Why does everyone hate Matt Fraction?

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Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

I love him.

#1 Posted by War Killer (20337 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I've seen/read, most people only hate him for his work on Uncanny X-Men (which I agree, his writing on the book is pretty bad from what I've read). As for himself as a writer, I personally love his work on Invincible Iron Man.

#2 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

I love his X-Men. i can see some would be annoyed at his captions for the heroes.
#3 Posted by Mercy_ (92844 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld here are the questions I ask anybody who likes his run.

1. How.long have you been reading X-Men?
2. Who is your favorite character?
3. What exactly is it about his writing that you like?
Moderator
#4 Posted by Jotham (4564 posts) - - Show Bio

Casanova was okay, or started off okay, anyway.

#5 Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir (19714 posts) - - Show Bio

I like him too. Of course I haven't read his X-Men run.

The rest of his stuff is great, imesho.
Casanova, Iron man, Immortal Iron Fist, The Order, Five Fists of Science, his Punisher stuff and his work on Thor.
#6 Posted by Lance Uppercut (23245 posts) - - Show Bio
@Emperor Gonzo Noir: Casanova was fantastic. His X-Men run wasn't bad. It wasn't good either, but it wasn't bad. Admittedly, Second Coming was terrible, but that's because Hope can't hold her own book to save her life. 
#7 Posted by Emperor Gonzo Noir (19714 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lance Uppercut said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir: Casanova was fantastic. His X-Men run wasn't bad. It wasn't good either, but it wasn't bad. Admittedly, Second Coming was terrible, but that's because Hope can't hold her own book to save her life.  "
I personally haven't given a sh!t about the X-Men since Decimation.
#8 Posted by Lance Uppercut (23245 posts) - - Show Bio
@Emperor Gonzo Noir said:
" @Lance Uppercut said:
" @Emperor Gonzo Noir: Casanova was fantastic. His X-Men run wasn't bad. It wasn't good either, but it wasn't bad. Admittedly, Second Coming was terrible, but that's because Hope can't hold her own book to save her life.  "
I personally haven't given a sh!t about the X-Men since Decimation. "
I read it when Magneto is involved. 
#9 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:
Ive been reading Xmen for almost 20 years. My favorite honestly is any mutant. Fraction has a good grasp of character (except when he tried Boom Boom, no one says beyotches anymore)He has done wonders for Magneto and except for Utopia being too long and Second Coming feeling anti climatic I havent had much problem with his writing.
#10 Posted by PrinceIMC (5422 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope. I don't follow writers and artists as much as others seem to. I just read books about characters I like. With the X-Men I know it'll always change so if I don't particularly like a storyline I still stick with it knowing it will change eventually.
#11 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio

you are the same guys that hates on Kevin Smith for his out of continuity stories that change beloved characters personalities, mind you Smith's stories are Non-Canon so he is free to do this... yet you like Fraction whom has proven to utterly fail at understanding any character outside of Magneto, and his stories are canon. you are an odd cookie sir.

#12 Edited by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

@Caligula:

Fraction has a great grasp of characters. His Thor is a bit dull but other than that no huge wrist slitting complaints.

 

 

And for the love of God Batman does not piss his pants.

#13 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld said:
"

@Caligula:

Fraction has a great grasp of characters. His Thor is a bit dull but other than that no huge wrist slitting complaints.

 

 

And for the love of God Batman does not piss his pants.

"
he might in an alternate world or telling of the story. Trust me I'm a bigger Batman fan than you will ever be, and I don't have an issue with it because it's Smith's version of Batman, it's not the Canonical version of Batman. If it happened in canon I'd be pissed, but guess what? it didn't.

and if you really think Fraction knows what he is doing with the X-Men. you have obviously not read any of the classic X-Men stories. Fraction is a complete joke. Can he write well? yes. But he doesn't understand the characters he is writing that's his problem, he'd be far better creating his own characters and stories, or at least writing in a Non-Canon form.
#14 Posted by Mercy_ (92844 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld He doesn't have a good grasp of character at all. Quite the opposte.
Moderator
#15 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

Fraction knows what hes doing. Trust me Im a bigger X-Men fan than you will ever be.
#16 Posted by Larkin1388 (1760 posts) - - Show Bio

He ruined Thor

#17 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, in short, he sucks.

