Jean Grey without the Phoenix Force.

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#1 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio

It seems to me that Jean Grey without the Phoenix Force is not that powerful or menacing of an opponent. While Jean has defeat Emma, I don't see any other impressive feats of Jean without the Phoenix Force. 
 
It is hard, though, to say Jean without the Phoenix Force, because Jean is Phoenix.
 
Any thoughts?

#2 Posted by Gene_Pool (647 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest, Jean has been the Phoenix for so long, its hard to remember her before she became Phoenix. Maybe they were going to make her Phoenix all along.
#3 Edited by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gene_Pool : Agreed. When Stryfe defeated her, she was not Phoenix.
#4 Posted by Gene_Pool (647 posts) - - Show Bio

In fact, Jean Grey was already Phoenix long before I was born.
#5 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gene_Pool : ???       %Pr
#6 Posted by latilya89 (12 posts) - - Show Bio

hi! new to the vine. Jean is a omega level mutant with unlimited psionic capabilities. I believe she is a powerful character. dont discredit her she been around along time, and i hate that people on here say she is weak without the phoenix in the 90s and early 200s she didnt have it and was still a badass character.
#7 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@latilya89: You seem like a nice person. 
 
Any evidence to support your claims?
#8 Posted by cmkphoenixfan1 (93 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean is a powerful mutant without the pf but she holds back a lot. Read the X-factor comics. She didnt have the pf in them and was the strongest member at the time. She only had tk up to 66 and then she regained her tp. I f u want to see jeans tp action then look into the revolution books.
#9 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne: Apparently Apocalypse defeated her via telepathy, rather easily. 
#10 Edited by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne: I thought that that was MR. Sinister.
 
It happened in the Twelve, by the way. 
 
Stryfe, Mr. Sinister also defeated Jean. 
#11 Posted by Gene_Pool (647 posts) - - Show Bio
@cracks:
So? Mr Sinister is a powerful villain in his own right, and there's nothing wrong with Jean losing once in awhile.
#12 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gene_Pool : True.  Not powerful enough to avoid getting killed by Mystique though. Or to get knocked out cold by X-Man.
#13 Posted by The Phoenix Child (561 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean without the Phoenix Force is always the character that holds back but after her visit in the future with her then husband where she had 12 years of training the young Cable she grew to be more confident. In fact, when she came back she decided to use her real potential, much to the dismay of her husband and some of her team mates as the thought of dark phoenix lingers.  
 
In one of her encounters, she has been said to be able to crush a man's bone by a mere thought, this is the time she was fighting Sabretooth and clearly said that if Sabretooth is a firecracker, well she is an Atomic Bomb - which I truly agree... if we are to follow the AOA storyline that is much aligned with the Earth-616 powers of the X-Men, Jean is the one who saved the entire mutant population by stopping all the nuclear bombs thrown at them. She is mutant Alpha - the strongest of them all.

#14 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Phoenix Child:True and interesting.
 
 Yet Sinister and Apoc. defeated her.                 Also, any telekinetic could stop all of those nuclear bombs.         %Pr
#15 Posted by The Phoenix Child (561 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually not all telekinetics can stop nuclear bombs.
 
You have to put in mind that when the X-Men fight they do not intend to kill because if their true intention is to kill then their power manifestation will be different. Jean always holds back with fights, like Storm, Professor X, Havok,  and even Iceman for that matter, that is why some characters appear to be stronger than them like Emma Frost because she doesn't hesitate to use what she got. A good example is Professor X versus Magneto, Magneto could have been comatose long long ago but Professor X did not out of respect for his friend even when he constantly kill people around him but when pushed to his limits, Professor X did the unthinkable but again he held back he just took away Magneto's ego but not totally shut down his brain totally, killing him instantly, a feat of a telepath with his calibre can do if he wanted to.
 
I agree that Jean losing a battle is not a bad way to show that even the best sometimes loses a battle. 

