Why Earth 2 Might Not Succeed

Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

It's trying too hard. It's trying too hard to be two different things. The final nail in the coffin, the moment of realization came when I saw Earth 2 Superman's design. It looks cool and all, a little too stylized to work for the Earth 0 Superman, but pretty cool. But it's the worst of the Earth 2 designs, especially considering the description.

I've said a lot of things about the prior Earth 2 designs, good and bad. A Batman who kills kind of guts the entire 'mood' Earth 2 used to convey, and many fans assumed would convey. It was an awesome design, but not an 'Earth 2' design. Supergirl's gave me no strong feelings one way or the other about 'Earth 2', but looked kind of nice. (As a design. The art style was bad.) Robin's gave me exactly what I was expecting to feel from 'Earth 2.'

That said, all of this can be thrown out the window because 'NEW 52!' However, this line of thinking can only go so far. It's been confirmed to include classic JSA characters like Jay Garrick, and Alan Scott. THIS is why Earth 2 WILL go for a certain degree of what it used to be. Jay Garrick and Alan Scott are characters who rely on nostalgia far more than others. When I was a new reader, it took me a while to grow accustomed to them, and actually develop any interest in them whatsoever. Because I KNEW they were relics. They were the outdated prototypes for Wally West, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner; etc. They're appeal relies on nostalgic value more than their current counterparts. This isn't to say they should be eliminated or that they're not interesting, but its much harder for new readers to latch onto them because they have the newer, more hip and modern versions more readily accessible and out there. Earth 2 is a universe for old fans. There's no two ways around it. Thus, they definitely have to keep a certain degree of nostalgic 'Golden Age' style to it, because Earth 2 is a series for the people who already want it. It isn't meant to reach for new fans as strongly as the rest because of what it is.

So why does this make Superman's design so terrible? He looks too young. He's slim, sleek, hair gelled up, etc. So why is Lois Lane dead? If she was murdered, it's the final nail in the coffin, and it will mean the failure of Earth 2 as a series. Because if Lois was murdered, Bruce is willing to kill, the Amazons are all dead; it means this is a darker and edgier universe. Which would be fine IF IT WASN'T EARTH 2. Because we know we're getting Jay Garrick and Alan Scott and such, Earth 2 already has a bigger hand in the 'old fan' pool then it does the 'new fan' pool. But if its all darker and edgier, a lot of the 'old fan' pool will dry up. I'm willing to give it a shot no matter what; I'm not saying it won't be good if its darker and edgier. The problem is that it wont SELL as well as it should because it's trying too hard to balance nostalgia with new ideas. New readers want new ideas but not the retro characters. Old readers want the retro characters, but not the darker and edgier stuff because it goes against the very core of the retro characters.

Lois being dead could have worked, but Superman would need to look OLD. Gray hair and such; essentially THE SUPERMAN OF EARTH 2 FROM INFINITE CRISIS. Why? BECAUSE LOIS DIED OF OLD AGE. Superman outlived her, but in a world that old fans assume and want Earth 2 to be, this would make Superman more of a wise old 'Morgan Freeman' man, but if she was murdered, he's going to be more brooding and short tempered. He'll have lost his anchor to his humanity. And more importantly, we already have a more brooding Superman over in Earth 1. But this Superman looks FAR too young to have outlived Lois Lane, so the best thing we can hope for is her dying of natural causes.

LONG STORY SHORT: I'm not saying Earth 2 will be 'bad' because of all these darker and edgier things. True it won't be the 'Earth 2' many people want, but it doesn't mean it will automatically be bad just because it isn't exactly what you want. But it DOES mean the series won't have a strong chance at escaping cancellation because its trying too hard to reach for 2 audiences, will alienating both of them at least a bit. James Robinson is great, and he seems like he'd be a great fit for this series. But it wont be able to achieve very strong sales because a lot of old fans won't want to give it a chance, and a lot of new fans I think won't stick with it. I've defended the intelligence of New Readers in the wake of a lot of old fans saying the Multiverse would be hard to understand. But I do think they'll be confused by Earth 2. The premise seems like its leaning more towards the Ultimate Marvel Universe. New Fans will see a very similar and familiar Trinity, but then a radically different Green Lantern and Flash. These two ideas just don't mix well, and there won't be a strong following.