#18 Edited by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

Has he ripped anyones arm off or killed anyones kids for shock and awe. Has he copy and pasted shakespear and changed the names to mutant kids. has he revealed anyones parents to be unheard of demons? No. There are so many times our characters have been ****ed up and Fraction is nowhere near as bad as everyone seems to think so .

#19 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld said:
" Fraction knows what hes doing. Trust me Im a bigger X-Men fan than you will ever be. "
you may be, I'm not going to argue that. my point is that you cry about "out of continuity" actions by one writer that changes a characters demeanor. Yet you support doing this "in continuity" by Fraction.

Non Canon - you can take as many liberties with the character as you please, as it is not reflective of the Canon version of the character.

Canon- you should keep the character in question, in line with the preset persona of the character.


you aren't making sense.
#20 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio


i dont cry just bemoan. What liberties has Fraction taked that have ruined the X-Men so horribly that no one can fix it ever again ever ever?

 

 

Maybe he doesnt piss me off as much as it does you.

#21 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld said:
"


i dont cry just bemoan. What liberties has Fraction taked that have ruined the X-Men so horribly that no one can fix it ever again ever ever?

 

 

Maybe he doesnt piss me off as much as it does you.

"
it's not being able to fix it, it's the fact the he shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Fraction is the reason I dropped the book.
#22 Posted by Mumbles (846 posts) - - Show Bio

from what i've read of his work, he has been good. much better then most writer's out there. maybe in the top 5 comic writers now.

#23 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld said:
" Has he ripped anyones arm off or killed anyones kids for shock and awe. Has he copy and pasted shakespear and changed the names to mutant kids. has he revealed anyones parents to be unheard of demons?  No. There are so many times our characters have been fucked up and Fraction is nowhere near as bad as everyone seems to think so . "
Silence, Fraction sympathiser!
#24 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mumbles said:
" from what i've read of his work, he has been good. much better then most writer's out there. maybe in the top 5 comic writers now. "
Troll
#25 Posted by GreenParrot (102 posts) - - Show Bio

I've only read his Invincible Iron Man, which I think is really good.

#26 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio
@Caligula:
Im sorry. Hes not as bad as everyone says. You should read Keron Gillens latest issue. I dont read comics for writers just for charactrers.
#27 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld said:
" @Caligula: Im sorry. Hes not as bad as everyone says. You should read Keron Gillens latest issue. I dont read comics for writers just for charactrers. "
so you will read a completely awful comic and say it's good because your favorite character is in it?
fail logic is fail sir.

I didn't hate Fraction until I read some of his X-Men.
#28 Posted by crimsonspider89 (817 posts) - - Show Bio

Fraction does good solo comics. His team stuff sucks.


List of characters he can't write in UXM: Hope, Rogue, Gambit, X-23, Colossus, and a LOT MORE.

Trust me, he doesn't know his characters. Pick up Legacy, or K/Y's X-Force, or Reminder's UXF. Why I am dreading Fear Itself. Just wonder how many characters he will bastardize.

His solo stuff is awesome, team stuff sucks.
#29 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

@Caligula:

No. THere are X-Men comics such as the latest relaunch that are filled with my favorites but are absoutely horrid. And i read everything good or bad so i can make an informed decision. Im just saying Fraction isnt the antichrist and hasnt done anything that cant be undone. The X-MEn can move back to new york and everyone who has died will be back. I am upset that Cable and Nightcrawler have died so needlessy just to prove how important he thinks Hope should be. Austen was and always will be way worse.

#30 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio

@crimsonspider89:
I do think that too. Zeb Wells writing New Mutants is amazing and Kyle and Yost and Reminder nail X-Force. If its an X title i buy it. Except for the 2010 volume of xmen. That book is so cheap and really reminds you that Marvel doesnt care about its fans. Just like how you feel when Ke$ha comes on the radio.

 

 

 I didnt have a problem with most of his characters but he like most writers wont touch Gambit for some inane reasons. Gambit is a good character like all Marvel chatacters are except Daken, but im sure someone will someday make me change my mind on him. There are no bad characters just bad writers who make bad decisions. I just dont think Matt Fraction is as bad as some say. Maybe someday he will make me change my mind. Grant Morrison one of my favorite writers of all time butchered Magneto.

#31 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingoftheworld said:
"

@Caligula:

No. THere are X-Men comics such as the latest relaunch that are filled with my favorites but are absoutely horrid. And i read everything good or bad so i can make an informed decision. Im just saying Fraction isnt the antichrist and hasnt done anything that cant be undone. The X-MEn can move back to new york and everyone who has died will be back. I am upset that Cable and Nightcrawler have died so needlessy just to prove how important he thinks Hope should be. Austen was and always will be way worse.