#16 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Phoenix Child: Which telekinetics can't?       %Pr
#17 Posted by mario_nblc (116 posts) - - Show Bio
@cracks: i think you should read more x-men where jean is using her powers.. it seems all you are doing is bringing up one thing of her loosing and not paying attention to what The Phoenix Child is trying to explain to you ... 
#18 Posted by The_Greatest_Username (159 posts) - - Show Bio

Hi...this is my first post...so...anyways... 
 
Jean is a pretty powerful psychic without the Phoenix Force, she just rarely uses that power due to her compassionate nature... 
for example she was able to shatter Xavier's psyche and scatter it into the minds of mutants all over the world then rebuild it flawlessly (she did this w/o the Phoenix) I don't have a scan with me but the issue is New X-Men #120-something I believe... 
and even completely pre-Phoenix Jean has shown powerful feats, she was able to attack Juggernaut through his helmet 
 
#19 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne:  My apologies. I can't post the scan here, but where Sinister defeats Jean, here it is on this page:
 
 http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/cable-vs-exodus/419551/#46
 
Furthermore, I remember Apocalypse defeating Jean via telepathy in "The Twelve" storyline. 
 
 
#20 Posted by Charmix (11838 posts) - - Show Bio
@cmkphoenixfan1 said:
" Jean is a powerful mutant without the pf but she holds back a lot. Read the X-factor comics. She didnt have the pf in them and was the strongest member at the time. She only had tk up to 66 and then she regained her tp. I f u want to see jeans tp action then look into the revolution books. "
Didn't she hold back an explosion and used her powers for days without resting in X-Factor?:)
#21 Posted by jeangreyemmafrost (119 posts) - - Show Bio

she would still be powerful, well shes an omega
 
 
well except the phoenix would stop messing with her life

#22 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean was Omega anyway, that's why she was able to sustain as a host to the Phoenix.

#23 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@John Valentine: Well, it was a part of her mutation. Jean Grey all the way to White Phoenix of the Crown. The most powerful mutant by far. 
#24 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
@cracks said:
" @John Valentine: Well, it was a part of her mutation. Jean Grey all the way to White Phoenix of the Crown. The most powerful mutant by far.  "

False. Nate Grey is probably more powerful.
#25 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
"@John Valentine said:
"@cracks said:
" @John Valentine: Well, it was a part of her mutation. Jean Grey all the way to White Phoenix of the Crown. The most powerful mutant by far.  "
False. Nate Grey is probably more powerful. "
False, Jeans is the ultimate mutation and it makes her one the Phoenix Force she is certainly more powerful. "

Canon evidence begs to differ. 

Moira Mactaggert suggested his psionic powers rivalled that of a Phoenix-Force imbued Jean Grey (X-Man #12; Excalibur #95). 
In another instance, he was measured as having a psionic energy output matching that of the Dark Phoenix (Cable Vol. 1, #29).
#26 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
" @John Valentine said:
"@Phoenix of the Black Throne said:
"@John Valentine said:
"@cracks said:
" @John Valentine: Well, it was a part of her mutation. Jean Grey all the way to White Phoenix of the Crown. The most powerful mutant by far.  "
False. Nate Grey is probably more powerful. "
False, Jeans is the ultimate mutation and it makes her one the Phoenix Force she is certainly more powerful. "

Canon evidence begs to differ. 