EDIT: Take all of what I said, and tone down the enthusiasm a bit. I don't feel like going into each and every sentence to tweak it to specifically reduce the intensity of my conjectures. The Optimist convinced me of a greater potential. (Not that I ever personally thought the series would definitely be bad.)

@TheOptimist said:

There is a story to be told, apparently one which requires the conflicting ideologies of a more violent tendency within the Justice League that could run in conflict with the more classic portrayal of golden age heroism.

^ Any old fans who doubt the integrity of Earth 2, take a look at this. ^

#1 Posted by The Poet (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hope it well. It is an interesting idea, though some deals I agree aren't as present...

All depends on the presentation (no pressure writers!)

Moderator
#2 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Poet: Sadly, I really don't think any writer could completely save this, its kind of being set up to be screwed from the start. Look at how many old readers give up each time a new design is released. And its not JUST the super stubborn, some hung on to a ray of hope for a few designs before they gave up. And it'll have to be REALLY good to hang onto all the new readers it wants.

Suddenly, I almost want it to be bad so I wont be disappointed by the (imo) looming cancelation.

#3 Posted by _Black (2302 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Superman's new design. I don't care whether it looks "retro" or not. I don't think that just because Superman does not look old equates that Lois had to have been murdered. He ages slower than humans. I can see where you're coming from and I don't like how DC is showcasing the Trinity instead of the JSA, but let's not jump to conclusions here.

#4 Posted by The_Tree (7469 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually think that this comic will be the 2nd highest bought series of the New 52 second wave. If people were so quick to accept the changes made by the relaunch in the regular universe, I don't think they'll be too disturbed by the changes made to Earth-2.

#5 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@_Black: You raise a good point, yes. I know a young Superman doesn't MEAN Lois was murdered, but it does make it more likely. I mean, we KNOW Superman DOES age. Look at the Traditional Earth 2 Superman, look at Kingdom Come, look at Batman Beyond; he does get old.

And then we have context clues. "What would you have to do to teach Superman to kill?" "Who will Batman kill?" "Wonder Woman is already the last Amazon of this world and she is determined to avenge her sisters…at whatever cost.”

It all points to a more aggressive and vengeful Trinity; which implies Lois was murdered. I think its possible losing Lois might break his tether to his humanity, but it just isn't as likely; especially consider he just doesn't look like someone who out aged Lois based on how we've seen Superman age before. I think the best would be a death of natural causes, but I think that's still pretty unlikely because there's no 'soul' for a story behind it. It would be more likely to make Superman give up then it would to make him give up; because he'd see the futility, that no matter how many criminals he punches, there's some thing he just can't stop.

#6 Posted by Iron Apollo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm buying earth 2, but I don't invest much into the regular DCnU.

#7 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree. If it does fail, it won't be because of this.

Ultimate worked well, and its pretty much Earth-2.

#8 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: That's not the issue, the problem is that this is only partially like the Marvel Ultimate Universe, it's half that and half Golden Age Style Earth 2, and because it's 'Earth 2' it has expectations of it from a lot of old fans, and if it's too much like the Ultimate Universe it has no chance of living up to the expectations of old fans. Ultimate Universe didn't have this problem.

#9 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch: I respect your opinion, but I think you might be jumping to conclusions too quickly. We have yet to learn more about Earth 2 and even then, give it time.

Moderator
#10 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch said:

That's not the issue, the problem is that this is only partially like the Marvel Ultimate Universe,

You know this because you've read it, obviously? You can't make these assumption based on 4 character designs, that aren't even from the artist that's going to be drawing the series.

it's half that and half Golden Age Style Earth 2,

Same as above.

and because it's 'Earth 2' it has expectations of it from a lot of old fans,

Not really. It has less expectations than the "New 52" and the latter got accepted just fine.

and if it's too much like the Ultimate Universe it has no chance of living up to the expectations of old fans.
  1. Old fans don't have expectations.
  2. This is all about new fans. The people who actually are going to buy this because they read a bunch of golden age shiet, are such a minority that they're not really mentionable. Of course, many people are going to get it because they like the prospect of Earth 2, but that's not the same.
Ultimate Universe didn't have this problem.

