New 52 Mr. Freeze Discussion (Spoilers)

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#1 Posted by SupBatz (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

Snyder's Batman Annual 1 has without a doubt received nearly universal praise for being very well written and skillfully planned. It is no doubt one of Mr. Freeze's greatest comic book appearances.

Nevertheless, the alterations to Mr. Freeze's origin has been very controversial. Many have been reluctant to accept so large a change (myself included). I am very intrigued by this new twist but at the same time I am saddened by the fact that he has been made somewhat harder to sympathize for and that the epic love story has been destroyed.

Still, this does open up quite a few possibilities for Freeze in the future. Please share any thoughts that anybody has on Freeze's alterations.

#2 Posted by Cavemold (1669 posts) - - Show Bio

I like it , it leaves a opening for more stories

#3 Posted by The_Tree (7048 posts) - - Show Bio

I just read about it online, I hate it. Why I liked Freeze so much was because I sympathized with him, now I don't really do.

#4 Posted by RedOwl_1 (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

I like it more now, makes he look more "Dude he's kinda insane" instead "Aww poor guy", at least for me because instead sympathize with him, I thought he was pathetic (I'm more of look forward instead behind)

Also idk if I got the idea well (English is my second lenguage) but is

That woman Freeze's mother?!? if she is the story makes even more sense than when being his wife, you can love a lot your wife or hate her but nothing is going to make you truly hate your mother.
#5 Posted by salmy (32 posts) - - Show Bio

@RedOwl_1: I don't believe it is. His mother was over in Nebraska, and Batman still gives a lot of info on Nora and Mr. Freeze calls her Nora, but maybe she is in a later twist.

I don't like it, I agree with The_Tree, he's just crazy now. I always thought Mr. Freeze was a good antihero, he's like Poison Ivy, they commit crimes but for love. I guess he still does it for love but it's just kind of sad. If he's secretly trying to save his Mom in a hidden lab somewhere or something it'd be cool but then at the end of the comic he kills her? I prefer the old undying love for his wife, his real wife.

#6 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

i liked this new twist....its downright creepy... dude scares me now..

#7 Posted by SupBatz (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Tree said:

I just read about it online, I hate it. Why I liked Freeze so much was because I sympathized with him, now I don't really do.

I don't really think you get the full affect just reading about it. I mean, when I first read it, I thought I read it wrong and went back and read it again. I was very surprised, as one would expect, but I still felt sympathy for Mr. Freeze. It's not that he's become unsympathetic so much as it is that Mr. Freeze has been made into a more "insane" (for lack of better word) villain.

#8 Posted by htb106 (1641 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read the annual yet but I really want to soon so I can see the new origin!

#9 Edited by NinaColada (37 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't particular like it.

Freeze is portrayed as a psycho and delusional (i.e. pushes woman into the ice, refers to frozen subject as "Nora") where in previous appearances he was a well respected, "sane" scientist who the audience could sympathize with. Also how he previously worked for Wayne.

Plus I don't like how that person isn't Nora and that he's portrayed (as I previously said) as delusional and weird.

It was well written but I don't like the massive changes.

I agree with previous posts, how Freeze could be considered an anti-hero like Ivy, now he's just creepy.

#10 Posted by edge0076 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like it either. Before he was driven made by the lost love he share with his wife, but now he's just another guy who cares more about his own schtick than anything else. I mean, seriously, doesn't Bats have enough villains like that? Freeze has now lost everything that made him interesting and unique.

#11 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, not a fan. Kinda took Freeze's most interesting characteristic and disposed of it.

#12 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

Was it a well-written story with good art? YES!

Was it worth it? HELL NO!!!

#13 Posted by Billy Batson (57704 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh, Mr. Freeze has always sucked. That's why there's Captain Cold (the pre-DCnU version).
BB

#14 Posted by SupBatz (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

Not to play devil's advocate but Freeze wasn't exactly "anti-hero" material before the DCnU either. He's always been the bad guy who cares about absolutely nothing except Nora and is willing to freeze and kill anybody who gets his way.

The only difference now is that his love for Nora is unreciprocated. He must have done a lot of research on Nora when he wrote his doctoral thesis on her and so it's conceivable he might develop an attatchment to her. Couple that with a bit of psychoticism and you have where we are now.

I was uncertain earlier but I've decided that I like the twist. It's an interesting approach and, when you think about it, not too drastic a change for Freeze as a character.

And to be honest I don't think that in any cannon Freeze could ever turn out to be an anti-hero as previously stated unless Nora was in danger. Aside from that, he'd never go out of his way for somebody else unnecessarily.