"
I never claimed what he did could not be undone, I don't know where you have been getting this?

but you did say that he more than he isn't the "anti-christ" you said you like him.
You didn't say that he sucks but you tolerate him or such, you said you like his work. And Smith and Fraction do the same thing to characters the difference is Smith does it out of continuity, making it okay to put your own spin on how a character acts. Where as Fraction does not.

yet you condemn Smith and praise Fraction. your logic is flawed.
#32 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio
@Caligula:
I dont condemn anyone. Kevin Smith just should do his own creations. I enjoy most of his movies and if he had a creator owned comicbook it would probably be worth reading. I just havend tolerated any of his Marvel or DC writings.
#33 Posted by SC (13203 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does 'everyone' hate Matt Fraction? I know a lot that do, but not everyone, usually its because of below. 


  • Fraction is pro story and plot. He is aware of this, his editors are aware of this, his best critics and his best supporters are aware of this. He creates a strong plot, he has a story idea involving the X-Men, involving mutants, involving themes relating to race, prejudice, science, the themes of isolation, integration, survival, adaption, so on, so on. Then he uses the specific characters of the X-Men, to drive his story and plot idea. So a lot of people hate his characterization of the characters. When your pro story, your characterization doesn't suck automatically, just like if you are pro character driven stories, it doesn't mean you are immune to mischaracterization, but if the plot is your first priority and your plot is not a natural fit with the characters involved? Its easy to see what story aspect will end up suffering from inorganic story telling. A large amount of X-Men fans and readers, are fans and buy the book, not because its X-Men, but because they are fans of certain characters. For them, ideally the plot is as much there to be good on its own, as it is to serve as a platform, to tell strong character focused stories or support character strong writing. Characters that have suffered under Fraction because of plot over characterization, have been Emma Frost, Magneto, Xavier, Cyclops, Maddy, Thor, Storm, and more. Milage will vary here, as some people, some fans will think that to write Emma in character you just need to write her vapid and sex obsessed. If thats a persons understanding of the character then they won't get why so many Emma fans won't like his writing and that applies to a lot of characters. 
  • Fraction does not know his X-Men (Thor) history or continuity as much as many fans. Nor does he appear to know even the most recent important aspects of characters, plots, so on. This is like the above point, milage will vary. Maybe Thor telling his recently revealed to be brother who only just discovered this new family development, that the reason he revived his other dead brother who caused the death of so many people and their homes destruction and the physical appropriation of Sif's body. is because he needs his real brother... its a blood thing, you wouldn't understand, maybe for some people that makes sense. For others thats just so messed up and like the most offensive thing a brother could say to another brother. lol Of course thats probably less on Fraction and more on Marvel, maybe advertising? Maybe an editor wanting a certain status quo for Asgard. Anyway, I like Fraction as a person. He has even gone on the record that he could have handled Magneto and Xavier much more better when he reintroduced Magneto into the book circa #515. Its okay for other fans though, because Marvel doesn't pay Fraction to read old stories, they pay him to write new ones, and some people don't bother or care or notice things like characterization or continuity where to other fans, those things can be really important.  
  • Fraction is a writers writer. Thats why his work like Casanova is so good. With ongoing established titles, he can be hit or miss, generally dependent on how long you are a fan of the characters he is writing. Lots of people like his Iron Man, but the iron Man character also experienced a massive resurgence around the time of Civil War and the first movie. Look around at the Iron Man websites, or for threads where the average fanship of the fan is over 15 years and you end up with a large ratio of Iron Man fans who think Fraction's work sucks. Ditto Thor, but instead of 15 years, just decrease it to about 2, since JMS, and Gillen have totally been rocking that book, and dragged it into a top ten selling comic book. Under Fraction its slowly been dropping into the mid 20's. Iron Fist? Good. Lots of changes, but Iron Fist didn't have an ongoing for the longest period of time. The character was due a massive overhaul. How many I=old school iron Fist fans pissed? Not many, there weren't many to start with, and... even those with the knowledge would have been pretty grateful the character had risen in prominence and sales. Fans of Uncanny don't need to be grateful for those things, Uncanny has been slipping for ages. The strongest aspects of the story have been mediocre. 
  • Fractions dialogue tries to hard to be hip. Its repetitive as well. As you wish. As you wish. As you wish, As you wish, AS YOU WIIIIISSSSSSH! The Dread Pirate Roberts stabs his own head with two swords! Again, it doesn't really fit in with the characters. Not unless one doesn't care about depth. I'm 21, I'm young white and free! Or whatever his version of Cannonball said to a black bouncer? Is this the same character from the pages of New Mutants? Or is this a case of a writer using a character to make a witty reference, or character learning experience? Play up the character's naiveness? Poorly executed. 
  • All above points times 5. He has had a long run, and there are many examples of above criticisms, after a while, it becomes grating and not so hard to ignore or write of as a minor or trivial annoyance. i am always a little bit happy when I see someone who likes his Uncanny work. Since i know so many more that hate it. 
  • Oh, and lastly, when you mischaracterize characters poorly, you rob them of the positives, their inspirational qualities their originality and uniqueness. You deprive fans, of strong, smart, sardonic women, and nice, tactically sound leaders, and strong and ambitious, edgy leaders, and deep, complicated grey antagonists. The best you get is a good story. X-Fans expect a good story, with great characters. Thats why the book is called X-Men, and not like, X-Stories. lol
  • Oh, I forgot, cameo king, queen. Drawing fans in with Dazzler, Northstar, Cecelia and countless other characters, but putting them in the background, no one likes a tease! ^__^
Moderator
#34 Posted by katanalauncher (937 posts) - - Show Bio

