Not worthy to lift Mjolnir?

#1 Posted by Dex (559 posts) - - Show Bio

So I just had a quick question.  Mjolnir... those that are not worthy cannot lift it....is this because weight? Like Can Thor Place his hammer on a sleeping random person making that person unable to get up because the hammer?

#2 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio

because of an enchantment by odin. 

#3 Posted by DeathinFire (281 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but I wonder about OP's orignial question still.  Could he put in on someone while they're sleeping and they would be stuck?  I know the enchantment thing, I get that, but sitting up, grabbing the hammer, scooting sideways, is still moving the hammer, right?  Thus said person couldn't move could they?
#4 Posted by War Killer (19992 posts) - - Show Bio

I always wondered if like Thor randomly lost his powers and the hammer just fell into the middle of like a New York City street, couldn't you just like carve out the ground around it, not lifting the hammer itself but the earth around it and be able to move it? (does that even make sense?)

#5 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@War Killer said:
" I always wondered if like Thor randomly lost his powers and the hammer just fell into the middle of like a New York City street, couldn't you just like carve out the ground around it, not lifting the hammer itself but the earth around it and be able to move it? (does that even make sense?) "
Yes. 
#6 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @War Killer said:
" I always wondered if like Thor randomly lost his powers and the hammer just fell into the middle of like a New York City street, couldn't you just like carve out the ground around it, not lifting the hammer itself but the earth around it and be able to move it? (does that even make sense?) "
Yes.  "
Then by that logic, what Red Hulk did to Mjolnir should plausibly work, too, right?
#7 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 
Then by that logic, what Red Hulk did to Mjolnir should plausibly work, too, right? "
No. Completely different principles. 
#8 Edited by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:

" @NexusOfLight said: 

Then by that logic, what Red Hulk did to Mjolnir should plausibly work, too, right? "
No. Completely different principles.  "
How so? Based on that explanation Red Hulk gave (as silly as it was), he didn't technically lift Mjolnir. So if moving the earth Mjolnir is on works, then that should too.
#9 Edited by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 

How so? Based on that explanation Red Hulk gave (as silly as it was), he didn't technically lift Mjolnir. So if moving the earth Mjolnir is on works, then that should too.

Mjolnir can be moved/wielded by animated constructs or inanimate objects. It's conceivable that you can move the ground around Mjolnir and therefore lift Mjolnir up. 
 
