Geoff Johns Hates Progress: Kyle Rayners Lament

Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio

 
Catchy title isn’t it? I am sure that everything I am about to write has been written before. Yet, I still feel compelled to write it. Perhaps I am just being a contrarian, because he is just beloved at this time, but Geoff Johns really pisses me off.

I am sure he is a wonderful person, I do not know him, nor does he owe me money. And I honestly do like his writing. Yet his incessant need to take huge leaps backwards baffles and infuriates me. What I am referring to is the huge back seat given to Kyle Rayner (and Wally West for the same matter).

There I was, a hyperactive comic kid. And since I was able to read and grasp concepts, I knew a few adamantine rules: Wrestling was 100% real, Han Solo was the coolest man in the galaxy and Green Lantern was the best superhero ever (with only Thor coming in a very close 2). I grew up reading the adventures of Hal Jordan, be it solo, with the JLA, or the Corp. And all this hero worship culminated in the destruction of Coast City and the rise of Parallax.

I.

Was.

Crushed.

Then you get this punk, Kyle Rayner, slinging the ring. Like this right-place-right-time idiot could ever compare to Hal freaking Jordan?!

And I will be damned if the strangest thing didn’t happen to me. He won me over. Like the original Spiderman, here is this young man, not much more than a boy, granted these amazing abilities. And he was fallible. He was relatable. He made mistakes and came back from them. He suffered loss. He fought, tooth and nail to come out of Jordan’s shadow and grow into his own hero. And through the years Kyle became more and more my favorite Green Lantern. Whether he was fighting crime or taking learning lessons from the Lanterns of old over a beer at Warriors, Kyle was a hero through and through.

He won the respect of his peers, and even Batman. He has juggled cosmic power and his freelance art.

He rebuilt the Corp. He brought back the Guardians. He kept the emerald beacon light burning.

He was a hero I wanted to read and know. And then came along Geoff bloody Johns, and his rebirth of Jordan.

I was not like the other comic nerds, I did not rejoice when Jordan came back. Because I knew there was no way ‘they’ would allow Jordan to be around but not the spotlight like Alan Scott. I knew it was only a matter of time. They would not just let Jordan be the Specter. So, Jordan is back and gets the Green Lantern book. And Kyle gets put in the Green Lantern Corp. Sure they call him “Torch Bearer” and Honor Guard. But through the Sinestro War, the War of the Light, and Blackest Night, little by little all that was Kyle got stripped away. He was given lateral promotion and work titles, which in time led to nothing. People dropped the honorifics. They forgot the land they stood upon, the power in the rings, their very lives and existence was due to this back alley rat.  

Now he is back to being the kid. Gardner, Stewart, Jordan, all see him as “the kid” again. There was a scene in the rebirth when Jordan is commenting on the other Earth Lanterns style. And Kyle was perceived a kid and artist who was never happy with his constructs, always fixing. And it made Kyle look like a joke.

So here we are. Kyle is the wishy washy second or third stringer little brother tagging along. Not the man who inherited Ion’s Godhood. Not the Man who brought back which was once lost. Nor any of his other worthy and heroic accolades. Nope, he is just the whipping boy who had the misfortune to not be Geoff Johns favorite. And the same can be said for Wally West. Wally was great, but he was not Barry. So you better move over, because here comes Geoff John’s mighty pen of yesteryear. 

Do I love Hal and Barry? Yes. But there comes a time when things must progress, not regress. And the last few years of DC feels like the 50 reunion tour of the Rolling Stones or Hulk Hogan’s 100 come back to wrestling.

Lord only knows what is going to happen during the reboot. I just hope Tony Bedard champions Kyle and gives him the proper respect he is owed. I hope Green Lantern: New Guardians is worth it. I hope it portrays the hero that Kyle is.

I hope.

 

 

#1 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio

agreed but when you think about it........Johns has betrayed Hal every bit as much as he screwed Kyle.......a good majority of fans hate Hal now and some of the few storylines hal was the center of have virtually NO weight now.  Johns hasnt done any work to improve any of the flaws in Hal's character, he  (like every Hal writer before him) chose to fall back on cheap gimmicks rather than shape Hal into a more interesting hero.  and now with the reboot upon us we all know why......... 
 
 

Green Lantern #1     
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#2 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, Sinestro as a GL is a step backwards. But, Jordan has fallen into that crazy cult status, there is very little you could do to ruin him. Like Batman. In his absence, his 'legend' grew. Kyle was still growing when they pushed him aside. Jordan did his thing, became every color ring there was, sold some books and action figs. But looking at the cover up of the upcoming JLA comics looks like Jordan will be doing fine.
 

