Even More Cancellations and Conclusions

#1 Edited by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

Along with Iron Man 2.0, Alpha Flight, X-23 and Destroyers, PunisherMax is reaching the end of the road, although according to Jason Aaron this was the natural concluding point. Black Panther is also cancelled. The writing seems to be on the wall for most titles in that general sales range. They seem to be pacing the cancellation announcements, rather bizarrely... so once again the question must be asked... which title will get the cut next? If my general tracking is correct, Marvel has about 35 or so ongoing titles still running... I might break them down shortly...

For some reason the Marvel forum tagging didn't work. Oh well.

#2 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33314 posts) - - Show Bio

wow.. I'll admit I'm a little scared

#3 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

So here is a my quick breakdown of how titles are sitting according to groups and such.

Avengers Titles (4): Avengers, New Avengers, Secret Avengers, Avengers Academy

Hulk (2): Incredible Hulk, Hulk

Thor (2): Journey Into Mystery, Mighty Thor

Cap (2): Captain America, Cap & Bucky, Winter Soldier

Invincible Iron Man

Spider-Man (4): Amazing Spider-Man, Avenging Spider-Man, Venom, Scarlet Spider

Deadpool (2): Deadpool, Deapool Max 2

F4 (2): Fantasic Four, FF

X-Men Titles (9): Astonishing X-Men, Generation Hope, New Mutants, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, W&TX, X-Factor, X-Men, Legacy

Wolverine (2): Wolverine, Dark Wolverine

Other Teams (2): Defenders, Thunderbolts

Other Heroes (4): Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, Punisher

Ultimate Titles (3): Spidey, Ultimates, X-Men

(Also two 'kids' titles, Super-Heroes and Spider-Man)

I wasn't sure if Winter Soldier or Scarlet Spider were ongoing... anyone know?

#4 Posted by Dommed_Cannon (499 posts) - - Show Bio

This is what happens when you constantly make events. People stop caring about individual stories, or assume everything is a tie in comic.

#5 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, so much for that list, mark Ghost Rider off as well, it is gone.

#6 Posted by Mercy_ (92695 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist: Winter Soldier's an ongoing.

Moderator
#7 Posted by Afro_Warrior (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

So that leaves Avengers Academy, Generation Hope and Daken as the only comics selling below 30,000 if i'm correct.

This almost feels spur of the moment to me, since it makes no sense to string out these cancellations like they are doing.

I really have no idea whats going on at Marvel anymore.

#8 Posted by Benzo (621 posts) - - Show Bio

If they cancel X-factor, I am officially done with Marvel!

#9 Posted by Demonturtle (455 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

Well, so much for that list, mark Ghost Rider off as well, it is gone.

Their cancelling Ghost Rider?!!? Wow, didnt see that one coming! I havent followed it very close, but its one of the iconic characters!

#10 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@Afro_Warrior: Below 30k comics for October were: Journey Into Mystery, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Punsiher, Hulk, New Mutants, Thunderbolts, X-Factor, Avengers Academy, Dark Wolverine and Generation Hope. (And Deadpool Max 2, although I think that is a mini, not ongoing...)

#11 Posted by Demonturtle (455 posts) - - Show Bio

Since their dropping all these titles, what (I fear to ask) will they be replacing them with?

#12 Posted by Afro_Warrior (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist: No idea what i'm thinking of then.

Do you have a list of the Marvel sales for October?

#13 Posted by Trodorne (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the strange thing about black panther. Its numbers were that of Daredevil: Man without fear. and they cancel it as soon as Matt comes back with a new daredevil title. X-men Legacy used to be the X-men title back from the 90's then at some point they felt to call it legacy and start up a new x-men title. so if anything, cut X-men. Cut New Avengers and maybe secret avengers, Astonishing X-men, Fantastic Four (i mean come on it was boring in the first place and Future foundations is so much better), Make Avenging Spider-man a mini series and only have Red Hulk in his series, New Mutants can go.

