Between Steve Rogers and Nick Fury, who is the soldier and who is the captain?

Surely. Steve as Captain America has the word Captain in his name, so he should be one? Not necessarily. Captain America is also known as the Super Soldier, so having both titles doesn't shift the argument either way. When he first wanted to join the army, Steve was but a frail boy. He wanted to be a soldier and thus enlisted in the program. He has stated a few times that he never wanted to be a leader or a symbol, only serve his country as a soldier.

On the other hand, Nick Fury has the titles - Sergeant, Commander, and Director. All of them are synonymous with Captain. During World War II, it was he was who came with the plans, and Captain America, just like the Howling Commandos was one of the soldiers that followed under him. The only difference was that although Cap was one of the soldiers, he was also an inspiration for them.   

However, lately the writers seem to be mixing this up. Both in Captain America #1 (above) and Secret Warriors #28 (below) released this month, Steve is featured as the Captain and Fury as the soldier.

Could it be that the writers and Marvel are trying to change their roles? Why is Steve called Captain America anyways, if he isn't really one?!

I think they're pretty much equal and I think they see each other that way. 

I think they're pretty much equal and I think they see each other that way. 

I'm confused at what you are trying to say here? 
 
@stuamerica said:

@Gambit1024 said:

I think they're pretty much equal and I think they see each other that way. 

This.  It also depends on the situation.  In WWII, Fury had much more experience and thus tended to fall into the leadership role.  Nowadays, they are pretty much equals with Cap holding the edge of being a symbol as well as an expert tactician.   He is called Captain because it sounds better than Lt. America (which I believe was his official rank in the army, though I could be mistaken).

I am not sure what to think. On the 1 hand I dont take "Captain" in Captain America literally. But after reading this, I am more inclined to question the naming of the character.

I think Super Soldier would have been more appropriate. But then there is also nothing wrong with Captain America. It is a really cool name. I guess I never took it serious. But it way better than Super American.

Maybe this will explain it a bit more.

In 1940, writer Joe Simon conceived the idea for Captain America and made a sketch of the character in costume ."I wrote the name 'Super American' at the bottom of the page," Simon said in his autobiography. "No, it didn't work. There were too many 'Supers' around. 'Captain America' had a good sound to it. There weren't a lot of captains in comics. It was as easy as that. The boy companion was simply named Bucky, after my friend Bucky Pierson, a star on our high school basketball team.

Wiki Link

I just looked at the Cap page here, and apparently he was a private, so the title is purely for spectacle. (Can't figure out how to put links in, sorry.) And for clarification, in WWII Fury was more the leader, but nowadays it tends to be Cap. (though they generally view each as equals and tends to be depend more on the situation as to who has the pecking order in the command structure)

Cap also has the charisma of a true leader.  He is seen as the supreme field commander by virtually every super-hero from the Avengers to the X-Men to the Justice League, and by the American military.  Cap has even countermanded direct Presidential orders.  Fury has a great deal of leadership ability and experience, but Cap has clearly exceeded him.

@SleepyDrug said:

Cap also has the charisma of a true leader.  He is seen as the supreme field commander by virtually every super-hero from the Avengers to the X-Men to the Justice League, and by the American military.  Cap has even countermanded direct Presidential orders.  Fury has a great deal of leadership ability and experience, but Cap has clearly exceeded him.

Agreed! 

It occured in Avengers #63 (part 3 of the Standoff storyline).  A US Army division is given direct Presidential orders to bring down Thor & Iron Man to stop their fighting.  Cap countermands the order, and the entire division drops into parade rest and salutes. 
 
Cap and Fury are both top rate leaders.  Fury probably knows more about politics, espionage, small unit tactics, and covert operations.  Cap is a better at small unit tactics for superpowered fighters.  Fury's leadership skills are better for running an organization.  Cap's leadership skills are more inspirational and geared towards a small group.  I disagree that Cap is something of a co-leader with Iron Man.  Iron Man has ebbed and flowed in his authority with the Avengers; Waps has lead the team as much as Iron Man.  But when the chips are down, Cap is the leader.  If you look at full assemblies of the Avengers - the Morgan Conquest, Operation Galactic Storm, Secret Wars, Infinity Gauntlet, JLA/Avengers - it is always Cap who is given command. 
 
Cap's WWII military rank is really besides the point.  Cap received special, intensive training.  He operated mainly on his own or with units called in for specific missions.  Cap did not have the training or assignments of a typical lieutenant.  Fury's military role was a bit more traditional, and then he served as a spy for decades.   
 
Fury is used to having his orders followed because he has authority. Cap's orders are followed because HE gave them.  Cap would be, and has been shown to be, a leader in virtually every situation he is in.  Fury is a leader as much because of his rank as his ability.  Fury is the soldier in this pair - he is defined by his unit as much as himself.  Cap is the one everyone follows; he has grown past being just a soldier.
 

Nick Fury is the Captain, Captain America is the soldier.

