Marvel Teams

#1 Edited by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion Marvel is doing this all wrong. They are spending all their time stretching out the ranks of teams like The X-men and The Avengers into more teams that are really variations of the same theme. They should bring back the days of the 70's and 80's when there were other teams like The Defenders and The Champions.  
 
 



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
If the same amount of time spent on this other Avengers and X-men teams were spent on really developing these teams for a new era they would be great. DC has such a number of teams with their on comics and even Wildstorm have many different types that handle various types of threats. Marvel really has 3: The Avengers, The X-men and The Fantastic Four.  
 

 
How do you feel about this?
#2 Posted by Vance Astro (91235 posts) - - Show Bio

Well let's look at it like this.With 3 Avengers teams,more characters can get some burn in a mainstream comic.It also makes sense that their is 3 teams because of the circumstances.Norman's Dark Avengers are the official Avengers by law.Pym's Mighty Avengers are Tony's Mighty Avengers after the Secret Invasion and Ronin\Ms.Marvel's New Avengers are Cap's New\Secret Avengers after Civil War,Initiative,and Secret Invasion.This is the thing.They all want to be Avengers because they were chose for it but they won't join with Norman because he's evil and they won't join with Tony\Pym's Avengers because they were enemies during Civil War & Initiative.It makes sense.However you know with the Mighty Avengers and the New Avengers both being fugitives of the law essentially putting them on the same side and the Dark Avengers being composed of villains.This will not last.I predict a another Heroes Reborn...a re-definition of what it means to be a hero. 
 
Let's face it.Other teams in Marvel will never be as popular as the X-men or the Avengers and this is why those books are cancelled.New Warriors just got cancelled for sales,Heroes for Hire before that, and i'm positive the same happened with the other books.There is really no need for all these teams to have books.They could really use the initiative book to showcase them all and then give them mini-series periodically.Or they could put those teams together in another book and make it a "Marvel Comics Presents" type thing.Three different stories and teams in one book.

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#3 Posted by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio
@Statman said:
" we're in an era and time of not bringing things back but instead improving on them or scrapping it and starting from scratch... there's only so many ideas you can come up with b4 u kill what it is ur trying to re-create or improve. "
It seems to be working well for DC comics. Look at how well The JSA comics are doing. That's because of the time an effort being taken to make the team and comic as good as the JLA. With more and more villains in Marvel teaming up, it would be a great time to re-introduce or re-invent these great teams. Spread the wealth and mix it up a bit. Instead of doing the same old thing. It's getting pretty predictable.
#4 Posted by Vance Astro (91235 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Hercules said:
" @Statman said:
" we're in an era and time of not bringing things back but instead improving on them or scrapping it and starting from scratch... there's only so many ideas you can come up with b4 u kill what it is ur trying to re-create or improve. "
It seems to be working well for DC comics. Look at how well The JSA comics are doing. That's because of the time an effort being taken to make the team and comic as good as the JLA. With more and more villains in Marvel teaming up, it would be a great time to re-introduce or re-invent these great teams. Spread the wealth and mix it up a bit. Instead of doing the same old thing. It's getting pretty predictable. "
What are you talking about? JSA is DC's X-men.JLA is their central team book (Avengers to Marvel) then comes JSA.How is that any different than what Marvel is doing.They have two main teams with books that sell and the rest are days away from being cancelled.
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#5 Posted by King Quisling (1980 posts) - - Show Bio

I know what you mean.  We got to see the Defenders not too long ago but they were being written by Loeb and we haven't seen the Champions since WWH. But one thing you gotta keep in mind is that with the 50 state initiative many of the classic team names are being used for certain states. 

