Do you like how Marvel is continously turning Villans into heros?

#1 Posted by Airstrike (190 posts) - - Show Bio

It has always been done throughout the history of Marvel history but in the past 8 years they are like Walmart shoppers on Black Friday.  Avengers have done it with Hawkeye(really weak example), Swordsman, Wonderman, Vision, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Sandman.  Out of that list I would say only Swordsman, Sandman and Wonder Man were true criminals and in my opinion should have been left criminals.  I think to this day Wonder Man, Sandman and Vision make better criminals than Heroes.  It has been done to just about every Heroes villians they have now become the good guys.  Once all the villians of the X-man have now fought beside them; Sabertooth, Juggernaut, Magneto, Mystique, Deadpool, Emma Frost, Exodus and etc.  Then before you know it they take the good guys and turn them into villians; Cannonball, magma, moonstar and sunspot to name a few.

Then you have the whole Thunderbolt thing!  I loved the original volume of the series and even the second until everyone and their brother was turning over a new leaf.  I could see some small timers but Bullseye, Green Goblin, Dr. Oct, Taskmaster, Radioactive Man, Wrecking Crew, Serpent Society, u-foes, whirlwind, solar.  The registration Act is all but forgotten storyline in Marvel U. and you have all these good/great villians they overkilled by putting on the Thunderbolts.  I have to admit I haven't read the series in about 2 and half years but my issue isn't with the series it is with making villians into heroes.  I haven't seen Marvel turning out that many great new villians or new heroes.  What do we do we have them switch sides or bring them back from the dead or kill them off. 

Why can't they let the villians stay villians?  I didn't have a problem with the a few but it is out of control.  I know there are a lot more out there but I don't buy 1/5 of the comics I use to for numerous reasons.  Let the villians be villians and the heroes be heroes, once and a while you could have a team for some strange reason but quit trying to rewrite history!  I am curious to see what the rest of the comic fans think about this. 

#2 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

people change

Moderator
#3 Posted by Oluf_Von_Host_Museum (84677 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Taskmaster off the Thuderbolts now? Besides he's always been more of a mercenary then a classic villain.

Anyway I dont have a problem with it, it shows depth. Characters like Bullseye where forced to join, he never turned hero (did you see what he did to Jack Flag?)

Radioactive Man was a villain like in his first appearance. But he's always been part of that Thuderbolts team that straddled the line between anti-heroes/heroes/villains.

But really its not like it just happens. They take the time (in most cases) to show the transition. Theres usually a reason why the X-Villains are fighting along side the X-Men. I love Emma as a good guy. She sucked as a villain. Same with Juggernaut. Most of the others aren't really villains in my opinion minus Sabretooth. And even then he was only a good guy when A. They tampered with his head, and B. When he needed protection from The Children of the Vault.

Seems however that Marvel is the main company that employs this tactic. But I've never had a problem with it. Death Gambit was the sh!t.

Moderator
#4 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"people change"
They do?
#5 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio
mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"people change"
They do?
"

everyday
Moderator
#6 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"people change"
They do?
"

everyday"
You my friend, are an exception.
#7 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio
mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"people change"
They do?
"

everyday"
You my friend, are an exception.
"

i dont get it
Moderator
#8 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"people change"
They do?
"

everyday"
You my friend, are an exception.
"

i dont get it"
What I mean is you don't seem to change.
#9 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

well why would i, i'm perfect

remember?

Moderator
#10 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"well why would i, i'm perfect

remember?"
Perfect at dying.
#11 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

only happens around you.

i wonder why

Moderator
#12 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"only happens around you.

i wonder why"
You mean it doesn't happen around other people?
#13 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

never

Moderator
#14 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"never"
You are the only person that I know that dies on a regular basis.
#15 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

babs does too.

she's like my twin

Moderator
#16 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"babs does too.

she's like my twin"
Oh, really?
#17 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio

si

Moderator
#18 Posted by mantoid (2305 posts) - - Show Bio
pixelized said:
"si"
"Si" in spanish means "if." You must put an accent over the "i" to make it mean "yes." Sí.
#19 Posted by fesak (7045 posts) - - Show Bio
Airstrike said:
"It has always been done throughout the history of Marvel history but in the past 8 years they are like Walmart shoppers on Black Friday.  Avengers have done it with Hawkeye(really weak example), Swordsman, Wonderman, Vision, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Sandman.  Out of that list I would say only Swordsman, Sandman and Wonder Man were true criminals and in my opinion should have been left criminals.  I think to this day Wonder Man, Sandman and Vision make better criminals than Heroes.  It has been done to just about every Heroes villians they have now become the good guys.  Once all the villians of the X-man have now fought beside them; Sabertooth, Juggernaut, Magneto, Mystique, Deadpool, Emma Frost, Exodus and etc.  Then before you know it they take the good guys and turn them into villians; Cannonball, magma, moonstar and sunspot to name a few.

