Should Namor Be Held Responsible For The Destruction Of Wakanda?

Posted by No_Name_ (16193 posts) - - Show Bio

"When this is done, when my wants have replaced my needs, I'm going to kill you." Those are the final words spoken to Namor on the third and final page of the preview to NEW AVENGERS #2 by Jonathan Hickman. They are in reference to the events that transpired in AVENGERS VS. X-MEN #7 and #8 where Namor, at the bidding of Emma Frost, attacks Wakanda, murdering T'Challa's people. Since Namor now has the blood of Wakandians on his hands, T'Challa will seek his revenge upon the King of Atlantis, and chances are that fight will very likely go down in Hickman's current NEW AVENGERS series. The question is, however, was the destruction of Wakanda really Namor's fault?

NEW AVENGERS #2

If you've been following the events of ALL-NEW X-MEN you might recall a series of panels in the third issue of the series where Magneto and Cyclops free Emma Frost from captivity. Following that scene, Emma and Scott get into a heated argument, and Cyclops apologizes profusely his actions when he was taken over by the Phoenix Force. According to that particular scene, all members of the Phoenix Five had had their minds, and powers, altered. In that scene readers are told that these 5 mutants chosen by the Phoenix had an influx of their powers, but that when the Phoenix left them, their natural mutant powers had been altered. Not only have they had their powers shifted in strength and control, but when the Phoenix had its hold of them, they acted irrationally. The dialogue between Scott and Emma indicates that it wasn't Scott who did those horrible things, it was the power of the Phoenix Force. Yet, it's hard to determine whether this applied only to Scott, or if it applied to all members of the Phoenix Five.

== TEASER ==
AVENGERS VS X-MEN #7

In that scene, Scott tells Emma that she "knows it wasn't him," in reference to the murder of Charles Xavier and his betrayal, but Emma seems to disagree. So, was that really Scott who did all those terrible things, or was it the Phoenix Force? If this was all just the Phoenix, should these characters be held responsible for their actions? Following the events of AVENGERS VS. X-MEN Scott Summers was imprisoned for the damage he had caused while under the influence of a power he could not control. But was his imprisonment warranted? Should he be held responsible for the murder of Charles Xavier? And also, should Namor be held responsible for the death and destruction of Wakanda and Black Panther's people?

ALL-NEW X-MEN #3

The way that these two characters (Scott and Namor) had evolved over the last few years might give us a better clue as to how their actions should be judged. Over the last several years Namor's relationship with Black Panther has soured, particularly during the Black Panther run during Dark Reign. During that time it appeared as if Namor had struck a deal with Dr. Doom that allowed Doom to attack Wakanda and cripple the country, taking its resources (Vibranium). If we were to weigh Namor's actions then to what the Phoenix essentially "forced" him to do, it seems like he was already going down a dark path, doesn't it? And the same can sort of be said for Scott, can't it? During the time leading up to A VS X Scott Summers had already taken a hard lined approach to leading the X-Men. In his eyes, he had no choice and therefore he had to become a more aggressive leader. He had to re-establish X-Force. He had to fight the Avengers.

AVENGERS VS. X-MEN #8

So was this the Phoenix doing all the destroying and the killing, or was this the Phoenix merely enhancing these characters and their abilities and shutting off their inhibitions? How much of what happened was the Phoenix, and how much was these characters? What do you think? Do you think Namor should be held responsible for the destruction of Wakanda, and if so, what should Black Panther do about it?

#1 Posted by Squalleon (7470 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor wasn't under the control of the Phoenix he was just arrogant!

He likes to win and since he had the power to do so he didn't care who he will hurt!

#2 Edited by tximinoman (296 posts) - - Show Bio

first?

It's Namor's fault. Of course.

#3 Posted by mightypug78 (365 posts) - - Show Bio

he should take partial blame.

#4 Posted by SUNMAN (7379 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor should be held responsible. He isn't the only one responsible but he is the most culpable in the eyes of the Marvel World. No one else really knows about Emma's involvement.

As far as Wakanda goes this is a Black and White issue. Namor did it everyone saw him do it. He reveled in the destruction, and doesn't seem sorry in fact he seems downright happy about it. As far as Wakanda goes yeah Namor is 100% at fault.

From a readers perspective its a little more complicated. You can point blame at a few characters, but Namor still shoulders the most.

#5 Posted by nielq (2 posts) - - Show Bio

i think it's the editor's fault

#6 Posted by Cafeterialoca (1581 posts) - - Show Bio

You know what I'm wondering?

WHERE IS TRANSONIC?! He destroyed Wakanda to find her, but where she is, NOBODY KNOWS!

