The Mandarin is too sterotypical, but Luke Cage is fine?

#1 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

One of the excuses that Iron Fail 3 apologists have constantly volleyed is that, "well, comic book Mandarin is too much of a racial caricature for 2013!" Now let's dissect why this argument is completely and utterly disgusting.

1. Inability to differentiate between cultural stereotypes and racial caricatures

For example, a depiction of a(n orthodox) Jewish man wearing a yarmulke and eating gefilte fish is simply a somewhat stereotypical depiction that has a base in reality. Stereotypes exist for a reason, which is that they are true. A racial caricature of the Jewish man would involve anti-Semitic attributes such as a ratty appearance and money-grubbing nature. The difference is quite obvious. Now, in his publication history, The Mandarin has had varying degrees of stereotypical nature, though none of them verge on the path of caricature. In fact, his more recent business suited appearance would have worked very well. Also, note that fact that many fans are clamoring for a Luke Cage movie, despite that characters VERY stereotypical nature. In fact, many elements of Cage are borderline carictures, namely his "quest for white booty", noted by the fact that all of the women that he has been written as having had pre-marital sex with were white. Also keep in mind of the fact that BEN KINGSLEY WAS DRESSED IN THE MORE STEREOTYPICAL MANDARIN COSTUME, SO THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE!!!!!!

2. Ignorance of The Mandarin's actual premise

Many (ignorant) people believe that The Mandarin's motivation is a yellow peril-esque, "Oh, I kirr thee dumb white man and wape his Pepper. Then me go over to DC u-nee-vewse and team up wif Egg Fu." No.....god, no. The Mandarin's premise is complete and total untapped potential, and would have absolutely worked in story since Marvel Studios seemed content with getting in bed with China faster than a cheap ho wanting gas money. The Mandarin despises Communist China and wishes to regovern the country back into its pre-communist government and culture. This is why he dresses in the Feudal garb, from the long robe to the armor that he wears sometimes to fight Iron Man in sometimes. Thus, China would actually be seen in a benign manner, with Iron Man helping them take out this threat. This is also the basic plot of when Mandarin first appeared in the comics, in which China asked for Iron Man's help in trying to take this guy out. This ain't rocket science, Shane Black.

3. Previous stereotypes in the series

In the first film, you had an Al Quaeda esque organization who were somewhat stereotypical Middle Eastern terrorists. In the second film, Whiplash was (idiotically) combined with Crimson Dynamo, calling back to the Silver Age with Iron Man's evil "Ruskie" foes. So why in the hell is a Chinese villain too much? Whiplash was even poor and living in Siberia! If that doesn't sound stereotypical, I don't know what does!

All in all, Iron Man 3 is a mediocre AT ABSOLUTE BEST movie that failed at every possible second to make the film have any sense of threat or of legitimate villains. Iron Man 2 had one decent but underused villain, and one crappy one; neither of the first 2 films were very good on making the villains accurate to the comics. IM3 could have easily fixed both of these by essentially combining Joe Casey's "Enter The Mandarin" with Warren Ellis' "Extremis", using The Mandarin's dexterity, martial arts prowess and powerful rings to give a much different and much better final fight, as well as casting Chow Yun Fat, AN ACTUAL CHINESE MAN. Hell, even Ken Watanabe would have worked, despite his being Japanese. The actor they went with was of course Ben Kingsley, which is dumb as hell considering that he's white and Indian and could pass as simply the former. On top of that, even his great talents are wasted on a stupid joke that helped fill a boring movie with other stupid jokes. Just......just damn. Everything about this movie is failed potential: too much damn comedy that isn't even funny, wasting time on poorly written "set pieces" disguised as plot points as opposed to actually developing characters, bringing up the PTSD and then doing nothing with it, selling this movie as a dark and serious flick(which Iron Man should be, and not some new age Beverly Hills Cop) when it is anything but, oddly placed action that is for the most part kind of boring, RETARDED use of the suits, and not to mention Tony "protecting" Pepper despite not protecting his house and readying the retardedly used suits, who become trapped under rubble despite taking hits from Hulk and Thor. Speaking of which, how in the hell do the soldiers so easily break those suits that withstood such force before? All in all, a rusted iron.

