DC Should Stop Shelving Their Women, But Fans Should Read Before Passing Judgement

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Posted by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio

This is more of an opinion piece than the usual features I publish, so bear with me. A recent and very poignant editorial on Wired's website by blogger Corrina Lawson written in the voice of Earth 2 Lois Lane was really touching, and it also got me thinking about the role of Lois in the upcoming EARTH 2 story by James Robinson. "Dear DC Comics: Why Do You Keep Fridging Me?" delved into the number of times that Lois Lane, as of late, has gotten some negative treatment at DC Comics -- and Lawson brings up some very good points. She discusses the way that Lois has been presented as a supporting character to Superman and how much of the staff working at DC's editorial level really don't know what to do with her. And I feel she's right, they don't know what to do with her.

INFINITE CRISIS

It's not very often that we see a really solid Lois Lane story; one where she reads as a fully capable, thoughtful, intellectual and interesting female character. Often she's put on the back burner (or dare I say, "grounded") until she is needed by the writer in one respect or another to act as support for Superman, or to give him a reason to save her. Lets face it, too often Lois's character has been treated as a plot device. In that respect, I think Lawson makes some very good points. Yet, to judge the upcoming Earth 2 story set to be released this May based on a press release and without having read the first issue of James Robinson's story, is equally as wrong as it is to "fridge" a character like Earth 2 Lois Lane. The fact of the matter is, we don't have the whole story.

The controversy erupted when DC Editor Pat McCullen revealed (in not so many words) that the way to turn Superman into a really angry guy is to kill the love of his life, Lois Lane. It's true, Lois has certainly held a very special place in the Earth 2 Man of Steel's heart, so to remove her from the equation is certainly a way to fire him up. Then again, it's also been done before. If you recall the fifth issue of INFINITE CRISIS, Lois Lane's death caused Earth 2 Superman to go haywire. Blaming the death of his beloved Lois on Kal-El and launching an attack on Earth 1's hero.

INFINITE CRISIS

Perhaps the reason so many people got upset so quickly when they first heard that Earth 2 Lois will die is because we, as fans, have seen the deaths of so many female characters in the past (particularly Earth 2 characters). Take Supergirl; one of the most prominent DC ladies met her match in a battle against the Anti-Monitor in CRISIS IN INFINITE EARTHS -- a story involving heroes from both universes. Her death occurred in a story that involved both Earth-2 and Earth Prime.

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS

Supergirl isn't the only female character to have died in a story involving Earth-2. Many female characters who hold a prominent place in current DC continuity have met their match on Earth-2. The most iconic of them being Wonder Woman, who was ret-conned out of existence during CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. Honestly, it doesn't get much worse than when a publisher pretends a character never existed. I'd say that's just as bad as being used as a plot device for another character, wouldn't you? Yet, that's what happened in the case of Wonder Woman -- at least until she made her return (briefly) during INFINITE CRISIS #5. Who knows if she still exists on Earth 2 or not.

Catwoman is another female character whose Earth 2 version met her demise. She too was ret-conned out of existence thanks to the events of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. There is no question that these women are some of the most popular in comics, so it is no wonder that watching the Earth 2 versions of these characters fall out of existence is difficult for some readers. Of course people were up in arms when they first heard Lois Lane would be dead in Robinsons's upcoming Earth 2 book. Why wouldn't they be after witnessing so many Earth 2 ladies die? Yet, even if you don't like the press release; it's hard to pass judgement on anything we have yet to read.

INFINITE CRISIS #5

As much as I don't like seeing my female characters used as a plot device in the regular universe or otherwise, I have to admit that there are very few things that could drive the "Man of Steel" to madness -- and doing away with the love of his life is certainly one of them. The thing is, I really love Lois Lane. I love what she represents, who she is as well as her importance to comics. Yet, even knowing that the character won't be alive when Robinson's Earth 2 book launches in May, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day, all we really have is a quote from a press release to go on.

Having said that; I do sincerely hope he and DC editorial take into consideration the number of popular Earth 2 women that have either met their doom or been ret-conned by one crisis or another. The fact that some of the biggest ladies in comics don't exist in that universe leaves many female readers and fans in general (myself included), a bit uneasy about how women are still being treated in comics. No, they shouldn't exist solely as plot devices, no they shouldn't just be ret-conned out of existence like they don't matter. I like to think we've come a long way from when women existed solely to make the boys look good in a panel, and I hope creators keep that in mind when writing their stories.

#1 Posted by krspaceT (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

Well.....its Earth Two. Its purpose was to hold characters, now what is it, Ultimate DCNU?