There's no problem.

Also, you make a bunch of assumption, like its Clark Kent (could be Lois's Son) or that he's younger than Superman, just because you think it looks like it.

#11 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33440 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@The Mighty Monarch said:

That's not the issue, the problem is that this is only partially like the Marvel Ultimate Universe,

You know this because you've read it, obviously? You can't make these assumption based on 4 character designs, that aren't even from the artist that's going to be drawing the series.

it's half that and half Golden Age Style Earth 2,

Same as above.

and because it's 'Earth 2' it has expectations of it from a lot of old fans,

Not really. It has less expectations than the "New 52" and the latter got accepted just fine.

and if it's too much like the Ultimate Universe it has no chance of living up to the expectations of old fans.
  1. Old fans don't have expectations.
  2. This is all about new fans. The people who actually are going to buy this because they read a bunch of golden age shiet, are such a minority that they're not really mentionable. Of course, many people are going to get it because they like the prospect of Earth 2, but that's not the same.
Ultimate Universe didn't have this problem.

There's no problem.

Also, you make a bunch of assumption, like its Clark Kent (could be Lois's Son) or that he's younger than Superman, just because you think it looks like it.

Well in the solicit said he had lost the love of his life Lois Lane so I think it is Clark 
 
@The Mighty Monarch:  Earth-1 Superman is not really brooding
#12 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@The Mighty Monarch said:

That's not the issue, the problem is that this is only partially like the Marvel Ultimate Universe,

You know this because you've read it, obviously? You can't make these assumption based on 4 character designs, that aren't even from the artist that's going to be drawing the series.

it's half that and half Golden Age Style Earth 2,

Same as above.

and because it's 'Earth 2' it has expectations of it from a lot of old fans,

Not really. It has less expectations than the "New 52" and the latter got accepted just fine.

and if it's too much like the Ultimate Universe it has no chance of living up to the expectations of old fans.
  1. Old fans don't have expectations.
  2. This is all about new fans. The people who actually are going to buy this because they read a bunch of golden age shiet, are such a minority that they're not really mentionable. Of course, many people are going to get it because they like the prospect of Earth 2, but that's not the same.
Ultimate Universe didn't have this problem.

There's no problem.

Also, you make a bunch of assumption, like its Clark Kent (could be Lois's Son) or that he's younger than Superman, just because you think it looks like it.

Well in the solicit said he had lost the love of his life Lois Lane so I think it is Clark

@The Mighty Monarch: Earth-1 Superman is not really brooding

Still doesn't mean that he's younger. At all.

#13 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11621 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally, I think that this is going to be one of the highest bought books of the New52. The point of alternate universe is to have the characters of the mainstream universe do and experience things they wouldn't do in the main universe. It should not be a surprise to see the trinity leaning towards killing. The descriptions show that their universe is quite shitty and near apocalyptic. Clark lost Lois, Diana is the Last Daughter of Themyscira now, and Bruce...well his reasoning are unknown (That's assuming these are the same Trinity we know.) If the characters were the same on Earth-2 than on Earth-Prime there would be no reason to have Earth-2, even if its to have the Golden Age JSA characters.

#14 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33440 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: Aright dude, I never said it did
#15 Edited by Adnan (1037 posts) - - Show Bio

Robinson is *the* Golden Age guy at DC, I really do think he's got some sorta ace up his sleeve with this. 
 
The variant cover shows fairly young versions of Supes, Batman, and WW fighting against Parademons, plus we've gotten blog entries on Karen Zor-L and Helena Wayne, despite them currently not even being in Earth-2. I suspect that Earth-2 will take place sometime in the past, similar to JL, featuring Darkseid doing the same sorta thing but in Earth-2 - Multiversal travel isn't beyond his capabilities, right? It'd explain to dark, near-apocalyptic vibe we're getting from all this. The story will have to be different, Robinson ain't stupid and I'm sure he'll do something to surprise us. 

