Theory: Why DC Wants GL to be Funny and Cyborg to be Popular

#1 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

Theory: It's mostly because of Warner.

During the mid-2000s, People outside of comics knew that the top five Justice League members are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Flash. The only problem was that they knew them as Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Diana of Themyscira, Wally West (aka Funny Flash ), and John Stewart. There was no need to alter their personalities because the Justice League cartoon had set up a fun dynamic for these five.

Around that time--before Warner was starting to think about taking advantage of their superhero properties--DC decided to push Hal Jordan (I'm guessing because Didio and Johns missed the character). Around this time (pre-new 52), Johns wrote Hal without a personality which allowed people to imprint themselves on the character. This and the fact that Johns established a sweeping epic made Hal Jordan DC's 3rd highest selling character--even though any human GL could have been used in his place--but I'll save that for another discussion.

Anyhoo, let's flash forward to the later 2000s. The Justice League show is over after having reached hundreds of millions of viewers, and Warner starts taking comic book properties more seriously. They decide to start mining their popular properties other than Batman and Superman. Based on sales figures and a push from Johns/Didio, Warner decides to build on the GL property. They release Hal Jordan movies on dvd that do moderately well, so they greenlight a live action film and an animated tv series. Only problem is that Warner realizes that Avengers is going to make gangbusters. So after the GL flop, they tell Didio and friends to start developing the JL property.

This leads to major changes in the comics. GL on the JL can't be John Stewart anymore because Hal is their 3rd highest selling character. But now DC needs a popular Black character so that when movie audiences see the movie, they won't think DC is racist for making GL White and having an all White JL. Key Cyborg's entrance to replace the least profitable JL member.

To make the kind of money Avengers made, DC has to make the comics easier for studios to adapt. Johns works on flushing out the Aquaman property more. The Wally Flash is replaced by the Barry Flash because his origin is simpler to adapt for a movie. But Barry is not at all known for being a Spider-man-type Joker the way that the cartoon Flash is. And this changes the popular team dynamic--plus you need a joker on every superhero team to lighten the tone and to remind audiences not to think of the story as happening in the real world.

Barry doesn't have a history of being a Joker--but Hal does. He was a funnyman in the Bronze age of Comics. So Hal's jokey trait is played up more in the movie and in the book. This wouldn't be a problem if he weren't written as a giant douche.

What does that mean for us fans? We get Hal Jordan and Cyborg pushes like this:

And it will keep happening now that Warner is eyeing a JLA film for the next decade.

How could it have turned out differently? If Wally outsold Hal or if DC pushed John Stewart instead of Hal in the mid-2000s or if people didn't care about diversity.

Just my theory.

-OR

#2 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

Around that time--before Warner was starting to think about taking advantage of their superhero properties--DC decided to push Hal Jordan (I'm guessing because Didio and Johns missed the character). Around this time (pre-new 52), Johns wrote Hal without a personality which allowed people to imprint themselves on the character. This and the fact that Johns established a sweeping epic made Hal Jordan DC's 3rd highest selling character--even though any human GL could have been used in his place--but I'll save that for another discussion.

Eh... Johns grew up with Kyle.

Secondly, it all started with rebirth. before rebirth, GL was dying, there wasn't any activity on the franchise then BOOM, Hal returned.

08/2004: Green Lantern #179 -- 35,564 [37,458]
08/2004: Green Lantern #180 -- 36,426
09/2004: Green Lantern #181 -- 41,528 [46189]
--------------------------------------------
10/2004: Rebirth #1 of 6 -- 95,092 [178,414]
11/2004: Rebirth #2 of 6 -- 86,270 [139,951]
12/2004: Rebirth #3 of 6 -- 106,527 [126,636]
02/2005: Rebirth #4 of 6 -- 108,126 [121,619]
04/2005: Rebirth #5 of 6 -- 114,986 [123,265]
05/2005: Rebirth #6 of 6 -- 114,335
05/2005: Green Lantern #1 -- 168,324 (+ 47.2%) [178,686]
06/2005: Green Lantern #2 -- 117,794 (- 30.0%) [120,615]
08/2005: Green Lantern #3 -- 108,502 (- 7.9%)
08/2005: Green Lantern #4 -- 96,924 (- 10.7%) [99,517]
11/2005: Green Lantern #5 -- 92,348 (- 4.7%)