#2 Posted by RazzaTazz (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

I would personally prefer Lois being treated like that than the romance comic version of the 1960s

Moderator
#3 Posted by The Stegman (22765 posts) - - Show Bio

This is why we all love Babs, completely agree!

#4 Posted by cacarl (138 posts) - - Show Bio

DC is so wrong...They should learn from Marv...Oh, wait.

#5 Posted by Mercy_ (92257 posts) - - Show Bio
@cacarl

DC is so wrong...They should learn from Marv...Oh, wait.

Lmao.
Moderator
#6 Posted by JonesDeini (3619 posts) - - Show Bio

I dig where you're coming from but I gotta say that Lois is a supporting character and though those characters do grew very dedicated fan bases they truly exist to facilitate the protagonists stories. And Kara's death in COIE truly elevated her to icon status to me. I can't read/think of that story without getting deeply touched by and inspired by the self sacrificing heroism of Kara and Barry in those issues. As far as the general treatment of female characters in comics I agree that women and all other minority characters could use a great deal more representation by writers who are going to write them as compelling characters first and not just tokens used to fill the diversity quota.

#7 Posted by HolySerpent (12432 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh...never was a fan of Lois lane

#8 Posted by Icon (2051 posts) - - Show Bio
@JonesDeini said:

I dig where you're coming from but I gotta say that Lois is a supporting character and though those characters do grew very dedicated fan bases they truly exist to facilitate the protagonists stories. And Kara's death in COIE truly elevated her to icon status to me. I can't read/think of that story without getting deeply touched by and inspired by the self sacrificing heroism of Kara and Barry in those issues. As far as the general treatment of female characters in comics I agree that women and all other minority characters could use a great deal more representation by writers who are going to write them as compelling characters first and not just tokens used to fill the diversity quota.

I agree with all this.
#9 Posted by feargalr (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

I really don't understand all this stuff about Lois Lane.. at the end of the day, she is a supporting character to Superman, and her character is there to serve his in anyway it can, the same as Jimmy Olsen, or Perry White. So if James Robinson wants a really different superman, realistically, killing Lois is the best way he can do that.

But don't think I'm against female characters, I just think that Lois is not a character in her own right, at least not yet, maybe she will be one day.

The one thing that really bothers me though is that DC hasn't done a big budget live action Wonder Woman movie. If Thor can work on the big screen, then so can Wonder Woman, they just really really really need to find a great writer, director and actor, which given the amount of amazing talent in the business, should not be that difficult. Like really, everyone thought Thor would be terrible, and most of them didn't even know who the character was... then they watched it and most of them loved it. There's no reason the same treatment could not work for Wonder Woman and I really don't understand why it hasn't already been done... really I don't get it...

Also Sara great article. You should do this kinda thing more often :)

#10 Posted by Darkmount1 (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@cacarl: No, no, you were right on the money. They should learn from Marv Wolfman. In an interview with Village Voice from a while back, he gave a pretty fair piece of advice to big comic publishers, including the ones he worked for: event comics should only be used IN CASE OF EMERGENCY, be it a big continuity error or such. Unfortunately, the companies started seeing dollar signs in their eyes as soon as the numbers started rolling in....

#11 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (4689 posts) - - Show Bio

Now Lois Lane can be an independent character as everyone says she is even in death. Besides, Kal-El can't be tied down by romanticism and rules as he can't fly 55.

#12 Posted by Maybeland (14 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get the people loosing their mind at DC, on the issue of women.

I mean they are no better than Marvel but I don't see headlines at websites reading Marvel should stop fridging Jean Greay. You don't see people complaining for a Ms Marvel movie from MARVEL? I mean if you think about right now DC might actually be better off on women than Marvel.

DC has going for it several titles where the lead characters are women, Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Batwoman, and a book that is an all women teem, Birds of Prey.

Marvel has currently going what?

Also last time a I checked wasn't DC, ahead of Marvel on female writers, I know it's still abysmally and appealingly low still.

So my question is why is DC being held to a tougher standard on the treatment of Women than MARVEL?

#13 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10916 posts) - - Show Bio

@krspaceT said:

Well.....its Earth Two. Its purpose was to hold characters, now what is it, Ultimate DCNU?

Was actually wondering if Earth-2 was going to be somewhat of their own Ultimateverse...

#14 Posted by kartron (420 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting observation. Nice article Sara!

