Marvel U. better off without the X-men mythos?

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#1 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

I always found the X-men mythos out of place like a puzzle that just doesn't fit. The X-men I feel have no real connection to the Marvel U. other than crossover events that led to them in a pissing match of VS. Most of the stories told are insular and when a Team Up happens X writers feel compelled to have the X-men complain to The Avengers of how they never help them or the Genosha massacre even though that happened the same time Kang Dynasty had Kang engulf the entire planet in war. Yet Genosha always seems the prevalent in these arguments just so the X-men can guilt heroes and hammer in just how "victimized" they are. With that I say why not throw the entire X-men mythos into a separate universe worked for DC's "Earth 1" title and Wonder Woman by JMS. I don't see the problem for the X-men. After all the 90's cartoon and Evolution showed the X-men perfectly capable of being fine separated from the Marvel Universe.

#2 Edited by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

#3 Edited by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

X-Men should be in their own universe, they're the only reason im buying Marvel.

#5 Posted by AweSam (7375 posts) - - Show Bio

X-Men should be in their own universe, they're te only reason im buying Marvel.

This.

Actually, I started reading Guardians of the Galaxy and love it. Aside from that, it's only been X-men.

#6 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

X-Men should be in their own universe, they're the only reason im buying Marvel.

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

Both these and agree with the problems why the X-men are so out of place with Marvel U.

#7 Posted by Dayvid3 (815 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

I was gonna agree completely. I never understood why one set of freaks was more acceptable than another. Thinking about it just now though, maybe the FF are more open to the public? Also those X types don't really help people much.thye fight each other and cause destruction. Yeah there are good guys, or less bad bad guys, but I think the average joe just sees them using their powers and wrecking stuff.mutants are fighting for themselves, and to their point, hey they have to survive. But they do seem to be throwing around there powers for destructiveness sake. FF, and ugh avengers are more about protecting and helping people.

#8 Edited by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

This. The persecution allegory was a great concept until the shared universe was established.

#9 Posted by nappystr8 (1126 posts) - - Show Bio

I see no upside to removing the X-Men from the greater Marvel Universe. Beast, Quicksivler, and Scarlet Witch are every bit as much Avenger as they are mutant or X-Men. And its the idea of a shared universe that make Marvel and DC the premiere comic book companies. The X-Men pretty much keep to themselves anyway with exception to a few big event books. That means if you don't like the X-Men, you don't have to read them, and if you like the X-Men but hate the rest, you can just read X-Men. And if it's that important to have a single group of powered people who don't belong to a greater universe, there are about a million indy comics out there like that which would be ecstatic to receive some new readership.

And there's a very good reason mutants are hated and feared more than superheroes: while Captain America or Spider-Man are unrepeatable science experiments/accidents, mutants are an actual different species that's existence marks the end of humanity. Besides, people do still hate and fear the rest of the superheroes as well. That's like the first 600 issues of Spider-Man.

#10 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

I only agree about the X-Men hate being contradictory with Spider-Man love.

My personal imagination gives me the explanation that the Anti Mutants dislike spidey too but J Jona Jameson always talked bad about Spidey so they never felt the need to intervene.

Thor always yells that he's the God of Thunder. FF are public figures who are well known origin of how they got their powers. Most of the Avengers have technology based powers.

Lastly this explains why Uncanny Avengers were formed, so that the stupid people who accept the Avengers bit hate mutants can see that they are pretty much one of the same.

#11 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

Well to those saying "But that would mean Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Beast will be taken out!" I have figured that if the X-men were taken out only those with strong ties and used consistently through out the X-men stories would be removed while Wanda and Pietro would stay in the MU with a different origin and background. So I say goodbye Beast and Savage Land since they have been the most used in the X-men mythos.

@m3th: Thats thing Uncanny Avengers just feels like a forced united team after were just done with an event that painted both teams like jerks. Really the only thing after that event was to keep them separated and ignorant of the others plights. Besides two teams hating each other isn't all bad just look at Flash and Green Arrow they hate each other.

#12 Edited by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers can take Wanda and Beast, they were the two worst X-Men (Yes WERE, because now they're Avengers).

#13 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@cheesesticks: Don't forget we keep Quicksilver, and no the X-men can keep Beast that guy will likely kill us all with his incompetence in Time travel in removing people from the past. Also Wanda was never an X-men, yeah she fought them but that was it. The rest of her story was with the Avengers

#14 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

@dayvid3 said:

@reignmaker said:

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

I was gonna agree completely. I never understood why one set of freaks was more acceptable than another. Thinking about it just now though, maybe the FF are more open to the public? Also those X types don't really help people much.thye fight each other and cause destruction. Yeah there are good guys, or less bad bad guys, but I think the average joe just sees them using their powers and wrecking stuff.mutants are fighting for themselves, and to their point, hey they have to survive. But they do seem to be throwing around there powers for destructiveness sake. FF, and ugh avengers are more about protecting and helping people.

I can accept the FF being public sweethearts. But I don't think the acceptance of the ever-changing Avengers, or some of the other singular heroes makes much sense given the public's distrust of mutants. I agree that the mutants seem to be more self-serving in their books, but didn't Professor X get these guys together in part to help humankind? They're still a superhero team. I don't think writers have done a very good job exploring why the "mutant" factor is such an important difference to the MU "common man." Seems to me it could make for a fascinating story.

#15 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers can take Wanda and Beast, they were the two worst X-Men (Yes WERE, because now they're Avengers).

Beast is still an X-Man. Just like Rogue and Havok and Wolverine are.

