together, but have it be drawn by a talented yet chronically late artist.

@impossibilly said:

@White Mage: I never considered that before, that the Avengers were culpable in the Phoenix 5 getting their powers in the first place. It's a very good point. If we're to use the drunk driver metaphor, then the Avengers are the bartender who served the X-Men too much to drink. Under drunk driving laws (at least in NY), I believe that makes them culpable too.

As punishment, let's make them co-star in a comic book together, but have it be drawn by a talented yet chronically late artist.

......................I'm suddenly in the mood for a cocktail

@White Mage said:

......................I'm suddenly in the mood for a cocktail

It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

Yes Namor should take the blame (He is one of my favorites) and I look forward to seeing how BP handles this.

@impossibilly said:

@White Mage said:

......................I'm suddenly in the mood for a cocktail

It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

^

This man says the truth!

Yes, Namor is to blame.

If you don't like that, take it up with Marvel's editors and "architects"

@White Mage said:

@impossibilly said:

@CircularLogic said:

So like an alcoholic that get's behind the wheel of a car, the X-men are all responsible for those they killed during AvX.

I agree completely.

To counter that, the Avengers are responsible for the P5 being empowered in the first place

the P5 knew that by allowing the Phoenix Force to come to earth, there was a chance that it would A) possess somebody, and B) kill people. And it did. it doesn't matter what the Avengers did, because it's ultimately the X-men who allowed this to happen in the first place

@CircularLogic said:

@White Mage said:

@impossibilly said:

@CircularLogic said:

So like an alcoholic that get's behind the wheel of a car, the X-men are all responsible for those they killed during AvX.

I agree completely.

To counter that, the Avengers are responsible for the P5 being empowered in the first place

the P5 knew that by allowing the Phoenix Force to come to earth, there was a chance that it would A) possess somebody, and B) kill people. And it did. it doesn't matter what the Avengers did, because it's ultimately the X-men who allowed this to happen in the first place

The Avengers sought to stop the Phoenix Force from coming to earth, which was unsuccessful. They sought to..."destroy" her, which was unsuccessful. The X-Men saw Hope as the mutant Messiah, which made Wolverine and company kidnap her so that she wouldn't do anything to stop the Phoenix....who is the Phoenix....who cannot be stopped by mere technology....The Phoenix didn't even come to destroy the earth, but if she had, like the Avengers pretty much assumed, who's to stop her from getting what she wants? A fragment defeated Thor repeatedly. She was gonna get her way

Yes because whether in his right mind or not he did the crime. Kinda like drunk driving.

Blaming Namor and Cyclops for something they did while possessed would be like blaming Spider-Woman after Secret Invasion

Ya Namor did what he did no matter what was behind it. thousands of Wakandians aren't will have no sympathy for him being manipulated in any way.

But what the saddest part is is that Black Panther deserves to be pissed and deserves to want Namor dead but if blows were to be thrown Namor would End T'challa.

@gravitypress said:

Yes because whether in his right mind or not he did the crime. Kinda like drunk driving.

Not really. A person makes the decision to get drunk and drive drunk. I don't think Namor actively sought out to become possessed by the Phoenix Force which is why this isn't really a "black and white" issue. Just my opinion.

It's the Black Panthers fault. He is an Avengers and the leader of Wakanda, so when he decided to attack the the X-Men he put Wakanda right in the middle. He knew this too, he tried to stay out of it in the beginning and before attacking he had reservations. After the attack, he took prisoners there and housed them in a city. He let some of the Avengers stay there. He is the leader of a nation and he dragged them into the Avengers war.

@Babs: Perhaps it wasn't his intention to get the PF or part of it but he was intoxicated by its power.

Yup. And while you're a it, so should Scott, Emma, and everybody else that went off the rails. Or did they bring back all those people they killed?

Seriously, we had to watch them fight the heroes all f****** summer, then all of a sudden you want to ask us if they should be punished for wasting our time in the books?

@gravitypress said:

@Babs: Perhaps it wasn't his intention to get the PF or part of it but he was intoxicated by its power.

