Who else wants the events of Phoenix: Endsong retconned?

#1 Posted by thewidowsbite (147 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the heck out of that story, especially the art, but the one thing that bugged me was the fact that the writers established Jean and the Phoenix as being one. What sense does that make when the Phoenix has been essentially a mass murderer and Marvel retconned Jean being the Phoenix during that time in order for her to be absolved. Her being one with the PF just makes those events "her" again. In addition, when Jean has the PF she is portrayed as being immensely powerful but often gets killed off because of it.

Doesn't Jean deserve to have her own storyline and to grow on her own without forever being in the shadow of the PF? In almost every version of Jean there is she has the PF, making her more and more predictable. Everytime its the same story, people are just trying to tell it in different ways and pass it off as original and innovative.

Why not put her in a whole other direction entirely and have her go solo for a while without any team whatsoever? If not that then anything that doesn't involve her being with the PF or in a love triangle with Scott and Logan. I don't know about you, but I would be extremely upset if they brought her back and gave her the same scenarios, YET AGAIN. I will seriously give up on reading the X-Men if that happens because Jean honestly deserves some newer and more interesting storytelling.

Marvel has retconned various things before, and if they can retcon Spider-Man's marriage to Mary Jane (which was the worst move they could have ever done and is the picture next to the definition of 'PIS'), they can retcon Jean's essentially symbiotic relationship with the Phoenix.

#2 Edited by Mercy_ (93330 posts) - - Show Bio

That wasn't established in Endsong IIRC, it was established during Morrison's run of New X-Men, when the Phoenix (and ability to attract it) was retconned as Jean's secondary mutation.

#3 Posted by PowerHerc (86141 posts) - - Show Bio

Whatever they do, Marvel should bring Jean back.

#4 Posted by EmmaGrace (1049 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress
Well I'm glad that was retconned, what a stupid secondary mutation. Attracting cosmic beings? What a joke. 
I like the idea of them being the same, and even with that being said they can create a storyline without it.
#5 Posted by Charmix (12084 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked Endsong, it was perfect. 
I thought Jean's secondary mutation was the return of her telekinesis ? I gotta re-read it

#6 Posted by EmmaGrace (1049 posts) - - Show Bio

I was unaware that Jean had a secondary mutation, and I like her with just TK and TP. Why add more...
#7 Posted by Charmix (12084 posts) - - Show Bio
@EmmaGrace: "Because Jean is the house where I live." or something similar said like that spoken by the Phoenix lol.
#8 Posted by Mercy_ (93330 posts) - - Show Bio

@EmmaGrace: I hate the idea of them being one and the same. The Phoenix Force is a terrible plot device.

#9 Posted by EmmaGrace (1049 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress
I think it's been overused, but to try and pretend like it and Jean are anything but the same at this point would be insulting to Jean after all the crap she's been through with it. Just leave it off in space and Jean on Earth, sperated by body but have them connected through mind or some BS that can get her the hell away from it without pretending they aren't connected in anyway. And keep it in space, permenatly.
#10 Posted by SC (15118 posts) - - Show Bio