What an artificial debate. Marvel is not trying to shift their respective roles by calling one Captain and one Soldier.

They're both soldiers: Steve is the Captain and Nick should be called either Colonel (his most recent army rank) or Sarge/Sergeant (his rank when Cap first knew him).

@MrUnknown said:

@PowerHerc: Would you rather we debate about which side of the spoon is shinier? :>

Sure. That one would be pretty good. :)

                    @SleepyDrug:  
Secret Warriors proves otherwise. As Cap was just another piece on the Fury's chess board, hell, even his "opponent" was in his pocket the whole time. And Cap acknowledges that It was Fury who kept the world safe from the shadows a lot more than he ever did in the field and I actually agree. And I'm not a fan boy of either character. Fury's always made the tough, unsavory decisions that Cap never can bring himself to. That's why he's more effective as "Top Cop"  then Steve will ever be. Cap's great at leading field teams, but he's not a big picture thinker or planner. He's a soldier and always has been, sure he's charismatic and can inspire men to follow, but he's no general.  
 
@MrUnknown:  Word, man. Nail on the head. Any one who question's who's in charge should read Secret Warriors. I love how when Cap tells him he can't/won't allow Nick to do what he did again he just looks at him like "Sure kid, whatever". 

                   

               

I think that you have misunderstood the scan at the bottom. Steve calls Fury a soldier, as a statement that they are both the same (they are both soldiers who fought in the war) and he calls him back Captain as his actual name. I do not understand the problem with the scan above, they seem to fit what you are trying to explain quite well.

@JonesDeini: Do you mean that 1959 Avengers thing? It didn't have anything to do with the real Avengers (which was good thankfully) and it was mostly pointless. I agree with all your points about Nick Fury, of course!

                    @SleepyDrug:  See I disagree I find Fury to be the better field leader as well. He lead those men into battle after battle during WWII, not Steve. He recruited those men and women (Steve included) to serve in S.H.I.E.L.D., He recruited one 3rd of the Great Wheel to his cause. Fury rally's men to his cause just as Steve does and has done so more often. Steve's lead the Avengers and a few other costumed outfits. Conversely Nick's lead the Howling Commandos, various other military units, S.H.I.E.L.D./Secret Warriors into missions. Fury can not only see in the 4th dimension, so to speak, but he acts effectively in the 3rd. As Steve said to him at the end of Secret Warriors, Nick Fury was the one man who could win a war with his will.    I don't read Bendis' Avengers, but didn' Nick engineer the gathering of the Avengers?

                   

               

@JonesDeini said:

                    @SleepyDrug:  See I disagree I find Fury to be the better field leader as well. He lead those men into battle after battle during WWII, not Steve. He recruited those men and women (Steve included) to serve in S.H.I.E.L.D., He recruited one 3rd of the Great Wheel to his cause. Fury rally's men to his cause just as Steve does and has done so more often. Steve's lead the Avengers and a few other costumed outfits. Conversely Nick's lead the Howling Commandos, various other military units, S.H.I.E.L.D./Secret Warriors into missions. Fury can not only see in the 4th dimension, so to speak, but he acts effectively in the 3rd. As Steve said to him at the end of Secret Warriors, Nick Fury was the one man who could win a war with his will.    I don't read Bendis' Avengers, but didn' Nick engineer the gathering of the Avengers?

                   

               

I would agree that Fury was a better field leader during WWII.  I'm not sure that he really recruited Cap to anything.  Captain America joined SHIELD after being revived by the Avengers -- When Nick Fury was one of the few living people he knew.  Cap outgrew SHIELD; and Fury had no argument that was able to keep Steve with the organization.  I'm not sure what you are refering to as 1/3 of the Great Wheel or what vague other military units he lead.  To my knowledge, he led the Howling Commandos and SHIELD.  Despite Cap's words to Fury, I've never seen Fury portrayed as the Supreme General.  Fury is good, even great, but not the unquestioned best from issues I've read.  Marvel has done a better job of showing how good Fury is in recent years.  Fury is probably better as a field leader with regular military or SHIELD units -- trained soldiers -- under his command.  I don't think Fury would be effective with a unit as unique as the Avengers.  I actually think the Avengers would mutiny in response to Fury's hardline style of command.  Cap is far better at commanding small units with a wide range of powers and skills....and strongly alpha-type personalities. 

                    @SleepyDrug: Most of the Wheel is dead. And about Fury not leading any supers, he did lead Secret Warriors whom were a bunch of unknown kids before Fury found them. Not only did he lead, but also trained them and they actually grew as characters by the series' end. Even SHIELD has had quite a few superheroes in their ranks such as Spider-woman.

                   

               

@MrUnknown said:

                    @SleepyDrug: Most of the Wheel is dead. And about Fury not leading any supers, he did lead Secret Warriors whom were a bunch of unknown kids before Fury found them. Not only did he lead, but also trained them and they actually grew as characters by the series' end. Even SHIELD has had quite a few superheroes in their ranks such as Spider-woman.

