Was Joe Quesada's retconn of Spiderman a good idea?

#1 Posted by Blazing Eagle (280 posts) - - Show Bio

Was Joe Quesada's retconn of Spiderman a good idea? Furthermore what other ideas could have been done instead of the retconn story titled "one more day"

#2 Posted by theCeruleanGestalt (1148 posts) - - Show Bio

Some retcon was needed, IMO, since Spider-Man's life has been pretty messed up since Civil War (not revealing his identity would have been enough as a retcon). But the way it was handled......ugh. The marriage should have stayed, they should have had a daughter and Mephisto shouldn't have been there at all. That's my view of it.

/CG

#3 Posted by Cosmic Sentinel (3749 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been discussed ad infinitum on the forums.

#4 Posted by Kain Echnida (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

TheCleverGuy says:

"**Some** retcon was needed, IMO, since Spider-Man's life has been pretty messed up since Civil War (not revealing his identity would have been enough as a retcon). But the way it was handled......ugh. The marriage should have stayed, they should have had a daughter and Mephisto shouldn't have been there at all. That's my view of it. /CG"

Agreed. But I'll have to go into further detail with this one later on.

#5 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

There were multiple other ways to deal with Spider Man's I.D. being revealed than to erase 20 years of Spider Man history. There are telepaths, Dr. Strange, you name it, there were options. They could have even just rewound history to when he revealed his I.D. rather than 20 years of his history.

OMD was specifically aimed at the marriage. That was Queseda taking a shot at one of the only two longstanding marriages in Marvel Comics. For whatever his personal reasons are.

Which is the problem sometimes when you get people who grew up as fans of a comic writing the comic as adults: They start writing fan fiction of their own personal desires rather than writing a comic as a professional.

#6 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

The identity reveal was already dealt with in Avengers Initiative whether or not people read the book.

Moderator
#7 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

O.K. So there was absolutely no excuse for OMD.

#8 Posted by Akira Overdrive (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"The identity reveal was already dealt with in Avengers Initiative whether or not people read the book."

The clones right?

#9 Posted by Satyrquaze (4542 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't been a fan of Quesada's since I first heard his name.

#10 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup, the Scarlet Spiders.

Moderator
#11 Posted by Slinger (7640 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Yup, the Scarlet Spiders."

I read that, it seemed like nobody, not even at Marvel HQ payed much attention to it.

#12 Posted by fesak (6981 posts) - - Show Bio

Worst. Retcon. Ever.

Moderator
#13 Posted by Kain Echnida (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

fesak says:

"Worst. Retcon. Ever."

Fesak for President.

#14 Posted by zero edge (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

I would've rather that they kill off MJ then what OMD turned out to be.

#15 Posted by Kain Echnida (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

zero edge says:

"I would've rather that they kill off MJ then what OMD turned out to be."

Agreed. I think it would've been better if MJ was killed off. Then again, I enjoy Peter when he's pissed off, gotta love the death and chaos.

#16 Posted by Infinate Vengeance (12 posts) - - Show Bio

fesak says:

"Worst. Retcon. Ever."

My thoughts exactly, Now, sure, Their had to be some kind of Retcon because what Joe did was un-holy (I believe JQ just might be the son of satan). Seriously, Spidey unmasked, his life went 360 down the toilet and he was a wanted man. Sure, A Retcon was needed but Mephisto? Who has ever made a deal with Mephisto that turned out good? Ghost Rider? Doctor Doom's Mother? Anyone?

I mean c'mon, I'll trade up my Gorgeous super-model wife all for some 90 yr. old crone who has nothing but B!tch and been a target for supervillains to abduct.

Aunt May was kinda die anyway regardless of if Kingpin shot her.

Joe Quesada is a joke for what he did to spidey in OMD.

However, BND is possibly one of the greatest Spidey arcs ever.

(BTW I'm Midnight Lantern)

#17 Posted by Infinate Vengeance (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#18 Posted by ChrisAngel (3955 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like the fact that they pretty much turned back what's years of history through OMD. You took a lot of what made Peter Parker responsible and grown up in a sense and turned him pretty much into a freewheeling kid again who's got to learn these life lessons all over again.