#16 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp: Aright dude, I never said it did

I know, I know. I was just clarifying for Mighty ^_^

#17 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33440 posts) - - Show Bio
@Adnan said:
Robinson is *the* Golden Age guy at DC, I really do think he's got some sorta ace up his sleeve with this. 
 
The variant cover shows fairly young versions of Supes, Batman, and WW fighting against Parademons, plus we've gotten blog entries on Karen Zor-L and Helena Wayne, despite them currently not even being in Earth-2. I suspect that Earth-2 will take place sometime in the past, similar to JL, featuring Darkseid doing the same sorta thing but in Earth-2 - Multiversal travel isn't beyond his capabilities, right? It'd explain to dark, near-apocalyptic vibe we're getting from all this. The story will have to be different, Robinson ain't stupid and I'm sure he'll do something to surprise us. 
Also Superman said Darkseid's invasion was multiverse level 
#18 Posted by royale_with_cheese (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

I disagree. If it does fail, it won't be because of this.

Ultimate worked well, and its pretty much Earth-2.

I'd say if it does fail, and this is entirely of my opinion (so don't bother trying to make a rebuttal lol), it would be because the the original concept of parallel earths and such, within the D.C universe, had already been given a shot and long time readers spurned at the idea. This is almost like opening up old wounds that haven't healed yet (Final Crisis *vomits*).

#19 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@royale_with_cheese said:

@ReVamp said:

I disagree. If it does fail, it won't be because of this.

Ultimate worked well, and its pretty much Earth-2.

I'd say if it does fail, and this is entirely of my opinion (so don't bother trying to make a rebuttal lol), it would be because the the original concept of parallel earths and such, within the D.C universe, had already been given a shot and long time readers spurned at the idea. This is almost like opening up old wounds that haven't healed yet (Final Crisis *vomits*).

True, but you can't make such conclusions based on the Character designs you've seen -- which was the main point I was trying to get across.

#20 Posted by royale_with_cheese (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@royale_with_cheese said:

@ReVamp said:

I disagree. If it does fail, it won't be because of this.

Ultimate worked well, and its pretty much Earth-2.

I'd say if it does fail, and this is entirely of my opinion (so don't bother trying to make a rebuttal lol), it would be because the the original concept of parallel earths and such, within the D.C universe, had already been given a shot and long time readers spurned at the idea. This is almost like opening up old wounds that haven't healed yet (Final Crisis *vomits*).

True, but you can't make such conclusions based on the Character designs you've seen -- which was the main point I was trying to get across.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the new character designs (except maybe Batman having eskrima sticks instead of having a gigantic sword in the shape of a batarang or something) at all. New universe, new character designs, thus is logic. I was referring to D.C's decision to reboot Earth-2 in general.

#21 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@royale_with_cheese said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the new character designs (except maybe Batman having eskrima sticks instead of having a gigantic sword in the shape of a batarang or something) at all. New universe, new character designs, thus is logic. I was referring to D.C's decision to reboot Earth-2 in general.

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm just saying its too soon to make any calls.

#22 Posted by royale_with_cheese (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@royale_with_cheese said:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the new character designs (except maybe Batman having eskrima sticks instead of having a gigantic sword in the shape of a batarang or something) at all. New universe, new character designs, thus is logic. I was referring to D.C's decision to reboot Earth-2 in general.

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm just saying its too soon to make any calls.

Yeah, I guess so. Hopefully Earth-2 will get a "you think this letter on my head stands for france" moment.

#23 Edited by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

@royale_with_cheese:

Let's see if Earth-2 can be more awesome than that !
#24 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

I totally agree with what you are conveying here. All this stuff would be fine if this wasn't Earth-2. If it was another reality it wouldn't matter...but because Earth-2 has a certain connotation attached to it, these New 52 changes to it make the feel less appealing. Still, I'm going to give it a chance nevertheless. And if not? Then we need this guy to cause a shake up once more...