#15 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry I'm not getting the complaint. Didn't every character, male and female get removed from existence when E2 was erased in infinite crisis? And didn't they get more or less reborn instantly on NE, it's not like Catwoman or Wonder Woman or Batman and Robin or any other E2 character really went missing from comics if they still had monthly adventures in the NE. I also feel no pity for Lois one of the few who actually died because she had a long life and died in the arms of someone who loved her very much.....and then there was an awesome super battle in her memory.I wasn't expecting her return so I'll just keep that beautiful death in my mind for the character.I do feel semi bad about Supergirl but in the same way I feel bad about Barry Allen they both had heroic and meaningful deaths. Lois's, divorce aside shes had a great run in the N52, she got a promotion and everything, I feel sorry for allot of characters male and female, and while most writers don't know what to do with her, Lois Lane is not a character that needs my pity in any way shape or form

#16 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12418 posts) - - Show Bio

You just broke my heart with that Supergirl scan Babs.........

#17 Posted by GingerSnap (24 posts) - - Show Bio

I really don't understand all this stuff about Lois Lane.. at the end of the day, she is a supporting character to Superman, and her character is there to serve his in anyway it can, the same as Jimmy Olsen, or Perry White. So if James Robinson wants a really different superman, realistically, killing Lois is the best way he can do that.

It's not the killing of Lois Lane per se that's the problem with Robinson's EARTH-2 it's the fact that his EARTH-2 marks the third time in the last 12 months Lois has been killed off in an elseworld comic to generate angst for Superman (DCU Online Legends, Flashpoint: Project Superman). Looking beyond this past year, however, Lois has been killed to motivate Superman in several other elseworlds, including Kingdom Come, Distant Fires, Superman: Kal, and Superman Beyond. If James Robinson wanted to write a different Superman in his EARTH-2, it actually would have been more revolutionary to keep Lois in the story.

Killing Lois is the "best" way for Robinson to create a compelling story? Really? Killing the love interest off to drive the hero's actions is probably one of the most hackneyed choices a writer could make. If Robinson didn't want to use Lois, he could have created an Earth-2 where she simply doesn't exist or she's irrelevant because she has a different job. If Robinson wanted Superman to be darker and to wrestle with moral questions like to kill or not to kill, he could have killed off another character close to Superman or even just kill off an innocent civilian Superman failed to save.

Bottom line: Robinson's EARTH-2, specifically his treatment of Lois Lane, is problematic because it is creatively bankrupt and because it is utilizing a cliche plot point that has not only been overused in the past, but it has also been particularly overused this year. Lois is a supporting character, but that doesn't mean she should be treated like a disposable piece of meat whose sole purpose is to serve as Superman's motivation and his weakness.

#18 Posted by Daywing (4443 posts) - - Show Bio
@JonesDeini said:

I dig where you're coming from but I gotta say that Lois is a supporting character and though those characters do grew very dedicated fan bases they truly exist to facilitate the protagonists stories. And Kara's death in COIE truly elevated her to icon status to me. I can't read/think of that story without getting deeply touched by and inspired by the self sacrificing heroism of Kara and Barry in those issues. As far as the general treatment of female characters in comics I agree that women and all other minority characters could use a great deal more representation by writers who are going to write them as compelling characters first and not just tokens used to fill the diversity quota.

QFT
#19 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@krspaceT said:

Well.....its Earth Two. Its purpose was to hold characters, now what is it, Ultimate DCNU?

Was actually wondering if Earth-2 was going to be somewhat of their own Ultimateverse...

I think it is. I hope it, at least. I'm seeing it as a universe where killing is less "taboo". Think about it, if its Grayson then he may be angry of Bruce's death and Kal-El would be pissed about Lois and Wonder Woman doesn't really need anything.

And I don't agree. They wanted to change Superman with a tragedy. Robinson himself said that if Kal had a close relationship with a brother, then he'd have killed the brother. Or an Uncle. The point is that there was meant to be a tragedy, it has nothing to do with Lois Lane

#20 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

I find Sarah very unfair to Crisis and Infinite Crisis.

Yes, Earth-2 Lois Died in IC... so did Earth-2 Superman.

Yes, Earth-2 Wonder-Woman disappeared in Crisis...so did the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE (with the exception of a few JSA members and the four survivors but they too were not to be seen until IC...just like Earth-2 WW).

Yes, Earth-2 Catwoman died (she did not disapperar)...so did Earth-2 Batman, in a rather lousy episode at that.