But there have been a few good story arcs in BND. THat doesnt mean I like the fact a retcon has happened in the least though.

chuckle

#19 Posted by Kain Echnida (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

ChrisAngel says:

"I don't like the fact that they pretty much turned back what's years of history through OMD. You took a lot of what made Peter Parker responsible and grown up in a sense and turned him pretty much into a freewheeling kid again who's got to learn these life lessons all over again. But there have been a few good story arcs in BND. THat doesnt mean I like the fact a retcon has happened in the least though. *chuckle*"

I agree with you Chris. I disagree with the retconning, but in the long run, I'll have to say that so far, it was worth it even though I want Spider-Man to have a bigger part in the Marvel Universe, especially with this whole Skrull Invasion. It sucks that he's not tied in.

#20 Posted by Midnight Lantern (6011 posts) - - Show Bio

ChrisAngel says:

"I don't like the fact that they pretty much turned back what's years of history through OMD. You took a lot of what made Peter Parker responsible and grown up in a sense and turned him pretty much into a freewheeling kid again who's got to learn these life lessons all over again. But there have been a few good story arcs in BND. THat doesnt mean I like the fact a retcon has happened in the least though. *chuckle*"

Agreed.

#21 Posted by Blazing Eagle (280 posts) - - Show Bio

As a professional writer ladies and gentlemen. I would have to say the writers could of added more suspense and drama to the story had they continue forward rather than the retconn. It would be more suspenful and dramatic to have Peter deal witht the death of his Aunt May and at the same time be on the run from Iron Man and all the rest of the government agents like SHIELD and the Mighty Avengers.

#22 Posted by Blazing Eagle (280 posts) - - Show Bio

Check out my new Forum titled "Retconn's good, Bad, or a neccessary evil? on the general discussion tab

#23 Posted by Kain Echnida (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

Blazing Eagle says:

"As a professional writer ladies and gentlemen. I would have to say the writers could of added more suspense and drama to the story had they continue forward rather than the retconn. It would be more suspenful and dramatic to have Peter deal witht the death of his Aunt May and at the same time be on the run from Iron Man and all the rest of the government agents like SHIELD and the Mighty Avengers."

I'm inclined to agree with you. If they were smart enough, they could've handled Aunt May's death alot better by like, simply killing her. I would've enjoyed seeing Spider-Man go back after Fisk and kill him off. I would've enjoyed seeing alot of didfferent things occur in the story. It would've been great seeing Spider-Man still in the black suit dealing with everything that's happened. Now, I'm actually kind of starting to miss Mary Jane.

#24 Posted by Maxmachine (35 posts) - - Show Bio

I don´t thi k it was necessary at this moment i mean, look at the most recent storylines. It would absolutely make no difference if Mary Jane was there. The thing is Quesada wants to work in their relationship creating it. I´ll explain, Joe Quesada didn´t wanted to work on Stan Lee´s version, so he wants to create a new one. I see that as completely unnecesary. Whta´s the point? after all, the spider-marriage was the most original of all, he (asides with superman) was the only superhero able to live a normal marriage, instead  the rest of the heroes are unnable to have normal relationships (ussualy their girlfriends/wives gets killed or leaves them after seeing they will barely compete against their secret i.d.)so i am trying to find a good reason to retconn Spider-Man and i just can´t find it.

#25 Posted by Blazing Eagle (280 posts) - - Show Bio

Well if it was a good idea or not probably a personal opinion. but here are some hardcore facts that may prove if the retconn was good or not

As of right now Marvel has slashed their subscrpition price to Amazing Spiderman to over 50%. A few months ago it was 45%.
As a matter of fact whrere I live all the comic books in the Denver-Colorado area have cut tremendously cutt down on their orders of Amazing Spiderman because it has not sold well in their stores.

Here's my theory:  I think Marvel's ASM has not sold well and that's why for the huge price cut. But that's just my theory based upon the information I have available.