#15 Posted by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

@X35 said:

Yeah, not a fan. Kinda took Freeze's most interesting characteristic and disposed of it.

this

#16 Posted by Red_Robin212 (89 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the Book as a whole but I HATED what Snyder did to Freeze & Nora.

#17 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

Breaking news: Comic fans don't like change! World reacts with shock and awe!

(TIC)

I think it was certainly an interesting direction to drive the character. While I liked the previous design better, it had played out its purpose a thousand times over and was worn. At least this is something new. There are new doors and new possibilities invited by it. It doesn't jeopardize the strength of past tales like Heart of Ice, but it keeps Fries relevant, IMHO.

#18 Posted by Grey56 (723 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Tree: Couldn't agree more. In fact, I stormed out from reading it to write a review on here. Even the wanted to know what I was fuming about. Utter garbage.

#19 Posted by War Killer (19860 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked the new Freeze.

#20 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Red_Robin212 said:

I loved the Book as a whole but I HATED what Snyder did to Freeze & Nora.

this

#21 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, they made him entirely unsympathetic, but on the other hand, now he's just crazy.

So... torn.

#22 Posted by Nighthunter (28578 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair, as great as Freeze was the fact is that he had limited potential for stories. All of his best stories were made in other media in one-shots because if he keeps comming back as a villain every single time you either lose the sympathy or make the same story over and over again.

#23 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't mind the alteration. If anything it just makes the man that much more crazy.

#24 Posted by RigorMortis (87 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because Freeze is crazy doesn't mean you can't still empathize with him. He truly believes that woman is his wife. The motivation is the same. It is simply made more complex.

#25 Edited by The Lobster (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everyone who likes this new freeze. I like him too. 
 
First of all, my main complaint with freeze was that he never seemed like he should be locked up in Arkham. He wasn't crazy he just cared for his wife. Now his obsession and stalker like tendencies make a lot more sense for him being put in an insane asylum. I can understand why this might take away from him being sympathetic for some readers but I still feel sorry for Freeze, it's just a different kind of sorry. Before it was like a "Awe he just loves his wife" sorry, now it's an "Awe he's so pathetic" kind of sorry. 
 
I feel sorry for him because of how sad he is as a human. He couldn't find any human interaction as a normal person so just he made one up in order to fill that void. It's kinda tragic in it's own way when you think about it.

#26 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone that likes what Snyder did with freeze doesn't understand the beauty of the character in general.

Also I'm amazed that such a blatant rip off of such an incredibly badly received origin is praised. Seriously, the "new" freeze is a complete hack rip off of the 90s Batman Forever Riddler origin.

#27 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how this Mr. Freeze is an improvement. He's basically Norman Bates if Psycho was directed by M. Night Shyamalan.

It's certainly true that the tragic origin Batman: TAS gave him does limit his story potential but why is that a bad thing? That just means he would have to be used sparingly and in stories that are well thought out.

If he's just a mad scientist with ice powers, they can trot him out whenever they want without any interesting reason or plot.

#28 Posted by SupBatz (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone that likes what Snyder did with freeze doesn't understand the beauty of the character in general.

Also I'm amazed that such a blatant rip off of such an incredibly badly received origin is praised. Seriously, the "new" freeze is a complete hack rip off of the 90s Batman Forever Riddler origin.

@Durakken said:

I disagree with both statements. I respect both origins. They both have their high points but I think, if executed properly in the future, the new 52 origin could prove to work even better than the original.

And I don't see any connection between the new origin and that of the Riddler in Batman Forever. While we're on that page; you speak as if theprevious origin of Mr. Freeze was incredibly original. The "driven to crime due to the illness of a loved one" origin is a huge cliche - that's not to say it did not work for Mr. Freeze, because it did - just that it sort of contradicts what you're claiming about a new origin being a rip off (in other words, a cliche).

#29 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

Anyone that likes what Snyder did with freeze doesn't understand the beauty of the character in general.

Also I'm amazed that such a blatant rip off of such an incredibly badly received origin is praised. Seriously, the "new" freeze is a complete hack rip off of the 90s Batman Forever Riddler origin.

@Durakken said:

I disagree with both statements. I respect both origins. They both have their high points but I think, if executed properly in the future, the new 52 origin could prove to work even better than the original.

And I don't see any connection between the new origin and that of the Riddler in Batman Forever. While we're on that page; you speak as if theprevious origin of Mr. Freeze was incredibly original. The "driven to crime due to the illness of a loved one" origin is a huge cliche - that's not to say it did not work for Mr. Freeze, because it did - just that it sort of contradicts what you're claiming about a new origin being a rip off (in other words, a cliche).