Even Earth-1 Supergirl is not the best example because it was part of a larger editorial decision to get rid of pretty much everything remotely linked to Supes' Silver Age episodes (the Legion, Krypto, Jimmy Olsen's superpowers, Mr. Mxy). Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow finished the job so that Byrne could reboot the character from scratch (and although the elements were missed, it is a great reboot that humanized the character like never before).

Now, at the same time, I find Sarah very nice to Robinson, especially considering that it is not the first time he does this, in both the misogynistic and unnecessary deaths departments. The best example of that is the infamous Cry for Justice.

Robinson may not be misogynistic but I can understand where the critics come from: Lian is killed, Huntress and Lady Blackhawk have a threesome with Hal because he is suuuuch a stud, Supergirl starts crying when Hal Jordan asks her a question and Black Canary dissolves the League...because she could not handle the job without her husband beside her.

And Lian was not the only victim. As I said, Robinson just kept on killing characters so that the protagonists could scream JUSTICE! like idiots.

And the worst thing in all of this is that apparently, he is doing it again. I just do not understand why keep the same formula AND add even more WIR to it (Lois Lane, Catwoman and the entire Amazon people)?

#21 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3545 posts) - - Show Bio

You should never be shy about sharing our opinions in your work, Sara. You're an intelligent and insightful writer that has a worthwhile outlook. I always enjoy reading them.

I wouldn't say that DC itself doesn't seem to know what to do with Lois, specifically. I feel they have a problem with their female cast in general. Though, we should be fair. They are a right side better than Marvel is. This just blows my mind. Why is it that all these writers of incredible talent can't seem to write meaningful stories for female characters? Someone, somewhere must be holding them back. Is it editorial, the readers, who?

I kind of broached the issue in that question I submitted for the podcast, last week. Readers should give different stories a try when what they often complain about is everything seeming all the same. It's just that these very same people don't give the publishers any incentive to do things different. Case in point, they complain about events, but still continue to by them.

I think people are taking this death of Lois harder for Earth 2 because they had hope that since the Earth 1 couple was broken up. They still had Earth 2 to read as an option. Still, I already know that James really liked that relationship. He wouldn't kill her without reasons. You do have a strong point about how DC has basically retconned some of the more iconic DC women out of existence.

#22 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10916 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@krspaceT said:

Well.....its Earth Two. Its purpose was to hold characters, now what is it, Ultimate DCNU?

Was actually wondering if Earth-2 was going to be somewhat of their own Ultimateverse...

I think it is. I hope it, at least. I'm seeing it as a universe where killing is less "taboo". Think about it, if its Grayson then he may be angry of Bruce's death and Kal-El would be pissed about Lois and Wonder Woman doesn't really need anything.

Actually, Diana is the last of her race, so I'd assume that's why she's angry. I really hope it isn't Dick under the cowl, I want it to be Bruce. He could be angry because his daughter is MIA and he doesn't know where she is. I hope Earth-2 is like their own Ultimate Universe also where death is actually serious. Hopefully, if Earth-2 is a BIG success, then we can see more Earth-2 books...with solo's and more teams.

#23 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@FoxxFireArt said:

Still, I already know that James really liked that relationship. He wouldn't kill her without reasons.

Yes, because killing characters without reasons, build-up nor follow-up is something he would never do.

Except, you know for:

-Freedom Beast

-The Global Guardians (Tasmanian Devil, Gloss, Sandstorm...)

-Gongorilla's entire tribe and body

-A few thousand people in Star City

-Starman's boyfriend

-Lian Harper

And that is just one story.

#24 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@FoxxFireArt said:

Still, I already know that James really liked that relationship. He wouldn't kill her without reasons.

Yes, because killing characters without reasons, build-up nor follow-up is something he would never do.

Except, you know for:

-Freedom Beast

-The Global Guardians (Tasmanian Devil, Gloss, Sandstorm...)

-Gongorilla's entire tribe and body

-A few thousand people in Star City

-Starman's boyfriend

-Lian Harper

And that is just one story.

Oh please. None of those are as prominent as Lois Lane. The only one you can really compare is Lian Harper, to be honest. And Lian has a lot of follow-up.

It was horribly written and stupid, but c'mon.

@ArturoCalaKayVee: Yeah, I hope so too.

#25 Edited by dadarkknight36310 (93 posts) - - Show Bio

@Maybeland Ditto, It like Marvel can get away with anything and do not get judge for it. Like you said how many women titles do they have as a matter of fact I many titles do they have staring a minority character? Thats right zero they even canceled black panther for crying out loud yet it Dc who always get critized for some reason. Dc has women, multiply race, and gay characters staring in their own books so to me they are doing a great job. So please put Marvel under the same microscope because they are the company that seems to get a pass.

