The rape problem with Joker

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#101 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Teerack: I do, it would be overused like killing Jean Grey or killing Robin. Every issue would be like a rape crisis center support group, nothing would ever get accomplished. Remember how DC sensationalized killing supes and crippling bats? there would not be an rape free woman in the DC universe, well except WW. But they would probably make supes do it under mind control. Thats all we need is another "women in the fridge" incident...

#102 Edited by Teerack (5741 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: Something tells me you don't read many boobs, watch many movies, or TV shows.

#103 Posted by Franchise1590 (298 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

@chasereis said:

The photos show it all. If joker wanted to rape her he sure as hell would have "implied" anything, it would have been on the net three minutes after. Jokers whole motif is to "shock" batman.

I also think Barbara would have said..something about being raped too.

I agree with this.

Joker is the kind of villain to brag about humiliating and violating people he would have jokes about it by now. Plus Barb would have mentioned it by now.

#104 Posted by sheldipez (73 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how that kind of storyline would effect any kind or Joker merchandise. You can get Freddy Krueger kids costumes, and we all know how much Freddy loved those children.

Are you marketing people anyway?

#105 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Teerack: Read Boobs? I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but you know that there are better things to do with boobs, right? I actually watch a lot of movies and TV shows and unfortunately am not seeing what you are talking about at all.

@Franchise1590: I really don't think Joker would pass up the opportunity at all. Actually if the Arkham Asylum myth was true I think that would be even more towards Joker MO than raping Batgirl.

#106 Posted by Franchise1590 (298 posts) - - Show Bio

What Asylum Myth?

#107 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't be surprised actually.

#108 Posted by Teerack (5741 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: Lol unless you don't watch or read any adult programs my point should be pretty obvious. Rape is in all of them and it doesn't dominate the whole story unless that's the entire point of the story. Saying "rape will be overused and be all over the place in comics" is a very naive thing to say.

#109 Posted by End_Boss (725 posts) - - Show Bio

Having read all three of the books mentioned in and around the OP (The Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Joker), I have never ever been under the impression that Joker was or is a rapist. Anyone who does is reading what they want to off the pages as opposed to what is actually there.

#110 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Teerack: Actually I watch a host of adult stories and some that involve rape as well. However I stand by my original statement, in comics rape has not been used as much as in TV so I still think it would be sensationalized and would likely damage some major characters unless a reboot occurs. With respect, the only naivety I find is the premise that writers in key books that would not use this topic to capitalize book sales and make that money at the expense of the story and the characters. At the end of the day a modern writer doesn't really care what they write just how many books they sell, thus populating their wallets. And knowing is half the battle...yo joe.

#111 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

The only time Joker's ever raped anyone was in the "Joker" book.

And that isn't canon.

#112 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14594 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

The only time Joker's ever raped anyone was in the "Joker" book.

And that isn't canon.

at least not anymore, but it still is a hell of a book.

#113 Posted by Billy Batson (57916 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

The only time Joker's ever raped anyone was in the "Joker" book.

And that isn't canon.

at least not anymore, but it still is a hell of a book.

Nah, it was never in continuity.
BB

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#114 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17803 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

The only time Joker's ever raped anyone was in the "Joker" book.

And that isn't canon.

that really happened !

#115 Posted by Teerack (5741 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: You should of just said from the start you were only talking about comics with low quality then.

#116 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@Teerack: Well Warner and Disney probably don't really care much about quality, so you may be right there. However if Warner or Disney felt that DC or Marvel was not profitable in comic book form they would shut them down and sell of the IP's to make money, so make no mistake about that. To them its business and businesses run from models, and comics most successful models are <insert bad incident here> happening to <insert superhero name here>. They drop the name to press and/or google bomb the net, cha-ching. So to close, quality or integrity are (sadly) a side effect, not an outcome to the comic business. I just think it's bad for business in the long term and I feel that the editors probably see that.

On a side note, a couple of friends were really upset when Tigra got beat down by the Hood. A lot of female fans would likely want a vat of blood from the company that did it too...

I'll digress there.

#117 Posted by Ultimate_Riddler (289 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker's capable, but it's just not something that crosses his mind much in my opinion. I don't believe he raped Barbara either.

#118 Posted by ZEELLO (223 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the problem with comic book villains. (or villains in any fiction really)

funny this thread was made because I was just having this thought, because I was playing Marvel TCG videogame and there's a group of villains apparently called Masters of Evil. Somehow I doubt they do anything really evil (at least not with being stopped in the nick of time). Villains can't be controversial, they have to be comic book bad. They have to rob a bank, take over the world, or unsuccessfully attempt to blow up something that contains people. (such as the world) Stuff like that. They will make children cry but never by harming them, instead by stealing their report card, or stealing candy.

