@Billy Batson: Fingers crossed

Comparisons to Shredder have actually made me like the costume a little bit.

You know. I wonder if DC is going to do a toddler Cass Cain as the daughter of Shiva and Nightwing.

Edit: So I guess, Cass Grayson? Or raised/trained by Cain and that's why she took his name?

@fodigg said:

You know. I wonder if DC is going to do a toddler Cass Cain as the daughter of Shiva and Nightwing.

I was wondering the same thing. Then I thought the fans of Nightwing might get pissed if he has a kid, but if we've learned anything about the New 52, its gonna do what it wants regardless of fan backlash. I myself would be okay with it if its the only way to get Cass back. However in my opinion being being the daughter of Nightwing isnt anywhere near as cool as being the daughter of David Cain.

Nightwing's my fav, but he's not exactly known for his...err...chasteness? I don't think that this would be entirely out of the question. It's not ideal, but how badass would the baby of Nightwing and Shiva be?

@Mercy_ said:

Nightwing's my fav, but he's not exactly known for his...err...chasteness? I don't think that this would be entirely out of the question. It's not ideal, but how badass would the baby of Nightwing and Shiva be?

@Gambler said:

@fodigg said:

You know. I wonder if DC is going to do a toddler Cass Cain as the daughter of Shiva and Nightwing.

I was wondering the same thing. Then I thought the fans of Nightwing might get pissed if he has a kid, but if we've learned anything about the New 52, its gonna do what it wants regardless of fan backlash. I myself would be okay with it if its the only way to get Cass back. However in my opinion being being the daughter of Nightwing isnt anywhere near as cool as being the daughter of David Cain.

Daughter of Nightwing, Shiva, and David Cain. They could make it so Nightwing was just the "bio-dad". You could hit all the same themes with David Cain without Cass being his biological daughter if he still raised her.

@fodigg said:

Daughter of Nightwing, Shiva, and David Cain. They could make it so Nightwing was just the "bio-dad". You could hit all the same themes with David Cain without Cass being his biological daughter if he still raised her.

This idea is fully endorsed by Mercy.

Hell, knowing Shiva (and the writers' propensity for soap opera antics) it's entirely possible that Dick wouldn't even know.

@fodigg said:

You could hit all the same themes with David Cain without Cass being his biological daughter if he still raised her.

Almost, but not quite. Theres something about having the "actual blood" of two of the World's most prolific killers running through your veins. Having the same genetic make-up. Being trained by Bruce Lee isnt the same as being his son, being trained by David Cain isnt the same as having his DNA ingrained in your makeup. May not matter to some and like I said, if being the daughter of Dick Grayson is the only way to get Cass back then I'm all for it. I just dont agree being trained by Cain is the same as being his child.

@Gambler: I disagree. Cain's big "gift" to Cass wasn't impressive genes--that's mostly where Shiva came in and if the replacement is Grayson that's still good stock (just ask the Court of Owls!)--his big contribution was his vicious non-verbal training techniques from a very young age. I don't really go for the whole "bloodline" bit. Just look at the Robins. I don't see Damian as "more of a son" to Bruce than any of the others. Remember, Cain's training was all encompassing and from infancy. He would be raising her as well as training her.

Don't cry over looks, Shiva fans. She already has the best feat in the DC Universe (latest Nightwing issue). Penguin flees his base of operations because he hears Lady Shiva is heading to the city.

That's right, she made the mighty Penguin scared.

@fodigg said:

@Gambler: I disagree. Cain's big "gift" to Cass wasn't impressive genes--that's mostly where Shiva came in and if the replacement is Grayson that's still good stock (just ask the Court of Owls!)--his big contribution was his vicious non-verbal training techniques from a very young age. I don't really go for the whole "bloodline" bit. Just look at the Robins. I don't see Damian as "more of a son" to Bruce than any of the others. Remember, Cain's training was all encompassing and from infancy. He would be raising her as well as training her.

Thats okay, you have an opinion and I'm not really out to change it. I would however point out that, at least in Cass' case, genetics was established as the primary reason the training succeed. David Cain had tried it on several children even from infancy and they all failed. Its explained on panel in Cass' series that genetics, his genetics, was the key. So when you say his gift wasnt his impressive genes thats actually an inacurate statement. It was his genes as well as Shivas that made Cass. Gave Cass the ability to not only survive the training that no other child before her could (except Mad Dog who was Cain's first attempt and an abomination) but to master it. The Robin thing is a matter of preference I guess. I actually do see Damian as more of a son and a stronger legacy simply because he is Wayne bloodline. David Cain tried training dozens of children from infancy and they all failed. Now of course in the New 52 it can be worked around to fit an updated version but it still wouldnt be the same. Cass' conflict with her father and her legacy is what defined her entire character Pre- 52.