#26 Posted by GingerSnap (24 posts) - - Show Bio

The point is that there was meant to be a tragedy, it has nothing to do with Lois Lane

See? That's part of the problem for me, though: it has nothing to do with Lois Lane. Now, I could be wrong and perhaps Robinson will create a complex and compelling backstory for Lois and her death. You know, so we can see how and why she's important beyond serving as dead body. Otherwise, and this is what I'm afraid of, she's just a prop in this universe as she's been in nearly every alternate universe in which she's been killed.

#27 Posted by Miss_Garrick (1757 posts) - - Show Bio

While 'Babs' has a point overall about how supporting female characters should be treated, I'm actually all for killing Lois. She is just a huge pain in the rear and Superman should consider Lori as a replacement. She's interesting.

#28 Posted by daredevil21134 (10639 posts) - - Show Bio

As long as its Earth 2 I could care less

#29 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@DarthShap said:

@FoxxFireArt said:

Still, I already know that James really liked that relationship. He wouldn't kill her without reasons.

Yes, because killing characters without reasons, build-up nor follow-up is something he would never do.

Except, you know for:

-Freedom Beast

-The Global Guardians (Tasmanian Devil, Gloss, Sandstorm...)

-Gongorilla's entire tribe and body

-A few thousand people in Star City

-Starman's boyfriend

-Lian Harper

And that is just one story.

Oh please. None of those are as prominent as Lois Lane. The only one you can really compare is Lian Harper, to be honest. And Lian has a lot of follow-up.

No follow-up in his own book is what I meant. The page right after Lian's death is a Starfire ass shot. Great writing!

And anyway, that was not my point. My point was that he kills unnecessarily and he does it a lot. The fact that this time, it is on Lois, once again off-camera and without any build-up to it from the looks of it and that is it not his first time but he knows how people hated it in CfJ just makes it worse!

#30 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with something like this in the New 52 reality is that the creators more or less have a clean slate from which to work, so obviously ones like Robinson are going to pull things like putting Lois out of commission for this new passel of stories involving Earth-2. Unfortunately the information like you say is so scanty at best now that we really just don't know what will happen in the future regarding her possible use as a plot device or even being retconned out of existence entirely. Rolling with the punches of what I have heard of Earth-2 thus far, I'm inclined to do as you do and just give Robinson and others the benefit of the doubt currently until we start to get a greater perspective for what is being done. Fact is, I liked the Earth-Two Lois Lane back in the day and all but maybe int he end it is good if she doesn't have the same role anymore in this upcoming book, to merely be there as the wife of the Man of Steel. Thing is, this can be either a subject of criticism or praise, and until we have a greater understanding of what Robinson intends to do with all of this, then we must reserve judgment. I am still excited for the upcoming title and look forward to great things. Only time will tell if I waited for nothing and will be disappointed.

#31 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@GingerSnap said:

The point is that there was meant to be a tragedy, it has nothing to do with Lois Lane

See? That's part of the problem for me, though: it has nothing to do with Lois Lane. Now, I could be wrong and perhaps Robinson will create a complex and compelling backstory for Lois and her death. You know, so we can see how and why she's important beyond serving as dead body. Otherwise, and this is what I'm afraid of, she's just a prop in this universe as she's been in nearly every alternate universe in which she's been killed.

That's being somewhat biased though. It could be that she never even existed and that you'd never see her in book at all, instead Robinson wants to make Superman a different kind of character. She's never even appeared, to be honest people should stop comparing her to New-Earth/Earth-0 Lois Lane, as if she was meant to be part of the universe. It Robinson's alternate reality universe, why are people so worked up about something he wanted to do? I mean, I understand it if she was introduced and then killed after being developed, but that's not the case at all.

#32 Posted by HexThis (880 posts) - - Show Bio

When it comes to comics there's a temptation to play it simple and very often women fall out of favor because most of their inductions into the mythos were on the basis of very sexist notions. I love Catwoman but she was created somewhat out of Bob Kane's frustration with women, Gwen Stacy and MJ as characters were sort of edgy and hip but became more vanilla to accommodate Peter Parker when they committed to him (wrote a whole blog post about that one), Batgirl and Batwoman were created so Batman and Robin wouldn't appear gay, Wonder Woman had some questionable fetish-y origins, and so to a lot of people Lois Lane is just Superman's girlfriend. Women were deemed less powerful, more susceptible, less effective, and less eligible for leadership positions earlier on, never being allowed to deliver the final blow.