As for fitting in the Marvel U -- I think they do. I agree with below for the most part:

I see no upside to removing the X-Men from the greater Marvel Universe. Beast, Quicksivler, and Scarlet Witch are every bit as much Avenger as they are mutant or X-Men. And its the idea of a shared universe that make Marvel and DC the premiere comic book companies. The X-Men pretty much keep to themselves anyway with exception to a few big event books. That means if you don't like the X-Men, you don't have to read them, and if you like the X-Men but hate the rest, you can just read X-Men. And if it's that important to have a single group of powered people who don't belong to a greater universe, there are about a million indy comics out there like that which would be ecstatic to receive some new readership.

And there's a very good reason mutants are hated and feared more than superheroes: while Captain America or Spider-Man are unrepeatable science experiments/accidents, mutants are an actual different species that's existence marks the end of humanity. Besides, people do still hate and fear the rest of the superheroes as well. That's like the first 600 issues of Spider-Man.

#16 Edited by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@cheesesticks said:

Avengers can take Wanda and Beast, they were the two worst X-Men (Yes WERE, because now they're Avengers).

Beast is still an X-Man. Just like Rogue and Havok and Wolverine are.

As for fitting in the Marvel U -- I think they do. I agree with below for the most part:

Beast, Havok and Wolverine are Avengers. There's no place for debate. You fight for mutant kind (wich is the purpose of the X-Men) or you fight for the Avengers.

The Avengers and Wolverine think Scott wasn't right to let Hope reverse what Wanda did in House of M (no more mutants, you remember ?).

So Wolverine is an Avengers. Havok is worst than Wolverine, he doesn't even think the Mutant race exist (see his famous speech in Uncanny Avengers).

#17 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh no Wolverine, Havok and Beast belong in X-men so they stay there. Plus I look at this way with the X-men removed from the Marvel U. Events such as: Disassembled, House of M, Decimation and Avengers vs X-men never existed its a win, win for both sides. Besides X-men have no place in the Marvel U. there better off fighting there little ideology war with rival gang The Brotherhood away from the Marvel U.

#18 Posted by nappystr8 (1126 posts) - - Show Bio

@reignmaker: There have been multiple times in the history of the Avengers where they have been feared and hated. Most recently last year during the Bendis run.

#19 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio


Also proof that the X-men and Avengers have always hated each other. Not to mention the hate Ms. Marvel has for Rogue, X-students hating the Avengers and so on. Really I think this just proves that the Marvel U. and X-men would do well separated. That way no more dealing with pointless "I hate you" arguments and fights. Even though the X-men are not separated from the Marvel U. I always felt the two main teams should remain as big enemies but at the same time tolerated each other to a certain extent. Which is why they should implement a law to forbid either side from helping each other no matter the circumstances. X-men solve their own problems and Avengers solve their own. Besides people hating each other isn't all bad look at Flash and Green Arrow, Dark Knight returns Batman and Superman, Captain America and Wolverine, Ms. Marvel and Rogue and so on. Thats why I don't like Uncanny Avengers the team just feels too forced.

#20 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read enough to determine they're out of place, but I agree with what you're saying. Crossovers are awkward and the rest of the time they are separate from everyone else. That said, I think it would be pointless to remove them form the Marvel Universe. The writers realize they should keep them separate, and they're doing that, so I can survive the continuity (and Spider-man is not a mutant) oddities.

#21 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@gotwillpower: Spider-Man was never mutant the only thing he had in common with the X-men was being hated and feared.

#22 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya: I know he wasn't born a mutant or anything, but technically his genome is changed just like a mutant.

#23 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@gotwillpower: Interesting look to it however being a mutant meant being born with the powers and possibly different appearance in the X-men mythos. So Spider-Man still gained his powers like any other accident.

#24 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@cheesesticks said:

Avengers can take Wanda and Beast, they were the two worst X-Men (Yes WERE, because now they're Avengers).

Beast is still an X-Man. Just like Rogue and Havok and Wolverine are.

As for fitting in the Marvel U -- I think they do. I agree with below for the most part:

Beast, Havok and Wolverine are Avengers. There's no place for debate. You fight for mutant kind (wich is the purpose of the X-Men) or you fight for the Avengers.

The Avengers and Wolverine think Scott wasn't right to let Hope reverse what Wanda did in House of M (no more mutants, you remember ?).

So Wolverine is an Avengers. Havok is worst than Wolverine, he doesn't even think the Mutant race exist (see his famous speech in Uncanny Avengers).

Nope. You are wrong. Completely.

#25 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep, get rid of them. Only Morrison made them worth reading, and one series per 50 years isn't great.

#26 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

The problem is anonymity. While heroes have a public face and to a certain extent, accountability, mutants could be anyone. Imagine living in a world where you don't know whether the person who lives next door is a mutant or not. Where any person you see on the street could possess destructive powers that chances are, he or she has little control over. People fear what they cannot control or understand, and if just about anybody can be born with inhuman powers, even if their parents are human - it would understandably create an atmosphere of fear or hysteria. Most people who stumble across powers become either heroes or villains, but when you're a mutant, you could just be an ordinary civilian.

Another possible reason is that mutants as homo sapiens superior represent the next step of human evolution. They are our replacements, and understandably, some people would be terrified of that. Imagine living in a world where humans are no longer at the top of the food chain. As detailed in Morrison's New X-Men, mutants were actually at one point almost going to replace humankind (until M-Day happened). Any species will fight against their own extinction, and while heroes like Spider-Man or the F4 are freak accidents and isolated cases, the mutant race is essentially an act of evolution and number in the thousands. They're not born by chance - they're born as our replacements.

At least, that's the way I rationalize it. I think Marvels probably illustrates it best.