His Ironman are some of the best stories I've read.

Can't say the same with X-men, and he did a decent job on Thor. 
#35 Posted by Mercy_ (92844 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" Why does 'everyone' hate Matt Fraction? I know a lot that do, but not everyone, usually its because of below. 

  • Fraction is pro story and plot. He is aware of this, his editors are aware of this, his best critics and his best supporters are aware of this. He creates a strong plot, he has a story idea involving the X-Men, involving mutants, involving themes relating to race, prejudice, science, the themes of isolation, integration, survival, adaption, so on, so on. Then he uses the specific characters of the X-Men, to drive his story and plot idea. So a lot of people hate his characterization of the characters. When your pro story, your characterization doesn't suck automatically, just like if you are pro character driven stories, it doesn't mean you are immune to mischaracterization, but if the plot is your first priority and your plot is not a natural fit with the characters involved? Its easy to see what story aspect will end up suffering from inorganic story telling. A large amount of X-Men fans and readers, are fans and buy the book, not because its X-Men, but because they are fans of certain characters. For them, ideally the plot is as much there to be good on its own, as it is to serve as a platform, to tell strong character focused stories or support character strong writing. Characters that have suffered under Fraction because of plot over characterization, have been Emma Frost, Magneto, Xavier, Cyclops, Maddy, Thor, Storm, and more. Milage will vary here, as some people, some fans will think that to write Emma in character you just need to write her vapid and sex obsessed. If thats a persons understanding of the character then they won't get why so many Emma fans won't like his writing and that applies to a lot of characters. 
  • Fraction does not know his X-Men (Thor) history or continuity as much as many fans. Nor does he appear to know even the most recent important aspects of characters, plots, so on. This is like the above point, milage will vary. Maybe Thor telling his recently revealed to be brother who only just discovered this new family development, that the reason he revived his other dead brother who caused the death of so many people and their homes destruction and the physical appropriation of Sif's body. is because he needs his real brother... its a blood thing, you wouldn't understand, maybe for some people that makes sense. For others thats just so messed up and like the most offensive thing a brother could say to another brother. lol Of course thats probably less on Fraction and more on Marvel, maybe advertising? Maybe an editor wanting a certain status quo for Asgard. Anyway, I like Fraction as a person. He has even gone on the record that he could have handled Magneto and Xavier much more better when he reintroduced Magneto into the book circa #515. Its okay for other fans though, because Marvel doesn't pay Fraction to read old stories, they pay him to write new ones, and some people don't bother or care or notice things like characterization or continuity where to other fans, those things can be really important.  
  • Fraction is a writers writer. Thats why his work like Casanova is so good. With ongoing established titles, he can be hit or miss, generally dependent on how long you are a fan of the characters he is writing. Lots of people like his Iron Man, but the iron Man character also experienced a massive resurgence around the time of Civil War and the first movie. Look around at the Iron Man websites, or for threads where the average fanship of the fan is over 15 years and you end up with a large ratio of Iron Man fans who think Fraction's work sucks. Ditto Thor, but instead of 15 years, just decrease it to about 2, since JMS, and Gillen have totally been rocking that book, and dragged it into a top ten selling comic book. Under Fraction its slowly been dropping into the mid 20's. Iron Fist? Good. Lots of changes, but Iron Fist didn't have an ongoing for the longest period of time. The character was due a massive overhaul. How many I=old school iron Fist fans pissed? Not many, there weren't many to start with, and... even those with the knowledge would have been pretty grateful the character had risen in prominence and sales. Fans of Uncanny don't need to be grateful for those things, Uncanny has been slipping for ages. The strongest aspects of the story have been mediocre. 