#26 Posted by Cosmic Sentinel (3749 posts) - - Show Bio
Maxmachine said:
"I don´t thi k it was necessary at this moment i mean, look at the most recent storylines. It would absolutely make no difference if Mary Jane was there. The thing is Quesada wants to work in their relationship creating it. I´ll explain, Joe Quesada didn´t wanted to work on Stan Lee´s version, so he wants to create a new one. I see that as completely unnecesary. Whta´s the point? after all, the spider-marriage was the most original of all, he (asides with superman) was the only superhero able to live a normal marriage, instead  the rest of the heroes are unnable to have normal relationships (ussualy their girlfriends/wives gets killed or leaves them after seeing they will barely compete against their secret i.d.)so i am trying to find a good reason to retconn Spider-Man and i just can´t find it."

I've not thought of it that way, we should all be grateful OMD had that whole silly deal-with-the-devil as at least it was different to the way most comic writers deal with unwanted love intrests by leaving them in the refridgerator.
#27 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio

is this thread necessary?

#28 Posted by Cosmic Sentinel (3749 posts) - - Show Bio
Resonate said:
"is this thread necessary?
"

Is any thread really necessary? In the grand scheme of things, no. But then, the forums aren't about necessity but discussion and there is one here so I guess this thread serves it's purpose. Your post (and indeed this one to a lesser extent) is entirely pointless.
#29 Posted by OhTru (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

  

 
 
 
J. Michael Straczynski s’explique
 
http://www.mysterieuxetonnants.com/?p=3288
 
 
 
 
JMS's version  of OMD?
 
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756

 

There’s no doubt whatsoever that “One More Day” has been the most controversial Spider-Man story for fans in decades, dwarfing even the reaction to 2006’s unmasking at the end of Civil War #2.

As readers who’ve followed the story behind the story know, that controversy even extends to the story’s creators. On December 4th, “One More Day” writer J. Michael Straczynski posted a response to questions about his involvement with the story to rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe (which was archived at the JMSNews site).

Responding to questions about the quality of the story, and reconciling the story with JMS’ larger body of work, Straczynski wrote:

Speak of the devil and he shall appear....

For whatever it's worth, the situation is not as clear cut as one might hope. The reality of any writer working for any company, DC or Marvel or Image, is that when you're handed a franchise character, you're basically entrusted with something that the company owns, and the company has final say in what happens to that character, because as a writer, you're only there for a certain amount of time and then the next guy has to come in. Spider-Man belongs to Marvel, not to me, and at the end of the day, however much I may disagree with things, and however much I may make it very CLEAR to all parties that I disagree, I have to honor their position.

In the Gwen storyline, yes, I wanted it to be Peter's kids, Joe over-rode that, which is his right as EIC. I got the flack for that decision, but them's the breaks.

In the current storyline, there's a lot that I don't agree with, and I made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel, especially Joe. I'll be honest: there was a point where I made the decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those. As an executive producer as well as a writer, I've sometimes had to insist that my writers make changes that they did not want to make, often loudly so. They were sure I was wrong. Mostly I was right. Sometimes I was wrong. But whoever sits in the editor's chair, or the executive producer's chair, wears the pointy hat of authority, and as Dave Sim once noted, you can't argue with a pointy hat.

So at the end of the day, all one can do is try to do the best one can with the notes one is given, and try to execute them in a professional way...because who knows, the other guy may be right. The only thing I *can* tell you, with absolute certainty, is that what Joe does with Spidey and all the rest of the Marvel characters, he does out of a genuine love of the character. He's not looking to sabotage anything, he's not looking to piss off the fans, he genuinely believes in the rightness of his views not out of a sense of "I'm the boss" but because he loves these characters and the Marvel universe.

And right or wrong, you have to respect that.

Straczynski’s message added gasoline to a smoldering fire of fan expectations and concerns about the ending to and ramifications of the story, and was interpreted in a variety of ways by readers.

In a series of interviews with Quesada about “One More Day,” Comic Book Resource’s Jonah Weiland asked the Marvel Editor-in-Chief about Straczynski’s posted comments, noting that, “In the end, we didn't publish the story he wanted to write.”