#27 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Also proof that the X-men and Avengers have always hated each other. Not to mention the hate Ms. Marvel has for Rogue, X-students hating the Avengers and so on. Really I think this just proves that the Marvel U. and X-men would do well separated. That way no more dealing with pointless "I hate you" arguments and fights. Even though the X-men are not separated from the Marvel U. I always felt the two main teams should remain as big enemies but at the same time tolerated each other to a certain extent. Which is why they should implement a law to forbid either side from helping each other no matter the circumstances. X-men solve their own problems and Avengers solve their own. Besides people hating each other isn't all bad look at Flash and Green Arrow, Dark Knight returns Batman and Superman, Captain America and Wolverine, Ms. Marvel and Rogue and so on. Thats why I don't like Uncanny Avengers the team just feels too forced.

Ms Marvel (Captain Marvel) does NOT hate Rogue -- in fact, they are quite close and have gotten past their history a long time ago (and this is exemplified in the AvX books) and as for X-students hating the Avengers? What? Outside of schools having rivalries (which is standard fare when it comes to teenagers), there are mutants on both sides - an example of which is X-23 having recently graduated from the Avenger's Academy.

The Avengers and the X-Men have not historically hated each other -- even when taking on the consideration of the AvX -story. There is no war against mutants --- Cyclops' insists there is -- there isn't. This is why the majority of X-Men are at the Jean Grey Institute and if you want to bring this down to who is an X-Man and who isn't -- I don't think Emma, Magneto and Magik compared to Kitty, Iceman, Storm quantify as sterling examples of being one.

The idea Avengers and X-Men are enemies is wrong. As in, within the comics themselves. Captain America does not hate Wolverine -- they are incredibly close and again -- Ms. Marvel and Rogue as incredibly close as well.

#28 Posted by SC (13244 posts) - - Show Bio

There isn't false dichotomy here, X-Men stories can be separate, and good and interlinked and good, and the separate part and interlinked part aren't really so much factors in what is good or not, so why deny the potential for both? Also its painful for me to see people try and insert reason into matters of prejudice. People in reality hate black people but then make exceptions for them when they are on sports teams they like. They hate Asians but not Polynesians, white people but only white people from some white countries. I mean groups in Africa are trying to kill other groups in Africa for ethic reasonings sure as hell you will find some people in a fictional reality being okay with Avengers but hating mutants but only some mutants but also disliking certain non mutant heroes (like Spider-man) especially when you factor in media and government and the spin factor - something that is a factor in real life - of course rationally speaking its weird, bigots, racists (negative sense) don't tend to be that rational. Oh and Spider-man isn't a mutant because he doesn't have an X-Gene and that is Marvels definition for a mutant, and well yeah mutant can be applied to anything mutated - technically all of us, but in Marvel Spidey is classified as a mutate - like Hulk and co

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#29 Posted by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@tigerkaya said:

Also proof that the X-men and Avengers have always hated each other. Not to mention the hate Ms. Marvel has for Rogue, X-students hating the Avengers and so on. Really I think this just proves that the Marvel U. and X-men would do well separated. That way no more dealing with pointless "I hate you" arguments and fights. Even though the X-men are not separated from the Marvel U. I always felt the two main teams should remain as big enemies but at the same time tolerated each other to a certain extent. Which is why they should implement a law to forbid either side from helping each other no matter the circumstances. X-men solve their own problems and Avengers solve their own. Besides people hating each other isn't all bad look at Flash and Green Arrow, Dark Knight returns Batman and Superman, Captain America and Wolverine, Ms. Marvel and Rogue and so on. Thats why I don't like Uncanny Avengers the team just feels too forced.

Ms Marvel (Captain Marvel) does NOT hate Rogue -- in fact, they are quite close and have gotten past their history a long time ago (and this is exemplified in the AvX books) and as for X-students hating the Avengers? What? Outside of schools having rivalries (which is standard fare when it comes to teenagers), there are mutants on both sides - an example of which is X-23 having recently graduated from the Avenger's Academy.

The Avengers and the X-Men have not historically hated each other -- even when taking on the consideration of the AvX -story. There is no war against mutants --- Cyclops' insists there is -- there isn't. This is why the majority of X-Men are at the Jean Grey Institute and if you want to bring this down to who is an X-Man and who isn't -- I don't think Emma, Magneto and Magik compared to Kitty, Iceman, Storm quantify as sterling examples of being one.

The idea Avengers and X-Men are enemies is wrong. As in, within the comics themselves. Captain America does not hate Wolverine -- they are incredibly close and again -- Ms. Marvel and Rogue as incredibly close as well.

Lol are you serious ? There is a war against mutant, didn't you see the rescue mission of Cyclops in Uncanny X-Men ? Go read Uncanny X-Men 1 Shield is at war with the Mutant and the Avengers are on their side. The majority of the X-Men are at Wolverine school because he is an avengers and they trust him.

#30 Edited by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm tired of hearing this nonsense everywhere.

The mutante "problem" make perfect sense in the marvel universe. Racism, and prejudice in general are irracional attitudes, if only mutants had powers in their universe the fear of the pople would be kind of acceptable.

The x-men can be seen as a metaphor of our world minorities. I ask you, what reason does white people have to hate black people? To one religion hate another? To straight people hate gays? Men to hate women?

Now, what reason does people from marvel universe have to hate mutants in a world of Thor and Hulks? See, that's the relevance of X-men.

#31 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco: But heres the thing in the cartoons the X-men could still sell the whole "world against them" without the Marvel U. So why is it such a problem if the X-men line is separated from the Marvel U. entirely its not going to make much of a big deal. The X-men can still have their stories of prejudice minus the Marvel U. and the Marvel U. will be just fine without the X-men mythos. After all Marvel took out The Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom and the Hulk out of the Marvel U. entirely after one of the X-men's messes from Onslaught. Really the Marvel will be doing fans of both sides to have the Marvel U. and X-men mythos separated.