  • Fractions dialogue tries to hard to be hip. Its repetitive as well. As you wish. As you wish. As you wish, As you wish, AS YOU WIIIIISSSSSSH! The Dread Pirate Roberts stabs his own head with two swords! Again, it doesn't really fit in with the characters. Not unless one doesn't care about depth. I'm 21, I'm young white and free! Or whatever his version of Cannonball said to a black bouncer? Is this the same character from the pages of New Mutants? Or is this a case of a writer using a character to make a witty reference, or character learning experience? Play up the character's naiveness? Poorly executed. 
  • All above points times 5. He has had a long run, and there are many examples of above criticisms, after a while, it becomes grating and not so hard to ignore or write of as a minor or trivial annoyance. i am always a little bit happy when I see someone who likes his Uncanny work. Since i know so many more that hate it. 
  • Oh, and lastly, when you mischaracterize characters poorly, you rob them of the positives, their inspirational qualities their originality and uniqueness. You deprive fans, of strong, smart, sardonic women, and nice, tactically sound leaders, and strong and ambitious, edgy leaders, and deep, complicated grey antagonists. The best you get is a good story. X-Fans expect a good story, with great characters. Thats why the book is called X-Men, and not like, X-Stories. lol
  • Oh, I forgot, cameo king, queen. Drawing fans in with Dazzler, Northstar, Cecelia and countless other characters, but putting them in the background, no one likes a tease! ^__^
"
Simply...yes.
Moderator
#36 Posted by kingoftheworld (254 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:
Thank you SC for not simply raving about how horrible Fraction is and that he should be murdered by a homeless man with a bag of weasels. I can see your points except for the cameo thing. maybe i just missed that. I havent mentioned his Thor much because i havent read much Thor. I dont know his history but i do know X-Men. I havent had a problem with his stuff as much as some but i guess thats just me. Ive read worse X-Men stories and way worse superhero comics in general. ask James Robinson, JT Krul, Jeph Loeb, and Chuck Austen. Although I think that Krul wrote Cry for Justice and Robinson signed his name.
#37 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@Larkin1388 said:
" He ruined Thor "
QFT!

@John Valentine said:
" Well, in short, he sucks. "

lol
#38 Posted by Iridium (134 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't understand how anyone likes his 'writing', to be honest.  He has ruined Iron Man and Thor.  It seems he has no grasp of the characters past.
If I dig through past issues I can come up with numerous examples, but one that sticks in my grill is when Thor is talking to Balder about missing Loki, because he needs to talk to family.

Balder is his real brother.
Loki was adopted.
Balder is his family.  And yes, this is just one example, but like I said, I am not going to fill this space with tons of them.

Plus what he did to Iron Man ... Armor that comes out of his bones?!?  Really? He basically made a Colossus who flies and shoots lasers.  Ridiculous.  He is the kiss of death to a series. 

#39 Posted by Zaiyan (461 posts) - - Show Bio

He's one of the better writers, even though he has messed up I'd rather him do Thor than writers like Bendis

#40 Posted by Mercy_ (92844 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zaiyan said:

" He's one of the better writers,

He's a good writer when it doesn't involve continuity or characterization. 

even though he has messed up I'd rather him do Thor than writers like Bendis 

That's like choosing one less painful death over the other. You're still dead.    