Yeah, and this intoxication wasn't his own doing, so how in control of himself and his actions was he really?

It's King against King.

Whether it's the Phoenix's fault or Namor's arrogance's fault or Black Panther's fault for taking the fight to his kingdom, or Cyclops' fault for wanting to harness the Phoenix or Emma's ability to affect men -- either way, a kingdom was destroyed.

Namor isn't apologizing, as far as I can tell. These two don't care about the above. They are going to fight and want to fight.

My bet is on Namor, but I want Black Panther to win. Something tells me Cyclops' and friends will be dropping by to skew the odds.

@Babs: That is the question but the Wakandian(spelling) people are not likely to see that as a valid excuse.

I've always seen Namor as more of a rebel and will do anything to suit his needs anyways. And Cyclops had been going off the rails for awhile now. The Phoenix Force may have corrupted them but I think it just brought out the worst part of them. It was probably things they would have done on their own if forced, they are just using it as a scape goat.

i was going to say yes, but if i did then id have to admit Cyclops was fully responsible for the death of Xavier. so im gona say no he wasn't 100% at fault, it was the PF pushing his emotions. Namor's already a powder keg, everything sets the dude off. how many times did he say IMPERIOUS REX during his run with the X-men? how many times has he said it in other books? Namor getting the PF is like giving matches to a pyro.

think of it this way, the PF is alcohol, Namor is a drunk driver and his strength/abilities is the car. no one blames the beer or the car for someone dieing due to a drunk driver. so while he may have been 'under the influence', part of the blame still rests on his shoulder

okay after reading new avengers i change my stance....Let him Die!!!

This question goes right back to the origins of the Phoenix as a cosmic force, rather than just Jean Grey with her powers turned up to 11. At the end of the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean died because her actions were deemed to be too violent and destructive to be forgiven. Then, when they decided to bring her back to life, they retconned the story so that it was the Phoenix taking her place, so that it wasn't Jean's fault.

At the end of the day, if Jean could be excused for her actions as the Phoenix, in which she destroyed an entire solar system and killed billions of living beings, surely the same thinking must be applied to Cyclops, Namor, and the others while they were the Phoenix Five.

Namor must die and a big lol to the clueless posters saying he can't kill Namor. Yes he can...and he will.

nice to see emma frost and namor hooking up. the marvel writers should have them married and make new characters from their offspring.

I would agree that the Phoenix force sort of goaded them into some of their actions, but overall, I think they are responsible for what they did in the end. 80% them 20% Phoenix force.

I can fully understand Black Panther being miffed at Namor, but he is not to blame. The only entity with blood on its hands in Wakanda's downfall is Marvel...someone had to say it.

Maybe the Phoenix Force is like PCP... I mean even under the influence of something you have no control of you are still responsible

. Even if all the phoenix force did was remove the P5's inhibitions, that's still huge. Most people would become douchebags if they lost their inhibitions. Inhibitions are probably the main thing that separates superheroes from supervillains. Superheroes have amazing powers, intelligence, and/or resources and show restraint. They don't take advantage of their powers to get whatever they want, or disintegrate everyone that pisses them off. Supervillains don't use this restraint and that's what makes them the bad guys.

That being said Namor and Emma aren't that far from Supervillains to begin with and were a little too happy to play the villain once they got their power up. I think that Namor should try to make some reparations for what he did, especially considering his position as the leader of a country. And if he isn't repentant in any way, I don't think Black Panther can really be blamed for seeking reparations in his own way, which will be revenge.

All in all he probably has it the best out of the phoenix 5. None of his crimes were committed in the U.S. like Scott and Emma, and he's not having some huge family drama like Illyana and Piotr. Black Panther was even up front about his revenge plans.

With T'challa's intelligence and resources he could have easily just laid in wait making up some convoluted diabolical plan to destroy Namor's life that he would only put into motion years from now just as Namor started to relax, maybe waited till Namor had a wife and a few kids to kill off. He even could have pulled a doc ock, taken over his body and his comic book and Namor would have probably been powerless to stop it. But instead he's given Namor a fair warning and being pretty classy about the whole thing.