#32 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5947 posts) - - Show Bio

With me, there are times where I felt that the X-Men were a bit out of place with the rest of the Marvel Universe, especially the whole idea about them being mutants. In concerning about whether or not the X-Men should be in a separate universe, I think it all depends on whether or not the writers will address the issue about mutants being mistreated more than other beings who have powers, but are not mutants. Even though Uncanny Avengers has a mixture of some of the X-Men members with the Avengers, I think it would be better if there was a story line that actually addressed about why humanity is more accepting of super powered beings like the Fantastic Four while the mutants like the X-Men are still frowned upon. It's great that they are trying to put the X-Men and the Avengers together, but it feels forced and unless they addressed the issue about super powered beings and the mutants being in the same universe, it wouldn't make much sense to have the Avengers and the X-Men being in the same team together. Sure, Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have been Avengers for a long time, but I'm talking about the current team set in Uncanny Avengers.

#33 Edited by The Stegman (25080 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm so tired of the X Men, I wouldn't mind if they disappeared right about now.

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#34 Edited by God_Spawn (38114 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis:

Beast is still an X-Man. Just like Rogue and Havok and Wolverine are.

Beast is a cancer that needs to be cut out. He doesn't deserve the X-men title.

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#35 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@cheesesticks said:

Lol are you serious ? There is a war against mutant, didn't you see the rescue mission of Cyclops in Uncanny X-Men ? Go read Uncanny X-Men 1 Shield is at war with the Mutant and the Avengers are on their side. The majority of the X-Men are at Wolverine school because he is an avengers and they trust him.

There is no war -- there is over-reaction to the er-emergence of mutants around the world of which ALL mutants are not too happy about, not just Cyclops and Friends. I suggest you go back and re-read Uncanny X-Men (and perhaps maybe invest in some time spent on reading All New from its beginning) but take off your ruby-coloured glasses when/if you do.

Your last sentence is clearly wrong but I've realized everything you have been sharing on this thread is purely your opinion so there is no point me explaining how wrong you are.

#36 Posted by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@cheesesticks said:

Lol are you serious ? There is a war against mutant, didn't you see the rescue mission of Cyclops in Uncanny X-Men ? Go read Uncanny X-Men 1 Shield is at war with the Mutant and the Avengers are on their side. The majority of the X-Men are at Wolverine school because he is an avengers and they trust him.

There is no war -- there is over-reaction to the er-emergence of mutants around the world of which ALL mutants are not too happy about, not just Cyclops and Friends. I suggest you go back and re-read Uncanny X-Men (and perhaps maybe invest in some time spent on reading All New from its beginning) but take off your ruby-coloured glasses when/if you do.

Your last sentence is clearly wrong but I've realized everything you have been sharing on this thread is purely your opinion so there is no point me explaining how wrong you are.

So basically, the war against the Mutant isn't a real war, it's just over-reaction ? Shield trying to kill Mutant is just over-reaction ? Okay, i can't argue with someone like you.

#37 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

With me, there are times where I felt that the X-Men were a bit out of place with the rest of the Marvel Universe, especially the whole idea about them being mutants. In concerning about whether or not the X-Men should be in a separate universe, I think it all depends on whether or not the writers will address the issue about mutants being mistreated more than other beings who have powers, but are not mutants. Even though Uncanny Avengers has a mixture of some of the X-Men members with the Avengers, I think it would be better if there was a story line that actually addressed about why humanity is more accepting of super powered beings like the Fantastic Four while the mutants like the X-Men are still frowned upon. It's great that they are trying to put the X-Men and the Avengers together, but it feels forced and unless they addressed the issue about super powered beings and the mutants being in the same universe, it wouldn't make much sense to have the Avengers and the X-Men being in the same team together. Sure, Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have been Avengers for a long time, but I'm talking about the current team set in Uncanny Avengers.

I agree - there is a hypocrisy, isn't there? Any X-Man who is also a member of the Avengers no longer is working as an X-Man when in that environment. They are an Avenger. No writer has presented it different until now -- with the whole AvX debacle and look where the story has gone? The hypocrisy -- on both sides - makes the entire story nonsensical and it's continuing in all three books - Uncanny X-Men and All-New X-Men and Uncanny Avengers but ESPECIALLY in that book.

How I loathe the whole idea of it. If the Avengers and SHIELD want to promote the idea mutants and base humanity can get along -- then why not have some of the Avengers join the X-Men? The argument that they can't because they do not have the "x" gene is in itself exclusive, right? Either you believe everyone is the same or you don't -- either you consider the title of X-Men one which can be bestowed on anyone who believes in peaceful co-existence between mutants and base humanity or you don't.

Ugh -- I detest this garbage. If you are going to take on important ideals such as dropping the word "mutant" (which I agree with) then go about it the right way. I want to see some Avengers stomping around Jean Grey's Institute wearing a X-badge. That makes it fair.

I see the two co-existing in the same comic universe but the hypocrisy in how both sides treat the other should be addressed and it's not and the writers (Bendis and Hickman and Remender) are insulting readers by ignoring the Pink Elephant in the room they are responsible for.

#38 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@cheesesticks said:

Lol are you serious ? There is a war against mutant, didn't you see the rescue mission of Cyclops in Uncanny X-Men ? Go read Uncanny X-Men 1 Shield is at war with the Mutant and the Avengers are on their side. The majority of the X-Men are at Wolverine school because he is an avengers and they trust him.

There is no war -- there is over-reaction to the er-emergence of mutants around the world of which ALL mutants are not too happy about, not just Cyclops and Friends. I suggest you go back and re-read Uncanny X-Men (and perhaps maybe invest in some time spent on reading All New from its beginning) but take off your ruby-coloured glasses when/if you do.

Your last sentence is clearly wrong but I've realized everything you have been sharing on this thread is purely your opinion so there is no point me explaining how wrong you are.

So basically, the war against the Mutant isn't a real war, it's just over-reaction ? Shield trying to kill Mutant is just over-reaction ? Okay, i can't argue with someone like you.