You are using that word, respect, wrong. The new origin, like so many of the others, simply shows a lack of understanding of human psychology and degrades the character from where they were previously. The fact that Nora isn't his real wife and all like that takes away from the character by making whatever view Freeze has is now illegitimate and is just generated by delusion crazy person with pyschopathic tendencies where as the original story reflects the lengths we'll go for the ones we love which reflects on Bruce and all the Super beings out there. Not only that but it is one of those times where Bruce can be seen to be pretty much 100% wrong in what he is doing depending on the variations of the story.

This to me just wreaks of more "We suck as creative people so we're going to rip off work, destroy good characters because we can't use them right, and try to make our mark, not by adding to the world we have been left in charge of but by destroying it." And yes, that is what these people are doing as it is written in not so many words throughout several of the comics and several of the interviews and how they are handling everything in general. The people who are in charge of DC and who are "creating" for DC as far as I can see have very little respect for DC or their fans. They think you are too stupid to understand the psychology of Batman stuff, that you won't pick up on the rip offs and retellings of the same bloody story, of the racism, of the sexism, and the general over all dumbing down of the entirety of DC. And you think they have this grand master plan, maybe they are right. It's not like Geoff Johns can't keep the timeline right or that they realize that the 12 months of comics out so far have disjointed timelines in their own right with super boybeing over the course of 3 months, Supergirl 2 days, Superman over several weeks, and so on and so on, but worse of all, most of books haven't even gotten much story telling done. Each issue is like reading Bleach issues for most of the DC books, but Bleach is releases weekly so even that moves faster and tells stories better.

The New52 will only be better to those who want dumber comics, which admittedly is a much larger market, but I would never want my claim to fame being "I was able to sell things to stupid people at the expense of quality product"

As far as it being a rip off. Yes it is cliche to some degree, but there is a line that is crossed between cliche and ripped off. What happens in the comic is pretty much lifted from Batman Forever with Nora and Cryogenics replacing the 3D TV signal beamed into the head. The only other real difference is that Freeze doesn't kill the guying showing Bruce around. Cliche isn't bad, in fact if it were, it wouldn't be cliche, but when you so blatantly steal pretty fully like this does it is no longer just cliche. It is stealing, ripping off, whatever you want to call it.

Oh and one last thing, this story, ruins yet another unique quality of Freeze's which is the relationship he has with Bruce/Batman, where Freeze is not a bad guy at heart (just like Harley Quinn, another char ruined by the New52) and his goals are worthy of supporting. As such Bruce is willing to work with Freeze and Freeze is more than willing to take Bruce's help. This new origin, that can be no longer be the case and is no longer the case.

#30 Posted by SupBatz (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

batman

@SupBatz said:

Anyone that likes what Snyder did with freeze doesn't understand the beauty of the character in general.

Also I'm amazed that such a blatant rip off of such an incredibly badly received origin is praised. Seriously, the "new" freeze is a complete hack rip off of the 90s Batman Forever Riddler origin.

@Durakken said:

I disagree with both statements. I respect both origins. They both have their high points but I think, if executed properly in the future, the new 52 origin could prove to work even better than the original.

And I don't see any connection between the new origin and that of the Riddler in Batman Forever. While we're on that page; you speak as if theprevious origin of Mr. Freeze was incredibly original. The "driven to crime due to the illness of a loved one" origin is a huge cliche - that's not to say it did not work for Mr. Freeze, because it did - just that it sort of contradicts what you're claiming about a new origin being a rip off (in other words, a cliche).

You are using that word, respect, wrong. The new origin, like so many of the others, simply shows a lack of understanding of human psychology and degrades the character from where they were previously. The fact that Nora isn't his real wife and all like that takes away from the character by making whatever view Freeze has is now illegitimate and is just generated by delusion crazy person with pyschopathic tendencies where as the original story reflects the lengths we'll go for the ones we love which reflects on Bruce and all the Super beings out there. Not only that but it is one of those times where Bruce can be seen to be pretty much 100% wrong in what he is doing depending on the variations of the story.