There is gravity in space, therefore Rulk is a dumbass. 
#10 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
How so? Based on that explanation Red Hulk gave (as silly as it was), he didn't technically lift Mjolnir. So if moving the earth Mjolnir is on works, then that should too.
Mjolnir can be moved/wielded by animated constructs or inanimate objects.  There is gravity in space, therefore Rulk is a dumbass.  "
So if someone was driving a crane, and tried to lift Mjolnir with it, it would work?
#11 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 
So if someone was driving a crane, and tried to lift Mjolnir with it, it would work? "
If the crane is strong enough, yes. I dunno what good that would do. 
#12 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
So if someone was driving a crane, and tried to lift Mjolnir with it, it would work? "
If the crane is strong enough, yes. I dunno what good that would do.  "
I'm sorry, but that kinda makes no sense to me. Sorta goes against everything I know about the hammer. I've read Thor from the start of volume 2 (Jake Olson stuff) til' now, and haven't seen anything to to support this. In fact, the closest thing I can think of would be what Red Hulk did, and most would agree that was sorta silly. I'm not a Mjolnir expert or anything, and I will admit that if I have read over something that sorta goes along with that line of thinking, I've over looked it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense.
#13 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 
I'm sorry, but that kinda makes no sense to me. Sorta goes against everything I know about the hammer. I've read Thor from the start of volume 2 (Jake Olson stuff) til' now, and haven't seen anything to to support this. In fact, the closest thing I can think of would be what Red Hulk did, and most would agree that was sorta silly. I'm not a Mjolnir expert or anything, and I will admit that if I have read over something that sorta goes along with that line of thinking, I've over looked it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense. "
The Destroyer was able to wield the hammer before. It was plucked out of Thor's grasp by a mechanical arm as well. Mjolnir's enhancement applies to sentient beings only, which is why the first two happened and the Rulk moment is PIS. 
#14 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
I'm sorry, but that kinda makes no sense to me. Sorta goes against everything I know about the hammer. I've read Thor from the start of volume 2 (Jake Olson stuff) til' now, and haven't seen anything to to support this. In fact, the closest thing I can think of would be what Red Hulk did, and most would agree that was sorta silly. I'm not a Mjolnir expert or anything, and I will admit that if I have read over something that sorta goes along with that line of thinking, I've over looked it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense. "
The Destroyer was able to wield the hammer before. It was plucked out of Thor's grasp by a mechanical arm as well. Mjolnir's enhancement applies to sentient beings only, which is why the first two happened and the Rulk moment is PIS.  "
I always figured since the Destroyer was created by Odin, it was automatically enchanted, thus able to lift it whenever it wants, no matter who's in the driver's seat, it's doing what Odin created it to do. If the reason the Destroyer could lift the hammer was due to it being a machine, then wouldn't that mean any of Doom's Doombots could lift the hammer as well?
#15 Posted by Dex (559 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral:  So back to my original question... Guy laying flat on his back and hammer put on his chest... Can he get up?
#16 Posted by joshmightbe (24669 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dex: it would probably crush him rendering the question moot
Online
#17 Posted by Dex (559 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe: what if its juggs though...
#18 Posted by joshmightbe (24669 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dex: then he's stuck till thor comes back
Online
#19 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 
I always figured since the Destroyer was created by Odin, it was automatically enchanted, thus able to lift it whenever it wants, no matter who's in the driver's seat, it's doing what Odin created it to do. If the reason the Destroyer could lift the hammer was due to it being a machine, then wouldn't that mean any of Doom's Doombots could lift the hammer as well? "
I don't know if Doombots are strong enough to lift the hammer. It ought to be extremely heavy to begin with. Even if they could, they couldn't draw upon its power.  
 
@Dex said:
" @CosmicSpiral:  So back to my original question... Guy laying flat on his back and hammer put on his chest... Can he get up? "
No. 
#20 Posted by Jayso4201 (595 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm worthy give me that bitch!!! 
#21 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
I always figured since the Destroyer was created by Odin, it was automatically enchanted, thus able to lift it whenever it wants, no matter who's in the driver's seat, it's doing what Odin created it to do. If the reason the Destroyer could lift the hammer was due to it being a machine, then wouldn't that mean any of Doom's Doombots could lift the hammer as well? "
I don't know if Doombots are strong enough to lift the hammer. It ought to be extremely heavy to begin with. Even if they could, they couldn't draw upon its power. "
And how heavy could it possibly be? From my understanding, the hammer's weight has nothing to do with who can and can't lift it. It has nothing to do with who's strong enough to lift it either. It all boils down to Odin's magic. Jake Olson and Donald Blake certainly aren't strong enough to lift it, but since they're worthy, they can do so and become Thor as a result. If it were a matter of who's strong enough to lift it, then I'm sure a lot of other people could, Red Hulk included. Again, maybe you read something I didn't or overlooked, but where did you find that Mjolnir's magic doesn't work on non-sentient beings?
 
@joshmightbe
said:
" @Dex: then he's stuck till thor comes back "
Actually, I just saw a scan of the hammer being rendered useless against Juggernauts magical defenses.
#22 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 
And how heavy could it possibly be? From my understanding, the hammer's weight has nothing to do with who can and can't lift it. It has nothing to do with who's strong enough to lift it either. It all boils down to Odin's magic. Jake Olson and Donald Blake certainly aren't strong enough to lift it, but since they're worthy, they can do so and become Thor as a result. If it were a matter of who's strong enough to lift it, then I'm sure a lot of other people could, Red Hulk included. Again, maybe you read something I didn't or overlooked, but where did you find that Mjolnir's magic doesn't work on non-sentient beings?
If something attempts to lift the hammer which doesn't fall under the rules of the enchantment, then the only thing stopping them is the physical weight of the hammer. Uru itself is extremely difficult to fashion and weighs a considerable amount. 
 