#7 Posted by Sloucher (13 posts) - - Show Bio

it seemed to me that the phoenix force just seemed to increase everyones most defining traits, in this case, namor's arrongance.

#8 Posted by Target_X (381 posts) - - Show Bio

Not if Wanda wasn't held responsible for destroying mutantkind. <.<

#9 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (15329 posts) - - Show Bio

You know after seeing that first scan. I know the reason why people love Black Panther.

#10 Posted by x_29 (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes.

#11 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (41003 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope.

If he is then Wolverine and Scarlet Witch should also be judged

#12 Posted by crazed_h3ro (1006 posts) - - Show Bio

I say part of it was caused by the Phoenix, but mostly himself. Namor was the first to suggested a War in Wakanda, no one else were so Brash, not Magik, not Scott, and not Colossus. It may Have been that he was the weakest willed one of the group, but Coming from past Namor experiences, it's hard to believe.

I still don't really like how BP is being portrayed, all Hateful and ill tempered, but it is understandable, he failed the people he swore to protect.

So Should Namor Be Held Responsible For The Destruction Of Wakanda? Well...meh.

#13 Posted by BritishMonkey (352 posts) - - Show Bio

It's half an half. It was Namor with the influence of the Phoenix force.

#14 Posted by GothamRed (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

General rule of AvX, if they were part of cyclops's phoenix five it was probably their fault.

#15 Posted by soduh2 (962 posts) - - Show Bio

@GothamRed said:

General rule of AvX, if they were part of cyclops's phoenix five it was probably their fault.

General rule of AvX, everything is Cyclops' fault.

#16 Posted by YoungDoctor (75 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not the first time Namor has done something like this is it? He once flooded New York back in Human Torch no. 5 back in the early forties (also seen in Marvels no. 1).

#17 Posted by Cavemold (1818 posts) - - Show Bio

yes but when i dobut blame duup!

#18 Edited by CircularLogic (320 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I understand of the Phoenix Force, what it does is remove the bearer's inhibitions. Jean Grey was a severely repressed piece of eye-candy for the X-men before the Phoenix Force came along, but when it did, it reduced the barriers in her personality she put on herself. In that sense, The Phoenix 5 were basically just really drunk (with power). But of course, they willingly accepted the phoenix force to earth, and when they received it's power, they chose to keep it. So like an alcoholic that get's behind the wheel of a car, the X-men are all responsible for those they killed during AvX.

#19 Posted by fodigg (6211 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, because I want to see that fight.

#20 Posted by Lightburst (164 posts) - - Show Bio

If Scarlet witch gets away with destroying an entire race and almost driving them extinction then no he shouldn't be at fault for what happened to Wakanda.

#21 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2525 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't read AvX, but one issue and it seemed like the Pheonix was slowly taking control but not completely. I think The Pheonix Five should take responsibility. I don't think they can be sure themselves how much was them and how much was the Pheonix. But again, I didn't read it.

#22 Posted by Yung ANcient One (5127 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyke should have been like

"So it was the Phoenix Force that was making out with Namor, and sent him to Wakanda... OR WAS IT YOU!?"

*smh* Slim can't seem find a loyal girl. Dam Garden Tools all of em XP

(+)

#23 Edited by Mr. Kamikaze (683 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like when all of them (especially Cyclops) blame the Phoenix Force it feels so...fake. It's an easy scapegoat when the whole time they all seemed pretty damn aware of what they were doing and just became obsessed with it (Like when Quicksilver blamed the Skrulls for him stealing the Terrigan Mists and causing the war between Earth and the Inhumans). Especially Namor, who was already an arrogant prick to begin with. So would I hold him responsible? Yeah, probably...though even if I didn't, he would probably be arrogant enough to convince me that he was responsible...cause that is just who he is.

But flooding a nation isn't really that bad considering Wanda wiped out an entire race...and she's an Avenger now, so...you go gurl. So if that is added to the argument, then yeah...he should definitely get a pass (again...).

#24 Edited by jumpstart55 (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

Hell no. He was under the influence of an immensely super powerful cosmic entity.

None of the five( Cyclops, Emma Frost, Namor, Colossus and Magik) should be blamed they were all under the influence of the phoenix force.

It just isnt fair to blame Namor.

Anyone who blames Namor is just being extremely unfair.

#25 Posted by Imperius_Rex (494 posts) - - Show Bio

Should namor regret his actions? Yeah
Will he? No
namor isn't gonna blame this on a cosmic force. Do you really think he would admit he was in any way some sort of puppet? He's a king a warrior and kind of a badass he did it because he had the power to do it. Phoenix didn't declare war. King namor did.