#3 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@gibson said:
Again, Sinestro as a GL is a step backwards. But, Jordan has fallen into that crazy cult status, there is very little you could do to ruin him. Like Batman. In his absence, his 'legend' grew. Kyle was still growing when they pushed him aside. Jordan did his thing, became every color ring there was, sold some books and action figs. But looking at the cover up of the upcoming JLA comics looks like Jordan will be doing fine.
 
i agree completely, im just stating how pissed and suprised that Johns used Hal simply to push Sinestro forward.  as for the that cover...... its an arc set in the past........johns admited he was gonna be sh***ing all over Hal in the gl series since he is  no longer a gl. hes supposed to get arrested in the first issue apparently....
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#4 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio

**SIGH** 
 
Any word on poor Wally West?

#5 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@gibson said:
**SIGH**   Any word on poor Wally West?
not a damn thing..........
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#6 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio

SHAZBOT!! Oh well.

#7 Posted by _jackbauer (157 posts) - - Show Bio

Kyle is just an emo artist - hardly an interesting superhero personality.

#8 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Where did Wally go after Flash: Rebirth? Is he even around anymore? 

#9 Posted by UpUpAndAway (191 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally LOVE Geoff Johns and Hal Jordan together. I absolutely adore Johns' GL run, but I do see where you come from and understand your argument. Kyle was interrupted in his growth. I understand that, BUT i wasn't there for it, and maybe that's why. I, like many people I know in real life started reading and loving Green Lantern only after Geoff Johns started the project. It's my understanding in fact that sales were down in GL before he got on. Now look at it. GL s are up there with the A-list again. Once again, I get why people would be upset at their favorite character being overshadowed, but blaming Hal isn't the solution. Hal's a plenty interesting character. People always complain about Hal fanboys, but there are the same amount of Kyle fanboys out there. I guess we're just doomed to battle for all eternity then. I personally can't read pre-Geoff Johns green lantern stories starring Kyle Rayner. I just don't enjoy them. I don't know why.

#10 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio

Something to do with the Speed Force, i dunno. All i know he isn't Barry so the powers that be don't care. 
 
@_jackbauer
 
That's your opinion, and that's fine. I grew up of Jordan. But Kyle was the one sine 1994 who has had a voice and depth of character. I just like him better. And he came out in the 90's, so he wasn't emo, he was 'Alternative'. But no more so that Spiderman was. Or any young superhero. I just like him better.

#11 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@UpUpAndAway said:

I personally LOVE Geoff Johns and Hal Jordan together. I absolutely adore Johns' GL run, but I do see where you come from and understand your argument. Kyle was interrupted in his growth. I understand that, BUT i wasn't there for it, and maybe that's why. I, like many people I know in real life started reading and loving Green Lantern only after Geoff Johns started the project. It's my understanding in fact that sales were down in GL before he got on. Now look at it. GL s are up there with the A-list again. Once again, I get why people would be upset at their favorite character being overshadowed, but blaming Hal isn't the solution. Hal's a plenty interesting character. People always complain about Hal fanboys, but there are the same amount of Kyle fanboys out there. I guess we're just doomed to battle for all eternity then. I personally can't read pre-Geoff Johns green lantern stories starring Kyle Rayner. I just don't enjoy them. I don't know why.

no ones blaming Hal. just johns. im a Hal fanboy tried and true but there is a lot dc could have done with him if they ever truly cared to put in the effort
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#12 Posted by UpUpAndAway (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt: True. It does seem at this point that Sinestro is a more fleshed out character doesn't it? They've examined a mighty many sides of that guy by now.

#13 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio

@upupandaway
 
I really really recommend going back one day and checking out the trades of Kyles run in GL. Especially Ron Marz and Judd Winick. But we all have our favs. Geoff Johns brought back Hal, made people happy, nad sold a lot of books and merch. And i liked some of it. Hell i liked lot of it. I just wish it had not been at the expense of the years and years of building Kyle into an A list hero, only to have him 2nd fiddle. 
 
As one of my best friends puts it: "The Jordan i grew up on and Jordan now are like my transformers of old vs.  what Michael Bay did. Very pretty, and a big spectacle. Ultimately meaningless. "

#14 Posted by UpUpAndAway (191 posts) - - Show Bio

@gibson: Hopefully the reboot will bring something beneficial to both of them. Kyle's getting New Guardians and Hal can finally take the ring off for a while and think.

#15 Posted by danhimself (22718 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think that Johns was ever really concerned with pushing Hal's character forward but with using Hal to push Sinestro's character further...if you look at Johns' runs on most books he does an excellent job of redefining villains....Lex Luthor in his short run on Adventure Comics, Black Hand and Sinestro in Green Lantern, and he's said before that he's planning on giving the same treatment to Black Manta in the upcoming Aquaman book

#16 Posted by RScottH08 (249 posts) - - Show Bio

 
i agree with u gibson, kyle has been favorite gl since i first read on him and it does seem sad now that all he can do is co star in the glc comics, but as a fan im just really hopin he is used to his full potential in the new guardians, i think thats all we can do as fans

#17 Posted by dondasch (921 posts) - - Show Bio

Youre lamenting Kyle Rayner of all people when John Stewart hasn't been accorded anywhere near the respect he deserves.  I could care less about Kyle.