This to me just wreaks of more "We suck as creative people so we're going to rip off work, destroy good characters because we can't use them right, and try to make our mark, not by adding to the world we have been left in charge of but by destroying it." And yes, that is what these people are doing as it is written in not so many words throughout several of the comics and several of the interviews and how they are handling everything in general. The people who are in charge of DC and who are "creating" for DC as far as I can see have very little respect for DC or their fans. They think you are too stupid to understand the psychology of Batman stuff, that you won't pick up on the rip offs and retellings of the same bloody story, of the racism, of the sexism, and the general over all dumbing down of the entirety of DC. And you think they have this grand master plan, maybe they are right. It's not like Geoff Johns can't keep the timeline right or that they realize that the 12 months of comics out so far have disjointed timelines in their own right with super boybeing over the course of 3 months, Supergirl 2 days, Superman over several weeks, and so on and so on, but worse of all, most of books haven't even gotten much story telling done. Each issue is like reading Bleach issues for most of the DC books, but Bleach is releases weekly so even that moves faster and tells stories better.

The New52 will only be better to those who want dumber comics, which admittedly is a much larger market, but I would never want my claim to fame being "I was able to sell things to stupid people at the expense of quality product"

As far as it being a rip off. Yes it is cliche to some degree, but there is a line that is crossed between cliche and ripped off. What happens in the comic is pretty much lifted from Batman Forever with Nora and Cryogenics replacing the 3D TV signal beamed into the head. The only other real difference is that Freeze doesn't kill the guying showing Bruce around. Cliche isn't bad, in fact if it were, it wouldn't be cliche, but when you so blatantly steal pretty fully like this does it is no longer just cliche. It is stealing, ripping off, whatever you want to call it.

Oh and one last thing, this story, ruins yet another unique quality of Freeze's which is the relationship he has with Bruce/Batman, where Freeze is not a bad guy at heart (just like Harley Quinn, another char ruined by the New52) and his goals are worthy of supporting. As such Bruce is willing to work with Freeze and Freeze is more than willing to take Bruce's help. This new origin, that can be no longer be the case and is no longer the case.

I agree with some of the points you are making but strongly disagree with some others. I'll start with the minor part; I don't think that this new origin is a rip off of Batman Forever's Riddler (or that this particular Riddler origin even dawned in the mind of Snyder while he was writing). I still don't see a big correlation betwween the two circumstances. If anything, I think the only real similarity is that both media involved an employee of Bruce being driven to crime by a lab accident after having their work disrespected - now this is an incredibly common form of origin when it comes to comic books. Why is this? Because it works. The "mad scientist angered at not being respected for his work" angle has been around for hundreds of years. It provides a motivation for the character and a way to bridge real-life sort of science and an impressive level of intelligence with a set of circumstances that can result in the creation of a supervillain. Such methods of instilling some sort of edge or "superpower" are more a cliche than a trademark. Thus, I don't think it's fair to say that Batman Forever owns the idea of such an origin. I think it's a more of a schema which is a base to be altered depending on the origin story being told. The true beef that one could have with Mr. Freeze's new origin doesn't lie in its conception but in the way it alters how we feel about Freeze.

Now, I very much agree with what you said about the original origin reflecting people going through incredible lengths to protect the ones they love. This in itself gives us a way to sympathize with Freeze as it is a darker reflection of the origins of several heroes (as you previously stated). However, motivation aside, it does not justify the extreme actions that Freeze employs. We've seen Mr. Freeze operate as the cold-hearted monster willing to go through any lengths to secure two things - revenge and his wife's health and happiness. No amount of love for his wife can possibly justify the murder and havok he has caused prior to the new 52. If anything, this new origin leaves almost everything the same (Mr. Freeze still has the same two motivations - revenge and Nora). The only thing that is different now is that we are not sure whether or not we can justify his actions anymore (despite the fact that his actions, motives, and personality largely remain in tact). Now, it depends on who you ask whether or not this is a bad thing. I personally think that this alteration gives Freeze a lot of new potential. Being that Nora not being his real wife was the "big reveal" of the issue, we did not really get to see Mr. Freeze's side of the argument. I think that, if explored further by a good writer, Mr. Freeze can be shown to still be a sympathetic character. Here we have the man who has been alone all his life and has been unable to truly relate to anyone or anything except for the cold. Snyder presents the point that Victor wrote a paper on Nora in college - his first exposure to her. Naturally he would need to learn a lot about her life and her condition in order to write such a paper. It is conceivable that upon studying her as he did he would delude himself into feeling that he had fallen in love with the woman (even though, as Batman stated, he is only interested in her because of her current condition). If properly explored, Mr. Freeze can be seen as a lost character (much like many characters in Batman) who has allowed obsession to dratically alter his life and his thoughts. I could go on with "what ifs" and "maybes" but the fact of the matter is that everything depends on the future. If this new origin of Mr. Freeze is properly explored in the future, I really believe that it can open up new doors for the character and that he can retain some of his best qualities from pre-Flashpoint while even gaining new qualities and a vast number of potential stories.