#14 Edited by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup, they're up at ICV2... I have all ongoing sales set up in an excel document... which will let me do... THIS. Ordered by ascending. If a title multi-shipped, I think the included number is the most recent issue's sales.

Generation Hope18424
Daken: Dark Wolverine19472
Avengers Academy23412
X-Factor23569
Thunderbolts23712
New Mutants25364
Hulk25514
The Punisher25847
Moon Knight27493
Deadpool27552
Journey Into Mystery27701
Captain America and Bucky32041
Venom32266
Astonishing X-Men32620
X-Men Legacy38070
Invincible Iron Man38721
Wolverine39405
Daredevil39413
Ultimate Comics Ultimates40792
X-Men40906
Secret Avengers43280
The Mighty Thor44,017
Ultimate Comics X-Men44399
FF48433
Uncanny X-Force52398
Ultimate Comics Spider-Man52521
Captain America54413
New Avengers55732
Avengers58897
Amazing Spider-Man59426
Wolverine & The X-Men95855
Incredible Hulk106,472

Ah, and as a note these are the non-cancelled ongoings. I like writing about sales though, so if you ever need more, you need only ask. I also occasionally write up blog stuff on sales figures.

#15 Posted by moviegeek17 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

when did they announce black panther's cancellation? I just jumped onto the book?

#16 Posted by Demonturtle (455 posts) - - Show Bio

Surprised Generation Hope is so low. Doesnt mean they will cancel it though, they have too many plans for Hope!

#17 Posted by TheCheeseStabber (8096 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist: didnt they just start that bk up??? o.O

I love Black Panther D; im like close to tears an Iron Man 2.0 ;[

#18 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

They announced BP's cancellation today.

Generation Hope also received a temporary boost from Schism which will likely be replicated by Regenesis, again hoping (ha, pun intended) to stick the landing.

Further note is that of the remaining ongoing series, 60% are $3.99. The best selling $2.99 comic is FF. A majority of the $2.99ers are at the bottom of the list.

#19 Posted by Demonturtle (455 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

They announced BP's cancellation today.

Generation Hope also received a temporary boost from Schism which will likely be replicated by Regenesis, again hoping (ha, pun intended) to stick the landing.

Further note is that of the remaining ongoing series, 60% are $3.99. The best selling $2.99 comic is FF. A majority of the $2.99ers are at the bottom of the list.

It's sad that the only books that are doing well are one that cost more! How does that work?

#20 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@Demonturtle: Well, Marvel puts the $3.99 on the ones they know will sell well, to maximize their profit... the fact they cost more isn't the reason why it sells better but rather the other way around... they sell better, so they cost more. At the same time, those at the higher sales end are also (for some part) more recent titles, and nearly all recently released series have a sales point of $3.99.

#21 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

Along with Iron Man 2.0, Alpha Flight, X-23 and Destroyers, PunisherMax is reaching the end of the road, although according to Jason Aaron this was the natural concluding point. Black Panther is also cancelled. The writing seems to be on the wall for most titles in that general sales range. They seem to be pacing the cancellation announcements, rather bizarrely... so once again the question must be asked... which title will get the cut next? If my general tracking is correct, Marvel has about 35 or so ongoing titles still running... I might break them down shortly...

For some reason the Marvel forum tagging didn't work. Oh well.

You lie.

You have to lie.

I won't except this as anything but a lie :(.

#22 Posted by Afro_Warrior (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist: Thanks for that, i'll check out ICV2 as well.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Daken cancelled next with the way things are going now.

The solicits for Daken #19 call it the conclusion to its current Claws Killer Saga and issue #20 is a stand alone, so if its sales don't start to see an improvement, this would provide the perfect opportunity to cut it.

#23 Posted by Demonturtle (455 posts) - - Show Bio

I know that there is a lot of titles going on right now, and that a lot of them are not doing so hot! But doesn't this seem like a drastic move by Marvel to cut so many titles! It's like their cleaning all the crap out of their basement. Im really terriffed at what will be chaopped next, or scarier yet...........what they will bring in to replace it!