But then again it's not necessarily a bad thing because despicable of villains are less interesting probably since they are no longer identifiable. If the villain was that evil the story becomes more about simply whether the hero can stop the villain. Writing this made me almost understand why rape Joker is opposed.. aside from one thing. Joker is evil and I will never identify with him, and I don't want to read anything with the Joker in it.

#119 Posted by Ultimate_Riddler (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@ZEELLO said:

This is the problem with comic book villains. (or villains in any fiction really)

funny this thread was made because I was just having this thought, because I was playing Marvel TCG videogame and there's a group of villains apparently called Masters of Evil. Somehow I doubt they do anything really evil (at least not with being stopped in the nick of time). Villains can't be controversial, they have to be comic book bad. They have to rob a bank, take over the world, or unsuccessfully attempt to blow up something that contains people. (such as the world) Stuff like that. They will make children cry but never by harming them, instead by stealing their report card, or stealing candy.

But then again it's not necessarily a bad thing because despicable of villains are less interesting probably since they are no longer identifiable. If the villain was that evil the story becomes more about simply whether the hero can stop the villain. Writing this made me almost understand why rape Joker is opposed.. aside from one thing. Joker is evil and I will never identify with him, and I don't want to read anything with the Joker in it.

I have never identified with The Joker and yet he is one of my all-time favorite villains. Maybe I'm just an anomaly in the statistics, but I've been fascinated by villains that I don't identify at all with.

#120 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10125 posts) - - Show Bio

Rape is about the violence and hurt people, not about sex.

He can rape, but that he can do a thing dont mean he will do it.

I mean he could get more fun of other things, like cutting your face or making you eat your own genitals.

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#121 Posted by adamrolls (40 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123 said:

The Joker could rape a nun and then put a gun to that nun's head and force her to anally violate a newborn baby with a crucifix and he'd record it and keep it on his person and laugh at it every Tuesday.

The Joker doesn't give a f**k.

It's the readers that do.

True shit!
#122 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

The Joker could rape a nun and then put a gun to that nun's head and force her to anally violate a newborn baby with a crucifix and he'd record it and keep it on his person and laugh at it every Tuesday.

The Joker doesn't give a f**k.

It's the readers that do.

@InnerVenom123 said:

The only time Joker's ever raped anyone was in the "Joker" book.

And that isn't canon.

I'm right twice.

Seems contradictory, but not so.

Since both are technically true.

#123 Posted by Vivke (11 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I hate to even think about it I'm sure he's capable of rape. Though I have some thoughts he may not be able have sex normally... whatever.

But still if he is able to do it that doesn't mean he will do it. Of course he doesn't have any kind of a code but I do think that there are things he finds too low for himself at least in some of his interpretetaions. And not every maniac killer is a rapist. Though Joker is a whole different story I know.

But what I think is also important is that anyhow we look at him his first motive is to disturb Batman or make him break his code and he can also do this by torturing and killing people. I don't see why rape would be so necessary in his plans. Though ofc he can change himself and his schemes anytime but I personally don't like that approach.

#124 Edited by Jayc1324 (11110 posts) - - Show Bio

If he raped her he would've told Gordon to make him angrier and go insane faster. He wouldn't rape her just for his own fun, his goal was to make Gordon go insane. I don't see the joker raping someone for his own pleasure. He just took naked pictures of her. Nothing in the story suggests he raped her.

#125 Posted by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

We sure do live in a messed up society when we can just accept brutal muder and torture in fiction as mundane and rape is off-limits. I'm not saying it is a minor offense, it is sure as hell a terrible thing to do to a person. However, a rape victim can go on to live a normal life, sure it would haunt them for the rest of their lives, but they can heal and find happiness later on with help. A murdered person is dead, gone, no able to go on. A murdered person's family will never be able to see their loved one ever again, never have any hope for them.

I think the Joker would be perfectly willing to rape someone if it caused them suffering. Sure Joker says he is an agent of choas, but maybe that is just him rationalizing his own messed-up sadistic pleasure. He sure as hell seems to enjoy causing pain in others and rape would just be another way for him to hurt people. In the NC-17 version of Joker, he'd be a serial killing, serial raping, torturing psycho evil genius.