And, on a side note, I don't think it's fair to say that comic book writers lack understanding of human psychology nor that it's fair to say that they disrespect the intelligence of readers. The new origin of Mr. Freeze, while questionable as a choice at the moment, was presented in an intelligent manner much like many new stories in the past year have been. I honestly don't think that storytelling, characterization, plot, or intelligence of comic books have changed at all over the past decade. True, it all really depends on the writer but I think overall quality of the works has remained constant. The only thing that's really changing is new ideas and concepts. Like you said, the new timeline is very screwed up at the moment but it's still new. I try not to focus too much on it and to instead focus on the storytelling. As everybody becomes more comfortable with the new universe minor problems like the timeline will fix themselves. As I said when explaining my stance on Mr. Freeze, everything happening right now is just the set-up - the way things are built upon and written in the future will determine everything.

#31 Edited by 47Taskmaster47 (406 posts) - - Show Bio
I Thought that the person frozen was actually Mr. Freeze's mom. At the end you see him push her into the water to freeze her so that he can work on a cure. IDK that is just what I first thought.

So far I don't mind the change to Mr. Freeze.

#32 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz:

Yes, if Freeze was disrespected you might have a case, but that isn't what happened, and it didn't happen in Batman Forever. In both Bruce is being shown around his corporations and the labs there-in by some manager. They come upon a Lab that was supposed to be shut down and the scientist comes up and makes his case which Bruce then says "Your research is fascinating but there are moral issues." After this point, Bruce walks away and the scientists take drastic measures to keep going with their project which then ends up with them gaining their powers. The only difference is that Nigma hides himself for a while and kill the boss while Freis is confronted with problems right away. Both scientists are treated with as much respect as they would, especially after stepping over the line and not doing their job and doing so with things that could be seen as immoral.

The whole scene and scenario is ripped from Batman Forever and it is literally impossible for Snyder to have not seen what he was doing considering how well known Batman Forever is and all that.

As far as not being able to justify how far Freeze goes... that is the point. If he could justify it then he wouldn't be in Arkham. (which also shows the lack of understanding of the character which is stated by Snyder) Freeze is Criminally Insane in pre-flashpoint. The point of the character is that love can make you go insane and all that and allows you to connect with the story by asking "Could I be capable of that in that situation?" Because we all can fall in love and all can get obsessed and because we haven't been pushed to those limits we really don't know whether we are capable of it or not. On the other hand, this new rendition, we can not possibly understand Freeze, because Freeze is simply delusional and is the type of insanity that takes away depth from the character and makes him a "Oh well we can just throw him in here because he's insane" type.

Oh but this is even worse than that now that I think of it because the whole dropping someone in the ice as a kid is lifted from Penguin's mini-series (which if you haven't read you should) and we aren't really explained why other than "He's insane".

As far as the timeline. It is clear that they either don't understand the DCU or are disrespecting it. It could be either, with the whole "5 years" thing. CoIE sets up 10 years because, even without much solid canon they knew that it was pretty much impossible to fit the timeline in less, and yet these idiots come along and go, now that there is years of dense canon that could barely fit in the 20+ years they go "nope...5 years." And this whole #0 month with the purpose to tell the origins of characters... That's what they have been doing or supposed to have doing for the last year and they have failed hard core in most of that.

#33 Posted by SupBatz (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken:

While I see your point, I still don't think that Freeze's new origin is a rip off of Batman Forever. It's a relatively common sort of origin and, as I said before, reminiscent of a sort of "mad scientist". It anything, it takes more elements from B:TAS's "Heart of Ice" (as is to be expected). Victor Fries works for a big company studying crygenics. His job, however, is really a front for him to further his own interests - specifically preserving Nora and trying to find a means of curing her. He is told his work is in danger of being shut down ("Heart of Ice" - financial reasons; "Batman Annual" - moral reasons). Fries does not heed the warning. His boss comes to shut down his work upon discovering Fries' alterior motives, and he is frozen by his own cryogenic technology. It's not really fair to say that the entire story (or even any of it) was drawn from Batman forever because Snyder, like any writer giving an old character a new origin, took the character's previous origin and changed it to fit the twist he was adding to the character. I highly doubt that Batman Forever even crossed his mind in the process.

As far as the sympathy goes - you present a good point (regarding the "Could everyone be capable of this in his situation?"). That quality in itself is lost but I still am hopeful that Freeze, in the future, will be written in a sympathetic light. That he was bring the fact that he studied Nora for years and feels that he knows her. That his motivations, like any well-minded citizen's, are to help a defenseless girl.

