Was Black Panther "armbar" on Silver Surfer.. really that bad

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#1 Posted by Glabal500 (922 posts) - - Show Bio

alot of comic book fans have said that is "the worst page of all comic book history:" and some of the stupidest sh*t ever...

but is it really that bad


Black Panther is a really skilled fighter.. one of the top fighters in the Marvel U.. and has good agility and speed... and was able to lock it behind Surfer...
Black Panther H2H is vastly superior to Surfer's and he caught Surfer off guard.. Surfer did not have his board by the way....... plus when it comes to physical strenght.. i don't see
the surfer that much stronger then BP.....

#2 Posted by The_Warlord (1831 posts) - - Show Bio

Can you post the page?

#3 Edited by Glabal500 (922 posts) - - Show Bio

ill try to find it

#4 Posted by Doom34 (15 posts) - - Show Bio
      
#5 Edited by weaponx (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, it really is that bad.....

#6 Posted by SC (14358 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends really. Potentially. Even the guy who wrote that scene said he didn't convincingly portray what he was going for that well, I think. (been a while since I read his comments on the issue) 


At face value its... pretty.... fork though eye to brain stuff... 
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#7 Posted by The_Warlord (1831 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, just wow...
Who wrote this?

#8 Posted by Doom34 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

The writer was Dwayne McDuffie.

#9 Posted by DH69 (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

thats just...

#10 Posted by jloneblackheart (5839 posts) - - Show Bio

Although BP is indeed a much better fighter, that isn't even any kind of hold. I've learned lots of things from multiple styles, and that isn't happening. No choke is going on and you aren't going to just hold someones arm behind their back, especially if that someone has a massive strength advantage over you.

You couldn't hold a drunk with that crap.

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#11 Edited by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio

It was just bad. There is no justifying it.


@Glabal500 said:

" alot of comic book fans have said that is "the worst page of all comic book history:" and some of the stupidest sh*t ever...

but is it really that bad


Black Panther is a really skilled fighter.. one of the top fighters in the Marvel U.. and has good agility and speed... and was able to lock it behind Surfer...
Black Panther H2H is vastly superior to Surfer's and he caught Surfer off guard.. Surfer did not have his board by the way....... plus when it comes to physical strenght.. i don't see
the surfer that much stronger then BP.....
"

.... did you really just say Surfer isn't that much stronger than BP? Really?

Also, what does his board have to do with anything? This isn't Rise of the Silver Surfer, bud. He doesn't lose his powers without the board, and he can make a new board at will.
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#12 Posted by Full_Spectrum (1553 posts) - - Show Bio

let's see, surfer can destroy entire planets with his bare hands. Black panther ate a radioactive herb. hmm....

#13 Posted by kadeem (3120 posts) - - Show Bio
@Full_Spectrum said:
" let's see, surfer can destroy entire planets with his bare hands. Black panther ate a radioactive herb. hmm.... "
LOL.  BP is my favorite character, but this is nonsense. If we are asking who has better martial arts skills it's T'Challa without question, but SS is a man who can physically overpower most gods.
#14 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem:

Martial arts are good on most people. But they really won't mean anything against people like the Surfer, who once took a full punch from She-Hulk and thought it was an accident. He's also stopped Hulk's fists.
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#15 Edited by katanalauncher (963 posts) - - Show Bio

No disrespect for late Dwayne McDuffie, but it did suck ass.

#16 Posted by joshmightbe (25858 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer is vastly stronger, faster and more powerful than Panther ever has or will be him stopping surfer with an arm bar was a pathetic display of P.I.S. by a lazy writer

#17 Posted by Glabal500 (922 posts) - - Show Bio

well the hold might be crap... but black panther could beat Surfer H2H only...

