Marvel NOW! is a Marvel relaunch that began in October 2012. It brought some major changes to the Marvel Universe and launched many new ongoing series from some of the biggest names in the business.
I completely disagree. The fact that she is CAPTAIN MARVEL indicates not only can she too, a woman, become a CAPTAIN, but that her gender isn't something she uses to define herself. Sure she is a lady, but she's a CAPTAIN FIRST; and in a man's world, that's saying something.
Too bad too, you're missing out on an exceptional series because of one word. "Ms."
I see what you're saying, I just feel that it's a bit odd that Marvel believes that the only way she can be successful is by taking away the name that defined her as a female comic book character and instead felt that she could only sell comics by giving her not just a new name, but a name which originally belonged to a MALE superhero first. I figured that if Marvel really wanted to push their female characters, like many fans want them too, then instead of hiding them behind titles that previously belonged to male characters, wouldn't it make more sense to push a her original title, one that many fans already know, one that tells readers right off the bat that yes this is a female character, who is able to stand next to male heroes like Iron Man and Spider-Man, but yet isn't afraid to be called "Ms."? I just really don't see what was wrong with the title of Ms. Marvel? I liked it and thought that it made her character stand out much more, not just as a superhero, but as a strong, independent woman; one which many female readers could look to as a great role model who embraces the fact that she's a woman and isn't ashamed of it.
I agree with War Killer. Babs makes a great point about her name and her gender defining who she is as character but at the same time, "Captain Marvel" is another characters name, a character that will always be identified by that name. Carol is the 2nd character to use the name "Captain Marvel" since Dark Reign, the 5th overall, and the 3rd female to use that title. I think it's safe to say "Ms.Marvel" was more unique to her and something of her own. I think the lack of uniqueness when it comes to female characters hurts more than it helps with Marvel characters. They haven't been able to keep 1 female superhero comic afloat yet. Ms.Marvel,She-Hulk,Silver Sable,Elektra,the list goes on..all failed. Maybe the reason is most female characters are just a female version of an already popular male character and I think that same reasoning hurts minority characters as well. Most of them aren't unique and you don't see that with most of Marvel popular characters. Iron Man is nothing like Captain America, Thor is nothing like Hulk, Punisher is nothing like Ghost Rider, Daredevil is nothing like Wolverine etc but female characters and minority characters suffer from the lack of uniqueness and diversity and those have always been the characters that Marvel has failed to sell, so that's why I agree with War Killer. Ms.Marvel isn't very unique in creation there are characters that are similar to her in the Marvel Universe, but at the very least she should be taking responsibility for building up her own name, not the name of another character.
Marvel is certainly pushing out more female centric comic books but the question remains, will any of them stick? Will any of them find a permanent place in their comic line and survive any future recoils (relaunches/reboots)?
That is something DC can (almost) guarantee for Supergirl, Batgirl, Wonder Woman and Birds of Prey (Batwoman remains to be seen)
Still I hope at least Captain Marvel will have a good long run, so far so good. And good luck to the new female titles ^_^
As I look thought this discussion. I'm rather bemused that the strongest complaint about this change for Carol Danvers being a "name" and not the contents. It's a largely superficial issue that is keeping some of you from reading a story about a character that you say you care about. That's a particularly bizarre line in the sand to draw. It's as if you're looking for a reason to avoid it. Her powers were derived from her connection with the original Captain Marvel, right?
Names in comics are nebulous at best. Especially the superhero titles. "Captain" is no ones name - - unless someone's parents didn't think much of them. It's a rank, and she's a soldier. Why not take it for what it is? A promotion.
If your gonna tells stories...NO MATTER WHO IT IS...they just have to be interesting characters and have a story that holds up to that characters development.
X-23 should have made it. A series on Red She-Hulk (Good idea), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) etc...
I don't know why Marvel gave Red She-Hulk her own book.She is a boring and stupid character that I don't know why did Betty turn into this and stayed like that.
It still seems pathetic compared to DC (not a fan boy comment simply an observation)
Im new to Marvel (well technically have only recently started reading it since being a kid) and have never heard of Misty Knight but is she supposed to be the embodiment of blaxploitation?