#24 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher: MAX should have ended when Garth Ennis literally wrote Punisher's last days out in "Punisher: MAX: THE END".

#25 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33314 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123 said:

Punisher: MAX should have ended when Garth Ennis literally wrote Punisher's last days out in "Punisher: MAX: THE END".

Yea I'll agree with this.
#26 Edited by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: :-( Sorry... blame the site that broke it! The full listing for the issue:

BLACK PANTHER: THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN ALIVE #529

DAVID LISS (W)

SHAWN MARTINBROUGH (A)

COVER BY FRANCESCO FRANCAVILLA

• Kingpin vs. T’Challa in this status-quo changing series finale!

• Guest-starring: Lady Bullseye! Typhoid Mary! Falcon! Luke Cage!

32 PGS./Rated T+ …$2.99

@Afro_Warrior: It may be heading towards the tunnel light, but not quite yet... issue #21's is the following:

DAKEN: DARK WOLVERINE #21

ROB WILLIAMS (W) • ALESSANDRO VITTI (A) • COVER BY GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI

• Issue one of the story the series has been leading up to!

• Daken sets out to get his revenge on the man he hates most in the world: Wolverine. And if the whole Marvel Universe has to bleed for that to happen then that’s just fine.

32 PGS./Parental Advisory …$2.99

So perhaps the final arc, but not an immediate cancel.

A further amendment to all of the reductions is the alteration of the Villains for Hire title from 5 to 4 issues. Not really world-shattering news, but even the 5 issue minis are being cut down.

#27 Posted by WarMachineMarkV (1214 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

Yup, they're up at ICV2... I have all ongoing sales set up in an excel document... which will let me do... THIS. Ordered by ascending. If a title multi-shipped, I think the included number is the most recent issue's sales.

Generation Hope18424
Daken: Dark Wolverine19472
Avengers Academy23412
X-Factor23569
Thunderbolts23712
New Mutants25364
Hulk25514
The Punisher25847
Moon Knight27493
Deadpool27552
Journey Into Mystery27701
Captain America and Bucky32041
Venom32266
Astonishing X-Men32620
X-Men Legacy38070
Invincible Iron Man38721
Wolverine39405
Daredevil39413
Ultimate Comics Ultimates40792
X-Men40906
Secret Avengers43280
The Mighty Thor44,017
Ultimate Comics X-Men44399
FF48433
Uncanny X-Force52398
Ultimate Comics Spider-Man52521
Captain America54413
New Avengers55732
Avengers58897
Amazing Spider-Man59426
Wolverine & The X-Men95855
Incredible Hulk106,472

Ah, and as a note these are the non-cancelled ongoings. I like writing about sales though, so if you ever need more, you need only ask. I also occasionally write up blog stuff on sales figure

Generation Hope

- This one will be given a little more time after they just added Pixie to the team and they hope fans of her will bolster the title enough to be worth keeping around. Being an X-Title it will get more leeway than one outside the franchise.

Daken: Dark Wolverine

- If X-23 went away this title shouldn't be far behind. Maybe they send him over to the Thunderbolts.

Avengers Academy

- They just added a whole slew of new characters and are really pouring on the guest stars to try to make this work, I think it's safe for the near future unless sales really tumble.

X-Factor

- As long as it stays around 25k I think it's pretty safe. Everyone likes the fact that the book is not constantly tied to the rest of the X-books, but that also hurts it on the sales front.

Thunderbolts

- This title seems to have completely lost its way with change after change, I would not be shocked if it got the ax.

- I think everything else is pretty safe for the moment but there are a lot of titles on that list that have very little wiggle room before they are on life support

- Marvel needs a lot of work and I hope they do not just weed out the low sellers and continue with business as usual.

#28 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@ScarlettAssassin said:

I am pretty sure Daken will be next off that list.

I cannot even deal with the fact X-23 is cancelled. Such a shame.