#18 Posted by Theworldbreaker (1678 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously Black Panther/s streangth is like an ant compared to Surfer's, the dude is stronger then a calm savage hulk, Black Panther is only like near cap's level and he can just bench 1,000 pounds.
#19 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@Glabal500 said:
" well the hold might be crap... but black panther could beat Surfer H2H only... "
If Surfer was 100% depowered, yes. No other way.
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#20 Posted by kadeem (3120 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @kadeem: Martial arts are good on most people. But they really won't mean anything against people like the Surfer, who once took a full punch from She-Hulk and thought it was an accident. He's also stopped Hulk's fists. "
That was the point I was trying to make.
#21 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@kadeem said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @kadeem: Martial arts are good on most people. But they really won't mean anything against people like the Surfer, who once took a full punch from She-Hulk and thought it was an accident. He's also stopped Hulk's fists. "
That was the point I was trying to make. "
I know. I was adding to what you said.
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#22 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23390 posts) - - Show Bio

This is just frighteningly sad O_O

SS only being slightly stronger than Black Panther?

This is probably the worst example of PIS outside of BTVS's last episode. Certainly the worst in a comic.

#23 Posted by joshmightbe (25858 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt: By this logic Doomsday is only slightly stronger than Spiderman(yes I'm being sarcastic)
#24 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt: By this logic Doomsday is only slightly stronger than Spiderman(yes I'm being sarcastic) "
Superman is only slightly stronger than Batman. Batman is a master martial artist, you know, so he's equal to Superman.
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#25 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23390 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe: @JediXMan: Hawkeye could take down Thor. I mean, Clint is much better with most weapons that Thor is.
#26 Posted by kadeem (3120 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @kadeem said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @kadeem: Martial arts are good on most people. But they really won't mean anything against people like the Surfer, who once took a full punch from She-Hulk and thought it was an accident. He's also stopped Hulk's fists. "
That was the point I was trying to make. "
I know. I was adding to what you said. "
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood.
#27 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that Black Panther was able to do that to an uber powerful Surfer is the smaller problem.

The big issue is the fact that the move is not an armbar but an arm lock. Armbar is trying to hyperextend the elbow or shoulder joint... Ehehehehe!

#28 Posted by Doom34 (15 posts) - - Show Bio
@ssejllenrad: lol, agreed
#29 Posted by Glabal500 (922 posts) - - Show Bio

what.... are you guys trying to say surfer has vastly superior strength then BP

#30 Posted by joshmightbe (25858 posts) - - Show Bio
@ssejllenrad: Either way it shouldn't have worked, in fact given Surfer's speed he shouldn't have even been able to get that close to him
#31 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23390 posts) - - Show Bio
@Glabal500 said:
" what.... are you guys trying to say surfer has vastly superior strength then BP "
Yep.
#32 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio
@joshmightbe said:
" @ssejllenrad: Either way it shouldn't have worked, in fact given Surfer's speed he shouldn't have even been able to get that close to him "
Yep! You can't do an armbar on space! There's just too many ways to escape it if the grappler does not have a floor to utilize! Nyehehehehehe!
#33 Posted by joshmightbe (25858 posts) - - Show Bio
@Glabal500: Surfer is one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel universe
#34 Posted by joshmightbe (25858 posts) - - Show Bio

anyone who can do this to hulk could crush Panther and this was before the Surfer's insane power upgrade
#35 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@Glabal500 said:
" what.... are you guys trying to say surfer has vastly superior strength then BP "
.... yes. Yes we are.
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#36 Posted by Static Shock (48033 posts) - - Show Bio
@Glabal500 said:
" what.... are you guys trying to say surfer has vastly superior strength then BP "
T'Challa says that the Surfer's strength is vastly superior in the scan posted on the other page. 
#37 Edited by Static Shock (48033 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys, the armlock wasn't exactly PIS. First, let me post the scan after that.


 Read what the Surfer says.

 Also, this is what McDuffie said about the instance.

"Read the scene again and this time pay attention. The Surfer allowed the Panther to "restrain" him in the hope of finding out what the FF was up to. A panel later, the Surfer's assistant blasts the Panther unconscious. The Surfer is irritated because he wanted the Panther to talk, which he thought he might do if the Panther believed he had the upper hand. Most of the people who bitch about this have only seen a scan of one page, or have poor reading comprehension skills."

So, basically, the Surfer let T'Challa do it and made him think that he had him restrained. T'Challa didn't actually have Surfer restrained there.