Captain Marvel has been an amazing comic so far and I'm looking forward to the new arc starting and the first issue of Red Hulk was good. If fearless defenders is better then World's Finest (aka having a plot, well written characters and avoids the shameless fan service) I would consider checking it out.
@Blood1991: That's the temporary Fantastic Four, not the Future Foundation. The Future Foundation is specifically the kids, not the adults (excepting Dragon Man and kind of Alex).
What this man said. Also, it's never a bad thing to appeal to more demographics, to offer more titles and thus allow for more development of the brand. It's adds to a rich storytelling environment where the mythos grows with each new character. Plus, who doesn't enjoy seeing more ladies at the local comic shop ? Certainly might make the rest of the guys wash up more if they anticipate seeing said opposite sex members.
I'll give credit to Marvel for the effort in the push, but not much of what they have thrown out there looks like it's going to last too long. The cancelled X-23 had better long term prospects than anything from Marvel Now IMO
As I look thought this discussion. I'm rather bemused that the strongest complaint about this change for Carol Danvers being a "name" and not the contents. It's a largely superficial issue that is keeping some of you from reading a story about a character that you say you care about. That's a particularly bizarre line in the sand to draw. It's as if you're looking for a reason to avoid it. Her powers were derived from her connection with the original Captain Marvel, right?
The name argument is one that bothered me when it was first changed so I when I saw the discussion War Killer and Babs were having, I wanted to jump and and express how I felt about it. The name being changed doesn't effect whether I read it or not. Carol Danvers is one of my favorite characters no matter what you call her i'm still reading the book. I think my issue is more that Marvel does this often with female characters and it doesn't help. I want this book to succeed, but I think it would have better served the character if Carol continued to build her name as Ms.Marvel. Naming her "Captain Marvel" is kind of taking away her identity. I would rather her identity be defined by her gender than her to lose it entirely. When you google Ms.Marvel, Carol is the first thing that pops up. It knows who I meant, that name is hers..and hers alone. "Captain Marvel" identifies too many other characters and some even more popular, so I don't see how changing her name helps.
The cancelled X-23 had better long term prospects than anything from Marvel Now IMO
Although I think changing her name hurts but "Captain Marvel" or Ms.Marvel has already held her own book for far longer than X-23.
Ms Marvel was integral to every event and New Avengers at the time and got a lot of push from it with her solo title. Her current series does not have that to piggy back on to lure in readers.
She got more push than any female character in memory and while it did last 50 issues, I would argue that X-23 would still be going if was given anywhere near the amount of attention.
Ms Marvel was integral to every event and New Avengers at the time and got a lot of push from it with her solo title. Her current series does not have that to piggy back on to lure in readers.
She got more push than any female character in memory and while it did last 50 issues, I would argue that X-23 would still be going if was given anywhere near the amount of attention.
Well Ms.Marvel is more important than X-23, she's always going to be a bigger part of what's happening in the Marvel Universe.
It's great to see them actually making an effort to promote their female characters properly. To me Marvel has always felt like a mens only club and that's why I've stayed as far away from the company as I could. I'm guessing that will have to change now. My poor wallet.
@RedheadedAtrocitus: I love Jeff Parker, I think that he's one of Marvel's most talented writers. Red She-Hulk is awesome! I can't wait to see how he develops Betty Ross' character. :)
Well, it's not Red She-Hulk I don't like, it's all the Red Hulks period. There's no reason for them. Their creation is completely inane and they seem to be around only because the created wanted everyone to love them and like them so they were shoved down our throats repeatedly.
As for Captain Marvel vs X-23, maybe, maybe not. I mean, it's really all how they are being written. Can you honestly say Captain Marvel has more of an impact than Wolverine? Captain America? There's no reason given the chance and the proper writer X-23 wouldn't be propelled into the same world stage as Captain Marvel.