Quesada went on to explain that Straczynski’s original conclusion for “One More Day” wasn't what Quesada and Marvel were expecting and would have negatively affected the upcoming “Brand New Day” issues of Amazing Spider-Man, which were already underway.

Quesada also explained that he wasn’t comfortable with Straczynski’s method of retconning the marriage out of existence, saying: “Also, the science that Joe was going to apply to the retcon of the marriage would have made over 30 years of Spider-Man books worthless, because they never would have had happened. We would have also had a "Crisis" in the Marvel Universe because it would have reset way too many things outside of the Spider-Man titles. We just couldn't go there and in the end we weren't expecting that kind of story.

“I also think fans are misreading what Joe meant by disagreeing with the story. When we came up with the idea and methodology behind "One More Day," Joe was a part of the group that came up with the story. When we were done and felt we had it nailed, Joe told me that he was going to cycle off of Amazing Spider-Man and that he wanted to move on to other stuff. I told Joe that it was his call: He could close out his Amazing Spider-Man run however he wanted, or he could end it with the story we all created for "One More Day." He said he really wanted to write "One More Day." So Joe never said anything that indicated he disagreed with Peter and MJ's marriage being dissolved. If he had disagreed with the idea, he certainly would have told us and he certainly would not have asked to write the story. So like I said, I think people were reading into his on-line comments as opposed what I believe he was saying.”

Earlier in the week, Newsarama had contacted Straczynski to see if he would be willing to talk about “One More Day,” now that the storyline had concluded. He declined.

Yesterday, in part three of CBR’s interview with Quesada, the E-i-C further discussed the changes that were made to Straczynski’s original storyline, saying that when he, Axel Alonso and Tom Brevoort received the script for part four: “the script we had just received was not the one we were expecting, and the events that were being set forth in that issue were going to conflict with the work that was already being done on “Brand New Day.” I thought that perhaps Joe had forgotten some of the stuff discussed at the summit meetings and the subsequent e-mails and discussions that followed, but that didn’t seem to be the case; this was the story he wanted to tell. In his story, Mephisto was going to change continuity from as far back as issues #96-98 from 1971. In Joe’s story, Peter drops the dime on Harry, and that helps get him into rehab right away. Consequently, MJ stays with Harry, and Gwen never dies and never has her affair with Norman, etc., etc. And in the end, Peter and MJ are never married.”

To Quesada, that solution discounted every issue of Amazing Spider-Man since that 1971 story arc, and by doing that, would have caused far-reaching and unmanageable changes throughout the larger Marvel Universe. “In other words, there was just no way to tell Joe’s story without blowing up the entire Marvel U and every Spider-Man’s fan’s collection,” Quesada said.

“What we originally discussed with Joe and the group was much simpler and cleaner: The wedding? Something happened on the wedding day that prevented it from happening. The unsmasking? Mephisto makes people forget it; much like the Sentry, it happened -- it’s just no longer remembered. And Harry? Well, there’s always a price to pay when you make a deal with the devil. Is it a perfect solution? Absolutely not. Does it get us to where we want to be? Yes.”

Quesada ended his explanation of the changes made by publicly apologizing to Straczynski for having to change his original story.

Thursday morning, Newsarama received an unsolicited e-mail from Straczynski, in which, he wrote:

Having seen Joe's third interview on OMD, I think he raised a lot of fair issues. I think most of it represents accurately our conversations. It does, however, omit some of the main concerns I had with the resolution...concerns not mentioned therein, most probably as an oversight. As you know from my prior email, I was content not to respond to the prior interviews because I don't need to have the last word. (Newsarama Note: this last was in reference to Straczynski’s earlier e-mail mentioned earlier in which he declined a “One More Day” post mortem conversation.)

But there are some vital omissions in the interview, including the primary reason I finally threw up my hands on the book, which had mainly to do with how the resolution was handled.

To explain, here's the conversation I had with Marvel, in sum:

"So what does Mephisto do?" I ask.

"He makes everybody forget Peter's Spider-Man."

"Uh, huh. So Aunt May's still in the hospital --"

"No, he saves Aunt May."

"But if all he does is save her life and make everybody forget he's Spidey, she still has a scar on her midsection."