#2 Edited by ComicStooge (12790 posts) - - Show Bio

One of the excuses that Iron Fail 3 apologists have constantly volleyed is that, "well, comic book Mandarin is too much of a racial caricature for 2013!" Now let's dissect why this argument is completely and utterly disgusting.

1. Inability to differentiate between cultural stereotypes and racial caricatures

For example, a depiction of a(n orthodox) Jewish man wearing a yarmulke and eating gefilte fish is simply a somewhat stereotypical depiction that has a base in reality. Stereotypes exist for a reason, which is that they are true. A racial caricature of the Jewish man would involve anti-Semitic attributes such as a ratty appearance and money-grubbing nature. The difference is quite obvious. Now, in his publication history, The Mandarin has had varying degrees of stereotypical nature, though none of them verge on the path of caricature. In fact, his more recent business suited appearance would have worked very well. Also, note that fact that many fans are clamoring for a Luke Cage movie, despite that characters VERY stereotypical nature. In fact, many elements of Cage are borderline carictures, namely his "quest for white booty", noted by the fact that all of the women that he has been written as having had pre-marital sex with were white. Also keep in mind of the fact that BEN KINGSLEY WAS DRESSED IN THE MORE STEREOTYPICAL MANDARIN COSTUME, SO THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE!!!!!!

2. Ignorance of The Mandarin's actual premise

Many (ignorant) people believe that The Mandarin's motivation is a yellow peril-esque, "Oh, I kirr thee dumb white man and wape his Pepper. Then me go over to DC u-nee-vewse and team up wif Egg Fu." No.....god, no. The Mandarin's premise is complete and total untapped potential, and would have absolutely worked in story since Marvel Studios seemed content with getting in bed with China faster than a cheap ho wanting gas money. The Mandarin despises Communist China and wishes to regovern the country back into its pre-communist government and culture. This is why he dresses in the Feudal garb, from the long robe to the armor that he wears sometimes to fight Iron Man in sometimes. Thus, China would actually be seen in a benign manner, with Iron Man helping them take out this threat. This is also the basic plot of when Mandarin first appeared in the comics, in which China asked for Iron Man's help in trying to take this guy out. This ain't rocket science, Shane Black.

3. Previous stereotypes in the series

In the first film, you had an Al Quaeda esque organization who were somewhat stereotypical Middle Eastern terrorists. In the second film, Whiplash was (idiotically) combined with Crimson Dynamo, calling back to the Silver Age with Iron Man's evil "Ruskie" foes. So why in the hell is a Chinese villain too much? Whiplash was even poor and living in Siberia! If that doesn't sound stereotypical, I don't know what does!

All in all, Iron Man 3 is a mediocre AT ABSOLUTE BEST movie that failed at every possible second to make the film have any sense of threat or of legitimate villains. Iron Man 2 had one decent but underused villain, and one crappy one; neither of the first 2 films were very good on making the villains accurate to the comics. IM3 could have easily fixed both of these by essentially combining Joe Casey's "Enter The Mandarin" with Warren Ellis' "Extremis", using The Mandarin's dexterity, martial arts prowess and powerful rings to give a much different and much better final fight, as well as casting Chow Yun Fat, AN ACTUAL CHINESE MAN. Hell, even Ken Watanabe would have worked, despite his being Japanese. The actor they went with was of course Ben Kingsley, which is dumb as hell considering that he's white and Indian and could pass as simply the former. On top of that, even his great talents are wasted on a stupid joke that helped fill a boring movie with other stupid jokes. Just......just damn. Everything about this movie is failed potential: too much damn comedy that isn't even funny, wasting time on poorly written "set pieces" disguised as plot points as opposed to actually developing characters, bringing up the PTSD and then doing nothing with it, selling this movie as a dark and serious flick(which Iron Man should be, and not some new age Beverly Hills Cop) when it is anything but, oddly placed action that is for the most part kind of boring, RETARDED use of the suits, and not to mention Tony "protecting" Pepper despite not protecting his house and readying the retardedly used suits, who become trapped under rubble despite taking hits from Hulk and Thor. Speaking of which, how in the hell do the soldiers so easily break those suits that withstood such force before? All in all, a rusted iron.

I completely agree.

#3 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: If IM3's success was truly based off of the (overrated) quality of The Avengers, and trust me, it was, then I feel that Thor 2 might take a hit in revenue do to this movie being lackluster at best. Combine that with the fact that Thor and Cap didn't fare nearly as well commercially or critically as Iron Man 1, and you have a recipe for shark jumping.