However, rape is a very sensitive issue for people and that's why I think it would be unwise do implement it in the mainstream universe (although Elseworlds should be fair game)

#126 Edited by Vivke (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: Why do you think he would only rape women? If we go that far that he thinks rape is funny and since he has no moral code what's stopping him from raping children, men, babies, animals?

If we made him a rapist just because he finds everything funny then why would he discriminate anybody or anything?

This is the problem with that kind of argument... He would find it funny. Yes. Then he could also be a cannibal because it's funny, or forcing other people to eat themselves... should I continue?

I just don't understand why should every killer become a rapist. Joker could be completely asexual.

#127 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio
#128 Posted by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

As someone who has been raped [and if you makes jokes about it you're going to automatically get flagged, that is your warning], the thought that there are people are going 'Lol rape is hilarious and isn't a big deal' is abhorrent. I am not the same person as I was before I was assaulted and abused. That person is dead. They're gone and they are never, ever going to come back. I have flashbacks and ptsd. I can barely even interact with guys because they all remind me of the person that did it. He didn't even get a slap on the wrist. The rape as a plot device is awful and disgusting and the fact that there are comics that make it fashionable and not a big deal is horrendous and makes me sick to my stomach. Joker does not need to be a rapist. No villain needs to be a rapist. It's crude and offensive to survivors and it needs to stop. Simple as that. it isn't ~edgy~ to have it in your comic. It just shows you have no class in the slightest. Simple as that.

#129 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@vivke: Are you responding to the right person?

#130 Posted by Vivke (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: Yes the first paragraph was meant for you because according to you he would probably only rape women.

The rest of my comment was just a general response. I knew i should have seperated it... But oh well.

#131 Posted by Stuka69 (117 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say that rape of Barbara is very strongly implied in Killing Joke, in the pictures her position has been changed many times, so something that has not been shown has happened between the frames and pages. And the act of rape in itself is beside the point in the sense that Joker commits very blatant sex crime in this story by undressing and taking photos of Barbara...

#132 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

No idea why people think he raped that woman in Joker. He didn't. She was a prostitute, that he obviously abused and did f*cked up things with, but the "whatever it was worth" comment implied that she agreed to it on some level beforehand. The twisted morality of the Joker had him pay a prostitute for sexual acts, which represents an understanding of the "right thing to do" (paying for a service), contrasted heavily with his ultraviolent activities throughout the rest of the story. That's the joke.

The Joker's never been a rapist (except most likely in the Killing Joke, because Alan Moore often uses rape as a plot device), because it doesn't mean anything to him. The Joker kills people because life itself is a joke, but having sex is just something dumb apes do that they think is meaningful. The Joker is an exceedingly arrogant man who believes that he sees the world correctly, he would never sully himself by having sex with another creature. The Joker also doesn't torture people for a prolonged period that he has nothing against. He just kills them. Rape is giving them far too much attention, and is "beneath" the Joker, because it's not funny, it's just stupid.

#133 Posted by AweSam (7373 posts) - - Show Bio

@batpala: But murder is okay? The reason they don't make Joker a rapist is because they want people to like him. However, I don't think rape should be removed from comics. I get that it's a bad thing, but so is torture and murder. It could also be a trigger, but that's easily avoided by not reading it. The more modern comics try to be more realistic. As so, they face real topics. I think any writer who will go outside of that border and bring up subjects like rape, molestation, etc, is a good writer.

This is just my opinion, of course.

#134 Edited by lifeofvibe (3463 posts) - - Show Bio

WTF is this sh*t this should get locked...

#135 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@vivke: I'm looking back over my posts where precisely did I state (not imply) Joker would rape only women? I dont seem to be able to find that and as a person who grew up under the Arkham Asylum - Joker/Croc x Bats myth, I dont think I would say that implicitly.

#136 Posted by gor724 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

My guess is that since these books are mostly read by teens and young adults, they are trying to keep rape out of it. Murder is something that can be done in clever ways like laughing gas that makes everybody smile or other ways that aren't that graphic. There is only one way to do rape and it isn't appropriate for a book that does not carry a mature imprint.

But Alan Moore wrote it, and he can get away with anything because he's Alan Moore. And are Batman comics still being read by teens and young adults? My 13 year old self would have shat my pants reading Death of the Family. So I don't think comics are for kids anymore, and I think they stopped being for kids after Dark Knight Returns.