Hal's return show how strong his character is, that even after so many years people still miss him. There have been an organisation called HEAT that have been rooting for Hal Jordan to turn around for all these years and it paid off. Hal Jordan is still the most prominent GL ever, even when they tried to put Kyle in Superman TAS, they had to use Hal's origin, because he is the one that first received the ring. So not every human GL could have been used in that place. Kyle Rayner had his own mini, Ion: Guardian of the Universe that ran after Hal came back and it sales were lukewarm. Even Guy had his own solos that sold just average.

08/2010: Emerald Warriors #1 -- 68,332
09/2010: Emerald Warriors #2 -- 56,289 (-17.6%)
10/2010: Emerald Warriors #3 -- 50,490 (-10.3%)
11/2010: Emerald Warriors #4 -- 46,319 (- 8.3%)
12/2010: Emerald Warriors #5 -- 44,077 (- 4.8%)
01/2011: Emerald Warriors #6 -- 43,471 (- 1.4%)
02/2011: Emerald Warriors #7 -- 44,828 (+ 3.1%)
03/2011: Emerald Warriors #8 -- 51,322 (+14.5%) [54,110]
04/2011: Emerald Warriors #9 -- 51,784 (+ 0.5%)
05/2011: Emerald Warriors #10 -- 52,971 (+ 2.3%)
06/2011: Emerald Warriors #11 -- 53,927 (+ 1.8%)
07/2011: Emerald Warriors #12 -- 48,087 (-10.8%)
08/2011: Emerald Warriors #13 -- 44,228 (- 8.0%)

GLC now whose focus is on John and Guy, both failed to sell as much as Hal.

Even New Guardians who is fun and exciting and its like capturing all the fun from Blackest Night, only manage to see a little more than half of what Hal is selling.

I love all 4 lanterns, but face it and stop deceiving yourself. Hal is the only person that managed to salvage the Green Lantern franchise.

#3 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

Around that time--before Warner was starting to think about taking advantage of their superhero properties--DC decided to push Hal Jordan (I'm guessing because Didio and Johns missed the character). Around this time (pre-new 52), Johns wrote Hal without a personality which allowed people to imprint themselves on the character. This and the fact that Johns established a sweeping epic made Hal Jordan DC's 3rd highest selling character--even though any human GL could have been used in his place--but I'll save that for another discussion.

Eh... Johns grew up with Kyle.

Secondly, it all started with rebirth. before rebirth, GL was dying, there wasn't any activity on the franchise then BOOM, Hal returned.

08/2004: Green Lantern #179 -- 35,564 [37,458]
08/2004: Green Lantern #180 -- 36,426
09/2004: Green Lantern #181 -- 41,528 [46189]
--------------------------------------------
10/2004: Rebirth #1 of 6 -- 95,092 [178,414]
11/2004: Rebirth #2 of 6 -- 86,270 [139,951]
12/2004: Rebirth #3 of 6 -- 106,527 [126,636]
02/2005: Rebirth #4 of 6 -- 108,126 [121,619]
04/2005: Rebirth #5 of 6 -- 114,986 [123,265]
05/2005: Rebirth #6 of 6 -- 114,335
05/2005: Green Lantern #1 -- 168,324 (+ 47.2%) [178,686]
06/2005: Green Lantern #2 -- 117,794 (- 30.0%) [120,615]
08/2005: Green Lantern #3 -- 108,502 (- 7.9%)
08/2005: Green Lantern #4 -- 96,924 (- 10.7%) [99,517]
11/2005: Green Lantern #5 -- 92,348 (- 4.7%)

Hal's return show how strong his character is, that even after so many years people still miss him. There have been an organisation called HEAT that have been rooting for Hal Jordan to turn around for all these years and it paid off. Hal Jordan is still the most prominent GL ever, even when they tried to put Kyle in Superman TAS, they had to use Hal's origin, because he is the one that first received the ring. So not every human GL could have been used in that place. Kyle Rayner had his own mini, Ion: Guardian of the Universe that ran after Hal came back and it sales were lukewarm. Even Guy had his own solos that sold just average.