And, as far as the origin "mak[ing] him a 'Oh well we can just throw him in here because he's insane' type" character, we should wait before passing that judgment. While it is entirely possible that you are absolutely right and Freeze will be thrown in anywhere (even if he doesn't benefit the story) because of his new origin and wacko status, it is also quite possible that he will be used sparingly (as he should be) when it concerns rescuing the woman he believes he loves. He has yet to make an appearance since his origin was revealed (albeit that was not too long ago) and until he is used in a way where he was just thrown in because he is "insane" we should not assume he will be.

I haven't read the Penguin miniseries (though I've heard good things about it). But I don't think we can say that Snyder stole that from it. This is Mr. Freeze after all. Freezing people is his M.O. And Snyder was trying to establish his growing fascination with the cold along with his lack of empathy. What better way is there than showing him, as a child, throwing his half-brain-dead mother into freezing water? To be fair though, I haven't read the miniseries so you could be completely right. I'll reserve judgment on that detail until I come across Penguin.

As far as I'm concerned, people down at DC are far too concerned about the timeline to the point where they're making stupid and contradictory decisions regarding it. They want all of their heroes to be young and just starting out so they're shrinking down everyone's timeline. Batman takes the bulk of the beating as a result. It's like you said, the DC staff comes and goes so hopefully this whole mess will be rectified when someone new comes along. I've always believed that when it comes to characters who have been around for decades (particularly comic book characters) it's best to not let the timeline rule the writing. Just keep making good stories and I won't be thinking "how did all of this stuff happen and Batman is so young?" or any such questions.

#34 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

@Durakken:

1. While I see your point, I still don't think that Freeze's new origin is a rip off of Batman Forever. It's a relatively common sort of origin and, as I said before, reminiscent of a sort of "mad scientist". It anything, it takes more elements from B:TAS's "Heart of Ice" (as is to be expected). Victor Fries works for a big company studying crygenics. His job, however, is really a front for him to further his own interests - specifically preserving Nora and trying to find a means of curing her. He is told his work is in danger of being shut down ("Heart of Ice" - financial reasons; "Batman Annual" - moral reasons). Fries does not heed the warning. His boss comes to shut down his work upon discovering Fries' alterior motives, and he is frozen by his own cryogenic technology. It's not really fair to say that the entire story (or even any of it) was drawn from Batman forever because Snyder, like any writer giving an old character a new origin, took the character's previous origin and changed it to fit the twist he was adding to the character. I highly doubt that Batman Forever even crossed his mind in the process.

As far as the sympathy goes - you present a good point (regarding the "Could everyone be capable of this in his situation?"). That quality in itself is lost but I still am hopeful that Freeze, in the future, will be written in a sympathetic light. That he was bring the fact that he studied Nora for years and feels that he knows her. That his motivations, like any well-minded citizen's, are to help a defenseless girl.

2. And, as far as the origin "mak[ing] him a 'Oh well we can just throw him in here because he's insane' type" character, we should wait before passing that judgment. While it is entirely possible that you are absolutely right and Freeze will be thrown in anywhere (even if he doesn't benefit the story) because of his new origin and wacko status, it is also quite possible that he will be used sparingly (as he should be) when it concerns rescuing the woman he believes he loves. He has yet to make an appearance since his origin was revealed (albeit that was not too long ago) and until he is used in a way where he was just thrown in because he is "insane" we should not assume he will be.

3. I haven't read the Penguin miniseries (though I've heard good things about it). But I don't think we can say that Snyder stole that from it. This is Mr. Freeze after all. 4. Freezing people is his M.O. And Snyder was trying to establish his growing fascination with the cold along with his lack of empathy. What better way is there than showing him, as a child, throwing his half-brain-dead mother into freezing water? To be fair though, I haven't read the miniseries so you could be completely right. I'll reserve judgment on that detail until I come across Penguin.

5. As far as I'm concerned, people down at DC are far too concerned about the timeline to the point where they're making stupid and contradictory decisions regarding it. They want all of their heroes to be young and just starting out so they're shrinking down everyone's timeline. Batman takes the bulk of the beating as a result. It's like you said, the DC staff comes and goes so hopefully this whole mess will be rectified when someone new comes along. I've always believed that when it comes to characters who have been around for decades (particularly comic book characters) it's best to not let the timeline rule the writing. Just keep making good stories and I won't be thinking "how did all of this stuff happen and Batman is so young?" or any such questions.

This site's quoting system sucks. It is so not easy breaking up a quote and I don't feel like doing it... so I think I'm just going to throw a bold number as a reference point in the quote.