#6 Posted by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: I would say that the outsiders or the titans are more like Marvel's X-men, but that's how i see the characters. The JSA are made up of DC's less popular characters, though they are still somewhat known. But DC is working hard on trying to change that. For example, most people know about Hal Jordan and even John Stewart, Guy and Kyle. And given a preference most would rather read about their exploits than Alan Scott a few years ago, but now he is growing in popularity and those who didn't know about him are want to know more now.
#7 Posted by Vance Astro (91235 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Hercules said:
" @Vance Astro: I would say that the outsiders or the titans are more like Marvel's X-men, but that's how i see the characters. The JSA are made up of DC's less popular characters, though they are still somewhat known. But DC is working hard on trying to change that. For example, most people know about Hal Jordan and even John Stewart, Guy and Kyle. And given a preference most would rather read about their exploits than Alan Scott a few years ago, but now he is growing in popularity and those who didn't know about him are want to know more now. "
The Outsiders and Titans are more like the X-men as far as characters but not as far as sales and popularity.JLA is DC's highest selling team book followed by JSA.Marvel's is Avengers followed by X-men and depending one the events they switch places.Sometimes X-men trades places for best seller with the Avengers.JSA is made up of Golden Age heroes and seeing as how the average comic reader was born nearest that era..they would know those face.Also if you look at teams like the Titans and JSA,they are composed of similar members to the JLA.They have a Superman style character,a Batman,a Wonder Woman,a GL,they have all of the same ingredients.DC hasn't worked hard to change anything. 
 
Marvel has 3 Avengers teams,The Thunderbolts,2 X-men teams,The Initiative,The Agents of Atlas,and the Secret Warriors.All of those books do fairly well,Avengers and X-men is just the most popular two.Titans will survive,but I doubt in a few years we will still see Outsiders.They aren't popular enough to stay a float.If DC wants to work hard to change something,I challenge them to make Outsiders more popular.As far as I am concerned that's the best team book they have anyway.
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#8 Posted by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: The Thunderbolts and the Intitive are Avengers connected books. They are like The New Mutants to the X-Men and if the Brotherhood started a series. And you really can't see the Secret warriors and the Agents lasting do you? My point is that there is a world out there that the Avengers and X-men are not a part of or don't have to be. Marvels' world can be larger than what is shown these days. I mean having everyone in one city is a old concept. Why would the villains stay there? Marvel needs to takes some hints from Dc and stop riding their one trick pony.
#9 Posted by Vance Astro (91235 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Hercules said:
" @Vance Astro: The Thunderbolts and the Intitive are Avengers connected books. They are like The New Mutants to the X-Men and if the Brotherhood started a series. And you really can't see the Secret warriors and the Agents lasting do you? My point is that there is a world out there that the Avengers and X-men are not a part of or don't have to be. Marvels' world can be larger than what is shown these days. I mean having everyone in one city is a old concept. Why would the villains stay there? Marvel needs to takes some hints from Dc and stop riding their one trick pony. "
They aren't all connected.Read them.The Avengers books aren't even all connected. 
They aren't anything like the New Mutants. 
Secret Warriors and Agents may not last but they don't need too.I think they are only there for the event.However Marvel has several teams on reserve with the Initiative they can just put out at any time.Like they did with Skrull Kill Krew.My point is these books are a big part of Marvel's event and they do pretty good numbers in sales and they definitely could last if Marvel wanted them to and if they had a purpose. 
Marvel's can be larger than what is shown? So I guess you forgot about War of the Kings and Guardians of the Galaxy?
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#10 Edited by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: I read them. The Initiative was interesting in the beginning but it has lost it's flavor of late. The Secret Warrior and the Agents are not meant t last. Marvel reminds me of today's music artist. The rush out putting out as many albums as possible and they sell well for the moment but their longevity is one day out of a year. The Avengers are not connected? They all play off each other in some way. I'm buying them all right now and I can tell you, they are connected. The War of Kings is a great mini -series and something good could come out of it that could last if Marvel would invest into it. I know I sound as though I'm bashing Marvel, but because they are my favorite, I hate to see them sell themselves short. I know there is a lot of emotion in my talk but I've been reading comics since the 70's and have watched some good concept fail due to poor management of the characters.
#11 Posted by RaptorFratBoy (550 posts) - - Show Bio

The Defenders get revived about once every five years, and it fails each and every time.
 
Alpha Flight/Omega Flight? Same deal. I can't even remember how many Flight relaunches there have been, now...
 
The Champions ALMOST made a comeback, which ended-up being "The Order". See also, "The Failure". I believe that the solo members of the group either belong solo like Herc and Ghost Rider, or belong with the teams they're on (Iceman, Angel, Black Widow). They had their time in the sun as a group...moving on...
 