08/2010: Emerald Warriors #1 -- 68,332
09/2010: Emerald Warriors #2 -- 56,289 (-17.6%)
10/2010: Emerald Warriors #3 -- 50,490 (-10.3%)
11/2010: Emerald Warriors #4 -- 46,319 (- 8.3%)
12/2010: Emerald Warriors #5 -- 44,077 (- 4.8%)
01/2011: Emerald Warriors #6 -- 43,471 (- 1.4%)
02/2011: Emerald Warriors #7 -- 44,828 (+ 3.1%)
03/2011: Emerald Warriors #8 -- 51,322 (+14.5%) [54,110]
04/2011: Emerald Warriors #9 -- 51,784 (+ 0.5%)
05/2011: Emerald Warriors #10 -- 52,971 (+ 2.3%)
06/2011: Emerald Warriors #11 -- 53,927 (+ 1.8%)
07/2011: Emerald Warriors #12 -- 48,087 (-10.8%)
08/2011: Emerald Warriors #13 -- 44,228 (- 8.0%)

GLC now whose focus is on John and Guy, both failed to sell as much as Hal.

Even New Guardians who is fun and exciting and its like capturing all the fun from Blackest Night, only manage to see a little more than half of what Hal is selling.

I love all 4 lanterns, but face it and stop deceiving yourself. Hal is the only person that managed to salvage the Green Lantern franchise.

What brought people to the GL book was Geoff Johns. What kept them on was his writing. And finally, if you read any of Johns' pre-New 52 GL, you'll see that any other GL fits just as well story-wise. Just my 2 cents, but i don't mind if you disagree.

Most People grew attached to Jordan AFTER he flushed out a new GL mythos. If Johns wrote the exact same stories with a different GL 10 years ago--like say Kyle Rayner--then I believe the franchise would still be where it is but with a different lead.

The fact that other GL books don't sell as well probably has to do with the fact that the other GLs haven't been getting the same love or talent that Hal has from DC or Warner.

#4 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

@sethysquare said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

Around that time--before Warner was starting to think about taking advantage of their superhero properties--DC decided to push Hal Jordan (I'm guessing because Didio and Johns missed the character). Around this time (pre-new 52), Johns wrote Hal without a personality which allowed people to imprint themselves on the character. This and the fact that Johns established a sweeping epic made Hal Jordan DC's 3rd highest selling character--even though any human GL could have been used in his place--but I'll save that for another discussion.

Eh... Johns grew up with Kyle.

Secondly, it all started with rebirth. before rebirth, GL was dying, there wasn't any activity on the franchise then BOOM, Hal returned.

08/2004: Green Lantern #179 -- 35,564 [37,458]
08/2004: Green Lantern #180 -- 36,426
09/2004: Green Lantern #181 -- 41,528 [46189]
--------------------------------------------
10/2004: Rebirth #1 of 6 -- 95,092 [178,414]
11/2004: Rebirth #2 of 6 -- 86,270 [139,951]
12/2004: Rebirth #3 of 6 -- 106,527 [126,636]
02/2005: Rebirth #4 of 6 -- 108,126 [121,619]
04/2005: Rebirth #5 of 6 -- 114,986 [123,265]
05/2005: Rebirth #6 of 6 -- 114,335
05/2005: Green Lantern #1 -- 168,324 (+ 47.2%) [178,686]
06/2005: Green Lantern #2 -- 117,794 (- 30.0%) [120,615]
08/2005: Green Lantern #3 -- 108,502 (- 7.9%)
08/2005: Green Lantern #4 -- 96,924 (- 10.7%) [99,517]
11/2005: Green Lantern #5 -- 92,348 (- 4.7%)

Hal's return show how strong his character is, that even after so many years people still miss him. There have been an organisation called HEAT that have been rooting for Hal Jordan to turn around for all these years and it paid off. Hal Jordan is still the most prominent GL ever, even when they tried to put Kyle in Superman TAS, they had to use Hal's origin, because he is the one that first received the ring. So not every human GL could have been used in that place. Kyle Rayner had his own mini, Ion: Guardian of the Universe that ran after Hal came back and it sales were lukewarm. Even Guy had his own solos that sold just average.

