This came out weeks ago and his quote has really been bugging me because I don't think what he said was right. John said , "Call me," jokes Whedon. "It's enormously difficult to take very disparate characters and make them work. DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than we were. Marvel really cracked the code in terms of ‘Oh, they're just like us.’".He was giving advice on how to make a good Justice League movie. He said that DC characters were bigger than they were? I guess he hasn't read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Secret Wars.Marvel Characters are sometimes bigger than themselves and this wasn't really fair judgement.I think when he said "DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than", he was talking about the silver age but that was decades ago though and the DC characters are more modern. Just my thoughts here.

Yeah, I still don't see this happening within the next decade. DC doesn't have a Whedon and is basing everything around Marvel's business plan. Just because it works for one company, doesn't mean it's going to work for the other.

I can't say I disagree. Whoever ends up doing this movie, he or she will have a much tougher time than what Joss had to go through with the Avengers. It's not going to be simple and easy at all or else we would've already gotten a JL movie. So many aspects are going to have to be nailed perfectly. It's also going to have involve people who actually give a shit about the source material like Fiege and Whedon.

Who from Marvel would you consider an "average joe"? amongst their major heroes? Even Peter Parker doesn't fit that description anymore with the "genius scientist" at Horizon Labs.

@Nighthunter said:

@BlueLantern1995 said:

@moywar700 said:

This came out weeks ago and his quote has really been bugging me because I don't think what he said was right. John said , "Call me," jokes Whedon. "It's enormously difficult to take very disparate characters and make them work. DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than we were. Marvel really cracked the code in terms of ‘Oh, they're just like us.’".He was giving advice on how to make a good Justice League movie. He said that DC characters were bigger than they were? I guess he hasn't read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Secret Wars.Marvel Characters are sometimes bigger than themselves and this wasn't really fair judgement.I think when he said "DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than", he was talking about the silver age but that was decades ago though and the DC characters are more modern. Just my thoughts here.

What he was saying is that they were based off of something that was bigger than life and that it still has the effects today...and I can see what he is saying. Just look at their powers...they are way beyond most beings. I personally agree with this...You state Dark Phoenix Saga and Secret Wars as examples from Marvel but yet can you state a few more? DC has trillions of these in fact their are more of these than their are not(from recollection...could be wrong) Most of DC's greatest villains are other worldly...To name the 3 biggest: Darkseid, Brainiac, and Despero...but their are groups like the Reach, White Martians etc. In Fact most of the good stories could never happen because most of them are of invasions. DC is better in comics than Marvel but has never in the Live Action Movie realm...perhaps this is due to their strengths...Marvel has always been for the average joe. DC hasn't...name one big time superhero from DC that is a average joe...I dare ya.

Wally West, Kyle Rayner

Speed Force and Space Cop are nowhere near average. Anything moving faster than light is not average. I think the point is 4 of the 6 Avengers didn't have powers at all; it would be impossible to make a good Justice League movie with more than 1 character not having powers.

@cattlebattle said:

@RainEffect said:

@cattlebattle said:

STFU Whedon....your not that great..

You're*

Also, the Avengers dominance at the Box Office and overwhelmingly positive critical reception beg to differ.

1. We are not in grammar class ...so who gives a crap2 Avatar also has amazing box office numbers...doesn't mean its a master piece 3.Bias is obvious from your avatar

LOL.

@cattlebattle said:

STFU Whedon....your not that great..

Aah a man of my own heart.

@Nighthunter said:

Wally West, Kyle Rayner

Thank you.

And serious this annoying comment about DC heroes being too big, too perfect, blah, blah blah really gets on my nerves. You know what I like stories about demigods, triumphing against impossible odds, then returning to their crystal castles to bang their princesses. I like reading about a playboy millionaire, philanthropist, ninja scientist who saves the world in his free time in between banging girls in tight catsuits and punching psychopatic clowns. I like reading about a heroic super-powered alien who is morally better then 90% of the planet.

What's wrong with that? Seriously Whedon STFU

I read comics to escape the dredge of daily life and escape to fantastic worlds and locales with good stories. The heroes of these stories don't have to have everyman problems. Because I'm not buying these stories see the dredge of daily life. I want to see aliens, knights in shinning armor and horrific monsters.

The average joe is not better movie material then the fantastic demigod who strangles hydras with his barehands or the shinning paladin who storms the castle and rescues the princess.