Yeah, still scratching my head as to why Daken is still going while X-23 got her series cut. -.- So frustrating.

#29 Posted by jerfro23 (97 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken should just get the axe he really dosent deserve tittle

#30 Posted by Baddamdog (2223 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the new 52 has really shaken Marvel up. For as long as I can remember, Marvel consistently beat DC in the monthly earnings and recently DC have launched this huge, news breaking reboot and have slain Marvel recently. I think Marvel are cutting their fat and the announcement of so many cancelled titles in the space of two weeks just shows how freaked out they are.

#31 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

Not pleased to lose one or two that have been cut, but and I'm sure someone already mentioned it, but it's a debatable but notable thing to point out that most that where are second to third string books in a family to a main title and character (who usually has more than one titles to star in as is) by an overall market look. Spin-offs generally have problems especially when faced with their big sister hogging all the food as it were, and an already tight budgeted and frugal customer base who themselves has more to focus their resources on then beloved comics and has to at one point or another make cuts and pick what they will be reading and not be reading. Logic states most will favor the character or title they first followed, the more popular of the two overall and the one that led them to the spin-off to begin with. Compact this with this eras current downward sales trend (also reasoning the suddenness of it, DC " suddenly " changed their whole line-up to illustrate where the market actually stands right now) and most of the puzzle puts together. There will be more endings, then again despite anything I've said being present, if it weren't there would be. Essentially, we've been (and still sort of are) spoiled in the amount of choices we had available to us in the first place.

#32 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

This is not good. If Marvel keeps on cancelling most of their titles, then who knows what will become of Marvel in the long run if they don't have anymore series left to pick up the pace in the sales. Or even worse, they might try to replace most of the titles with something new.

#33 Posted by The Impersonator (5483 posts) - - Show Bio

Scope Creep. This is the reason why several comic book series are getting cancelled. The writers and artists are making new projects while they're trying to work on the current series. Marvel is not finishing their series on time. Tons of workload is affecting their schedules. The project management is very poor. They need to focus on the titles which are selling well. They really don't need to come up with new projects during the success of their current ongoing titles.

#34 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5858 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Impersonator said:

Scope Creep. This is the reason why several comic book series are getting cancelled. The writers and artists are making new projects while they're trying to work on the current series. Marvel is not finishing their series on time. Tons of workload is affecting their schedules. The project management is very poor. They need to focus on the titles which are selling well. They really don't need to come up with new projects during the success of their current ongoing titles.

I totally agree with you! Marvel needs to stop making so many separate titles and start concentrating on the titles that are selling well so that way, they won't have to resort to cancelling so many titles when the sales are low. If they need a new series by then, then they can make a new series if the older series fails in the sales.

#35 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baddamdog: That is actually my biggest worry right now... while I place myself more in Camp DC than Marvel, I still mark myself as a support even at the worst of times... I worry that Marvel's approach of comparing themselves to DC and placing value only on the Top Dog spot on sales and units is not healthy for their company or the comics industry as a whole. While it could be faked, I believe the DC reps when they say that at the end of the day their priority is to increase their line, not take the share. I'm afraid Marvel's approach is to cut these lower selling titles, launch new #1s for the initial sales... let them drift five issues and then either cancel, rename or renumber them in an endless repeating cycle. It is really, really harmful to the quality of some of these books, and certainly for the line as a whole. I get that it is a business and they want to strike hot properties and fade out lesser sellers... but the market is more sophisticated than that... fan cannot live by #1s and "buythisnow omgmajorevent" books alone.

I'm also exhausted by the double shipping. I really am. It makes it hard to budget for their books, hard to keep an enjoyable pace in reading them... and really feels like they're just trying to push out books to squeeze the bucks. Again, I get they're a business... but a business of entertainment. When we say "OMG I can't wait another month for the next issue of this book!" that thrill of being forced to wait is sometimes a good thing... and if we got weekly issues of all of our favorite titles... we'd become spoiled and bored with them, we'd be completely broke and we'd also be completely limited in the range of our comics exposure. Amazing's triple and double shipping was an acceptable exception, as would be a purposefully (single) weekly title... but having so many books double or even triple ship in a month... especially since they can't maintain their shipping schedules or their sources of information (such as the ever frustrating comics catalog on their site)... we shouldn't be tired just trying to decide what we're going to read...