The Agents of Atlas deserves to be up there with Avengers and X-Men, but probably never will be because not enough people are giving it a chance. Hopefully that will change once they re-launch as an "X-Men" back-up feature, but we'll see...
 
MI:13 was another group with unlimited potential, but again, fans are just too scared it seems to try something new, as it was canceled after a year. 
 
So to answer your question as to WHY there aren't any other teams? The fans are the reason, apparently. People speak with their dollars, and the majority don't WANT to branch-out; they'd be happier with another X-Book, something familiar, than risk something new. It sucks, terribly, but until that train of thought derails, we're all stuck with it.

#12 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio
@RaptorFratBoy said:
"The Agents of Atlas deserves to be up there with Avengers and X-Men, but probably never will be because not enough people are giving it a chance. "
Totally agree. Agents of Atlas are awesome.
#13 Posted by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio
@RaptorFratBoy: I don't think it's the readers but the writers who are assigned these books. They never get the tip tier people. Just the new-bees, the never-was and the has-beens. Even the bad writers who are some how popular (Jeph Loeb) don't get the titles. Imagine how well The Champions would be received if someone like Bendis was working on them. Or Millar on the Defenders.
#14 Posted by Nova`Prime` (4165 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Hercules said:
" @RaptorFratBoy: I don't think it's the readers but the writers who are assigned these books. They never get the tip tier people. Just the new-bees, the never-was and the has-beens. Even the bad writers who are some how popular (Jeph Loeb) don't get the titles. Imagine how well The Champions would be received if someone like Bendis was working on them. Or Millar on the Defenders. "
Bendis is a hack of a writer, all of his characters are stilled and one dimensional for the most part. I would rather see young and hungry writers given a chance with a team like the Avengers inject some fresh life into it. Instead Joe Q gives his best friend Bendis all the top tier stuff and he usually writes it into the ground, not as bad as Loeb, but tell me with a straight face Bendis does justice to Moonstone's character.
#15 Posted by RaptorFratBoy (550 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Hercules: The Defenders were recently given a chance with the superstar team of Giffen & Maguire a few years ago, and it failed. "The Last Defenders" that showed-up just prior to Dark Reign, also failed. Sometimes it's just that there isn't any interest. "The Order" was done by Matt Fraction, superstar writer. Failed. Agents of Atlas, done by Jeff Parker, slowly failing. MI:13, done by Paul Cornell, done and gone. More and more examples that yeah, it's probably just the fact that mainstream fans aren't ready for new teams. Wanna know why?
 
 - No cartoon, movie, or action figures. Just like with "He-Man" and "TMNT", the populace NEED their tie-ins to care about a comic book, period. We are loud and we are passionate, but we are few; Internet comic fans just can't support a few great comics on their own (when they belong to a major company, anyway). 
 
"Guardians Of The Galaxy", thank god, is still around but only because Marvel has enough faith in the DnA-created cosmic landscape, and sales boost on that book every year when the cross-over happens. However, I fear it's not long for this world...and that really hurts. I love that team.
 
@Nova`Prime`: K, you're right in saying what you feel about Bendis and whoever else, but the FACTS are that his books sell more, usually about three-times as much, as any of the afore-mentioned books above. Your personal feelings notwithstanding, BMB & Co. are SUCCESSFUL; that's why they get the top-tier books, whether you like it or not. Like I said, we are few, they are many, and THEY are buying those books. When King Herc up there said "Champions" and "Defenders" would benefit from Bendis and Millar, he was absolutely correct. There's no-names, there's recognizable names, and there's superstars like Bendis, Millar, and Loeb; Again, whether you personally agree with that notion or not, well...there's at least 100,000 other people out there who think otherwise, and are voting with their dollars, as Joe Q likes to say. 
 
You can argue about the correct characterization of friggin' Moonstone until you're blue in the face (because I'm CERTAIN more than three people care enough to notice, right?), but the proof is in the puddin'. Blind hatred does nobody any good.
#16 Posted by King Hercules (1160 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nova`Prime`: I think Bendis is a good writer. He seems to go deeper into the character and just go for the surface of just there powers and abilities like writers such as Loeb does. Bendis shows relationships and how personalities can tear a team apart.

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