Great thread and well written. For me, though, I actually didn't interpret either Endsong or Morrison's run as establishing Jean and Phoenix as being one. I could see how it could be interpreted that way and so, so many arguments with pro Jean and Phoenix not only are one in the same, but should be, and always have (uh...) but yeah. Greg Pak tends to be pretty literal, sometimes, sort of, but even his writing has a lot of ambiguous character connections with each other, sort of like his running idea that Hulk is the son of Gaea. (A cynic could take that as Pak taking a dig at Thor fans as Thor has been established as the son of Gaea for a while now) and Morrison's writing isn't something many comic fans are good at reading in the sense that many will just take their interpretation as the factual truth and anything but.  
So in that sense, I try to point out first, I'm not really sure myself, but at the same time, if your like me, and think creatively Jean's what say you... destiny, is separate to that of the giant fiery cosmic bird then I think there is enough narrative to support that as well. Any narrative references to her being one with the Phoenix to me always come off more as Jean being on the same level as the Phoenix energy empowering her? No more tension, or struggle, but peace, inner peace, sort of enlightenment. Not with all of the Phoenix though, just the stuff she has. Which I can buy is a lot, seeing as it favored Jean. Sot of like viewing Jean as a glass, and the Phoenix as another liquid poured into Jean. and as Jean is the WPotC, the two liquids are perfectly blended. She is one with the Phoenix, but doesn't mean Jean is the entire Ocean. Referring to the ocean being a lucky turn of phrase because the Multiverse is essentially infinite and so can and sort of is time, as in we know the Universes in Marvel recycle (as opposed to one or our own Universe where time is relative) so to assume Jean had all that locked up power? Well Grant Morrison isn't that limited a writer. Plus even as WPotC he wrote her in a whole room of other Phoenixes.  
So I don't think there needs to be a retcon... more so a writer who really wants to write these aspects seriously, maybe clarify and tidy some stuff up, but not in a casual, brisk way. I mean really think about these things with an expanded mind, even to the point being aware of some cosmology, multiverse theories, oh and even some Chakra, because I think I remember some earlier writers either basing or incorporating that into the Phoenix model. Also a fan of Jean herself.  
That last part, because thats what I agree with in the OP the most, Jean, as in Jean the mutant, Jean the character with a personality less so than Jean the power and wish fulfillment power fantasy (Jean the mutant is pretty powerful anyway, or at least was supposed to be, we never actually got to find out) but yeah, she deserves some strong character based and creative stories. Grounded. Dark Phoenix was not the epic it was, or as poignant as it was, right off the bat, it was aided by like 100 plus issues that came before it. You need some breathing space in between a grounded more humble Jean before you even try to do anything original again with Phoenix Force and/or you send Jean away from a bunch of characters and themes she should be participating in. At least that's what I think is creatively best for her and X-Men. 

#11 Edited by Postacrat (713 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish they would retconn a few things myself, but all in all I'm just plain tired of Jean Grey and all her Hype.....Just sayin...Any Summers brothers too.  They should either start getting to their ultimate purposes and take them to the next level, because all this speculation about their relevancy in the Marvel Universe is just getting old to me...That's my opinion though..

#12 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23390 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd just retcon Endsong out of continuity because it was terrible.

#13 Posted by Patroklos (18 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: I do not think it was completely retconned because in All-New X-Men during the trial of Jean grey, it's mentioned how e Shi'Ar killed off Jean's family "just in case" because the Phoenix was attracted to Jean Grey's genes. So I think the retcon was ignored...then Jean gets mad and defeats gladiator for killing her 616 family members, just because the Phoenix was attracted to their lineage, and wanted to prevent another "Jean/Dark Phoenix" incident...

But in reality nowadays with these not so great comic book writers who knows what was retconned and what wasn't. Like some retconned things are recognized and others aren't while other plot devices are ambiguous. I feel like no marvel writer cares to look into the past to see the events that have taken place, or the level of power of characters anymore. Like, no one cares about continuity, and to be quite frankly it's kind of annoying, because it creates confusion and misrepresented characters. I personally like Phoenix: Endsong, and do not wish for it to be retconned, it was successful and positively received by critics and other fans-alike. I loved it, and I like Jean merging with the force, because after all that was how they started out...I think Jean already paid more than enough for her crimes as "Dark Phoenix", her family has been completely killed, and she killed herself. What more punishment do they want? Cyclops killed professor X and hurt others, during AvX (which was horrible IMO) and he hasn't really paid for anything, except losing Emma and he doesn't seem that upset over it. Though I do like the fact that 616 Jean as an abstract being too, her level of power merged with the Phoenix just makes it right for her to be an abstract and not human. I don't think there's a place for an abstract, fully merged Phoenix-Jean Grey to come back to the comics soon. Because I mean seriously WPOTC is up there with other cosmic entities, they're too powerful for earthly combat. I think marvel has done the right thing in bringing the past Jean Grey from another universe, to fill the shoes. WPOTC in my opinion like other abstracts should only be seen when they're completely and utterly necessary. Like the universe is going to die and they're needed....like I'm Here Comes Tomorrow, etc. Otherwise they'd be too powerful amongst humans. Even Hope as white phoenix, would be too much to stay in Earth as a human. That's my opinion though.

#14 Posted by ubungqingili (114 posts) - - Show Bio

I knew she was the phoenix perhaps every omega level evolves into a cosmic threat.

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