I agree with the Notion that DC's heroes wouldn't work on the big screen.

I mean, I guess Green Lantern worked somewhat. But Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, hell even Superman when he's not in a solo movie. I'm just not sure it would work.

@Nighthunter said:

@tim2081 said:

@Nighthunter said:

@BlueLantern1995 said:

@moywar700 said:

This came out weeks ago and his quote has really been bugging me because I don't think what he said was right. John said , "Call me," jokes Whedon. "It's enormously difficult to take very disparate characters and make them work. DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than we were. Marvel really cracked the code in terms of ‘Oh, they're just like us.’".He was giving advice on how to make a good Justice League movie. He said that DC characters were bigger than they were? I guess he hasn't read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Secret Wars.Marvel Characters are sometimes bigger than themselves and this wasn't really fair judgement.I think when he said "DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than", he was talking about the silver age but that was decades ago though and the DC characters are more modern. Just my thoughts here.

What he was saying is that they were based off of something that was bigger than life and that it still has the effects today...and I can see what he is saying. Just look at their powers...they are way beyond most beings. I personally agree with this...You state Dark Phoenix Saga and Secret Wars as examples from Marvel but yet can you state a few more? DC has trillions of these in fact their are more of these than their are not(from recollection...could be wrong) Most of DC's greatest villains are other worldly...To name the 3 biggest: Darkseid, Brainiac, and Despero...but their are groups like the Reach, White Martians etc. In Fact most of the good stories could never happen because most of them are of invasions. DC is better in comics than Marvel but has never in the Live Action Movie realm...perhaps this is due to their strengths...Marvel has always been for the average joe. DC hasn't...name one big time superhero from DC that is a average joe...I dare ya.

Wally West, Kyle Rayner

Speed Force and Space Cop are nowhere near average. Anything moving faster than light is not average. I think the point is 4 of the 6 Avengers didn't have powers at all; it would be impossible to make a good Justice League movie with more than 1 character not having powers.

Yeah because a Genius billionaire engineer is way more "joe average" than an artist who was walking out of a bar when he received the ring.

Genius billionaire engineer = Bill Gates, Elon Musk

Guy who was given a space ring = ?

Average people can understand, and even aspire to be a genius billionaire engineer. You can't aspire to be given a magical ring. The unrealistic part about Iron Man is creating a high capacity, clean energy source to power his armor (which we desperately need in the real world). There are actually elements of the armor that already exist in real life, and the rest of it is just a matter of time.

@cattlebattle: neither is nolan, but look at him.

@WildStyle: oh yes because bringing together a rage monster, a russian spy, a man out of ww2, a billionaire in an armored suit and a norse god was so easy to pull off. oh and the guy with the bow too. now that someone finally did a superhero group movie its easy. you wanna know why we dont have jl movie yet? because dc sucks at movies. animated are good, bu live action blow.

@Manwhohaseverything: yes he is an average joe. he's got a job, hes got love problems, pays bills. thats an average joe. no matter how smart he is.

@Crom-Cruach said:

Thank you.

And serious this annoying comment about DC heroes being too big, too perfect, blah, blah blah really gets on my nerves. You know what I like stories about demigods, triumphing against impossible odds, then returning to their crystal castles to bang their princesses. I like reading about a playboy millionaire, philanthropist, ninja scientist who saves the world in his free time in between banging girls in tight catsuits and punching psychopatic clowns. I like reading about a heroic super-powered alien who is morally better then 90% of the planet.

What's wrong with that? Seriously Whedon STFU

I read comics to escape the dredge of daily life and escape to fantastic worlds and locales with good stories. The heroes of these stories don't have to have everyman problems. Because I'm not buying these stories see the dredge of daily life. I want to see aliens, knights in shinning armor and horrific monsters.

The average joe is not better movie material then the fantastic demigod who strangles hydras with his barehands or the shinning paladin who storms the castle and rescues the princess.

Whedon never said the characters weren't good. He was saying it is tough to sell them to a wide audience. The question is, how many people feel the same way you do? $200 million doesn't come out of nowhere.

@tim2081 said:

Whedon never said the characters weren't good. He was saying it is tough to sell them to a wide audience. The question is, how many people feel the same way you do? $200 million doesn't come out of nowhere.