@k4tzm4n: Spoiler alert dude lol

@Gambler: Thanks for the scans, I didn't actually realize it was the emphasize on Cain's side, I thought it was on Shiva's. That said, it would be a pretty small and easy fix to change that. And I generally get uncomfortable with "bloodline" based legacies, the whole "one true king" or "return of the king" stuff. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that people are born to X, where X is anything from 'rule' to 'be Batman'. Even in Star Wars that bothered me.

@fodigg: I feel ya, it could be an easy fix. Cant lie, I'm just a Cass/Shiva/Cain fanboy and I'm not the biggest Nightwing fan. I'd rather Cass be the daughter of the Red Hood Jason Todd then f'n Nightwing :P I dont think it'll happen to be honest but it would be kinda funny. Seeing as how Dick and Cass hated eachother in her own series.

@Gambler: I thought he was only riding her case after she got brainwashed and killed a bunch of people. I don't remember him giving her much interaction at all prior to that.

@fodigg: She kicked him through a wall for leaving Babs, and in Outsiders after Batman had offered to adopt her (only to die Batman RIP) and she started building a team they threw down hardcore until Alfred broke it up. And although it was later written that Bruce sent her to (Japan? China? Sorry it was somewhere out there, no offense meant) Dick didnt know that and made no attempt to bring her into the fold after Bruce was thought dead. He didnt even ask about her when he found Steph Brown in the Batgirl costume lol

@Gambler said:

@fodigg: She kicked him through a wall for leaving Babs, and in Outsiders after Batman had offered to adopt her (only to die Batman RIP) and she started building a team they threw down hardcore until Alfred broke it up. And although it was later written that Bruce sent her to (Japan? China? Sorry it was somewhere out there, no offense meant) Dick didnt know that and made no attempt to bring her into the fold after Bruce was thought dead. He didnt even ask about her when he found Steph Brown in the Batgirl costume lol

Well, I'm not familiar on the timing for the kicking through wall thing, but the rest was after her "evil teen titan" phase.

@fodigg said:

@Gambler said:

@fodigg: She kicked him through a wall for leaving Babs, and in Outsiders after Batman had offered to adopt her (only to die Batman RIP) and she started building a team they threw down hardcore until Alfred broke it up. And although it was later written that Bruce sent her to (Japan? China? Sorry it was somewhere out there, no offense meant) Dick didnt know that and made no attempt to bring her into the fold after Bruce was thought dead. He didnt even ask about her when he found Steph Brown in the Batgirl costume lol

Well, I'm not familiar on the timing for the kicking through wall thing, but the rest was after her "evil teen titan" phase.

The kick was prior but it doesnt really matter why they hate eachother, just that they did. Nightwing didnt believe she was brainwashed, said she was a born killer blah blah blah.

@Gambler said:

@k4tzm4n: Spoiler alert dude lol

Eh, it's not really a big deal. It's just teasing the fact she's heading to Gotham, and obviously everyone here knows that. I just thought it was hilarious they made it known to readers by having Penguin introduce it.

"Damn, Shiva's coming to town? PEACE!"

All this Shiva talk makes me miss Alpha and Mad Dog. Too bad the name "Mad Dog" was wasted on a character that literally only lasted one issue over in Suicide Squad.

@k4tzm4n: I was only moderately serious. Penguin is such a useless character lol I'm curious to see how this plays out. They've obviously changed aspects of Shiva yet she's still well known and got the Penguin kickin rocks lmao

@Gambler: Penguin vs Shiva. He's got an umbrella (no modifcations) and a monocle. Shiva is unarmed. In a dojo... to the death!

Fight of the goddamn century if you ask me.

I imagine it would look just like 11:45

@k4tzm4n: LOL knowing DC Penguin would be armed with a chair and win.

@Gambler said:

@k4tzm4n: LOL knowing DC Penguin would be armed with a chair and win.

Early preview of the next Nightwing:

@Gambler: Ugh. I hate when they do stuff like this. Dick hates Cass for being a born killer but is BFFs with Damian? Tim hates Damian for being a vicious psychopath but is BFFs with Jason? Be consistent DC.

@fodigg: Agreed

@k4tzm4n: HA! That aint bad at all lol

O_O

Okay my hands are literally shaking as I type this I'm so excited. Yeah Mods can be fanboys to, and usually I contain mine but I cant....are they gonna do it? Are they fiiiiiiiinally ready to admit what I've been saying for years? As we all know by now Shiva returns in issue 13 of Nightwing, the next issue. So at the end of issue 12 we get this little nugget

Who actually handed Bruce his first defeat in a fight?

@Remi said:

@Ravager4 said:

@Remi said:

Maybe she'll job to Dick now :O

That sounded really dirty

LOL :D

LMAO.

@Gambler: Me thinks that Shiva's going to be heavily involved in Grayson's origin (maybe lovers?) and she beats the living sh!t out of Batman when they meet, maybe when the latter's looking for Grayson.