#137 Posted by SUNMAN (7221 posts) - - Show Bio

The original image form the comic has been released via twitter by a few websites

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/12/01/original-killing-joke-artwork-reveals-greater-sexual-intent-for-batgirl/

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2013/12/08/Revealed-DC-Comic-Was-to-Have-Featured-Rape-and-Torture-of-Batgirl

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/12/original-killing-joke-art-reignites-debate-about-torture-scene/

http://www.hitfix.com/news/original-killing-joke-art-depicts-more-graphic-torture-scene

http://moviepilot.com/stories/1190376-controversial-comic-batman-the-killing-joke-reveals-more-explicit-artwork

I don't really think this changes anything from the comics despite what the article says. The rape is very strongly implied. Those who don't see it chose not to because they don't want to in my opinion. Which is fine it's a comic readers can interpret it as they want to, it's not like we actually see the act, but the implication is pretty evident you've got to do some cartwheels to come up with alternative options imo.

#138 Edited by Dr_Harlequin (483 posts) - - Show Bio

@sunman: But would the rape fit with the whole flashbacks of the Joker's normal life with Jeanie?

I, myself, don't think it would. >.>

#139 Edited by SUNMAN (7221 posts) - - Show Bio

@dr_harlequin: I don't really see how that would impact or over-rule the Joker Barbra scene and what is implied to have happened in the pictures shown to Gordon.

Not to mention Alan Moore write this story and we all know his track record with sexual assault in fiction

#140 Posted by GustavoBurciaga1 (74 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker once said that he prefers his past to be multiple choice that way he can choose the one he likes best. Shouldn't this statement be true for his crimes as well? The only facts that are shown are the he shot Barbra, stripped her naked, took pictures and send them to her father. Things we know about Joker are that he has no limits when it comes to crime but he rather do them in style. He wants to leave a trademark something for people to remember him by. Being a rapist isn't in his nature BUT toying around with the minds of a people is. As I said nowhere in the comic does it state or show Barbra being raped by the Joker but the pictures that were given to Jim Gordon showed his daughter bloody and naked so any father would automatically assume that his daughter was raped, shot and left for dead. But from what we know of the Joker doing something so tasteless is not in his nature so what if instead he just wanted to create the illusion that he raped Barbra to mess with the mind of James Gordon? This allows the "multiple choice" aspect that Joker seems to enjoy because it allows us to argue weather or not the act of rape was committed or not.

#141 Posted by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

I read that the Joker tried to rape Harley in The Last Laugh to have a heir.

#142 Posted by SupBatz (1727 posts) - - Show Bio

@deviousbastard: Not really "rape". He demanded that she mother his child but after her refusal he decided he'd rather kill her, if I remember correctly. He never really took any steps towards actually raping her.

#143 Posted by lifeofvibe (3463 posts) - - Show Bio

@stuka69: jesus i did not remember that part 0_0 yeah im going with it he raped barbara but it was expexted coming from the joker its ironic concidering that some people thank hes gay

#144 Posted by DeviousBastard (136 posts) - - Show Bio

@supbatz: "Have sex with me or die" is pretty close though.

#145 Posted by comedy_brosUSA (768 posts) - - Show Bio

joker is known for this stuff. so after awhile it becomes normal for his character

#146 Posted by carcharodon (7 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does the Joker never rape anyone? Because that isn't what he does. He doesn't feel any sexual attraction to anyone. He is a sadistic psychopath who loves killing people, causing mayhem, and of course the little "games" he plays with Batman. He has no motivation or urge to rape anyone. Furthermore, why do you think his crimes are unrealistic? That is actually what I like about the Joker. He doesn't use superpowers, instead using conventional weapons combined with sadistic versions of classic pranks to kill people. The Joker gas may be imaginary, but their is certainly the possibility of using a combination of real life chemical agents, like nerve toxins, to get similar results. The most realistic thing about him, however, is his personality. Many people think that the Joker is evil to the point of being inhuman. Such people don't understand human nature. In reality, their are plenty of people like the Joker out there. Sure, they don't dress up like a clown or have white skin, but they do what they do because they enjoy it. I've heard of plenty of people like that. I recall hearing about a similar person being executed not to long ago near where I live. The fact of the matter is, it is because we are human that we are capable of such horrible and unspeakable things. Within each of us, their is the capacity for great good and terrible evil, and their are any number of factors that could push someone to become like the Joker. As for the fact that no one knows who he really is, that is also realistic. There are plenty of examples of people from throughout history whom we know nothing about until they turned to crime, including what their birth name is. Blackbeard is a prime example. Although many people believe his real name was Edward Teach, no one knows for certain, as we know virtually nothing about his early life and childhood. Jack the Ripper is another. He was never identified and never caught. Now, granted, today we have a lot of advanced technology that makes this extremely difficult to do, but it isn't impossible. So, personality wise, Joker is one of the more realistic villains of the DC universe. As for the fact that he doesn't rape or molest anyone, you don't have to do those things to be the ultimate incarnation of evil. The Joker's sadistic form of evil is far beyond that of a simple rapist and child molester. That would kind of be below him to stoop to doing that. His crimes are far worse than that. Also, your argument that it would hurt the sales of DC comics doesn't really hold up, either. Marvel has alluded to rape on numerous occasions, and they are still doing pretty well. The Joker doesn't rape anyone because it simply isn't in his character. The mainstream Joker has never really shown any signs of sexual attraction to anyone of any sex. Look at his one-sided relationship with Harley. She clearly loves the Joker, and whenever they are together she would practically do anything for him, but the Joker merely sees her as a means to an end. A simple pawn and nothing more. When her usefulness is at an end, he would kill her without hesitation, and enjoy it too. Finally, as for The Killing Joke, the Joker never raped Barbara. He merely undressed her and took photos of her in order to use the pictures to psychologically torture Gordon. Like he said in the comic, he simply wanted to prove a point. So, like I said, the Joker doesn't rape people or molest kids because it simply isn't in his character to do so. His evil goes far beyond that of a rapist or a pedophile.