My rebuttal to this way of thinking is this, who remembers bob the akkadian mud farmer. Nobody, because he's Bob the Akkadian mud farmer. He's a nobody with nobody problems. Who do we remember? We remember Hercules who slew the Hydra and dragged Cerberus screaming and kicking out of hades. We remember Micheal the Archangel who kicked the ultimate evil in the ass then stepped on his face. We remember Marduk who killed the queen of Chaos and Tana who seperated the sky and the earth by lifting it over his head

Fantastic figures that are larger then life doing incredible deeds have been marketed since the beginning of time with success.

@Crom-Cruach said:

@tim2081 said:

Whedon never said the characters weren't good. He was saying it is tough to sell them to a wide audience. The question is, how many people feel the same way you do? $200 million doesn't come out of nowhere.

My rebuttal to this way of thinking is this, who remembers bob the akkadian mud farmer. Nobody, because he's Bob the Akkadian mud farmer. He's a nobody with nobody problems. Who do we remember? We remember Hercules who slew the Hydra and dragged Cerberus screaming and kicking out of hades. We remember Micheal the Archangel who kicked the ultimate evil in the ass then stepped on his face. We remember Marduk who killed the queen of Chaos and Tana who seperated the sky and the earth by lifting it over his head

Fantastic figures that are larger then life doing incredible deeds have been marketed since the beginning of time with success.

True, but the appeal to those have always been about the underdog. It's just like Rocky when he fought Apollo. Rocky actually lost in the first movie, but it's still the most inspirational movie ever. The story that a person can start low and build themselves up will always be popular. Remember Hercules had to prove himself worthy to be a god. Luke had to learn how to use the force to beat Vader. Superman was born to be at the top, he's always been at the top; which makes it tougher to be the underdog working your way up. Like Whedon said it's tougher, not necessarily impossible. Which is why in most current versions of Superman the first thing they do is weaken him.

@Manwhohaseverything said:

@KainScion: Then Clark Kent is an average joe, because he has girl problems and pays bills. That's average, no matter how powerful you are. Parker's Horizon labs invented a time machine that looks like a break room. To me, that's just as far-fetched as being a super-powered alien. Parker got his powers from a radioactive spider-bite, again, just as far fetched as super-powered alien.

Superman chooses to live the life he does, that doesn't make him average. If he didn't want to pay bills he wouldn't, he is pretending to be average to fit in. That's an entirely different problem than not having any other choice. Being the leader of all the most powerful superheroes on the planet also doesn't make you average. Spider-Man isn't the most powerful, isn't the smartest, isn't the richest, but he's not at the bottom either, so he's average. He couldn't be the lord of all heroes, even if he tried. In fact a well trained and prepared task force of humans (SHIELD) could probably beat him.

@moywar700 said:

This came out weeks ago and his quote has really been bugging me because I don't think what he said was right. John said , "Call me," jokes Whedon. "It's enormously difficult to take very disparate characters and make them work. DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than we were. Marvel really cracked the code in terms of ‘Oh, they're just like us.’".He was giving advice on how to make a good Justice League movie. He said that DC characters were bigger than they were? I guess he hasn't read the Dark Phoenix Saga or Secret Wars.Marvel Characters are sometimes bigger than themselves and this wasn't really fair judgement.I think when he said "DC has a harder time of it than Marvel because their characters are from an old, bygone era where characters were bigger than", he was talking about the silver age but that was decades ago though and the DC characters are more modern. Just my thoughts here.

What bothers you exactly about it? Whedon is right, Marvel's characters a more raw and real feel to them. They have relatable problems, and their characters feel more down to Earth and real, while DC's characters are what Whedon said, they are....bigger than us, its seems to me it would be harder to adapt. I would love for certain DC characters to come to the big screen, but its going to take work. We all remember the disaster that was Green Lantern.

@tim2081 said:

@Crom-Cruach said:

True, but the appeal to those have always been about the underdog. It's just like Rocky when he fought Apollo. Rocky actually lost in the first movie, but it's still the most inspirational movie ever.

Disagree, but here and that is a matter of opinion. Personally I don't find Rocky that inspiring.

@tim2081 said:

Remember Hercules had to prove himself worthy to be a god.

He was however never an average joe or mundane. In his crib he strangled two serpents with his bare hands. He never was an underdog. He was a king, battle chief, a reaver and slayer (sounds like the intro to conan but then they have more in common then most realize).