                   

               

True.  Fury has led supers.  I never said he didn't; I said Cap has done it better.  Look at the resume: Secret Warriors, Avengers 1959, and even the Great Wheel are all newly introduced aspects of Fury's abilities.  They are a real change in Fury.  For the bulk of his career, he has not been very successful in leading supers.  SHIELD's past Super-Agent programs have had very mixed records in the past.  In fact, the two major super agent programs were infiltrated by criminal organizations (the Corporation and Hydra) and ended badly.  Granted, Fury has recruited some top tier talent for SHIELD.  But those have not lasted and most of those heroes made their biggest impacts away from SHIELD.  Captain America, Quasar, Black Widow, and Spider-Woman have been most effective solo or as Avengers.  Shadowcat did one mission, but she is really an X-Man.  Few super-agents have done much in the way of note-worthy missions while working for SHIELD.  This record does not compare with Cap's.  Captain America's record at leading super-teams is far superior.  He is the definitive leader of the Avengers.  Cap has led most note-worthy heroic gatherings, including the Secret Wars heroes on Battleworld, Operation: Galactic Storm, and the JLA-Avengers team-up.  He is widely recognized as the best field leader/tactician for supers.  I take Fury's record lightly.  I just can't accept that Fury is better than Cap at every aspect of leadership.  There are some things Cap is better at.

                    @SleepyDrug said:

@MrUnknown said:

                    @SleepyDrug: Most of the Wheel is dead. And about Fury not leading any supers, he did lead Secret Warriors whom were a bunch of unknown kids before Fury found them. Not only did he lead, but also trained them and they actually grew as characters by the series' end. Even SHIELD has had quite a few superheroes in their ranks such as Spider-woman.

                   

               

True.  Fury has led supers.  I never said he didn't; I said Cap has done it better.  Look at the resume: Secret Warriors, Avengers 1959, and even the Great Wheel are all newly introduced aspects of Fury's abilities.  They are a real change in Fury.  For the bulk of his career, he has not been very successful in leading supers.  SHIELD's past Super-Agent programs have had very mixed records in the past.  In fact, the two major super agent programs were infiltrated by criminal organizations (the Corporation and Hydra) and ended badly.  Granted, Fury has recruited some top tier talent for SHIELD.  But those have not lasted and most of those heroes made their biggest impacts away from SHIELD.  Captain America, Quasar, Black Widow, and Spider-Woman have been most effective solo or as Avengers.  Shadowcat did one mission, but she is really an X-Man.  Few super-agents have done much in the way of note-worthy missions while working for SHIELD.  This record does not compare with Cap's.  Captain America's record at leading super-teams is far superior.  He is the definitive leader of the Avengers.  Cap has led most note-worthy heroic gatherings, including the Secret Wars heroes on Battleworld, Operation: Galactic Storm, and the JLA-Avengers team-up.  He is widely recognized as the best field leader/tactician for supers.  I take Fury's record lightly.  I just can't accept that Fury is better than Cap at every aspect of leadership.  There are some things Cap is better at.

                   

               

You make an excellent point their. When if comes to directly leading supers Cap is the better man. In Secret Warriors (his most successful example) he leads a few missions directly, but on the whole he chooses field leaders for each squad and they interact with them on a day to day basis. He ultimately calls the shots, but he allows his QB's to run audibles if need be. I suggest checking out Secret Warriors, it will increase the respect you already have for the character and it also really humanizes Fury as well. And Cap plays a part in it and his scenes with Fury adds a wonderful aspect to their relationship. Hickman writes both perfectly and they play off one another superbly. And most of the great wheel is dead, by the hands or plans of Fury no less lol

                   

               

It occured in Avengers #63 (part 3 of the Standoff storyline).  A US Army division is given direct Presidential orders to bring down Thor & Iron Man to stop their fighting.  Cap countermands the order, and the entire division drops into parade rest and salutes. 
 
What a crappy Captain. You can't saulte while in parade rest.

During WW2, Captain America: Steve Rogers was an Army Corporal. This is a leadership/ junior non-commissioned officer rank that currently shares its pay grade with the Army Specialist; both ranks are pay grade E-4 or Enlisted - Level 4. Nick Fury was a Sergeant of undetermined position, but most likely a Sergeant First Class (SFC) which would have otherwise made him the platoon sergeant of the Howling Commandos. While Cap was busy being frozen, Fury gained rank at a ridiculous pace, fast tracking to becoming a "full bird" Colonel, or O-6; Officer Level 6. This rank is usually given to brigade commanders, which would fall in line with Fury being director of SHIELD. In the military structure, he will always outrank Cap. 

im in the marines and all i can say is a colonel outranks a captain and even though they are both officers they are still both soldiers...now why all this weird changing of rank and no one being sure who outranks who is probably just the writers not having a clue themselves....also at times in the military u can have a billet over someone who outranks u technically so.