#4 Posted by ComicStooge (12790 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: If IM3's success was truly based off of the (overrated) quality of The Avengers, and trust me, it was, then I feel that Thor 2 might take a hit in revenue do to this movie being lackluster at best. Combine that with the fact that Thor and Cap didn't fare nearly as well commercially or critically as Iron Man 1, and you have a recipe for shark jumping.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought the Avengers was overrated. I thought it was pretty good. Not great, but good.

#5 Edited by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: oh god, everyone acted like it revolutionized something

#6 Posted by ComicStooge (12790 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: oh god, everyone acted like it revolutionized something

Yeah, it was nothing but a fun popcorn movie. Entertaining, but not much else.

#7 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33: Those mental retards, mandarin is awesome the way he is

If there is an actor that suits him it is the jade emperor at forbidden kingdom

#8 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

I. Does Luke Cage have a movie out? No.

II. It was a fun movie and the movieverse was a evolution. Name me another movieverse before The Avengers. It's OK... I'll wait.

#9 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: The Jay and Silent Bob universe.

#10 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: That's like saying Fast & Furious is a movieverse. For me a movieverse is when separate characters on their separate movies are able to meet each other or have a movie with all of them together. Jay and Silent Bob "Universe" are separate movies about Jay and Silent Bob.

#11 Edited by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: Several characters from the other movies do show up in Jay and Silent Bob strike back and aside from that particular movie none of them are actually about those 2 characters. Clerks, Clerks 2, Chasing Amy, Mall rats and Dogma use them as just side characters. And there are several connections between all of these movies so yea it would be a shared universe.

#12 Edited by Vortex13 (12250 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: Several characters from the other movies do show up in Jay and Silent Bob strike back and aside from that particular movie none of them are actually about those 2 characters. Clerks, Clerks 2, Chasing Amy, Mall rats and Dogma use them as just side characters. And there are several connections between all of these movies so yea it would be a shared universe.

I was going to point this out as well but you beat me to it lol.

#13 Posted by Vitality (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

@comicstooge: If IM3's success was truly based off of the (overrated) quality of The Avengers, and trust me, it was, then I feel that Thor 2 might take a hit in revenue do to this movie being lackluster at best. Combine that with the fact that Thor and Cap didn't fare nearly as well commercially or critically as Iron Man 1, and you have a recipe for shark jumping.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought the Avengers was overrated. I thought it was pretty good. Not great, but good.

Just because you don't like something that others do...does not mean it is overrated.

Please stop misusing that word.

#14 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@vortex13 said:

@joshmightbe said:

@m3th: Several characters from the other movies do show up in Jay and Silent Bob strike back and aside from that particular movie none of them are actually about those 2 characters. Clerks, Clerks 2, Chasing Amy, Mall rats and Dogma use them as just side characters. And there are several connections between all of these movies so yea it would be a shared universe.

I was going to point this out as well but you beat me to it lol.

I disagree. I don't consider them a shared universe. More like the characters themselves just appearing in different Kevin Smith movies, with no significance other than that they're characters. The dudes from Clerks are in J&SB, but I will never consider Clerks and J&SB Strike Back to reside in the same universe. Theres no proof that Dogma and Chasing Amy are in the same universe. If DCAU Batman appeared in an episode of South Park, that would not mean that they share a universe.

#15 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightrise: So despite the fact that the characters all exist in the same world and have connective tissue such as the same fictional restaurant chain (Mooby's) shared fictional religious symbols (Buddy Christ) an have 2 characters that appear in every one of the movies and several who make random appearances in others you don't consider it shared? Also in J&B strike back all but one of the main characters from Chasing Amy appear at least once and the events of Dogma are talked about in a scene where Jay is complaining that no one believes them about it. What exactly do you need to qualify for a shared universe? Honestly the those movies have almost just as much connection to the rest as most of the Avengers build up movies.

#16 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33360 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree

#17 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: I think they're just characters used repeatedly by Kevin Smith. Ben Affleck jokes about it in J&SB.