#25 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@RedheadedAtrocitus: I feel like you're the only person who actually read everything I said.

Everyone else, A: I made it very clear that it was my own take on this, and that my assumptions were indeed assumptions. I used very few absolutes, so don't tell me I con't make these assumptions because nearly all of it WAS speculative conjecture.

Secondly, I'm sorry, I know art is up to interpretation and whatever, but that just isn't an older Superman. He just can't be anything beyond around the same age as current Clark. Old Superman has gray hair.

Kingdom Come

Batman Beyond

Original Earth 2 Superman

Superman: At Earth's End

That Superman is not any older than current Superman. If you want any ground to stand on to prove me wrong, find me an example of an old superman who looks like the one here. I have 4 examples of old Superman very clearly not looking like that.

#26 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: In addition, the very point of my argument hinged on the idea of appearances. Old fans want old Earth 2 because they want the JSA. Not ALL old fans obviously, but a lot.

I'm not saying if this is a lot like Marvel Ultimate that it will be an inherently bad thing, I'm saying that it's a bad thing in terms of appearances, because of all the old fans clamoring for 'Golden Age' style Earth 2.

I also 'know' that there will be shades of the Golden Age stuff, because that's exactly what the JSA are. No matter how much they're rebooted, that's just stuck into the fabric of the characters. And their presence has been confirmed.

I know its too soon to make any calls about the QUALITY, but comic fans are notorious for making early judgements. My exact point is exactly that people HAVE been making assumptions, and that's why I don't think the comic will SELL well, regardless of quality.

And 'Old fans don't have expectations?' That's..... an utterly laughable statement. Have you SEEN the comment boards for the release of all the character designs? They're chocked filled with "WHERE'S MY JSA?" "THIS ISN'T EARTH 2." Simply because it has been labeled Earth 2 and confirmed the JSA, that has created expectations from old fans of the old Earth. Marvel Ultimate didn't have history like that for precedent to create expectations like that.

#27 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

.@The Mighty Monarch said:

In addition, the very point of my argument hinged on the idea of appearances. Old fans want old Earth 2 because they want the JSA. Not ALL old fans obviously, but a lot.

Then they're not old Earth-2 fans, they're old JSA fans which isn't what I was talking about =P

I'm not saying if this is a lot like Marvel Ultimate that it will be an inherently bad thing, I'm saying that it's a bad thing in terms of appearances, because of all the old fans clamoring for 'Golden Age' style Earth 2.

Not really, the old earth-2 fans aren't clamoring for anything else and the JSA fans aren't anticipating "Golden Age" JSA because that's not what they like, if anything they want the JSA that they were accustomed to, which this obviously isn't.

I also 'know' that there will be shades of the Golden Age stuff, because that's exactly what the JSA are. No matter how much they're rebooted, that's just stuck into the fabric of the characters. And their presence has been confirmed.

No idea what you're talking about here =P

I know its too soon to make any calls about the QUALITY, but comic fans are notorious for making early judgements. My exact point is exactly that people HAVE been making assumptions, and that's why I don't think the comic will SELL well, regardless of quality.

And you're allowed to have your opinion.

And 'Old fans don't have expectations?' That's..... an utterly laughable statement. Have you SEEN the comment boards for the release of all the character designs? They're chocked filled with "WHERE'S MY JSA?" "THIS ISN'T EARTH 2." Simply because it has been labeled Earth 2 and confirmed the JSA, that has created expectations from old fans of the old Earth. Marvel Ultimate didn't have history like that for precedent to create expectations like that.

I'm not talking about JSA fans, I'm talking about Earth-2 fans which isn't the same thing. Earth-2 fans are mostly looking towards the trinity, not towards the JSA.

#28 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

It would probably seem like a mistake to jump into this apparently more heated by the moment exchange... but I'm going to anyways, yay!

It's trying too hard. It's trying too hard to be two different things. The final nail in the coffin, the moment of realization came when I saw Earth 2 Superman's design. It looks cool and all, a little too stylized to work for the Earth 0 Superman, but pretty cool. But it's the worst of the Earth 2 designs, especially considering the description.