I think things are as good as they can get for the guy and that we shouldn't really be feeling sorry for him. It's a shame that he was somewhat coerced into to doing this, but if he doesn't do the right thing and try to atone he's gonna have to face consequences sooner or later.

People using the excuse he was not in charge is no excuse, he has to take responsibility. People who are drunk do... He made a choice to do.

@Mister_Sensational: You forget not all mutant powers are attacking powers. There are also mutants like the morlocks whose mutations are necessary for them to just live. Chamber for example, was left without a lower jaw and chest when de-powered. While he didn't die, I imagine other less connected mutants didn't fare so well. Also, the way comics has defined some mutant powers they are a part of that person as seeing, smelling, hearing, touching, and tasting are to normal folk. Look at the claremont story Taking away a persons most deeply personal senses is basically raping that persons genes by neutering them. Mutilation may not be as bad as murder but doing it to between one hundred thousand and one and a half million innocent people is pretty bad. Also, you seem to forget Avengers: disassembled. She killed ant-man, hawkeye, Agatha Harkness. True she was crazy at the time, but no where near possessed like namor. As Dr Strange explains, a result of using her powers is that reality begins to make less and less sense. It takes a lot of will and calm to control this and the stress of superheroing is a direct threat to that control. i.e. it could easily happen to her again if she stays a hero, so she's a continuing threat without Jeans "the phonix made me kill" excuse, unlike phoenix namor

The swift destruction of Wakanda wasn't even possible without the Phoenix Force. However Namor is a character that takes great pride in his strength and resolve, then both were easily manipulated by the power of the Phoenix. The power itself is what destroyed Wakanda but it was his mental weakness that made it a possible outcome. Namor may be one of the strongest mutants but Black Panther has every reason to put him to task for how weak he truly is.

Just remember everyone, in the issue 2 of new avengers, when the team was taking their roll call, Namor said "I am Namor, the Submariner. I regret nothing."

I took that as a jab at Black Panther. Telling him that he doesn't care about the lives he destroyed.

Though no-one seems to beyond redemption in comics, Namor needs to be broken down and humbled, much like what was done to Black Adam. He needs to be brought down a peg, so not so much killed by BP but certainly brought to his knees, incarceration would definitely be something that I would love to see.

@metroplex02 said:

To hold Cyke or Namor or ANY of the Phoenix Five accountable for their actions is pretty ridiculous. It's not like you fools are blaming Jean Grey right now. I mean, we all got over Tony being ham faced piloting Iron Man, right? Wanda raping Cap then killing Avengers? Legion/Proteus now having his own title? Xorn? I mean, MAGNETO ON UTOPIA?!? Didn't Thor just buy the Punisher a sixer of beers? Heroes are all about forgiveness. It's what good people do. Everybody loves a good redemption story. But. My personal bias is this: Scott Summers was so freaking cool at one point Marvel had to bench Professor X to make room. He got his ass handed to him by a depowered Storm in the 80's because everybody thought he sucked. Well, Morrison and Wheaton proved the Cyke wasn't a wuss. They took him and made him this public figurehead of an affirmative action group. Who could shoot force blasts out of his eyes. Who could forget that last splash page of an Astonishing X-Men comic **"To me, my X-men?"** HE OWNED IT. And yeah, Namor has always been a Dick Cheney, but thankfully he's a bit nobler. The @infomattox verdict IS: The Phoenix Force inhabiting one's body is probably akin to a DMT trip x 1,000,000 so we're willing to give Marvel's "first mutant" a pass on this one. But I think we'd forgive Wanda much easier if she had said "No more winged feet.."

I really don't think I could agree more with everything you said. Fuckin' high-five dude.

Yeah. The thesis put in this article seem to be truth. Especially, when we look at the most famous Phoenix Force bearer - Jean Grey. Her abilities were enhanced as well as her personality faults. The same can be said to Phoenix Five. When I am correct, Jean Grey super-powers were also in some way altered after the Phoenix Force left her. It also caused some problems in her mutation.