Nonetheless, these women were still far more innovative and adaptive to more modern times than other examples in pop culture earlier on. The problem is they're somewhat stuck in a lull with the inclusion of movies and TV in the whole realm of comicbooks, industries which cater highly to the coveted male 18-49 audience like it's the goddamn holy grail.

But if comics wanna creep out of poor sales and lack of interest, being on the vanguard would be helpful. Lois Lane is a JOURNALIST which in the real world is like a real-life hero. Many journalists have entered countries at war and have risked their lives over and over again, cutting it very closely, simply to make sure the truth gets out there. Just look at someone like Lara Logan or Marie Colvin- there are TOTALLY stories you could create for Lois very easily within that realm.

#33 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

I see no problem.

#34 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@ReVamp said:

Oh please. None of those are as prominent as Lois Lane. The only one you can really compare is Lian Harper, to be honest. And Lian has a lot of follow-up.

No follow-up in his own book is what I meant. The page right after Lian's death is a Starfire ass shot. Great writing!

Well, that's editorial. They wanted Roy to have a mini-series, to contend with the events of his daughter's death. Hell, I bet the story itself was editorially mandated and he had to write it.

And anyway, that was not my point. My point was that he kills unnecessarily and he does it a lot.

She hasn't even appeared though. No development. Its another world, people are just automatically expecting that she should appear. If Grayson is confirmed as the Batman with Bruce dead, no one would b!tch about Bruce being dead because its Robinson's Alternate Universe and its the character he wants to work with, characterized in a certain manner. But make it a woman and I just see everyone going up in arms before even reading it. I mean, fair enough, they may have a point somewhere that I'm not seeing, but if I'm wrong I haven't seen the evidence to the contrary yet.

The fact that this time, it is on Lois, once again off-camera and without any build-up to it from the looks of it and that is it not his first time but he knows how people hated it in CfJ just makes it worse!

Why would there be any build up? She doesn't have characterization or development. That's the whole point. It would be worse if Robinson introduced her to the universe only to have her killed, because then it would be a classical Women in Refrigerators scene, where a respectable and prominent female character is killed by to push the character in a certain direction, "just cause". On this particular instance, I just don't get why people are angry. She hasn't even appeared. Its ANOTHER universe. Many characters aren't going to appear, why do people EXPECT that certain characters going to have to be part of the story? And yes, I understand that the point isn't totally valid to the topic at hand, since Lois is going to be part of continuity, but still, is isn't a "Girls in refrigerators" scene -- again, I know I'm repeating myself -- because she doesn't have any characterization or place in the universe at hand.

/rant.

=P

#35 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

As long as its Earth 2 I could care less

EXACTLY. More along the mentality people should have.

#36 Posted by GingerSnap (24 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp:

I'd honestly prefer Lois to be killed off after being introduced and developed rather than her being killed off page to create angst for Superman. It's just so utterly tired and cliche, especially this year which featured a fridged Lois Lane in two other elseworlds. Like I said in another post, I would also have been fine with no Lois Lane in the universe at all, if that's what Robinson wanted because at least it would have been different and it wouldn't have treated Lois like a ready-made corpse for motivational purposes.

I'm mainly puzzled by the lack of creativity at work here. If the purpose behind killing Lois was to create drama and to shape Superman into a darker character, then why not try making Superman (and the world) believe Lois to be dead? At least that way Lois could potentially play some sort of extremely minor background role as she tries to save herself and get back to the man she loves or she could simply return miraculously at some far off future date.

Killing off Lois has become the laziest way to mess around with Superman's character and to send the message that a universe is "off" or "darker" or whatever. It's old. It's been done. It's not cool anymore.

#37 Posted by _Black (2302 posts) - - Show Bio

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

I see no problem.

#38 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

Well, that's editorial. They wanted Roy to have a mini-series, to contend with the events of his daughter's death. Hell, I bet the story itself was editorially mandated and he had to write it.

Was the complete lack of build-up editorially mandated? For all the deaths? Was the ass shot also editorially mandated?

@ReVamp said:

And anyway, that was not my point. My point was that he kills unnecessarily and he does it a lot.

She hasn't even appeared though. No development. Its another world, people are just automatically expecting that she should appear. If Grayson is confirmed as the Batman with Bruce dead, no one would b!tch about Bruce being dead because its Robinson's Alternate Universe and its the character he wants to work with, characterized in a certain manner. But make it a woman and I just see everyone going up in arms before even reading it. I mean, fair enough, they may have a point somewhere that I'm not seeing, but if I'm wrong I haven't seen the evidence to the contrary yet.