Okay. First of all, the title is set to encompass an entire parallel dimension. Being more than one dimensional is not something I perceive to be a coffin nail, but rather an asset. To quote the Krayt Dragon, "Oh pish posh. What kind of cruel god would decreed a whole planet defined by just one topographical feature? It would be just as ridiculous as a whole world made of nothing but ice, lava, or forest!" In this case, instead of topography apply singular ideology. A parallel universe does not have to be defined by one element, and in fact may be the reason why they were the 'secondary' universes to the core one.

I've said a lot of things about the prior Earth 2 designs, good and bad. A Batman who kills kind of guts the entire 'mood' Earth 2 used to convey, and many fans assumed would convey. It was an awesome design, but not an 'Earth 2' design. Supergirl's gave me no strong feelings one way or the other about 'Earth 2', but looked kind of nice. (As a design. The art style was bad.) Robin's gave me exactly what I was expecting to feel from 'Earth 2.'

There is a story to be told, apparently one which requires the conflicting ideologies of a more violent tendency within the Justice League that could run in conflict with the more classic portrayal of golden age heroism. Your very argument against the potential of this series could in fact be the driving impetus behind the story. The fact is that we don't know anything about the portrayals of Jay or Alan, because not only has the story not been released, but even in the evidence crumbs regarding these characters have been withheld... and that has been done clearly with some intention in mind... the fact that they didn't release the standard cover but the variant suggests to me that they're saving the big kick-force for the series for the period nearer to release. We will see what those characters (presumably the main characters) look like when it is closer to time, to energize for the launch of the series.

That said, all of this can be thrown out the window because 'NEW 52!' However, this line of thinking can only go so far. It's been confirmed to include classic JSA characters like Jay Garrick, and Alan Scott. THIS is why Earth 2 WILL go for a certain degree of what it used to be. Jay Garrick and Alan Scott are characters who rely on nostalgia far more than others. When I was a new reader, it took me a while to grow accustomed to them, and actually develop any interest in them whatsoever. Because I KNEW they were relics. They were the outdated prototypes for Wally West, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner; etc. They're appeal relies on nostalgic value more than their current counterparts. This isn't to say they should be eliminated or that they're not interesting, but its much harder for new readers to latch onto them because they have the newer, more hip and modern versions more readily accessible and out there. Earth 2 is a universe for old fans. There's no two ways around it. Thus, they definitely have to keep a certain degree of nostalgic 'Golden Age' style to it, because Earth 2 is a series for the people who already want it. It isn't meant to reach for new fans as strongly as the rest because of what it is.

Again, could this not be a really interesting hook for the series? The idea of youthdom against relichood? A series that could appeal to both old and new fans would certainly be much more appealing... in fact, the highly successful relaunch of the JSA post-Infinite Crisis was driven by this same core idea... that what is old may be valued, while providing a thriving legacy of creation and induction... I read that series as much for Stargirl, Cyclone, Starman (Thom) and Wildcat (Tommy) as I did for the classic stalwarts of the JSA. They aren't unappealing characters... but they do so well by working with, rather than against, the legacy that followed their debuts.

The problem is that it wont SELL as well as it should because it's trying too hard to balance nostalgia with new ideas. New readers want new ideas but not the retro characters. Old readers want the retro characters, but not the darker and edgier stuff because it goes against the very core of the retro characters.

The first arc of JSA that pulled on this core idea sold at 85k issues, not including reprints and added sales. The first issue sold 100k.

Lois being dead could have worked, but Superman would need to look OLD. Gray hair and such; essentially THE SUPERMAN OF EARTH 2 FROM INFINITE CRISIS. Why? BECAUSE LOIS DIED OF OLD AGE. Superman outlived her, but in a world that old fans assume and want Earth 2 to be, this would make Superman more of a wise old 'Morgan Freeman' man, but if she was murdered, he's going to be more brooding and short tempered. He'll have lost his anchor to his humanity. And more importantly, we already have a more brooding Superman over in Earth 1. But this Superman looks FAR too young to have outlived Lois Lane, so the best thing we can hope for is her dying of natural causes.