I dunno why but I rarely like female hero books. Captain marvel is going good, X23 was good but other than that I didn't like much. Also this 'all female' 'all something' books don't catch my interest. I think it only makes the women 'the others' rather than giving them a place. Also isn't their purpose is just staying behind and being pretty. The last one was a joke by the way or was it? :D
Well, to my knowledge their merely books about female heroes. Where did you get the idea there would never be any male characters? Well, other than the Defenders book? If female heroes haven't interested you, well, either it's because you haven't read any of the decently written books or, it's cause you can't identify with a female hero. I really liked the Power Girl series as it was well written and didn't take itself seriously in any way... can you tell I'm bitter? The Birds of Prey... well... the one written by Gail Simone was also excellent. Anyway, two things to try if you're up to it. These new books, look... okay but, we'll see. Kinda excited to see Sif get her own series... really think she's had potential for a long time... now.. if only we can get Ann Nocenti to write them ... kidding!!
Well, it's not Red She-Hulk I don't like, it's all the Red Hulks period. There's no reason for them. Their creation is completely inane and they seem to be around only because the created wanted everyone to love them and like them so they were shoved down our throats repeatedly.
How were the Red Hulks shoved down your throat? Nobody forced you to read Hulk books...and yes they were Avengers and Defenders and parts of teams but those teams had several other members and they were almost never the focal and thus you didn't really have to deal with them.
@blackkitty said:
As for Captain Marvel vs X-23, maybe, maybe not. I mean, it's really all how they are being written. Can you honestly say Captain Marvel has more of an impact than Wolverine? Captain America? There's no reason given the chance and the proper writer X-23 wouldn't be propelled into the same world stage as Captain Marvel.
It wasn't the writer. That's what people don't seem to get. Daredevil has been on the decline for years now and the writers and artist that worked on the book have been snatching up Eisner's. Selling comics is about exposure, not quality or writing.
@Nosfistis: i really hope everything you just said was sarcasm. otherwise, you are a prime example of why this change needed to be made. your paragraph was a disgusting and truly horrible read. please feel ashamed of yourself for having such unevolved views on women everywhere.
I completely disagree. The fact that she is CAPTAIN MARVEL indicates not only can she too, a woman, become a CAPTAIN, but that her gender isn't something she uses to define herself. Sure she is a lady, but she's a CAPTAIN FIRST; and in a man's world, that's saying something.
Too bad too, you're missing out on an exceptional series because of one word. "Ms."
I see what you're saying, I just feel that it's a bit odd that Marvel believes that the only way she can be successful is by taking away the name that defined her as a female comic book character and instead felt that she could only sell comics by giving her not just a new name, but a name which originally belonged to a MALE superhero first. I figured that if Marvel really wanted to push their female characters, like many fans want them too, then instead of hiding them behind titles that previously belonged to male characters, wouldn't it make more sense to push a her original title, one that many fans already know, one that tells readers right off the bat that yes this is a female character, who is able to stand next to male heroes like Iron Man and Spider-Man, but yet isn't afraid to be called "Ms."? I just really don't see what was wrong with the title of Ms. Marvel? I liked it and thought that it made her character stand out much more, not just as a superhero, but as a strong, independent woman; one which many female readers could look to as a great role model who embraces the fact that she's a woman and isn't ashamed of it.
I agree with War Killer. Babs makes a great point about her name and her gender defining who she is as character but at the same time, "Captain Marvel" is another characters name, a character that will always be identified by that name. Carol is the 2nd character to use the name "Captain Marvel" since Dark Reign, the 5th overall, and the 3rd female to use that title. I think it's safe to say "Ms.Marvel" was more unique to her and something of her own. I think the lack of uniqueness when it comes to female characters hurts more than it helps with Marvel characters. They haven't been able to keep 1 female superhero comic afloat yet. Ms.Marvel,She-Hulk,Silver Sable,Elektra,the list goes on..all failed. Maybe the reason is most female characters are just a female version of an already popular male character and I think that same reasoning hurts minority characters as well. Most of them aren't unique and you don't see that with most of Marvel popular characters. Iron Man is nothing like Captain America, Thor is nothing like Hulk, Punisher is nothing like Ghost Rider, Daredevil is nothing like Wolverine etc but female characters and minority characters suffer from the lack of uniqueness and diversity and those have always been the characters that Marvel has failed to sell, so that's why I agree with War Killer. Ms.Marvel isn't very unique in creation there are characters that are similar to her in the Marvel Universe, but at the very least she should be taking responsibility for building up her own name, not the name of another character.