08/2010: Emerald Warriors #1 -- 68,332
09/2010: Emerald Warriors #2 -- 56,289 (-17.6%)
10/2010: Emerald Warriors #3 -- 50,490 (-10.3%)
11/2010: Emerald Warriors #4 -- 46,319 (- 8.3%)
12/2010: Emerald Warriors #5 -- 44,077 (- 4.8%)
01/2011: Emerald Warriors #6 -- 43,471 (- 1.4%)
02/2011: Emerald Warriors #7 -- 44,828 (+ 3.1%)
03/2011: Emerald Warriors #8 -- 51,322 (+14.5%) [54,110]
04/2011: Emerald Warriors #9 -- 51,784 (+ 0.5%)
05/2011: Emerald Warriors #10 -- 52,971 (+ 2.3%)
06/2011: Emerald Warriors #11 -- 53,927 (+ 1.8%)
07/2011: Emerald Warriors #12 -- 48,087 (-10.8%)
08/2011: Emerald Warriors #13 -- 44,228 (- 8.0%)

GLC now whose focus is on John and Guy, both failed to sell as much as Hal.

Even New Guardians who is fun and exciting and its like capturing all the fun from Blackest Night, only manage to see a little more than half of what Hal is selling.

I love all 4 lanterns, but face it and stop deceiving yourself. Hal is the only person that managed to salvage the Green Lantern franchise.

What brought people to the GL book was Geoff Johns. What kept them on was his writing. And finally, if you read any of Johns' pre-New 52 GL, you'll see that any other GL fits just as well story-wise. Just my 2 cents, but i don't mind if you disagree.

Most People grew attached to Jordan AFTER he flushed out a new GL mythos. If Johns wrote the exact same stories with a different GL 10 years ago--like say Kyle Rayner--then I believe the franchise would still be where it is but with a different lead.

The fact that other GL books don't sell as well probably has to do with the fact that the other GLs haven't been getting the same love or talent that Hal has from DC or Warner.

This.

#5 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio
Why do you assume that I have not read pre new 52 gl. I read everything from rebirth till now. The fact is When Kyle first launched, they did everything to make him great. Even included him on superman tas. The stories could not fit anyone else because hal is the only one affected by Parallax and that played a big part of every story line he was in.
Sure people grew attached to Jordan after Johns run. But please, If he dont have the popularity then his initial sales for rebirth and #1 would not be selling that much. Do you dare say anyone else could be used as the lead in Rebirth? Also Star Sapphires played a big role in lots of the cross overs. How are they going to make Star Sapphire work and have such a great chemistry without Carol. They cant possibly make Carol start dating Kyle all of a sudden. Also Hal have such a huge history with Sinestro that have failed to play out with any of the other lanterns as well as he did with Hal. After all Hal was the one that took his ring.
Lastly all the other lantern books didnt sell as much as GL, but it was never near the figures that happened before Rebirth. The fact is Geoff and Hal revived the whole line, so now theres 4 GL books. none of the 3 books sold as much but their performance are much much better than pre rebirth. Even Guy's book sold great for a 2nd spin off.
Lastly, Im just gonna say that Hal is the most prominent figure and stories about him being controlled by Parallax cant be told using any other lantern. Neither is his relationship to Abin Sur, Carol Ferris and Sinestro. Its the same deal with Kara. For years DC failed to make another Supergirl series work until Kara came back and her #1 sold roughly 150k and that title have been a pretty solid seller even until now. You are entitled to your opinions but if you actually read Hal's GL run you'll know that he is the only one that could tell the story he did.

@OutlawRenegade:

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