1. In Heart of Ice I forget whether Fries works for Waynetech or not, but if I remember right story goes something like: Fries was a cryogenics scientist whose wife contracts an incurable disease. So Fries freezes her in hopes that a one day soon a cure will be discovered and will a defreezing method. In the Pre-Flashpoint storyline he did this secretly, but in B:TAS it was well known by the company who she was and all that. In B:TAS he is fired due to the research being scrapped and Nora's chamber is to be powered down, which btw would be illegal in the real world and Fries would have every right to not only rescue her but anyone else he saw fit to in that scenario. During the shenanigans to save Nora Fries is hit with his own chemicals and is frozen himself. In the Pre-Flashpoint continuity Fries is working with a company that is forcing him to weaponize cryogenics and he is refusing to complete such a dangerous weapon. He is then fired, Nora is to be decommissioned, and his research is going to be used to weaponize his research. All this happens at once and Fries tries to save Nora by sneaking into the lab. He is caught and in the heat of the moment gets hit with the Cryo chemicals, turning him into Fries.

Both of these stories are so well done because Fries is in the right in both of them. He's a good guy, trying to do what is right, but is screwed over by the system and so, he snaps. His actions reflect an attitude of he tried to be the good guy and tried to do everything right, but in the end all it has done for him is make him a monster, taken away his life, and most importantly his true love.

The Bizzaro Freeze is simply a delusional psychopath who has fabricated a false memory who is dangerous to everyone, including himself. He lacks a depth of character and we as readers do not sympathize with him because in the end he is wrong at every point. He's never right. He's not a good guy. He's nothing more than Zsasz with ice gun rather than a knife and not only is Bruce justified if Nora isn't his wife in this scenario he is justified even if she is. So now we have no psyche conflict with Batman either because Bruce is 100% right in this situation.

2. Here's the thing. If he isn't written that way then the origin story makes no sense because the character isn't the same. If the character isn't the same then that isn't his origin. It's a loop.A character develops from the events that happen in their life. There is a logical progression from point A to point C where B must be crossed and A must still be able to be seen within that character at point C. More importantly, Snyder's reasoning for doing this is because even though he loves B:TAS and the great stories in there, there are few if any in the comics (which is BS by the way. Fries' Pre-Flashpoint origin for one is a good story, as is Nora's revival, and the Gotham PD series story) and that they use him too sparingly because He doesn't fit in just anywhere. Or if you read what he means is that "we suck too much to write good stories that use Fries' great character so we are making him a shallow character that we can toss in anywhere," and there isn't really any other way to read that because the writers of DC are the ones responsible for more, better, story with Fries so if there aren't more it is them who can't write them. Also do you want to say that Night of Owls happened before or after his new origin was told? Either way this type of thing had to have been known well in advance and the Freeze character in Night of Owls does not reflect this origin.

3. Read it. That miniseries is great, though it does ease back towards the end.

4. The over the top obsession with the cold and the Lack of empathy are traits that develop out of the facts of his story above, AFTER, he becomes Freeze, which makes sense. He has been screwed by the world and he is stuck in a frozen world trying to revive a frozen wife. He because obsessed because of him cracking under all that has happened. Bizarro Freeze we are supposed to believe he has a lack of empathy and such but also that he empathizes and loves the frozen girl. There is no reason for him to become a scientist fascinated by the cold because we don't see him seeing that the ice can be used to preserve people, but rather we see him hurt people and he uses it to kill someone he supposedly loves. These things are contradictory and the events of the child Fries would never give rise to the Scientist Fries and he would never give rise to what we saw in Night of Owls.

5. I would love to get my hands on Didio and Lee and just kick them in the balls for hour for what the have done. I would also love to get my hands on the DCU and create something akin to the Marvel Ultimate Universe which they are somewhat doing, but doing such a horrible job at it. One of the first things I'd do is create a series of books, telling the history of the DC that would be like 100 pages and be the absolute authority to all the important events that happened that year of the DCU. Actually there would be 2 series. One going forward in time and one going backward. The one going forward would come out pretty quickly and then maybe once every couple years while the one going backwards would have to stop somewhere. The Series going forward would be called "After Superman" and the one going back would be "Before Superman." Everything in those books would be an absolute canon at least for DC Ultimate and the AS and BS time scale would become the way time is measured. There would obviously problems as time goes on, but it would give a very solid base for quite long time for people to write stories around and on.

#35 Edited by DEGRAAF (7868 posts) - - Show Bio

I must have missed this issue so i have some questions since its not stated on his page

1.) what are his powers and abilities now?