Someone who views SHIELD as trying to kill mutants is someone I can't argue with, agreed. Please proceed to ignore me.

#39 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: I think it would really depend on which non-mutants were brought in. Being born with a mutation that gives you powers is something that makes the mutants different from most people, and it's a situation which requires special education and attention which a normal school couldn't provide. Humans and mutants should easily be able to get along, but that doesn't mean "everyone is the same." As has been noted elsewhere, normal people can't control minds or walk through walls or shoot fire out of their hands. That makes mutants patently not the same. But that doesn't make them a higher or lower class of being.

On the other side, I think there are certainly young people who have been mutated/changed which do deserve a place alongside the mutant kids (I'll use Cloak and Dagger as an example -- their One-Shot from a couple years ago, in which Dagger is basically told since she's not a mutant she can't be an X-Man). The issue should be whether they have abilities that they need help dealing with and focusing; not how or why those abilities exist. But I think the existence of the abilities is the baseline requirement. They're all still different from normal people, though.

Side note: this whole conversation has reminded me of the Avenue Q song "Everyone's a little bit racist."

#40 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@lykopis: I think it would really depend on which non-mutants were brought in. Being born with a mutation that gives you powers is something that makes the mutants different from most people, and it's a situation which requires special education and attention which a normal school couldn't provide. Humans and mutants should easily be able to get along, but that doesn't mean "everyone is the same." As has been noted elsewhere, normal people can't control minds or walk through walls or shoot fire out of their hands. That makes mutants patently not the same. But that doesn't make them a higher or lower class of being.

On the other side, I think there are certainly young people who have been mutated/changed which do deserve a place alongside the mutant kids (I'll use Cloak and Dagger as an example -- their One-Shot from a couple years ago, in which Dagger is basically told since she's not a mutant she can't be an X-Man). The issue should be whether they have abilities that they need help dealing with and focusing; not how or why those abilities exist. But I think the existence of the abilities is the baseline requirement. They're all still different from normal people, though.

Side note: this whole conversation has reminded me of the Avenue Q song "Everyone's a little bit racist."

I meant Avengers or super-powered people who are NOT mutants sign up and/or be allowed to be part of the X-Men, not base-line humans become part of the student body. I apologize for not being more clear Any child who is not a mutant but wields a power should be allowed to join the school as a student -- having the X-gene should not matter.

It should be an open slate. Everyone is different -- not the same but ALL are equal and all deserve the same opportunities in life and consideration.

(ha to the Avenue Q reference)

#41 Posted by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@akbogert said:

@lykopis: I think it would really depend on which non-mutants were brought in. Being born with a mutation that gives you powers is something that makes the mutants different from most people, and it's a situation which requires special education and attention which a normal school couldn't provide. Humans and mutants should easily be able to get along, but that doesn't mean "everyone is the same." As has been noted elsewhere, normal people can't control minds or walk through walls or shoot fire out of their hands. That makes mutants patently not the same. But that doesn't make them a higher or lower class of being.

On the other side, I think there are certainly young people who have been mutated/changed which do deserve a place alongside the mutant kids (I'll use Cloak and Dagger as an example -- their One-Shot from a couple years ago, in which Dagger is basically told since she's not a mutant she can't be an X-Man). The issue should be whether they have abilities that they need help dealing with and focusing; not how or why those abilities exist. But I think the existence of the abilities is the baseline requirement. They're all still different from normal people, though.

Side note: this whole conversation has reminded me of the Avenue Q song "Everyone's a little bit racist."

I meant Avengers or super-powered people who are NOT mutants sign up and/or be allowed to be part of the X-Men, not base-line humans become part of the student body. I apologize for not being more clear Any child who is not a mutant but wields a power should be allowed to join the school as a student -- having the X-gene should not matter.

It should be an open slate. Everyone is different -- not the same but ALL are equal and all deserve the same opportunities in life and consideration.

(ha to the Avenue Q reference)

We'll always have Longshot. The true pioneer.

#42 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@lykopis said:

@akbogert said:

@lykopis: I think it would really depend on which non-mutants were brought in. Being born with a mutation that gives you powers is something that makes the mutants different from most people, and it's a situation which requires special education and attention which a normal school couldn't provide. Humans and mutants should easily be able to get along, but that doesn't mean "everyone is the same." As has been noted elsewhere, normal people can't control minds or walk through walls or shoot fire out of their hands. That makes mutants patently not the same. But that doesn't make them a higher or lower class of being.

On the other side, I think there are certainly young people who have been mutated/changed which do deserve a place alongside the mutant kids (I'll use Cloak and Dagger as an example -- their One-Shot from a couple years ago, in which Dagger is basically told since she's not a mutant she can't be an X-Man). The issue should be whether they have abilities that they need help dealing with and focusing; not how or why those abilities exist. But I think the existence of the abilities is the baseline requirement. They're all still different from normal people, though.

Side note: this whole conversation has reminded me of the Avenue Q song "Everyone's a little bit racist."

I meant Avengers or super-powered people who are NOT mutants sign up and/or be allowed to be part of the X-Men, not base-line humans become part of the student body. I apologize for not being more clear Any child who is not a mutant but wields a power should be allowed to join the school as a student -- having the X-gene should not matter.

It should be an open slate. Everyone is different -- not the same but ALL are equal and all deserve the same opportunities in life and consideration.

(ha to the Avenue Q reference)

We'll always have Longshot. The true pioneer.

Nice catch!