"No, he makes that go away too."

"Okay...:

"Then he wakes up in her house."

"The house that was burned down?"

"Right."

"But how --"

"Mephisto undoes that as well."

"Okay. And the guys who shot at Peter and May and were killed, they're alive too? Mephisto can bring guys back from the dead?"

"It's all part of the spell."

"And Doc Strange can't tell?"

"No,"

"And the newspaper articles? News footage?"

"Joe, it's been forgotten."

"I'm just asking is that stuff there or not there?"

"Not there. And Peter's web shooters are back."

"Is this the same spell or a different spell?"

"Same spell."

"How does making people forget he's Spidey bring back his web shooters?"

"It's magic, okay?"

"I see. And Harry's back."

"Right."

"And Mephisto does this too."

"Yep."

"So is Harry back from the dead, or has he been alive? If they ask him, hey Harry, what did you do last summer, will he remember? And the year before? And the year before? If he says they all went on a picnic two years ago, will they remember it?"

"It's --"

"Because if he now has a life he remembers, if he's not back from the dead, then you've changed the continuity you said you didn't want to change. Those are your only options: he was brought back from the dead, and there's a grave, and people remember him dying --"

"Mephisto changes THEIR memories too."

"-- or he's effectively been alive as far as our characters know, so he's been alive all along, so either way as far as our characters are concerned, continuity's been violated going back to 1971.

How do you explain that?"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."

And that's the part I had a real problem with, maybe the single biggest problem. There's this notion that magic fixes everything. It doesn't. "It's magic, we don't have to explain it." Well, actually, yes, you do. Magic has to have rules. And this is clearly not just a case of one spell making everybody forget he's Spidey...suddenly you're bringing back the dead, undoing wounds, erasing records, reinstating web shooters, on and on and on.

What I wanted to do was to make one small change to history, a tiny thing, whose ripples we could control to only touch what editorial wanted to touch, making changes we could explain logically. I worked for weeks to come up with a timeline that would leave every other bit of continuity in place. It was rigorous, and as logical as I could make it. In the end of OMD as published, Harry is alive and he's always been alive as far as the characters know...so how is that different than he was alive the whole time?

It made no sense to me.

Still doesn't. It's sloppy. It violates every rule of writing fiction of the fantastic that I and every other SF/Fantasy writer knows you can't violate. It's fantasy 101.

It troubled me that it's MJ and not Peter who is the one to actively make the decision.

I'd originally written the first issue of OMD to take place directly after May gets shot, and in fact turned in the first script directly after she gets nailed. Editorial decided to build in a block of issues for One More Day...meaning May would be in that bed for almost a *year* which I thought was just too long to make work.

And yes, I wanted to retcon the Gwen twins out of continuity, which was something I always assumed I could do at the end of my run. I wasn't allowed to do this, and yes, it pissed me off. I felt I was left holding the bag for something I wanted to get rid of, and taking the rap for a writing lapse that I had never committed. Why this aspect was not brought up in the other interview, you'd have to ask Joe.

Mainly, the book was rewritten in the editorial offices to a degree that the words weren't mine any longer, to a certain degree in three, and massively in four. If the work represents me, I leave the name there and take the rap; if it doesn't, then that's a different situation. There's just not much of my work there, especially once you get to the last dong of midnight...everything after that was written by editorial.

Whether my work is good or it sucks, it's mine. What came out of the end of OMD wasn't, hence my desire to omit the writing credit. Joe graciously offered to share it on the last issue. I think that helped. Credit where credit is due.

What I don't want is for this to turn into a public pissing match. Joe did what he did because he thought it was the right thing to do, and as EIC that's his call, not mine. I respect and admire him. I hope this will be the end of the matter.

I just felt that there were some important bits not addressed, that needed to be

.


.
#30 Posted by CATMANEXE--defunct (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

no offense, but its been a year since this thread and theres still 
people who dont know that it wasnt actually a retcon ? its a long
term story arc thats been unraveling at the seams, and appears
not too far away from coming to a head if that " Puzzle " promo
meant anything, as well as current events.

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