A conclusion gathered from empirical evidence. 
#23 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
And how heavy could it possibly be? From my understanding, the hammer's weight has nothing to do with who can and can't lift it. It has nothing to do with who's strong enough to lift it either. It all boils down to Odin's magic. Jake Olson and Donald Blake certainly aren't strong enough to lift it, but since they're worthy, they can do so and become Thor as a result. If it were a matter of who's strong enough to lift it, then I'm sure a lot of other people could, Red Hulk included. Again, maybe you read something I didn't or overlooked, but where did you find that Mjolnir's magic doesn't work on non-sentient beings?
If something attempts to lift the hammer which doesn't fall under the rules of the enchantment, then the only thing stopping them is the physical weight of the hammer. Uru itself is extremely difficult to fashion and weighs a considerable amount.  A conclusion gathered from empirical evidence.  "
So where would Hulk fall under that? I seem to recall him actually getting mad enough to move the hammer, not lift, but budge it. I'm sure your reasoning is based on evidence, but what sources or instances in particular? Obviously the Destroyer being able to use it is one, but what else? 
#24 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@NexusOfLight said: 
So where would Hulk fall under that? I seem to recall him actually getting mad enough to move the hammer, not lift, but budge it. I'm sure your reasoning is based on evidence, but what sources or instances in particular? Obviously the Destroyer being able to use it is one, but what else?  "
I don't think Hulk falls under the category of worthiness. There seems to be several factors in play beyond having good intentions and a good heart.  
 
I named two, and there is at least one more I cannot recall at the moment. 
#25 Posted by The Mango (1477 posts) - - Show Bio

I  think it's pretty much immovable.
 
Usually wherever in the world the hammer falls, it stays there until Thor comes to get it. I'm sure if all you had to do was lift it with a robot or move the dirt around it, the US government would have it in some secret lab within hours.

#26 Posted by Mainline (1129 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dex said:
" So I just had a quick question.  Mjolnir... those that are not worthy cannot lift it....is this because weight? Like Can Thor Place his hammer on a sleeping random person making that person unable to get up because the hammer? "
It's magic, not science, so there's no reason for the rules to be so rigid or formal. 
 
Consider the fact that Mjolnir is being "lifted" through space by the surface of the planet, its rotation, gravitational field, etc.  If Mjolnir was purely and formally rooted in space as a strict matter of magic then it would be stuck in space as the whole planet, solar system, and galaxy spun and it would "fly" at incredible speed relative to our location in an instant.  But no, the enchantment is "intelligent" in that it keeps itself relative to the Earth in a way that is meaningful to sentient beings (because such positioning has no innate meaning in and of itself to an inanimate object)... one elegant way to execute this would be to use gravity and weight as you suggest (and as was suggested by the Red Hulk incident) because it provides a general rule which would accommodate many/most situations. 
 
To cover some of the exceptions to those situations- for example being wielded in space with reduced gravity or encountering anti-gravitational fields or gravity manipulating powered being (and note that making the hammer absolutely heavy- a black hole- isn't really a solution if, for example, the whole earth was vaporized and it sat there floating in space) you could make a more elaborate rule set for the enchantment particularly ones which take consciousness, will, and intent into account (which the hammer can do in its determination of worthiness) however it becomes fuzzy again with respect to what constitutes "wielding". 
 
It comes down to how sophisticated magic is with respect to Mjolnir.  If the hammer is "stupid" then perhaps one can be pinned that way (and if it works by enhancing its own gravity- whether actual or merely perceived- crushed that way) but if the hammer is sufficiently "smart" to identify and quantify what constitutes "wielding" then the person should be fine until such a time as they or someone else attempts to wield it. 
 