A lot of people like underdog stories. But saying they are more marketable isn't really accurate. Longevity and fame go to the exceptional and fantastic. At the end of the day Thor lasted thousands of years as a character who's stories we will tell over and over. Joe the Akkadian farmer who beat some guy in a fist fight after training himself. not so much

@tim2081: thanks for the back-up

I think what he means was that most of the DC characters in the JLA have always been more Iconic than Marvel characters on average. DC heroes have long been seen as sort of the Standard bearers of the Super Hero genre which makes it more difficult to do a JLA movie justice(no pun intended)

@Uno_Oscuro: and GL is, besides batman, the easiest to do (imho). test pilot gets a ring that can make happen anything the user wishes. not that hard. no other important thing so its straight to the bad guy. and screwed the pooch royally with it. my money on the next hero after mos should be flash. again simple origin->got powers-> fight baddies->end.

@The Stegman: name a few that deserve a movie

And we the right to argue against whatever he may say that is asinine...

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

Well he did make a badass film with over 6 super heroes in it and he DID make over 1.3 billion. And he DID break some records. I think he has earned the right to give advice and criticize a bit.

This.

@Crom-Cruach said:

And we the right to argue against whatever he may say that is asinine...

Whilst we do that doesn't mean we have to attack a director so viciously. If Nolan said the same about Marvel I guarantee that he wouldn't get the same response. The simple fact is that people can relate to the Marvel heroes better than they can to the DC heroes, who are easier to admire.

Look at the cast of the Avengers. The only character that I would call unrelatable would be Thor and they managed to make that work. Whilst not all characters from DC are unrelatable it is easier to sympathise with someone who built their suit out of scraps with survival in mind; than someone who used Millions of Dollars inherited after their parents died.

@Pwok21 said:

Whilst we do that doesn't mean we have to attack a director so viciously. If Nolan said the same about Marvel I guarantee that he wouldn't get the same response. The simple fact is that people can relate to the Marvel heroes better than they can to the DC heroes, who are easier to admire.

Superman who never gives up and always is ready to sacrifice himself to save everyone is easier to admire then Black Widow will ever be.

@Pwok21 said:

Look at the cast of the Avengers. The only character that I would call unrelatable would be Thor and they managed to make that work. Whilst not all characters from DC are unrelatable it is easier to sympathise with someone who built their suit out of scraps with survival in mind; than someone who used Millions of Dollars inherited after their parents died.

Right because it's so much easier to relate to Iron man, sure.

@Crom-Cruach said:

@tim2081 said:

@Crom-Cruach said:

True, but the appeal to those have always been about the underdog. It's just like Rocky when he fought Apollo. Rocky actually lost in the first movie, but it's still the most inspirational movie ever.

Disagree, but here and that is a matter of opinion. Personally I don't find Rocky that inspiring.

@tim2081 said:

Remember Hercules had to prove himself worthy to be a god.

He was however never an average joe or mundane. In his crib he strangled two serpents with his bare hands. He never was an underdog. He was a king, battle chief, a reaver and slayer (sounds like the intro to conan but then they have more in common then most realize).

A lot of people like underdog stories. But saying they are more marketable isn't really accurate. Longevity and fame go to the exceptional and fantastic. At the end of the day Thor lasted thousands of years as a character who's stories we will tell over and over. Joe the Akkadian farmer who beat some guy in a fist fight after training himself. not so much

In June 2011, Rocky was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame along with Mike Tyson, so that says something about being inspirational (I don't know any other fictional characters who have made it into a real life hall of fame). And Rocky is the story of some guy who trained himself how to fight and still lost to some other guy. Also, Bruce Lee has become a legend from training himself to fight and beating people who were forgettable.

As for Hercules, underdog status is a relative term. A king of planetary gods is an underdog compared to a universal god. I believe Hercules was the underdog for his 12 Labors, or at least it was equal. He definitely didn't walk through it in his sleep.

The last point and probably best summary is this: Nobody gets credit for beating people weaker than themselves.

@tim2081 said:

The last point and probably best summary is this: Nobody gets credit for beating people weaker than themselves.

Which in no way means that characters have to be average joes to be marketable. Gods can fight other gods and be larger then life. This inability of Hollywood to get over the fact that we don't need protagonists in stories to share our problems or world view to enjoy their stories is a problem.

We don't need every character to be an average joe "who overcomes incredible odds" or some other bull. It's equally valid to write about Ramses conquering the known world or Hiawatha uniting the Iroquois tribes.