#43 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5947 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@rabbitearsblog said:

With me, there are times where I felt that the X-Men were a bit out of place with the rest of the Marvel Universe, especially the whole idea about them being mutants. In concerning about whether or not the X-Men should be in a separate universe, I think it all depends on whether or not the writers will address the issue about mutants being mistreated more than other beings who have powers, but are not mutants. Even though Uncanny Avengers has a mixture of some of the X-Men members with the Avengers, I think it would be better if there was a story line that actually addressed about why humanity is more accepting of super powered beings like the Fantastic Four while the mutants like the X-Men are still frowned upon. It's great that they are trying to put the X-Men and the Avengers together, but it feels forced and unless they addressed the issue about super powered beings and the mutants being in the same universe, it wouldn't make much sense to have the Avengers and the X-Men being in the same team together. Sure, Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have been Avengers for a long time, but I'm talking about the current team set in Uncanny Avengers.

I agree - there is a hypocrisy, isn't there? Any X-Man who is also a member of the Avengers no longer is working as an X-Man when in that environment. They are an Avenger. No writer has presented it different until now -- with the whole AvX debacle and look where the story has gone? The hypocrisy -- on both sides - makes the entire story nonsensical and it's continuing in all three books - Uncanny X-Men and All-New X-Men and Uncanny Avengers but ESPECIALLY in that book.

How I loathe the whole idea of it. If the Avengers and SHIELD want to promote the idea mutants and base humanity can get along -- then why not have some of the Avengers join the X-Men? The argument that they can't because they do not have the "x" gene is in itself exclusive, right? Either you believe everyone is the same or you don't -- either you consider the title of X-Men one which can be bestowed on anyone who believes in peaceful co-existence between mutants and base humanity or you don't.

Ugh -- I detest this garbage. If you are going to take on important ideals such as dropping the word "mutant" (which I agree with) then go about it the right way. I want to see some Avengers stomping around Jean Grey's Institute wearing a X-badge. That makes it fair.

I see the two co-existing in the same comic universe but the hypocrisy in how both sides treat the other should be addressed and it's not and the writers (Bendis and Hickman and Remender) are insulting readers by ignoring the Pink Elephant in the room they are responsible for.

I definitely would like to have a story where some of the Avengers members actually join the X-Men. It would really bring the point home about how the X-Men are trying to help humanity understand that they are the good guys and it would also bring something new to the X-Men stories.

#44 Edited by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio
@rabbitearsblog said:

@lykopis said:

@rabbitearsblog said:

With me, there are times where I felt that the X-Men were a bit out of place with the rest of the Marvel Universe, especially the whole idea about them being mutants. In concerning about whether or not the X-Men should be in a separate universe, I think it all depends on whether or not the writers will address the issue about mutants being mistreated more than other beings who have powers, but are not mutants. Even though Uncanny Avengers has a mixture of some of the X-Men members with the Avengers, I think it would be better if there was a story line that actually addressed about why humanity is more accepting of super powered beings like the Fantastic Four while the mutants like the X-Men are still frowned upon. It's great that they are trying to put the X-Men and the Avengers together, but it feels forced and unless they addressed the issue about super powered beings and the mutants being in the same universe, it wouldn't make much sense to have the Avengers and the X-Men being in the same team together. Sure, Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have been Avengers for a long time, but I'm talking about the current team set in Uncanny Avengers.

I agree - there is a hypocrisy, isn't there? Any X-Man who is also a member of the Avengers no longer is working as an X-Man when in that environment. They are an Avenger. No writer has presented it different until now -- with the whole AvX debacle and look where the story has gone? The hypocrisy -- on both sides - makes the entire story nonsensical and it's continuing in all three books - Uncanny X-Men and All-New X-Men and Uncanny Avengers but ESPECIALLY in that book.

How I loathe the whole idea of it. If the Avengers and SHIELD want to promote the idea mutants and base humanity can get along -- then why not have some of the Avengers join the X-Men? The argument that they can't because they do not have the "x" gene is in itself exclusive, right? Either you believe everyone is the same or you don't -- either you consider the title of X-Men one which can be bestowed on anyone who believes in peaceful co-existence between mutants and base humanity or you don't.

Ugh -- I detest this garbage. If you are going to take on important ideals such as dropping the word "mutant" (which I agree with) then go about it the right way. I want to see some Avengers stomping around Jean Grey's Institute wearing a X-badge. That makes it fair.

I see the two co-existing in the same comic universe but the hypocrisy in how both sides treat the other should be addressed and it's not and the writers (Bendis and Hickman and Remender) are insulting readers by ignoring the Pink Elephant in the room they are responsible for.

I definitely would like to have a story where some of the Avengers members actually join the X-Men. It would really bring the point home about how the X-Men are trying to help humanity understand that they are the good guys and it would also bring something new to the X-Men stories.

To be an X-Men is to have the X-gene.

Avengers can't be X-Men

X-Men goal : defending the mutant race

Avengers goal : defending earth

The X-Men stories are good because they are different from the rest of the world, feared and hunted. Do you really think they are going to be fear and hunt if Captain America join the X-Men ? Also, many X-Men fan hate the Avengers and the X-Men book are selling very well (Uncanny X-Men and All new at the top). The selling would drop so fast if Marvel mix the Avengers with the X-Men and to unite them would be the biggest mistake ever made by Marvel. X-Men stories would lose their charm.

And yes an X-Men who join the Avengers are not X-Men anymore, because to be an X-Men is to be in a community. How can you defend the mutant cause when you are an Avengers ? They have more business than defending the Mutant (that's why the X-men exist).

#45 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

I never liked the idea of Uncanny Avengers to begin with. It felt extremely forced after AvsX pretty much showed the two teams hating each other fighting without mercy and with extreme prejudice. The two teams should have cut out any and all communications with one another right their. As to the idea of an Avenger joining the X-men I find that unlikely. The X-men would just kick them out with their prejudice of someone working with the government and due to lack of an X-gene. To me the X-men are just as big hypocrites as the Avengers only difference the X-men are far worst with their claim of coexistence.