@The Impersonator: I agree with many of those reasons rather strongly... and it really needs to be a message communicated to them... but as long as they hold the "vote with your dollar" mentality that has carried the last 5 years of both Marvel sales and discussion, I have no idea how that can get across. For one thing, it doesn't work, even in the slightest. The approach also really carries the notion that the end justifies the means... as long as they get big sales, it is okay to put out poor, rushed material full of gimmicks and manipulations... and the worst part is that they reach the same sales figures as quality comics and thus become entirely indistinguishable.

I've sent e-mails, written letters, attempted to communicate in person at conventions (by some ignored, some treated with condescension and some with a degree of helpless empathy) and nothing works. For those that agree that there is something wrong here... we need to figure out the next step in communicating these frustrations.

Again I look back to the breakdown of where the titles are at... I get the sales bit on it... but is there no better alternative than triple stacking on the top properties and then double shipping so we end up with a month of 22 X-based titles? February has 22! I get that Regenesis is your big push, but 22 X issues?

Sorry for the long, (but I feel necessary) evaluation.

#36 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio

Thank all that is good that they are cancelling Black Panther. GET DAVID AWAY from his character for the rest of his life.

Sadly I don't see him getting a solo title for QUITE some time after this. David Liss is horrible.

#37 Posted by The Poet (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry to hear Marvel is canceling titles...as a DC fan I know how it is...

oh, and also:

Moderator
#38 Posted by The Impersonator (5483 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Poet said:

Sorry to hear Marvel is canceling titles...as a DC fan I know how it is...

oh, and also:

Lol! I know what you mean. Another one bites the dust. Another cancellation.

Anyways, I really missed Mercury. He's my favorite singer who sang the best opening song for the Highlander series.

#39 Posted by jcj145 (184 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait... When did they announce they were canceling Ghost Rider?!?! Its on my pull list and while not my favorite (Uncanny X-Force) I have been enjoying it a lot!!

This sucks, is there a reason for any of this? The loss of Black Panther and Iron Man 2.0 the only Marvel titles starring a black male lead, X-23 their only solo female title, and Ghost Rider one of their only supernatural titles. It seems to me Marvel is regressing and DECREASING the diversity in their individual titles in favor of more generic groups i.e. the X-Men families, Avengers families, and Spiderman families. While I love the X-Men is it necessary to have 9 similar titles over unique titles like Ghost Rider and Black Panther? Lately Marvel has just left me shaking my head in confussion

#40 Posted by Demonturtle (455 posts) - - Show Bio

Obviously quality has left and quantity has taken over. Wolverine is my favorite character and I love a lot of the things he's in, but that said..............he's in to much! Thats how most of Marvel's stuff is, everyone is in multiple places. Im unemployed right now and can only get 1 book on a consistent basis. I have always loved Marvel's crossovers (Xcutioners Song was my first and still favorite), but I cant keep up with them all. It used to be the crossovers were just focused on that brand (X-Men, Avengers, Spidey) so even if you didnt collect every title normally, it wasnt to hard to get a couple extra issues a week. Now every crossover is multiple platforms and a huge amount of titles. I wish Marvel would focus on their characters and stories, not how many issues can we cram into the next crossover!

#41 Posted by MatKrenz (1233 posts) - - Show Bio

I swear to frig if they cancel X-Factor I am done with them, maybe not completely with only Venom but they will have to make up really badly to get me back seriously.

#42 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7297 posts) - - Show Bio

If they don't manage to turn Astonishing around after this next arc then I'm guessing it's going to be the next victim.