@Iridium said:
" I can't understand how anyone likes his 'writing', to be honest.  He has ruined Iron Man and Thor.  It seems he has no grasp of the characters past.If I dig through past issues I can come up with numerous examples, but one that sticks in my grill is when Thor is talking to Balder about missing Loki, because he needs to talk to family.Balder is his real brother.Loki was adopted.Balder is his family.  And yes, this is just one example, but like I said, I am not going to fill this space with tons of them.Plus what he did to Iron Man ... Armor that comes out of his bones?!?  Really? He basically made a Colossus who flies and shoots lasers.  Ridiculous.  He is the kiss of death to a series.  "
He's good for series that don't have a lot of continuity, or need a reboot/revamp. I've been told his Iron Man and Iron Fist are fantastic. 
Moderator
#41 Posted by Son Of Storm (11297 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @Zaiyan said:

" He's one of the better writers,

He's a good writer when it doesn't involve continuity or characterization. 

even though he has messed up I'd rather him do Thor than writers like Bendis 

That's like choosing one less painful death over the other. You're still dead.    

@Iridium said:
" I can't understand how anyone likes his 'writing', to be honest.  He has ruined Iron Man and Thor.  It seems he has no grasp of the characters past.If I dig through past issues I can come up with numerous examples, but one that sticks in my grill is when Thor is talking to Balder about missing Loki, because he needs to talk to family.Balder is his real brother.Loki was adopted.Balder is his family.  And yes, this is just one example, but like I said, I am not going to fill this space with tons of them.Plus what he did to Iron Man ... Armor that comes out of his bones?!?  Really? He basically made a Colossus who flies and shoots lasers.  Ridiculous.  He is the kiss of death to a series.  "
He's good for series that don't have a lot of continuity, or need a reboot/revamp. I've been told his Iron Man and Iron Fist are fantastic. 
"
They are. I couldn't believe the same person wrote them.
#42 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son Of Storm said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @Zaiyan said:

" He's one of the better writers,

He's a good writer when it doesn't involve continuity or characterization. 

even though he has messed up I'd rather him do Thor than writers like Bendis 

That's like choosing one less painful death over the other. You're still dead.    

@Iridium said:
" I can't understand how anyone likes his 'writing', to be honest.  He has ruined Iron Man and Thor.  It seems he has no grasp of the characters past.If I dig through past issues I can come up with numerous examples, but one that sticks in my grill is when Thor is talking to Balder about missing Loki, because he needs to talk to family.Balder is his real brother.Loki was adopted.Balder is his family.  And yes, this is just one example, but like I said, I am not going to fill this space with tons of them.Plus what he did to Iron Man ... Armor that comes out of his bones?!?  Really? He basically made a Colossus who flies and shoots lasers.  Ridiculous.  He is the kiss of death to a series.  "
He's good for series that don't have a lot of continuity, or need a reboot/revamp. I've been told his Iron Man and Iron Fist are fantastic. 
"
They are. I couldn't believe the same person wrote them. "
His Iron Man is a lot weaker than his Iron Fist. It's superficially good until you look beneath the surface and consider things/ other good prior Iron Man runs. I'm sure the same would be said by someone with a lot more Iron Fist knowledge than I.
His Thor is absolutely rubbish!
#43 Posted by Mercy_ (92844 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son Of Storm: @John Valentine: I think SC pretty much hit the nail on the head pertaining to this. 


Fraction is a writers writer. Thats why his work like Casanova is so good. With ongoing established titles, he can be hit or miss, generally dependent on how long you are a fan of the characters he is writing. Lots of people like his Iron Man, but the iron Man character also experienced a massive resurgence around the time of Civil War and the first movie. Look around at the Iron Man websites, or for threads where the average fanship of the fan is over 15 years and you end up with a large ratio of Iron Man fans who think Fraction's work sucks. Ditto Thor, but instead of 15 years, just decrease it to about 2, since JMS, and Gillen have totally been rocking that book, and dragged it into a top ten selling comic book. Under Fraction its slowly been dropping into the mid 20's. Iron Fist? Good. Lots of changes, but Iron Fist didn't have an ongoing for the longest period of time. The character was due a massive overhaul. How many I=old school iron Fist fans pissed? Not many, there weren't many to start with, and... even those with the knowledge would have been pretty grateful the character had risen in prominence and sales. Fans of Uncanny don't need to be grateful for those things, Uncanny has been slipping for ages. The strongest aspects of the story have been mediocre. 


Moderator
#44 Posted by Son Of Storm (11297 posts) - - Show Bio
@John Valentine said:
" @Son Of Storm said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @Zaiyan said:

" He's one of the better writers,

He's a good writer when it doesn't involve continuity or characterization. 

even though he has messed up I'd rather him do Thor than writers like Bendis 

That's like choosing one less painful death over the other. You're still dead.    