#18 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightrise: even so its pretty clear that they all inhabit the same world and interact with each other and thats all thats required to be a shared universe

#19 Edited by Vortex13 (12250 posts) - - Show Bio

@knightrise: On the clerks 2 DVD they have an extended scene from when they are in the holding cells if you remember Jay say's the can give them the cash to open up the store and own it. In the extended version of the scene they are asked how they have the money and Jay says something along the lines of "how does everyone forget that we got that movie money" which indicates that those two movies exist in the same universe. As well as there being a graphic novel that Smith wrote called chasing dogma which covered the gap between the two films. It's definitely all in the same universe.

#20 Edited by Vortex13 (12250 posts) - - Show Bio

By the way I kind of like the fact this thread has become a question of the Keven Smith films from Clerks and Clerks 2 being in the same universe lol. Which smith has confirmed and mentioned many many times himself. On the Commentary of Clerks 2 he says that it would be the last of his films that were connected.

#21 Posted by ComicStooge (12790 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitality said:

@comicstooge said:

@jointron33 said:

@comicstooge: If IM3's success was truly based off of the (overrated) quality of The Avengers, and trust me, it was, then I feel that Thor 2 might take a hit in revenue do to this movie being lackluster at best. Combine that with the fact that Thor and Cap didn't fare nearly as well commercially or critically as Iron Man 1, and you have a recipe for shark jumping.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought the Avengers was overrated. I thought it was pretty good. Not great, but good.

Just because you don't like something that others do...does not mean it is overrated.

Please stop misusing that word.

I didn't think the movie was as amazing as everyone made it out to be, ergo, I found it to be 'overated'.

I'm not misusing the word at all.

#22 Edited by Vitality (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@vitality said:

@comicstooge said:

@jointron33 said:

@comicstooge: If IM3's success was truly based off of the (overrated) quality of The Avengers, and trust me, it was, then I feel that Thor 2 might take a hit in revenue do to this movie being lackluster at best. Combine that with the fact that Thor and Cap didn't fare nearly as well commercially or critically as Iron Man 1, and you have a recipe for shark jumping.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought the Avengers was overrated. I thought it was pretty good. Not great, but good.

Just because you don't like something that others do...does not mean it is overrated.

Please stop misusing that word.

I didn't think the movie was as amazing as everyone made it out to be, ergo, I found it to be 'overated'.

I'm not misusing the word at all.

I'm sure they said it was amazing because they believed it was.

It may not have met the expectations you built in your head before watching it...but that does not make others opinions on the movie any less true.

So again I say...just because you don't like something that others do...does not mean it is overrated.

When you claim that a movie is overrated because you do not like it...you're saying that your opinion is the only opinion that matters and everyone else is wrong.

This is why using the word overrated in this case is indeed a misuse of the word.

#23 Edited by ComicStooge (12790 posts) - - Show Bio

@vitality said:

@comicstooge said:

@vitality said:

@comicstooge said:

@jointron33 said:

@comicstooge: If IM3's success was truly based off of the (overrated) quality of The Avengers, and trust me, it was, then I feel that Thor 2 might take a hit in revenue do to this movie being lackluster at best. Combine that with the fact that Thor and Cap didn't fare nearly as well commercially or critically as Iron Man 1, and you have a recipe for shark jumping.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought the Avengers was overrated. I thought it was pretty good. Not great, but good.

Just because you don't like something that others do...does not mean it is overrated.

Please stop misusing that word.

I didn't think the movie was as amazing as everyone made it out to be, ergo, I found it to be 'overated'.

I'm not misusing the word at all.

I'm sure they said it was amazing because they believed it was.

It may not have met the expectations you built in your head before watching it...but that does not make others opinions on the movie any less true.

So again I say...just because you don't like something that others do...does not mean it is overrated.

When you claim that a movie is overrated because you do not like it...you're saying that your opinion is the only opinion that matters and everyone else is wrong.

This is why using the word overrated in this case is indeed a misuse of the word.

I obviously can't speak on behalf of over people, so in my eyes, I thought the movie was overrated.

I never said my opinion mattered more then anyone else, don't put words in my mouth.

I can think a movie is overrated if I want to, I don't see why you're getting so worked up over it.

#24 Posted by Thor_Ul (113 posts) - - Show Bio

Jay and Silent Bob movies (View Askew Universe) are indeed conected. Both characters traveled through the differents movies with varied levels of relevance in the stories. But is clear than all the movies are told in the same fictional background.

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