I definitely agree with this! It's great that Carol is now Captain Marvel, but it's more important for her character to really stand out before she takes the mantle. I think that a solo series or more stories that focus on how she is able to change the situations she is in would definitely bring out her character and make her a really unique character that everyone would be interested in. It's like how Wolverine became a standout character because there were many stories where his character really shines out and the same thing could happen with Ms. Marvel when handled properly. Captain Marvel however is a good start and if the title runs long enough to the point where fans start to notice her a bit more, then Ms. Marvel would definitely be as much as a standout character as characters like Wolverine and Captain America.
FINALLY! its what i have been waiting for. usually marvel has only ONE female solo book if any at all, so with an all females team book, sif (even though her name's not in the title), red she-hulk and ms. marvel (thats who she will always be to me) its about time they caught up to dc. and im going to enjoy it while it lasts. and lets face it marvel female solo series never last long, the longest being spider-woman back in the 70s-80s. they usually tap out at around issue 20 so im going to enjoy this next year or two of awesomeness. and if the rumors be true of wasp being in iron man 3 and carol danvers in guardians of the galaxy and avengers 2 all the better. marvel has got me excited for the first time in years, lets see how well the stories are told in these books. i have hope
They had to boot out Jennifer Walters to make her work. You remember her, don't you? The She-Hulk?
And why the hell was Marvel NOW necessary for this? All Marvel had to do is put more effort into making more books with female leads. Marvel NOW wasn't even necessary. All they have to do is act like they give a damn. Something they don't bother to do unless they can undercut DC in the process.
They had to boot out Jennifer Walters to make her work. You remember her, don't you? The She-Hulk?
What?
@enigma_2099 said:
And why the hell was Marvel NOW necessary for this? All Marvel had to do is put more effort into making more books with female leads. Marvel NOW wasn't even necessary. All they have to do is act like they give a damn. Something they don't bother to do unless they can undercut DC in the process.
I don't think it was, I think Marvel planned on doing it regardless but because the point of Marvel NOW is supposed to be a shirt in their status quo, I guess they though now was the right time to make another attempt at putting out books with female leads. If you look at the stats, Marvel has been trying to put out books with female leads for years, they don't catch on and Marvel has to end up canceling them. It's not that Marvel "doesn't give a damn", nor do I believe that they don't put "effort" into books with female leads, I think Marvel just has a hard time make the roles of those women in comics as a whole significant because there isn't enough room. Most publishers have about 5-10 popular characters and maybe 2 teams that people actually care about. Because of Marvel's age and the fact they don't have any decent Golden Age female heroes means that the female characters now have to compete with characters for popularity that have built the company and have had a huge headstart. If I was Marvel I would have just rebooted like DC.
The cancelled X-23 had better long term prospects than anything from Marvel Now IMO
Although I think changing her name hurts but "Captain Marvel" or Ms.Marvel has already held her own book for far longer than X-23.
Ms Marvel was integral to every event and New Avengers at the time and got a lot of push from it with her solo title. Her current series does not have that to piggy back on to lure in readers.
She got more push than any female character in memory and while it did last 50 issues, I would argue that X-23 would still be going if was given anywhere near the amount of attention.
Exactly this.
@Nosfistis said:
I always had a problem with marvel women series and generally women in marvel. I enjoyed DC books very much and I believe there are 2 basic differences that keep most Marvel women in low profile: a)They are not sexy enough. b) They are too macho. Really. I'm an adult male viewer and I can't find anything "womanly" in marvel women. Most have cool costumes and great personalities, they may have great adventures but that's just it. A good female book must be in some way different than the rest. It must be about women, not about she-men. Girls going around, kicking ass, wearing full-body latex and trying to prove that their d&$% is bigger than most men, believing the moment they show part of their breasts they will fall under the "fascist regime of men that look women only as sexual objects". No. They should be strong, sexy, effeminate, sentimental, flirty, individual. Prime examples are Wonder Woman, Power Girl and Catwoman.