The hope here (for me at least) is that while Superman has his role in this universe, he is not the star character. It is the dramatic foils of the JSA that will be the driving force (potentially). Also, we've already done the Superman of Earth-2 thing. One of the biggest complaints about the industry is telling the same exact story over again (see Phoenix) and the fact that this is moving in a different direction is a potential strength, rather than a weakness.

I've defended the intelligence of New Readers in the wake of a lot of old fans saying the Multiverse would be hard to understand.

I do agree here completely.

But I do think they'll be confused by Earth 2. The premise seems like its leaning more towards the Ultimate Marvel Universe. New Fans will see a very similar and familiar Trinity, but then a radically different Green Lantern and Flash. These two ideas just don't mix well, and there won't be a strong following.

Isn't that exactly why the Ultimate Universe used to thrive?

I'm not saying if this is a lot like Marvel Ultimate that it will be an inherently bad thing, I'm saying that it's a bad thing in terms of appearances, because of all the old fans clamoring for 'Golden Age' style Earth 2.

I don't think it is far off the mark to suggest that these same old fans are also quick to negative judgment and love to bash a majority of new product without discrimination... that isn't to say that their opinions aren't many times on the mark... but I would say that the trend of older fans leans much closer to "This sucks" than "Oh yes!" I can't remember too many old fans being excited about... anything, at least in the past 10 years.

I know its too soon to make any calls about the QUALITY, but comic fans are notorious for making early judgements. My exact point is exactly that people HAVE been making assumptions, and that's why I don't think the comic will SELL well, regardless of quality.

They are also notorious for ignoring their own judgments and buying things that they claim they are going to hate, and then complaining about their inability to refrain from participating.

And 'Old fans don't have expectations?' That's..... an utterly laughable statement. Have you SEEN the comment boards for the release of all the character designs? They're chocked filled with "WHERE'S MY JSA?" "THIS ISN'T EARTH 2." Simply because it has been labeled Earth 2 and confirmed the JSA, that has created expectations from old fans of the old Earth. Marvel Ultimate didn't have history like that for precedent to create expectations like that.

While I don't hold to the idea that old fans don't have expectations... I would suggest that they don't have reasonable expectations, in the sense that the community of voiced expectations are often dramatically conflicting and are often even created to be in opposition to the norm. They have a right to their expectations... but (again, I hope it isn't a leap to suggest that) they often jump to judge negatively on the slightest conflict with their perfect view of the creations.

#29 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

While I don't hold to the idea that old fans don't have expectations... I would suggest that they don't have reasonable expectations, in the sense that the community of voiced expectations are often dramatically conflicting and are often even created to be in opposition to the norm. They have a right to their expectations... but (again, I hope it isn't a leap to suggest that) they often jump to judge negatively on the slightest conflict with their perfect view of the creations.

This is essentially the crux of my opinion here. That they don't have reasonable expectations. I'm not suggesting nobody will buy it and it will be an utterly miserable failure, but I don't think it's going to do very well. I've seen so many people making early judgement calls based on the Trinity designs, and not all of them right away, some waited for more designs to be released.

I personally love some of the parallel Earths being set around one core idea, if the parallel earths are too scattered within themselves, that's when things get confusing. It's easy to say 'This is the JSA: Liberty Files Universe,' but if it's also the Red Son Universe and the Gotham By Gaslight Universe, that's when things get confusing and muddled, though that's probably an extreme way of viewing it.

However...

@TheOptimist said:

There is a story to be told, apparently one which requires the conflicting ideologies of a more violent tendency within the Justice League that could run in conflict with the more classic portrayal of golden age heroism.

THIS.

You won with this.

Thanks for sticking your nose in the middle of this, because you completely validated everything for me. PLEASE, go say this to everyone who's denouncing Earth 2 right now.

#30 Posted by Saren (25677 posts) - - Show Bio

I've got this wild notion in my head; perhaps I'll wait for the stories to actually come out before deciding what kind of a future the title has.

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