Why would there be any build up? She doesn't have characterization or development. That's the whole point. It would be worse if Robinson introduced her to the universe only to have her killed, because then it would be a classical Women in Refrigerators scene, where a respectable and prominent female character is killed by to push the character in a certain direction, "just cause". On this particular instance, I just don't get why people are angry. She hasn't even appeared. Its ANOTHER universe. Many characters aren't going to appear, why do people EXPECT that certain characters going to have to be part of the story? And yes, I understand that the point isn't totally valid to the topic at hand, since Lois is going to be part of continuity, but still, is isn't a "Girls in refrigerators" scene -- again, I know I'm repeating myself -- because she doesn't have any characterization or place in the universe at hand.

Except that it is not "Robinson's Alternate Universe". It is called Earth-2 and features Scott, Pratt and Garrick. And your hypothesis is irrelevant (although I can assure you people would not be happy if Earth-2 Bruce had died off camera without any build up) because Robinson only announced the deaths of Lois and the Amazons...who happened to be women, exclusively.

#39 Posted by GingerSnap (24 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp:

Why would there be any build up? She doesn't have characterization or development. That's the whole point.

That's the problem. Her death is only meaningful as a plot device. We don't actually get to see who this woman was in this universe before she is promptly dispatched to contrive drama and pain for Superman. She's nothing more than a prop and a terribly cliched prop at that.

#40 Posted by DH69 (4258 posts) - - Show Bio

DC has to stop shelving their women? Uhhh what about marvel? I'd kill for any of the marvel girls to get a single on going series, atleast DC has their wonderwoman series. Hell Valkyrie just had her little Fearless run and i loved it, but as usaul marvel pulled the plug on it. And now instead of getting a new Ms. Marvel series they're turning her into Captain Marvel despite the fact that she's come out of his shadow and proved that she's her own hero and not just another female rip-off of a male hero. Give me that lady liberators team you teased us with at the end of "the Fearless" Marvel, AND IT HAD BETTER LAST AN ENTIRE YEAR!

#41 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually I would have found it more pertinent to write an article on the current state of the Amazons in the DCU (because, as I explained, Sara's point fails to mention that women died just as much as men on pre-Crisis Earth-2).

On Earth-2, they are now all dead thanks to Robinson.

On New Earth, they went from peaceful feminist utopia to their mythological and misogynistic roots thanks to Azzarello.

#42 Posted by Ganthetsward20 (687 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: thoes characters you listed are ones that have been used in mostly books James Robinson has written. And they were not major people. And I was under the impression a creator that is owned by a company cant get rid of just anyone without approval. Not to mention he's said time and time again that he had a whole other story planned but he was told his series was getting shorted and would be a small series. Star city got rebuilt. That's no different then the deaths in coast city when green lantern killed everyone. Or when

#43 Posted by enigma_2099 (36 posts) - - Show Bio

... maybe they should come up with plot devices that don't involve killing off loved ones?

#44 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@daredevil21134 said:

As long as its Earth 2 I could care less

EXACTLY. More along the mentality people should have.

Why? Because liking Earth-2 is inherently wrong?

#45 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7499 posts) - - Show Bio

I think killing a loved one or a major supportive character is great plot device. Besides, ain't like their going to be dead for long. Just sayin.

#46 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ganthetsward20 said:

@DarthShap: thoes characters you listed are ones that have been used in mostly books James Robinson has written. And they were not major people. And I was under the impression a creator that is owned by a company cant get rid of just anyone without approval. Not to mention he's said time and time again that he had a whole other story planned but he was told his series was getting shorted and would be a small series. Star city got rebuilt. That's no different then the deaths in coast city when green lantern killed everyone. Or when

The thing about them being characters mostly used in Robinson's own books is just not true. Literally, none of them were, not one. He just used their deaths so that the characters could yell JUSTICE and band together.

Indeed, they were not major characters and that explains why the editor probably got the approval that easily but it does not change the fact that Robinson keeps doing it and it just is not good writing. It wasn't then and still isn't.

If all of that was imposed, why would he keep doing it on Earth-2?

And that is the worst thing. He knows people hated Cry for Justice and yet, here he goes again.

#47 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

Was the complete lack of build-up editorially mandated? For all the deaths? Was the ass shot also editorially mandated?

Of course not, the story was crap, no argument there. I was just pointing out it was doomed from inception though.