#43 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@jcj145: I agree, it is really frustrating with the limitations on the diversity... while sometimes multiple titles for a shared concept (X-Men, Avengers) might be acceptable... the quantity within those examples and the quantity of properties that are doubling up is absolutely crazy-driving. The further reduction of classified diversity (females, race) is one mark beyond that!

@MatKrenz: I think X-Force has enough support, units, dollars and fans-wise to stick around, and even seems to have some editorial cushion behind it as an extra stack. If it happens you can call me on it, but I'm saying X-Force is quite safe.

And this articulation from Marvel staple Bob Layton highlights what I feared was the inner working motivation at Marvel right now:

Speaking of Marvel, today… I finished the last page on the fourth and final issue of my “Iron Man Forever” mini-series. Sad to say, this will be my last assignment for Marvel Comics. Not that I hate them, or think that its a horrible place, but it’s simply not the same Marvel I enjoyed working for during most of my career. It’s clear to me that it’s time to move on.

To clarify my last statement, my decision is more about individual expression and to not become a contributor to “units sold”. The pervasive corporate atmosphere felt like the #1 goal was to crank out grist for the stockholder mill. In other words, it seemed to me that pumping out endless, poorly conceived mini-series to make sales figures has become that driving force at Marvel/Mouse. To confess, in no way, shape or form does this last Iron Man mini-series resemble what David Michelinie and I had intended it to be. Christ, we went through two editorial teams and it took over a year just to get the four measly issues to be the mess that it currently is. The story was edited and approved by a faceless committee, then run past the sales department for its approval. The sales department? Really? Well, my primary concern as a storyteller is not assuring that the Disney corporation makes its quarterly projections. More power to them, but that not why I got into the comic field. As much as I love Iron Man (and all of my fans worldwide), I feel it is impossible to do the kind of stories you expect from me in the current situation.

Edward James Olmos recent gave me some sage advice over dinner. When describing my frustration over the situation at Marvel, he leaned over and said: “What’s one more friggin’ Iron Man mini-series going to contribute to your 35 year legacy?”

And… I realized that he was right.

#44 Posted by cody1984 (1279 posts) - - Show Bio

Well apparently Daken has just been cancelled as well.

Anyway, looking at this as a whole I'd say this has to with economics more than anything else and that I can't blame marvel for doing this. When you have a product that you have to sell that is only roughly 20 pages for $3.99 or $2.99 in an economy that is not doing very well things are going to have to get chopped. Being honest comics are just to expensive for what you actually get. If you buy 20 comics that are $3.99 a pop you spent $79.80 for comics before sales tax is applied. So 20 comics is running you almost a hundred bucks. That's almost a day's pay for quite a few folks right now with the economy being bad and that isn't good. The comic book industry as a whole has been hurting for quite a while now and it hasn't been getting better. The only way I see these companies offering more titles is if they go almost entirely digital. You can buy a song on iTunes for $0.99 then you should be able to buy a 20 something paged comic for $0.99

#45 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Wolverine.
  • Captain America
  • Venon
  • Ultimate Spider-Man

The only books I will pick up from Marvel for a while until it gets its things together.

#46 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

Just saw the news on Daken as well... it doesn't really seem to be a positive sign for diversity at Marvel with the cancellation of the only two females leads, the only two African-American leads (exempting the utlimate-verse) and the only LGBT lead. I thought for sure this trend must've hit the end.

We're now down to 38 titles, 33 of which are running now (5 new launches upcoming), and only 15 $2.99ers left.

The new bottom sellers list goes: Generation Hope, Avengers Academy, X-Factor, Thunderbolts, New Mutants, Hulk, Punisher, Moon Knight, Deadpool, Journey Into Mystery to round out the bottom 10. With the pattern as it stands so far... I'd certainly say that we can mark a worry or two there. Even if they have an arc left... it certainly seems like barring a big boost... *sigh*

#47 Posted by xfiles2099 (51 posts) - - Show Bio

I was dissapointed to hear X-23 and Heroes for Hire getting the axe

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