2.) So he doesnt have a wife now? He is disillusionaly in love with a frozen patient from the 40's?

3.) How does his origin or him in any way have anything to do with the Night of Owls?

#36 Edited by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

@DEGRAAF said:

I must have missed this issue so i have some questions since its not stated on his page

1.) what are his powers and abilities now?

2.) So he doesnt have a wife now? He is disillusionaly in love with a frozen patient from the 40's?

3.) How does his origin or him in any way have anything to do with the Night of Owls?

1) In terms of equipment he now has ice grenades in addition to the gun and the armor.The armor appears to be more durable as Batman had to insert a plot device inside it to shut it down.

2)Nope and yes.

3)The serum he intended to use in order to revive "the woman"(bye Nora) was taken by the Court of Owls who used it to bring their dead Talons back to life.

In short this issue whilst enjoyable took Freeze's only interesting trait and disposed it.I hated fans blowing Freeze's sympathy angle out of proportion but damn even I would'nt wish this on him.Never cared for the character so I'm indifferent here but he's most certainly lost a lot in terms of character.

#37 Posted by DEGRAAF (7868 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: thanks. But now he doesnt need his gun if he didnt want? He can seem to freeze things and people thru touch now?

#38 Posted by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

@DEGRAAF said:

@entropy_aegis: thanks. But now he doesnt need his gun if he didnt want? He can seem to freeze things and people thru touch now?

Hmmm I'll read it again and get back to you,but he only froze people without his gun back at Arkham by cutting the pipes in his cell and using the liquid that keeps him alive against the guards.I dont recall him doing anything else and he definitely needed his guns or why bother going to Ice Berg lounge to get his equipment.

#39 Posted by DEGRAAF (7868 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: i was thinking of his encounter with Nightwing and Robin where he freezes Nightwing with his gun and then grabs Robin by his arm and threatens to break it off or something

#40 Posted by sinestro_GL (3030 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope...I don't like his re-imagining either.

Like many of us, I'd imagine, we were all big fans of how the animated series redefined Freeze's tragic tale - a character very well written, whose motivations are clear.

After this issue, I kinda hate the guy...creepy sonofabitch...

#41 Edited by velvetmeds (83 posts) - - Show Bio

I like it. I never like anything that revolves (at least too much) around love/romance, so i'm glad they ripped that out of him and turned him into someone... colder.

Just a matter of subjectivity though, i can understand why several people would be disappointed with the change. But personally i thought the Nora thing was lame, couldn't possibly sympathize with something i care so little about, and that this is better.

#42 Posted by BR_Havoc (1255 posts) - - Show Bio

They took a villain that was different compared to many other Batman villains, Freeze was smart, philosophical and would do anything for love. It was tragic and I thought he was a great villain. Now he went from being an A- Batman to another D rated psycho for Batman to fight for an issue or two like Victor Victor Zsasz.

I think Snyder is a talented writer but to me this was him saying I am not as good as Dini and I can only write dark brooding tales.

#43 Posted by Rheza (2 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally hated the new Mr.Fries because I loved the villian. He was one of the only villains in Batman's rogues gallery that made me empathize with him. Now he's just a nut. I mean anyone who watched Batman TAS: Heart of Ice will understand what I'm talking about.

#44 Edited by RazielWraith (583 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't bought a DC comic book in years (they were mostly Star Trek comics when DC owned them) and I have pretty much given up on Marvel.

I sometimes think about collecting DC again... but the only character I can think of reading about is Mr. Freeze, any other Batman villain I liked only appeared in the 90's animated series. But now that they've done this to him... made him into just another psychopath with no real motive... I'm just going to stick with the independent comics.

#45 Posted by Dark_Guyver (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

So anyone read Mr. Freeze in villains month? What did you think?

#46 Edited by lifeofvibe (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_guyver: I think he has powers now...he didn't use his freeze bazooka once so yeah

#47 Edited by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@lifeofvibe: Wait what? I haven't read it. Mr. Freeze has ice powers now, not just a freeze gun?

#48 Edited by Dark_Guyver (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

@dctv3363: Spoilers!!

yep, he touched a guys head with his bare hands and it turned to ice. Then he shattered it!

#49 Edited by Marionettegeist (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_guyver: Huh, I don't know how to feel about that. Was it a good comic? Maybe I'll pick it up.

#50 Posted by Dark_Guyver (2264 posts) - - Show Bio

@dctv3363: I liked it. If you're a fan of Mr. Freeze you should pick it up. It builds off of the Annual showing more of Victors childhood.

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