Except that it is not "Robinson's Alternate Universe". It is called Earth-2 and features Scott, Pratt and Garrick.

It kinda is. Its Earth-2, which is Robinson's vision, which he pitched editorially. It doesn't matter what its called, that's what was there at the inception.

And your hypothesis is irrelevant (although I can assure you people would not be happy if Earth-2 Bruce had died off camera without any build up) because Robinson only announced the deaths of Lois and the Amazons...who happened to be women, exclusively.

Not really. And not nearly as much as this, people jump at the chance to bring Sexism/Racism into everything. With the latter being a particular trend. Besides, when have you seen the Amazons in a Justice League book? They pretty much only appear in Wonder Woman solo, so that point is moot. Lois is the problem. As for my Hypothesis being irrelevant, its not, I'm giving a concrete example of people jumping onto this exclusively because it was done with Women. And you kinda skipped up over the third paragraph, which had no hypothesis.

@GingerSnap said:

@ReVamp:

Why would there be any build up? She doesn't have characterization or development. That's the whole point.

That's the problem. Her death is only meaningful as a plot device. We don't actually get to see who this woman was in this universe before she is promptly dispatched to contrive drama and pain for Superman. She's nothing more than a prop and a terribly cliched prop at that.

If we did, the outrage was much bigger. If she was killed in the first arc, then it would fall into the "Women in Refrigerator" archetype (if it can be called one, too tired) and there would be MUCH bigger uproar.@GingerSnap said:

I'd honestly prefer Lois to be killed off after being introduced and developed rather than her being killed off page to create angst for Superman. It's just so utterly tired and cliche, especially this year which featured a fridged Lois Lane in two other elseworlds. Like I said in another post, I would also have been fine with no Lois Lane in the universe at all, if that's what Robinson wanted because at least it would have been different and it wouldn't have treated Lois like a ready-made corpse for motivational purposes.

See above. But yeah, I understand what you're saying.

I'm mainly puzzled by the lack of creativity at work here. If the purpose behind killing Lois was to create drama and to shape Superman into a darker character, then why not try making Superman (and the world) believe Lois to be dead?

Uhhh. What if that's what's happening? We haven't read the story, it might be a plot twist. Thus the last part of the title "Fans should read before passing judgement". Not saying you're wrong, or trying to attack you, but if that were to be the truth, we wouldn't know, would we?

At least that way Lois could potentially play some sort of extremely minor background role as she tries to save herself and get back to the man she loves or she could simply return miraculously at some far off future date.

Perhaps she will. I don't think so though. The point is though, she's not meant to be part of this universe, why does she have to have a role?

Ok, let me ask a different question. What if Superman was married to an unnamed Woman and she was killed?

Killing off Lois has become the laziest way to mess around with Superman's character and to send the message that a universe is "off" or "darker" or whatever. It's old. It's been done. It's not cool anymore.

Really? When? I can only remember Kingdom Come... But then again I never was the biggest Superman fan, LOL. I'm not saying its original, but does it have to be built up to this "sexism" thing. Can't people come out and instead say "DC, STOP MAKING BAD PLOT" instead of "DC, STOP SHELVING WOMEN?" in this particular case? (Not that Babs is wrong, far from it. But this is a problem with comics in general. Black Panther, Blade, Ms. Marvel should all hold their own titles, but they don't seem to due to being an ethical minority or female. In the end, the problem at work here is that comic readers are close-minded, or at least that's what companies end up unconsciously extrapolating. That's what I gather at least. I don't think its a specific case, but a problem with the whole industry.)

#48 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@ReVamp said:

@daredevil21134 said:

As long as its Earth 2 I could care less

EXACTLY. More along the mentality people should have.

Why? Because liking Earth-2 is inherently wrong?

That would make me a hypocrite, because I absolutely love the idea of Earth 2, much like the Ultimate Universe.

#49 Posted by DarthShap (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I get the feeling you do not know what Earth-2 is. It is nothing like Ultimate DCU. That is why the fact that Garrick, Pratt and Scott are there is kind of relevant. It is not a new take on the DCU and that is why people care, because Earth-2 means something and not "Robinson's DCU".

Also, I do not get why the Amazons would be irrelevant. Just because they do not appear in JLA/JSA titles means that they should be killed altogether? As for your hypothesis, yes, it would not be sexist. It does not mean people would like. What can appear to be sexist that the only people who got killed are women.

#50 Posted by inferiorego (21112 posts) - - Show Bio

Lois Lane was best in her own series during the Silver Age, even if it was called "Superman's Girlfriend: Lois Lane"

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