@Iridium said:
" I can't understand how anyone likes his 'writing', to be honest.  He has ruined Iron Man and Thor.  It seems he has no grasp of the characters past.If I dig through past issues I can come up with numerous examples, but one that sticks in my grill is when Thor is talking to Balder about missing Loki, because he needs to talk to family.Balder is his real brother.Loki was adopted.Balder is his family.  And yes, this is just one example, but like I said, I am not going to fill this space with tons of them.Plus what he did to Iron Man ... Armor that comes out of his bones?!?  Really? He basically made a Colossus who flies and shoots lasers.  Ridiculous.  He is the kiss of death to a series.  "
He's good for series that don't have a lot of continuity, or need a reboot/revamp. I've been told his Iron Man and Iron Fist are fantastic. 
"
They are. I couldn't believe the same person wrote them. "
His Iron Man is a lot weaker than his Iron Fist. It's superficially good until you look beneath the surface and consider things/ other good prior Iron Man runs. I'm sure the same would be said by someone with a lot more Iron Fist knowledge than I.
His Thor is absolutely rubbish!
"
Not when you compare it to UXM.

Everyone I talk to says that. I've never been a reader of Thor. What's so bad about it?
#45 Edited by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son Of Storm:

JMS' Thor, and Gillen's, was just so much better (and that's only in recent history. My knowledge of Thor before JMS is patchy at best, I'm sure older Thor fans would have a lot more to raise issue about). It's like comparing the quality of Grant Morrison's X-Men to his or Chuck Austen's X-Men. For the former, you'd be willing to pay good money, for the latter, you'd likely try to steal and burn the comics before going to an STI clinic to get yourself checked out.
#46 Posted by Son Of Storm (11297 posts) - - Show Bio
@John Valentine said:
" @Son Of Storm:

JMS' Thor, and Gillen's, was just so much better (and that's only in recent history. My knowledge of Thor before JMS is patchy at best, I'm sure older Thor fans would have a lot more to raise issue about). It's like comparing the quality of Grant Morrison's X-Men to his or Chuck Austen's X-Men. For the former, you'd be willing to pay good money, for the latter, you'd likely try to steal and burn the comics before going to an STI clinic to get yourself checked out.
"
You could've just said that. I would have understood completely lol.
#47 Posted by Blurred View (363 posts) - - Show Bio

Nine issues about Tony Stark building a car is my reason.


Okay, I don't actually hate him.  Too strong a word. I don't even think he's a bad writer. He's just an overrated writer. He takes a plot and drags it out to two or three times the length it should be. He dwells too much on his own plot ideas and not enough on the characters involved. He'll go in these long, wandering story directions where you'll never see a substantial payoff. His stuff just tends to be kind of shallow and unsatisfying.
#48 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

The guy is a horrible writer.  His work on the second Punisher War Journal series was pretty god awful.  Frank who has fought Captain America before and yet for some reason all of a sudden develops a damn near homosexual fanatism over the fact that some guy is wearing a uniform like Captain America.  If that wasn't bad enough Frank for some ungodly reason because of his terribly retconned fondness of Captain America decides to make his own retarded looking Captain America suit.  Not to mention the guy he was fighting and his army was a redo of old enemies of Captain America.  I mean Jesus Christ fraction we know you like Captain America but most Punisher fans don't give a s*** about Captain America.  I could go on about Jigsaw all of a sudden developing a homosexual crush on Frank Castle and Lynn Michaels being completely ruined but I'm going to stop. 

#49 Posted by D3athstroke (3953 posts) - - Show Bio

because he's an idiot

#50 Posted by scuzz2.0 (273 posts) - - Show Bio

immortal iron fist was awesome, one of the best series i have ever read but how much of that was Brubaker?

his x-men was boring. i don't like it when writers change things too much, because it will inevitably revert back to what works so why bother. i hate utopia and cant wait for it to get back to normal.

His Thor run is a disaster. the Bor thing made me stop reading for a while. i can understand discrepancies with continuity when it has to do with elements that happened a long time ago, decades in some cases but JMS wrote the Bor story only a couple of years ago. he completely changed continuity for no reason and then doesn't even mention it. how does he explain Thor's exile? the move to Latveria? the fact that Balder was ever King? and even the siege would have played out different if Thor was king. and why did they change thors costume? the version from JMS's run was great, they shouldn't have changed it.

writers who ignore continuity, especially recent continuity, really piss me off!

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