#147 Posted by carcharodon (7 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejokerha:

Code of honor? What code of honor? The Joker doesn't have a code of honor. He is completely insane and sadistic. If he wanted to rape someone, he would, but that just isn't what he does. Would a villain with a sense of honor tell somebody that if they didn't do what he said, he would cut out his little girl's throat and make him eat it (Death of the Family)? Would he beat someone's son to the brink of death in front of their eyes and then, despite the fact that they had betrayed their family and served them loyally, leave them tied up with said some in a warehouse rigged to blow (Death in the Family)? The Joker doesn't have a sense of honor. He just doesn't rape people because he doesn't want to or need to.

#148 Posted by Erik (32060 posts) - - Show Bio

I always assumed it was rape and from what I understand, the rape was intentionally implied. It doesn't make much sense to me that the Joker would commit one sexual crime using Batgirl as his victim but not the most extreme of sexual crimes. Especially when his intent was to drive Gordon insane. I have to agree that even though it never said she was raped and they haven't done much to explore it since, it is implied rather clearly and it's the readers that chose to pretend otherwise because it makes them uncomfortable.

#149 Edited by Ms-Lola (2304 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread is a tad upsetting. Rape should never be used as a plot device, ever, in any comic. Without proper representation of what rape really is and the effects on its victims, it has no business in any medium as a catalyst or motivator for any protagonist to seek restitution. I'm not saying it should be avoided, rape is unfortunately a common enough occurrence in our society, but a panel or two of the victim in tears isn't enough to properly illustrate its devastating effect on them, and those around them. A panel or two with the event happening off-panel followed by a focus on recovery throughout the story line is much more responsible, and realistic. At least with someone being killed, there's a funeral and expressed grief with all characters involved. A side shot of the victim in tears through the doorway of a hospital room as the only follow up is in my view, disgusting. Just an example of the lack of victim focus in general, not just this story.

As for this thread, I do believe the Joker raped Barbara but I viewed it as an emotionless and methodical process purely for the effect it would have on her father. I'm not impressed with how it was presented, but the idea the Joker did it for anything close to sexual gratification runs counter to what I believe the character is about.

#150 Posted by Asthma2 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't believe anyone is trying to add rape to the Joker's MO, it is simply implied that he would do such a thing. Not for pleasure, but because his goal is to prove that even the most upstanding people can be driven insane. If he believed raping someone could serve that goal, there is no reason he wouldn't do it. He doesn't care about people, and he thinks pain is hilarious. Rape is incredibly painful for the victim and their friend's and family. The OP already mentioned that if you don't want to have the Joker be a rapist, it's because of your own discomfort, and the closet thing to rebuttal's I've seen simply say "I don't want the Joker to be a rapist." One more thing, when he doesn't take pleasure in killing someone, it's because there isn't any way he can make it funny. It's because it's a part of the plan that doesn't involve pleasure. It doesn't mean he feels remorse.

People uncomfortable with the Joker being a rapist, are people who want to romanticize the idea of a sociopath. That's ludicrous. Sociopaths rape, and one day when they are the mainstream heroes, rapists will be the only thing left to romanticize. I'll bet they start with child molesters under the argument that they "can't help it."
People make me sick.

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