Then you have the whole Thunderbolt thing!  I loved the original volume of the series and even the second until everyone and their brother was turning over a new leaf.  I could see some small timers but Bullseye, Green Goblin, Dr. Oct, Taskmaster, Radioactive Man, Wrecking Crew, Serpent Society, u-foes, whirlwind, solar.  The registration Act is all but forgotten storyline in Marvel U. and you have all these good/great villians they overkilled by putting on the Thunderbolts.  I have to admit I haven't read the series in about 2 and half years but my issue isn't with the series it is with making villians into heroes.  I haven't seen Marvel turning out that many great new villians or new heroes.  What do we do we have them switch sides or bring them back from the dead or kill them off. 

Why can't they let the villians stay villians?  I didn't have a problem with the a few but it is out of control.  I know there are a lot more out there but I don't buy 1/5 of the comics I use to for numerous reasons.  Let the villians be villians and the heroes be heroes, once and a while you could have a team for some strange reason but quit trying to rewrite history!  I am curious to see what the rest of the comic fans think about this. "
Good post.

Rogue and Gambit also started out on the wrong side. The former new Mutants almost certainly has not suddenly became evil, we're promised a huge plot "twist" on that story that everyone already knows anyway.

The Thunderbolts used to be about former villains actually wanting to redeem themselves. Now half of them is villains forced to work as heroes, i don't think anyone believes Bullseye will reform anytime.

Also i don't think Taskmaster will become a hero anytime soon, he just works for the one that gives him the biggest paycheck, which atm is the Initiative.

I see your point about the villains, they will soon run out if they're going to keep making heroes of them. I would actually want to see more heroes turning (permanently) into villains. Rogue for example would make a really good villain.
Moderator
#20 Posted by Ebony Bishop (767 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the main point that Marvel is trying to make is the old Darth Vader idea -- there's good in everyone, just really deep down in some people. But it's not like they do it the same for everyone. The current Thunderbolts are a good example. Like Gambler said, Bullseye is there against his will, only hoping to kill people. Norman Osborne does it for the power. Venom wanted the pardon, and the regular job -- but he's certainly not gone good. He's vicious, and still killing people.

Besides, if the character is cool, and people like them, it's hard to keep them a villain all the time for one main reason -- the villain always loses. How cool could a character be if they never won? At least by becoming good, even if only temporarily, they show how they can kick some butt, and not ruin the storyline.

#21 Posted by pixelized (62882 posts) - - Show Bio
mantoid said:
"pixelized said:
"si"
"Si" in spanish means "if." You must put an accent over the "i" to make it mean "yes." Sí. "
pues no puedo poner un accento....lo siento
Moderator
#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

If you'd actually been reading Thunderbolts you would know that Songbird and Penance are possibly the only 2 ex-villians who are actually trying to do good.Bullseye isn't a hero...he still kills people,Norman still kills people and now he's trying to kill his own team mates.Alot of characters are still bad they are just seem to be on the right side because of circumstance.Take Gargan for instance...he's not a good guy,he's registered as a hero but he eats people all the time...he's in it for the money and to have the chance to beat the crap out of second rate heroes who won't register.

Moderator
#23 Posted by Leroy (128 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read some Thunderbolts comics but couldn't get into the series. One of them I read was the civil war TPB where there seemed to countless members, so if I can find another trade from the series I'll try it again. The concept was interesting to me, but I'd rather see a team that I can get to know with characters I like.


I've never really liked Emma Frost.

Deadpool is one of my all time favorites.
#24 Posted by Airstrike (190 posts) - - Show Bio

When I did read Thunderbolts Atlas and Beetle/Mach-# were also trying to do good but I stated in my post that I haven't read them in a couple of years and the post wasn't really about the Thunderbolts, themselves, it was Marvels fixation with the process of having villians convert over to heroes.  I do think so of the converts over the years have worked but my point is that recently it has been a flood.  The Registration excuse is a wash, though.  How many times have the Avengers or members of the Avengers let unregistered heroes walk.  There was the whole Venom virus thing and when they ganged up in the New Avenger Annual that is just two examples I can name and I only buy three Marvel titles a month any more.  I agree Bullseye isn't a hero but my problem is with the concept.

For Example, Bullseye, A mass murder/assasin in the comic world and now Marvel is saying everything is forgivin'  and he is on the side of the law if he hunts down Heroes that aren't registering.  What kind image is that setting that if you break the real laws of America there are no consequences?  Before they had some of the less villians like Scarlet Witch and Quick silver, when they were just kids and and Magneto sucked them into a life of crime, the system gave them a second chance.  I guess they just do give much thought into the villians when they throw them to the other side.

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