You can follow the link for verification. 

Ask the Maestro
#38 Posted by Nefarious (25904 posts) - - Show Bio

PIS.

#39 Posted by Wattup (682 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought it was Reggie Hudlin, not Dwayne Macduffie.

And yes. It is that bad. Like my 150 pound self getting the Juggernaut in a nipple hold.

#40 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock:

I honestly never saw that scan before or heard the writer's commentary.
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#41 Posted by Zaiyan (475 posts) - - Show Bio

IT WAS BAD
Dwayne has sometimes made me feel uncomfortable

and I normally love or loved Dwayne McDuffie's work (RIP). Dwayne done great things for the comic industry, he worked in a media that was mostly white male dominated. Dwayne came after the first big black revolution, fights for equal rights, MLK but that does not mean everything was perfect, there was still a lot of work to do in the years Dwayne lived and wrote. As a minority you didn't really have equal opportunity in sport, media, business and entertainment. DC comics needed to follow through with that revolution which was going on in the film, music, business etc. Marvel had kinda got ahead by putting token black guys in their comics, Stan and Kirby were open minded to explore other ethnic groups and Marvel began filling team roosters with minorities. I mean only look at the JLA to see how ethnically unbalanced it was. Dwayne did some great things for DC in this area and having characters like Vixen and Green Lantern Stewart on the cartoon show added a more modern quality to DC comics.

What makes me uncomfortable is some of the time, online, in interviews etc Dwayne would come across as a guy who was still bashing his head against a wall even though most of the wall had been knocked a long time ago. You know these loud political people who give a modern German person grief because of something that happened 70 years ago, even though the modern German people have nothing to do with fascism or WW2...Dwayne would some times come across as a guy who was stuck in the past. I have mixed heritage, have white in my family but don't consider myself 'white'. What really bugged me is how Dwayne reacted to negative fan commentary. He said in online interviews the reason people got so upset was because it was a white guy getting beat by a black guy.
Not a herald of Galactus losing to T'Challa but Dwyane's excuse was to drop an F-Bomb and say fans only got annoyed cos of the race card
I was really disappointed in this remark and Dwayne's rant against comic fans once again made me feel uncomfortable
I never really saw Surfer as a 'white' either just a bald headed alien who looks silver, I didn't log on after reading the comic to trash Dawyne, I didn't post my dissapointment on his site....but its something I could have done because Dwayne chose to ignore power levels, Surfer should never be taken by a street leveler, Thor should never be beat by Taskmaster, Luke Cage should never be beat by a Hydra agent and Darksied should never lose to a flight of stairs...which ever writers produce nonsense like this deserve an online trashing. Dwayne just couldn't write or understand Surfer's power levels, Silver Surfer has skin durable enough to survive an enraged She-Hulk punching him straight to the face, Surfer depowered was still powerful enough to almost kill World War Hulk and all his Warbound (these battle arena friends were all as strong as classical Hulk)
 


 "Give him another pass, and we are dead".
 
 
 
I would hate to think any of my white comic book friends who didn't like this comic were RACIST like Dwayne implied....I would like to think they didn't like it because Dwayne produced BAD WRITING
There are times I felt Dwayne was stuck in the past,
I remember seeing ranting reviews months later saying how Dwayne was trying too hard to make the black folk look super cool, I mean in the same comic you had Storm breathe in space and take out an invulnerable herald Stardust with a lightning bolt...terrible writing.
but then again

months later we see Marvel fans go nuts over Thor
a black dude cast in a fictional/scifi movie involving Norse Gods...its science fiction an only losely based on the European myth so there's no reason Kenneth can't cast a black dude in this movie...yet fans went crazy online, i mean really crazy about the casting

so even though he screwed up on this particular comic maybe Dwayne had a point about this white vs black stuff after all
#42 Edited by Static Shock (48033 posts) - - Show Bio
@Zaiyan: I'm guessing the tech used to depower the Surfer here wasn't as effective as the tech used to depower the Surfer in Fantastic Four. The latter completely depowered him, while former, whatever was used in Planet Hulk didn't do the same (considering the fact that he still retained his superhuman abilities afterwardt). After all, what T'Challa used against him was based on the same tech that Dr. Doom used to depower the Surfer long before that. In any case, both instances took place before Planet Hulk, anyway. I wouldn't considered any of it bad writing, at all.