#46 Edited by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabbitearsblog said:

@lykopis said:

@rabbitearsblog said:

With me, there are times where I felt that the X-Men were a bit out of place with the rest of the Marvel Universe, especially the whole idea about them being mutants. In concerning about whether or not the X-Men should be in a separate universe, I think it all depends on whether or not the writers will address the issue about mutants being mistreated more than other beings who have powers, but are not mutants. Even though Uncanny Avengers has a mixture of some of the X-Men members with the Avengers, I think it would be better if there was a story line that actually addressed about why humanity is more accepting of super powered beings like the Fantastic Four while the mutants like the X-Men are still frowned upon. It's great that they are trying to put the X-Men and the Avengers together, but it feels forced and unless they addressed the issue about super powered beings and the mutants being in the same universe, it wouldn't make much sense to have the Avengers and the X-Men being in the same team together. Sure, Beast, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have been Avengers for a long time, but I'm talking about the current team set in Uncanny Avengers.

I agree - there is a hypocrisy, isn't there? Any X-Man who is also a member of the Avengers no longer is working as an X-Man when in that environment. They are an Avenger. No writer has presented it different until now -- with the whole AvX debacle and look where the story has gone? The hypocrisy -- on both sides - makes the entire story nonsensical and it's continuing in all three books - Uncanny X-Men and All-New X-Men and Uncanny Avengers but ESPECIALLY in that book.

How I loathe the whole idea of it. If the Avengers and SHIELD want to promote the idea mutants and base humanity can get along -- then why not have some of the Avengers join the X-Men? The argument that they can't because they do not have the "x" gene is in itself exclusive, right? Either you believe everyone is the same or you don't -- either you consider the title of X-Men one which can be bestowed on anyone who believes in peaceful co-existence between mutants and base humanity or you don't.

Ugh -- I detest this garbage. If you are going to take on important ideals such as dropping the word "mutant" (which I agree with) then go about it the right way. I want to see some Avengers stomping around Jean Grey's Institute wearing a X-badge. That makes it fair.

I see the two co-existing in the same comic universe but the hypocrisy in how both sides treat the other should be addressed and it's not and the writers (Bendis and Hickman and Remender) are insulting readers by ignoring the Pink Elephant in the room they are responsible for.

I definitely would like to have a story where some of the Avengers members actually join the X-Men. It would really bring the point home about how the X-Men are trying to help humanity understand that they are the good guys and it would also bring something new to the X-Men stories.

To be an X-Men is to have the X-gene.

Avengers can't be X-Men

X-Men goal : defending the mutant race

Avengers goal : defending earth

The X-Men stories are good because they are different from the rest of the world, feared and hunted. Do you really think they are going to be fear and hunt if Captain America join the X-Men ? Also, many X-Men fan hate the Avengers and the X-Men book are selling very well (Uncanny X-Men and All new at the top). The selling would drop so fast if Marvel mix the Avengers with the X-Men and to unite them would be the biggest mistake ever made by Marvel. X-Men stories would lose their charm.

And yes an X-Men who join the Avengers are not X-Men anymore, because to be an X-Men is to be in a community. How can you defend the mutant cause when you are an Avengers ? They have more business than defending the Mutant (that's why the X-men exist).

The x-men have never been about "defending the mutant race" at most they've been a superhero advocacy group. There motto should be something akin to "don't hate us, respect us". If there is any adherence to Xavier's philosophy, there should be non-mutant members in the X-men or having a non-X-men mutant advocacy group featuring non-mutants, because that would be the ultimate expression of Xavier's dream. The Uncanny Avengers should be a prime example of that, but I think there missing a prime opportunity to tell a true proper story. AvX was a terrible lead-in for the series and having everyone in the series act like children isn't helping out much.

#47 Posted by Joygirl (20063 posts) - - Show Bio

Your brainythink makes silly thought-ideas.

#48 Posted by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@cheesesticks said:

To be an X-Men is to have the X-gene.

Avengers can't be X-Men

X-Men goal : defending the mutant race

Avengers goal : defending earth

The X-Men stories are good because they are different from the rest of the world, feared and hunted. Do you really think they are going to be fear and hunt if Captain America join the X-Men ? Also, many X-Men fan hate the Avengers and the X-Men book are selling very well (Uncanny X-Men and All new at the top). The selling would drop so fast if Marvel mix the Avengers with the X-Men and to unite them would be the biggest mistake ever made by Marvel. X-Men stories would lose their charm.

And yes an X-Men who join the Avengers are not X-Men anymore, because to be an X-Men is to be in a community. How can you defend the mutant cause when you are an Avengers ? They have more business than defending the Mutant (that's why the X-men exist).

The x-men have never been about "defending the mutant race" at most they've been a superhero advocacy group. There motto should be something akin to "don't hate us, respect us". If there is any adherence to Xavier's philosophy, there should be non-mutant members in the X-men or having a non-X-men mutant advocacy group featuring non-mutants, because that would be the ultimate expression of Xavier's dream. The Uncanny Avengers should be a prime example of that, but I think there missing a prime opportunity to tell a true proper story. AvX was a terrible lead-in for the series and having everyone in the series act like children isn't helping out much.

X-Men has always been about teaching Mutant how to use their power. They create a school to protect them because Mutant are FEARED and HUNTED by Human. Don't say they are not about protecting Mutant when it is their duty.

However, i can see your point about Uncanny Avengers being the best example of Xavier's dream. But, right now, when Human can't see the Mutant as Human like them, you need to defend Mutantkind even if it means war. Mutant are getting killed out there because Human are not ready yet to see them as heroes. Basically, you think Xavier is right and i'm with Cyclops and Magneto on this one. I respect your opinion !

#49 Posted by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@cheesesticks said:

To be an X-Men is to have the X-gene.