Seriously? Although the bolded part pretty much explains it all, I guess.
Marvel missed the boat recently with the shoot down of Marjorie Liu's proposal of an all woman team. She had the biggees all lined up and she got a big fat no. So -- despite my intent to support the Fearless Defenders title, I shake my head at how out of touch Marvel seems to be when it comes to their female characters.
Now -- as for Sif and Psylocke? I could not be any happier. So, so excited for those. I wouldn't count Captain Marvel as part of MarvelNOW though -- Carol has been in her new digs for five months now.
While he's right, that's how it will always be, X-23 didn't have less of a role in events than Ms.Marvel because Marvel simply didn't want to use her that way, she didn't have more of a role because it wouldn't make any sense if Marvel used her that way. She's just not that important. She's also street leveler and any street leveler that wasn't an Avenger or an important X-character during events wasn't getting valuable face time. Even characters like Punisher and Daredevil are struggling a bit. So in other words, when someone is saying that X-23 has a better chance of selling than other female characters when there are several that are not only simply more significant to the fictional world Marvel created but have a better track record with their previous ongoings..I don't know how that makes any sense.
Not necessarily. Laura's character has a lot going for her and they missed the opportunity to expand on that. Being a street-leveler or not, she had so much potential in getting her out there and being a real team-player with the big boys and girls. Relegating her back into a high-school environment (the Avengers Academy) didn't make any sense when the character has already been around the world dealing with characters such as Daken.
I am not saying X-23 is Carol level Marvel property, but I do believe her series could have survived and it would have definitely done so had the company pushed her as hard as they did Ms Marvel back then -- not just in promoting her, but in getting her involved in substantive ways with major story arcs. X-23 is an incredibly powerful character and a popular one, at least in terms of female heroes.
Not necessarily. Laura's character has a lot going for her and they missed the opportunity to expand on that. Being a street-leveler or not, she had so much potential in getting her out there and being a real team-player with the big boys and girls. Relegating her back into a high-school environment (the Avengers Academy) didn't make any sense when the character has already been around the world dealing with characters such as Daken.
I am not saying X-23 is Carol level Marvel property, but I do believe her series could have survived and it would have definitely done so had the company pushed her as hard as they did Ms Marvel back then -- not just in promoting her, but in getting her involved in substantive ways with major story arcs. X-23 is an incredibly powerful character and a popular one, at least in terms of female heroes.
She's a bottom of the totem pole character. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Pushing X-23 as hard as Carol would be like pushing Moon Knight as hard as Captain America. Their level of significance is on two different levels. They couldn't have possibly pushed X-23 anymore without it becoming obnoxious whoring of the character. And before someone says "well that's what they do with Wolverine", I acknowledge that..but Marvel can do that with Wolverine because he plays a role in the Marvel Universe that is bigger than whatever team he's on, X-23 doesn't. To be honest if you look at the last couple of events (excluding AvX obviously) , the X-Men barely fit in them at all..so how would X-23 have had more of a role? Daredevil is far more popular than X-23 and is an alot more important property to them and he didn't even appear in some events at all. The Avengers were the focal of most of Marvel's events. I don't know where X-23 is supposed to fit in that equation.
I could not disagree with you more. X-23 is far from being at the bottom. Very far. She had a mini --- sparked off a series with NYX -- was an integral member of the X-Force and then from there, went off into her own series.
I get you don't feel the character deserves attention, I just happen to disagree with you.
I could not disagree with you more. X-23 is far from being at the bottom.
When I say the bottom, I don't mean she's completely insignificant. What I mean is she's kind of in the background. The original X-Men have been getting a push for far longer than she's even existed. They will either have to kill them off or stop pushing them in order for X-23 to have her moment and I don't see that happening.
@lykopis said:
I get you don't feel the character deserves attention, I just happen to disagree with you.
I never said that she doesn't deserve more attention, by argument is that Marvel won't give her any more because they can't. The way her character is structured it will be years before she does enough to hold an ongoing by herself. There have been other female characters who failed to hold their own series under far better circumstances.
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