In the second scan you posted, Silver Surfer states that the disc used against him prevented him from using the Power Cosmic. What T'Challa used completely robbed Surfer of the Power Cosmic, altogether. That should clear up any misconception.


@Zaiyan said:

" I mean in the same comic you had Storm breathe in space and take out an invulnerable herald Stardust with a lightning bolt...

Storm and the rest of the Fantastic Four had devices on their forearms that provide oxygen for them to breathe out there. At the same time, Storm has been striking lightning in space and doing loads of other crazy things out there for decades. The fact that McDuffie wrote this isn't brand new. It's a part of Storm's character. 

As far as Stardust goes, she reformed her body on the next page. Big deal.










#43 Posted by Static Shock (48033 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @Static Shock: I honestly never saw that scan before or heard the writer's commentary. "
I just wanted to squash a common misconception. That's all. 
#44 Posted by jloneblackheart (5839 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock Well, I've read the comic and I guess I have poor reading comprehension. I think McDuffie is assuming we knew what he was thinking when he wrote it. No where in those scans, or the following pages, is it implied he was allowing it to happen. It's only implied he was willing to listen, which earlier in the issue he was not.

As for the "Surfer's assistant," that blast would have killed BP. Stardust is not known to hold back.

I've heard this before though, I've just never seen the actual quote. I think he assumes too much or thinks very highly of his writing. Not a very calm and collected response, sounds like he wanted to insult readers because he himself was insulted.

On that note, I say he should feel that way. In my opinion, this was one of the worst FF arcs ever.
Moderator
#45 Posted by Static Shock (48033 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart: I get that McDuffie is an @$$hole about stuff (I blogged about that here), but I don't think he intended for Black Panther to actually show out on the Surfer like that. Instead of calling PIS, I'd rather take what McDuffie says on it.
#46 Posted by jloneblackheart (5839 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock I'll take his word for it too, it's the only way it makes sense.

I will say, I did enjoy his portrayal of Sue, especially her confrontation with the Wizard, but there was a lot of other stuff I had problems with.
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#47 Posted by Static Shock (48033 posts) - - Show Bio
@jloneblackheart: McDuffie is okay when writing his own characters. But, with other characters, he falls short.
#48 Posted by Hoboseid (1043 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
@kadeem: Martial arts are good on most people. But they really won't mean anything against people like the Surfer, who once took a full punch from She-Hulk and thought it was an accident. He's also stopped Hulk's fists.
I actually like Static Shock's explanation, there are ways Surfer might be taken out I mean Doom has done it so why not BP if he has Doom tech. That said I not a fan of the way this comic is wrote, it assumes too much and the story was executed poorly
 
I can see how anti-McDuffie groups were able to take the scan and made it look like McDuffie wanted to make Surfer a jobber but if you read the arc I think McDuffie had good intentions, its just the way the comic was done that causes problems.
#49 Posted by JediXMan (32048 posts) - - Show Bio
@Hoboseid said:
@JediXMan said:
@kadeem: Martial arts are good on most people. But they really won't mean anything against people like the Surfer, who once took a full punch from She-Hulk and thought it was an accident. He's also stopped Hulk's fists.
I actually like Static Shock's explanation, there are ways Surfer might be taken out I mean Doom has done it so why not BP if he has Doom tech. That said I not a fan of the way this comic is wrote, it assumes too much and the story was executed poorly  I can see how anti-McDuffie groups were able to take the scan and made it look like McDuffie wanted to make Surfer a jobber but if you read the arc I think McDuffie had good intentions, its just the way the comic was done that causes problems.
With tech, fine; not the way it appeared to have happened. But considering the scan was twisted to mean something it didn't, and in fact Surfer just acted the entire time, then I'm fine.
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#50 Posted by Glabal500 (922 posts) - - Show Bio

so is it bad or not?

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