Avengers can't be X-Men

X-Men goal : defending the mutant race

Avengers goal : defending earth

The X-Men stories are good because they are different from the rest of the world, feared and hunted. Do you really think they are going to be fear and hunt if Captain America join the X-Men ? Also, many X-Men fan hate the Avengers and the X-Men book are selling very well (Uncanny X-Men and All new at the top). The selling would drop so fast if Marvel mix the Avengers with the X-Men and to unite them would be the biggest mistake ever made by Marvel. X-Men stories would lose their charm.

And yes an X-Men who join the Avengers are not X-Men anymore, because to be an X-Men is to be in a community. How can you defend the mutant cause when you are an Avengers ? They have more business than defending the Mutant (that's why the X-men exist).

The x-men have never been about "defending the mutant race" at most they've been a superhero advocacy group. There motto should be something akin to "don't hate us, respect us". If there is any adherence to Xavier's philosophy, there should be non-mutant members in the X-men or having a non-X-men mutant advocacy group featuring non-mutants, because that would be the ultimate expression of Xavier's dream. The Uncanny Avengers should be a prime example of that, but I think there missing a prime opportunity to tell a true proper story. AvX was a terrible lead-in for the series and having everyone in the series act like children isn't helping out much.

X-Men has always been about teaching Mutant how to use their power. They create a school to protect them because Mutant are FEARED and HUNTED by Human. Don't say they are not about protecting Mutant when it is their duty.

However, i can see your point about Uncanny Avengers being the best example of Xavier's dream. But, right now, when Human can't see the Mutant as Human like them, you need to defend Mutantkind even if it means war. Mutant are getting killed out there because Human are not ready yet to see them as heroes. Basically, you think Xavier is right and i'm with Cyclops and Magneto on this one. I respect your opinion !

Most of the x-men adversaries have been mutants, who in many instances are hurting the public at-large. So how are they protecting mutants when they're fighting mutants and generally saving the non-mutant world? It's somewhat rare when the X-men deal with actual base-line humans with racist attitudes. It's also quite a generality to say humans hate mutants, a certain aspect yes but not everyone. They may face prejudice like persons of color or gays/lesbians but really the best way to counter that is for mutants to live there life out in the open and provide an example that they're as normal and human as everyone else. In some ways costumed x-men may hinder this, but the Magneto way surely has to be counterproductive.

And really nothing has changed, we're back to the status quo and there isn't any more hate and fear than what we've seen before. And if mutantdom's only chance of survival is war, then it's going to lose and lose hard. How could the possibly win? It's an illogical strategy, especially in light of the Genosha Holocaust. Besides not only are you involving all other mutant heroes, but you're also likely involving civilian mutants who want no part of this course of action as well.

#50 Edited by CheeseSticks (2536 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@cheesesticks said:

@polarity said:

@cheesesticks said:

To be an X-Men is to have the X-gene.

Avengers can't be X-Men

X-Men goal : defending the mutant race

Avengers goal : defending earth

The X-Men stories are good because they are different from the rest of the world, feared and hunted. Do you really think they are going to be fear and hunt if Captain America join the X-Men ? Also, many X-Men fan hate the Avengers and the X-Men book are selling very well (Uncanny X-Men and All new at the top). The selling would drop so fast if Marvel mix the Avengers with the X-Men and to unite them would be the biggest mistake ever made by Marvel. X-Men stories would lose their charm.

And yes an X-Men who join the Avengers are not X-Men anymore, because to be an X-Men is to be in a community. How can you defend the mutant cause when you are an Avengers ? They have more business than defending the Mutant (that's why the X-men exist).

The x-men have never been about "defending the mutant race" at most they've been a superhero advocacy group. There motto should be something akin to "don't hate us, respect us". If there is any adherence to Xavier's philosophy, there should be non-mutant members in the X-men or having a non-X-men mutant advocacy group featuring non-mutants, because that would be the ultimate expression of Xavier's dream. The Uncanny Avengers should be a prime example of that, but I think there missing a prime opportunity to tell a true proper story. AvX was a terrible lead-in for the series and having everyone in the series act like children isn't helping out much.

X-Men has always been about teaching Mutant how to use their power. They create a school to protect them because Mutant are FEARED and HUNTED by Human. Don't say they are not about protecting Mutant when it is their duty.

However, i can see your point about Uncanny Avengers being the best example of Xavier's dream. But, right now, when Human can't see the Mutant as Human like them, you need to defend Mutantkind even if it means war. Mutant are getting killed out there because Human are not ready yet to see them as heroes. Basically, you think Xavier is right and i'm with Cyclops and Magneto on this one. I respect your opinion !

Most of the x-men adversaries have been mutants, who in many instances are hurting the public at-large. So how are they protecting mutants when they're fighting mutants and generally saving the non-mutant world? It's somewhat rare when the X-men deal with actual base-line humans with racist attitudes. It's also quite a generality to say humans hate mutants, a certain aspect yes but not everyone. They may face prejudice like persons of color or gays/lesbians but really the best way to counter that is for mutants to live there life out in the open and provide an example that they're as normal and human as everyone else. In some ways costumed x-men may hinder this, but the Magneto way surely has to be counterproductive.

And really nothing has changed, we're back to the status quo and there isn't any more hate and fear than what we've seen before. And if mutantdom's only chance of survival is war, then it's going to lose and lose hard. How could the possibly win? It's an illogical strategy, especially in light of the Genosha Holocaust. Besides not only are you involving all other mutant heroes, but you're also likely involving civilian mutants who want no part of this course of action as well.

Well, they are protecting the innocent Mutant who can't defend themselve alone. Excuse me, i did not specified. There's not more hate, but there's hate. The police and some government agency are trying to kill the new emergence of Mutant (Uncanny X-Men and All New X-Men). So there's still hate on Mutant and the X-Men need to protect them.

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