Bottom line, until someone writes it into a story and uses it as a technique (much in the way Captain Marvel's magic lightning became weaponized) this is an unlikely result and actually counter-intuitive if you give magical sophistication a fair shake.
#27 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
So where would Hulk fall under that? I seem to recall him actually getting mad enough to move the hammer, not lift, but budge it. I'm sure your reasoning is based on evidence, but what sources or instances in particular? Obviously the Destroyer being able to use it is one, but what else?  "
I don't think Hulk falls under the category of worthiness. There seems to be several factors in play beyond having good intentions and a good heart.   I named two, and there is at least one more I cannot recall at the moment.  "
Alright, thanks for explaining. Not sure if I'm quite ready to take your word for it yet, but you did get me thinking. Thanks for that, too. 
 
@Mainline: That sounds good. Well put.
#28 Posted by Dex (559 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral: so...Thor could pretty much beat anyone...Lay the hammer on their chest and then wait until they die.
#29 Edited by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dex said:

" @CosmicSpiral: so...Thor could pretty much beat anyone...Lay the hammer on their chest and then wait until they die. "

Thor would never do that, and the enchantment would kick in when he starts using it for ignoble purposes.   
 
@Mainline: Well explained. 
#30 Posted by Dex (559 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mainline: well spoken
#31 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

I read somewhere that robots/androids can lift Mjolnir because they aren't people. There ARE ways to lift it (like with cranes and such) but physically lifting it cannot happen unless you're worthy. What Rulk did was really PIS and would never happen. 

#32 Posted by NexusOfLight (1715 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dex said:
" @CosmicSpiral: so...Thor could pretty much beat anyone...Lay the hammer on their chest and then wait until they die. "
Y'know, if that were the case, then every time he throws it, someone who'd get hit would stay pinned, but that's never been the case. All it does is hit the target, and comes back. 
#33 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember seeing Thor using the worthiness enchantment to pin Hyperion to the ground. I'm trying to remember when it was, I believe it was at the beginning of Avengers vol 3.

#34 Posted by Dex (559 posts) - - Show Bio
@PrinceIMC: find that scan =)
#35 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
I'm sorry, but that kinda makes no sense to me. Sorta goes against everything I know about the hammer. I've read Thor from the start of volume 2 (Jake Olson stuff) til' now, and haven't seen anything to to support this. In fact, the closest thing I can think of would be what Red Hulk did, and most would agree that was sorta silly. I'm not a Mjolnir expert or anything, and I will admit that if I have read over something that sorta goes along with that line of thinking, I've over looked it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense. "
The Destroyer was able to wield the hammer before. It was plucked out of Thor's grasp by a mechanical arm as well. Mjolnir's enhancement applies to sentient beings only, which is why the first two happened and the Rulk moment is PIS.  "
No, it's not PIS. Rulk just isn't sentient. heh-heh-heh
#36 Posted by Decoy Elite (30041 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @CosmicSpiral said:
" @NexusOfLight said: 
I'm sorry, but that kinda makes no sense to me. Sorta goes against everything I know about the hammer. I've read Thor from the start of volume 2 (Jake Olson stuff) til' now, and haven't seen anything to to support this. In fact, the closest thing I can think of would be what Red Hulk did, and most would agree that was sorta silly. I'm not a Mjolnir expert or anything, and I will admit that if I have read over something that sorta goes along with that line of thinking, I've over looked it, but it just doesn't seem to make sense. "
The Destroyer was able to wield the hammer before. It was plucked out of Thor's grasp by a mechanical arm as well. Mjolnir's enhancement applies to sentient beings only, which is why the first two happened and the Rulk moment is PIS.  "
No, it's not PIS. Rulk just isn't sentient. heh-heh-heh "

#37 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: Thank you, thank you; I'm here all week :P

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