Of course Namor wasn't responsible. He's not mentally ill, he's just a douchebag.  
 
In Marvel, the only people who deserve to die are the mentally ill. 

I'd say he's definitely to blame.

Personally I think not. The Phoenix Five had an altered state of mind. And Emma encouraged him to go and take that particular course of action. I also don't by that Namor has no regrets. I think he is too prideful to admit he made a mistake and knows at the end of the day it does not matter to T'challa. He still did what he did and if the roles were reversed he would make the same declaration.

@windcaster said:

Personally I think not. The Phoenix Five had an altered state of mind. And Emma encouraged him to go and take that particular course of action. I also don't by that Namor has no regrets. I think he is too prideful to admit he made a mistake and knows at the end of the day it does not matter to T'challa. He still did what he did and if the roles were reversed he would do the same declaration.

[/QUOTE]

well no un like Namor others don''t think in this way. Which is why I blame tony for this event. With Namor of all people who has a history of this kinda of thing with out a cosmic force would have done this. But he put it in his hands Namor is more unstable then most people in the MU and should never have been given this power cause of the way he has acted in the past. I said this in another thread which is most likely the reason this thread came about

[QUOTE]

@UltraBiel:

Their not forgetting it's on purpose . Like how a lot of the actions Namor did with wakanda which was of his own doing and their( the fan base thats against him ) blaming it on cyclopes when Emma coxed him to do that and Namor does that on a daily basis on his own before that. If some kid was eating cream on the beach and it went in the water and he'd come up to the surface and trash new york for it.

He did that often in the past with or with out the phoenix force. And the fact that the avengers went to wakanda for safety reminded me of that scene in the Micheal bay's transformers movie where the soldiers said to the Auto bots to head into a populated city to fend of the Decepticons from having the matrix . "What??? the hell wrong with you people?." that's what say to those soldiers and what i'd say to the avengers as well. yeah lets head to a populated area, with someone that has history of trashing cities with his tantrums (pre -phoenix force) chasing after us. . It'll be something to laugh about later and conveniently forget. About too.. After all it was the reason half the people in the MU chose iron man over capt America during civil wars end before he was shot during his trial . all due to the last battle being in the city where they said he endangered the civilians as their reason for him have to surrender. they turn on him cause of that.[/QUOTE]

from here.http://www.comicvine.com/cyclops/29-1459/off-my-mind-has-cyclops-saved-mutants-or-doomed-them-all/92-733943/?page=3

Any way yeah the phoenix helped push things but namor's unstable and has already done this kinda of a thing in the past for less and the avengers kept poking the bear. and really they should have set up base in a remote area where others who had nothing to do with it wouldn't be involved that's the avengers fault too. seeing that they know how Namor act's with or with out a cosmic force. he's been on their team enough times for them to know what he'd do and they know his history well. . they caused most of the problems there. I know others don't like to admit it, but they did and should have known better after what capt learned from the public after he was arrested him self after civil war . Keep your damn wars away from the citys and the public.

They seem to really keep shyting on Wakanda. When will Black Panther start kicking a$$ for what happened to his country? He joined the Avengers to spy on them incase they go bad. Well Namor went bad and hit Wakanda with a tidal wave. What happens now with Black Panther,Cyclops,Namor, and Dr.Doom?

He should be held accountable for his actions and so should Scott and the others.The only one i would give a free pass to is to Colossus but even then i probably wouldn't because he chose to become Juggernaut. (im actually upset they took that from him) But just hink what he had going on in his head. He was such a passive person that loved and saw the good in just about everyone, taking on the Juggernaut persona to save his sister from going down that path. Then had the Phoenix Force thrusted on him (this could be said for all 5 of them) But while the others had to deal with one cosmic force. Peter, who is a gentle person at heart, was dealing with two cosmic forces of destruction and even then only tried to help people and animals alike. While he seemed to have lost his mind in thinking that whales should have legs and didnt take into account their weight (which he could have also helped with). The only thing i remember him trying to destroy is his sister. Did he ever really harm anyone?