#26 Posted by No_Name_ (16193 posts) - - Show Bio

@Yung ANcient One said:

Cyke should have been like

"So it was the Phoenix Force that was making out with Namor, and sent him to Wakanda... OR WAS IT YOU!?"

*smh* Slim can't seem find a loyal girl. Dam Garden Tools all of em XP

(+)

Maybe it's less about the girl he's with and more about him. Just saying.

#27 Posted by Nightwing28710 (160 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther killing Namor would make my day.

#28 Posted by UltraBiel (329 posts) - - Show Bio

In the text the author says "The choosen by the Phoenix!"

They were chosen? I thought they merged with the phoenix by an accident , by they way Stark's fault!

#29 Posted by UltraBiel (329 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@GothamRed said:

General rule of AvX, if they were part of cyclops's phoenix five it was probably their fault.

General rule of AvX, everything is Cyclops' fault.

THIS!

#30 Posted by Trevel8182 (755 posts) - - Show Bio

I love that Namor is the Marvel equivalent to Aquaman and in DC Aquaman is the but of every joke, in Marvel no one messes with Aquaman, he will sink your city and have sex with your wife.

#31 Posted by Fantasgasmic (1092 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor is a douche, just like Cyclops. If you blame one, you have to blame both

#32 Posted by StMichalofWilson (4917 posts) - - Show Bio

It was the Phoenix Five's fault. That and Cyclops and Emma...

#33 Posted by Teerack (9547 posts) - - Show Bio

The Phoenix Five shouldn't be held responsible for anything they did the good or the bad.

#35 Posted by dondave (40113 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor, doesn't really care about what he did compared with Cyclops killing Xavier.

So it's not really his fault he did all those things, but he doesn't seem to care that he did

#36 Posted by UnusualEddie (3 posts) - - Show Bio
@Trevel8182 said:

I love that Namor is the Marvel equivalent to Aquaman and in DC Aquaman is the but of every joke, in Marvel no one messes with Aquaman, he will sink your city and have sex with your wife.

I second that...
#37 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (10509 posts) - - Show Bio

Ofcourse He should be. How dare he destroy Wakanda? Screw you Aquaman!

#38 Posted by DH69 (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

dude had the the guts to wear a speedo for about 70 years, he can handle being blamed for destroying wakanda, KING OF THE OCEAN *****!

#39 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3621 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's more likely that the Phoenix Force took parts of their personality and emotions then drove them to extremes. It manipulated them.

People don't hold Wands responsible for nearly wiping out mutants, or Tony for his actions during and following Civil War. Why are the Phoenix Five members held to a higher standard?

#40 Posted by neiliusprime (284 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lightburst said:

If Scarlet witch gets away with destroying an entire race and almost driving them extinction then no he shouldn't be at fault for what happened to Wakanda.

This

#41 Posted by The Stegman (29547 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolutely.

#42 Posted by chocobojam (288 posts) - - Show Bio

The one who's at fault are the writers because they are the one who decided everything that will happen. but seriously, what is wrong with cyclops now!? i thought in AvX consequence that he is taking responsibility for everything but now in All new x-men, he is blaming the phoenix like as if he has nothing to do with it.

#43 Posted by neiliusprime (284 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think Namor was to blame. He always has those angry and hateful thoughts but doesn't succumb to them sometimes. But with the Phoenix Force infecting his mind, it taps into those emotions and forces them out.

#44 Posted by BR_Havoc (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

Clearly it was Namors fault he might of been a little more aggressive with the Phoenix Force but it was still him in the drives seat.

#45 Posted by zackattack529 (1408 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@GothamRed said:

General rule of AvX, if they were part of cyclops's phoenix five it was probably their fault.

General rule of AvX, everything is Cyclops' fault.

And wolverine can murder as he pleases.

In other news Punisher is on the run from the Avengers (including wolverine) for alleged murder.

#46 Posted by jwalser3 (6115 posts) - - Show Bio

You know.... you didn't have to call Namor over then. You could have picked some one else.(I haven't read this yet, sorry if he is vital to BP plan)

#48 Posted by soduh2 (962 posts) - - Show Bio

@zackattack529 said:

@soduh2 said:

@GothamRed said:

General rule of AvX, if they were part of cyclops's phoenix five it was probably their fault.

General rule of AvX, everything is Cyclops' fault.

And wolverine can murder as he pleases.

In other news Punisher is on the run from the Avengers (including wolverine) for alleged murder.

Exactly, Wolverine is "cool" so he's automatically vindicated.

#49 Posted by mtrakos (566 posts) - - Show Bio

Love Namor. Never says sorry, always does what he thinks is right.

Not a hero not a villan, just Namor

#50 Posted by sunhawk (650 posts) - - Show Bio

Off to the negative zone with him!

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