#18 Posted by entropy_aegis (15445 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
I don't think that Johns was ever really concerned with pushing Hal's character forward but with using Hal to push Sinestro's character further...if you look at Johns' runs on most books he does an excellent job of redefining villains....Lex Luthor in his short run on Adventure Comics, Black Hand and Sinestro in Green Lantern, and he's said before that he's planning on giving the same treatment to Black Manta in the upcoming Aquaman book
Deathstroke too.
#19 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
I don't think that Johns was ever really concerned with pushing Hal's character forward but with using Hal to push Sinestro's character further...if you look at Johns' runs on most books he does an excellent job of redefining villains....Lex Luthor in his short run on Adventure Comics, Black Hand and Sinestro in Green Lantern, and he's said before that he's planning on giving the same treatment to Black Manta in the upcoming Aquaman book
thats exactly what im saying....and that pisses me off to no extent
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#20 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@dondasch said:
Youre lamenting Kyle Rayner of all people when John Stewart hasn't been accorded anywhere near the respect he deserves.  I could care less about Kyle.
yes we're lamenting Kyle who was thrown into obscurity for no reason. Kyle had proven himself and had seemingly cemented himself as Green Lantern.
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#21 Posted by dondasch (921 posts) - - Show Bio

Cementing or not, I don't feel that he's anywhere near John Stewart.  John's been around much longer than Kyle, and should have accorded a position of respect long before Kyle even came along.  I don't see that Kyle is all that interesting of a character, in my opinion.

#22 Posted by CodeSaint (159 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be in Kyle Rayner character profile. 
 
But I agree with you,it's bad to see the character poorly used.Good thing that Bedard who will write the New Guardians post Flashpoint comic is a good writer(for what I've heard)and a fan of the character.So the chances of Kyle having his girlfriend killed again are now very few.This was worse than when Joe Q made Spiderman single again.Not only the writers forget the importance of Kyle,in universe he's feats are also forgotten.People usually hate Kyle because of he always is made as a secondary character in current GL stories and his development don't match his original personality.

#23 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35130 posts) - - Show Bio

What does it say about me that I want Bruce Wayne, Diana Prince, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark to ether die (and stay dead) or retire and take a mentor position so that Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Mon El/Conner Kent, Kyle Rayner, Wally West and Bucky Barnes can replays them all for good?   

#24 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio
@spiderbat87
Just means you wanna see progression. And I kind of want to as well. I want to see continuity. I understand there are some charcaters who are so iconic, that they may always be (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman). But I would like to see some progression. Like Steve Rodgers take up a Nick Fury position and let someone else stay Cap for like, 10+years.  
 
Ohhh...Nick Fury takes Steve under his wing and shows him all his secrets because the infinity formula is wearing off. I would read that!
#25 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35130 posts) - - Show Bio
@gibson said:
@spiderbat87: Just means you wanna see progression. And I kind of want to as well. I want to see continuity. I understand there are some charcaters who are so iconic, that they may always be (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman). But I would like to see some progression. Like Steve Rodgers take up a Nick Fury position and let someone else stay Cap for like, 10+years.   Ohhh...Nick Fury takes Steve under his wing and shows him all his secrets because the infinity formula is wearing off. I would read that!
Thats exactly where it was going until they stupidly killed of Bucky
#26 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio
@CodeSaint
If i knew how i would I din't do it when i first wrote it, and i don't know if you can go back and put it ina  character profile. Clues?
#27 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio
@spiderbat87
SHAZBOT! That would have been cool.
#28 Posted by CodeSaint (159 posts) - - Show Bio
@gibson: Someone must have already changed it. 
 
Yes most people that hate Kyle doesn't percive that's just because most writers use him as connonfodder and don't want to him develop as a character,like they don't want him to have a suceful live in love and work just like Marvel does to Spidey.But he was written well in Morrison's JLA and the Green Lantern Corps Comic.
#29 Posted by batmanary (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@danhimself said:
I don't think that Johns was ever really concerned with pushing Hal's character forward but with using Hal to push Sinestro's character further...if you look at Johns' runs on most books he does an excellent job of redefining villains....Lex Luthor in his short run on Adventure Comics, Black Hand and Sinestro in Green Lantern, and he's said before that he's planning on giving the same treatment to Black Manta in the upcoming Aquaman book
This can be seen as a good thing. It redefines their characters. And he did defined Hal's character, as well, by giving him a backstory. Prior to that, he really didn't have one. Also, Kyle was in GL Corps, which was my favourite GL title, so you know, that's there, and he's going to be the lead in the New Guardians, so that's there too.
#30 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@spiderbat87 said:
What does it say about me that I want Bruce Wayne, Diana Prince, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark to ether die (and stay dead) or retire and take a mentor position so that Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Mon El/Conner Kent, Kyle Rayner, Wally West and Bucky Barnes can replays them all for good?   
it says that you don't know how to spell "replace"
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#31 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35130 posts) - - Show Bio
@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
@spiderbat87 said:
What does it say about me that I want Bruce Wayne, Diana Prince, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark to ether die (and stay dead) or retire and take a mentor position so that Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Mon El/Conner Kent, Kyle Rayner, Wally West and Bucky Barnes can replays them all for good?   
it says that you don't know how to spell "replace"
That'l be because I'm dyslexic 
#32 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio
@spiderbat87 said:
@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
@spiderbat87 said:
What does it say about me that I want Bruce Wayne, Diana Prince, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark to ether die (and stay dead) or retire and take a mentor position so that Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Mon El/Conner Kent, Kyle Rayner, Wally West and Bucky Barnes can replays them all for good?   
it says that you don't know how to spell "replace"
That'l be because I'm dyslexic 
sorry. i was just yanking your chain...i should have gone through better lengths to show you that. im truly sorry.
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#33 Edited by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio
@gibson said:

 Han Solo was the coolest man in the galaxy 

IS. Han Solo IS the coolest man in the galaxy. Also acceptable: Han Solo WILL ALWAYS BE the coolest man in the galaxy. 
 
As for Johns, he's got a serious fetish for silver age continuity porn. I'm indifferent about Kyle because Stewart is my favorite lantern, but this nonsense with demoting Wally for Barry is just ridiculous. Wally is the Flash and Barry is just a part of his backstory. 
 
@spiderbat87 said: 
What does it say about me that I want Bruce Wayne, Diana Prince, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark to ether die (and stay dead) or retire and take a mentor position so that Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Mon El/Conner Kent, Kyle Rayner, Wally West and Bucky Barnes can replays them all for good?   
I'd love that. But then I'm all about legacy characters. 
#34 Posted by gibson (45 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg
You are right sir, i was only referencing my childhood ;-)  I like Stewart, and i grew up with Hal and John. But I have always liked Kyle, and what he stood for and accomplished. Johns basically shat on his legacy because of his silver age hard on. And now his turning every villain into a Magneto esque sympathetic villain.
#35 Edited by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright now I'll say this right off. Guy Gardner is my absolute favorite Lantern. That being said, I'll admit I like Kyle. Since his first series I've grown to respect his character and even appreciate him. Kyle has an imagination that puts every other GL to shame, and he brought the Corps back. Then all of a sudden Jordan's back and Kyle, who I had grown to enjoy reading, gets pushed into the corner all to make Hal the big star. Now I can see how Hal Jordan is important, he was the first human to be in the Corps. But that doesn't excuse the fact that Kyle did things that Hal never could have, and actually had a personality! Kyle was close to being a favorite character before bad writing took over. If I had written Rebirth I would have kept Hal dead, and let Kyle get the spotlight!!!!

#36 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13676 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr.Deadpool : Then how would it have been a rebirth?

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#37 Posted by Deprive (49 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't like Kyle at first but over the course of his run he earned the title of Green Lantern. I don't like how DC treated the 2nd Gen of heroes (the original Teen Titans age group). Dead and or forgotten.

I still say they should have made Kyle Hal's illegitimate son. There were plot elements that could have led to this:

1) Kyle comes from a military family (the Mom could have run into Hal at a base)

2) Kyle's Dad left on a secret mission ( he leaves after he finds out about the affair)

3) The ring Gannet gave Kyle was Hal's ring (Hal's ring was the only other ring that could make other rings at the time)

4) Hal's ring was keyed to his DNA

5) Kyle has a way with the ladies just like Hal

I know its a reach. but if preventing Barry Allen's mothers from dying prevents Crisis on Infinate Earths from happening anything is possible.

#38 Posted by Onemoreposter (4101 posts) - - Show Bio

@gibson said:

They forgot the land they stood upon, the power in the rings, their very lives and existence was due to this back alley rat.

Actually, Kyle didn't recreate Oa. Pieface did. On that note...

I agree with just about everything you said. I hate Johns. It was even worse what he did to Wally and Barry than to Kyle and Hal overall IMO. However, yellow space cockroach is the worst thing to be written into comics history EVER.

#39 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@gibson: I understand how you relate more to the legacy characters, like Kyle and Wally. For me, those guys have been GL and Flash for my entire comic reading experience. Having said that, Geoff Johns, from everything I've read, has great respect for this history of the DCU, but is also one of the key players in the New 52, which has greatly expanded the concept of WHAT the DCU is. If Geoff hated Wally or Kyle, you wouldn't be getting a New Guardians title.

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