Moira Mactaggert suggested his psionic powers rivalled that of a Phoenix-Force imbued Jean Grey (X-Man #12; Excalibur #95). 
In another instance, he was measured as having a psionic energy output matching that of the Dark Phoenix (Cable Vol. 1, #29). "
when Moira tested "Jean" she registered off the charts and Moira was also the first to say that her powers were only growing on a geometric scale with every use, the only comparision between the two was the fact that both of them registered off the charts, Moira had not seen energy readings like that since Jean as Phoenix, the output of Dark Phoenix was never gauged.  It is also not an accurate measurement because Nates maximum output was gauged to only be able to destroy half the world, Dark Phoenix destroyed a sun roughly the size of Earths sun, and was stated to be able to destroy the universe.  Canon suggests that he rivaled those peliminary readings, but canon also shows her ultimate form being more powerful than what he was originally compared to.  Jean became White Phoenix through evolution and his entire genome is based off hers which was AOA Sinisters intent to harness the power of Jean Grey as a weapon via Nate, the major difference being Nate cannot naturally contain the amount of power that Jean can when she becomes Phoenix.  He could barely contain his own energies, which were killing him until he was branded. "
Wow, sorry to make you angry.
#27 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@John Valentine: No. Both Nate Grey's and Jean Grey's raw power can not be calculated by Homo sapien means because they are very high, possibly infinite. Jean Grey has much more skill and experience than Nate.  Remember that Nate is rash and impetuous, while Jean is more calm, for the most part, and rarely lashes out.  Personality has a huge play in this.  However, even Nate needed that tattoo to prevent himself from burning out, but Jean did not need anything to use her full potential or her full power. 
#28 Posted by cmkphoenixfan1 (93 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Greatest_Username said:
"
Hi...this is my first post...so...anyways... 
 
Jean is a pretty powerful psychic without the Phoenix Force, she just rarely uses that power due to her compassionate nature... 
for example she was able to shatter Xavier's psyche and scatter it into the minds of mutants all over the world then rebuild it flawlessly (she did this w/o the Phoenix) I don't have a scan with me but the issue is New X-Men #120-something I believe... 
and even completely pre-Phoenix Jean has shown powerful feats, she was able to attack Juggernaut through his helmet 
 
"

I always thought jean as marvel girl was a lot stronger than people gave her credit for. 
#29 Posted by NeoAndroid (173 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey's power is immense on its own, the phoenix is just the natural progression. I guess you could say she is a god walking among mortals, and even gods sometimes loss at something. I have to say here telekensis and telepathy were really showed in New Xmen too. Especially when she put a part of Charles in every living mutant then reconsituted him. And her telekensis is a power that is so strong i guess anyone would need a leach for it. 
 
If she can resurecct herself, and stop the passage of time (maybe via her Telekensis)
Oh and this was taken from her page:

 

She manifests a “telekinetic sensitivity” (called “the Manifestation of the Phoenix”) to objects in her immediate environment that lets her feel the texture of objects, their molecular patterns, feel when other objects come into contact with them, and probe them at a molecular level. She can also create stargates that can transport her to anywhere in the universe instantaneously. When she engages her Phoenix powers, Jean is surrounded in a flame-like energy corona that takes the form of a large bird of prey. As the Phoenix, Jean can resurrect herself after death and is unaffected by the passage of time. It should be noted that she isn’t “borrowing” the powers of the Phoenix Force (as is perceived by some due to the fact that Jean was a host for the Force); Death itself has said that Jean is the rightful owner of those powers. 
  

#30 Posted by The Phoenix Child (561 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe its a matter of time before Jean can learn her abilities to chronoskim like what Rachel was able to do.

#31 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio

Hyperstorm would give Rachel Grey a good fight.       %Pr

#32 Posted by The_Greatest_Username (159 posts) - - Show Bio

@cmkphoenixfan1 
 
I agree 
 also probably shoulda made that pic bigger lol...
#33 Posted by cracks (6625 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Greatest_Username: lol     %Pr
#34 Edited by Edamame (28372 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gene_Pool said:

" To be honest, Jean has been the Phoenix for so long, its hard to remember her before she became Phoenix. Maybe they were going to make her Phoenix all along. "

At what age did Jean Grey first begin to bond with the Phoenix Force? What are Jean Grey's most impressive feats when she is not bonded with the Phoenix Force? 
 
@The Phoenix Child said:
" Actually not all telekinetics can stop nuclear bombs. You have to put in mind that when the X-Men fight they do not intend to kill because if their true intention is to kill then their power manifestation will be different. Jean always holds back with fights, like Storm, Professor X, Havok,  and even Iceman for that matter, that is why some characters appear to be stronger than them like Emma Frost because she doesn't hesitate to use what she got. A good example is Professor X versus Magneto, Magneto could have been comatose long long ago but Professor X did not out of respect for his friend even when he constantly kill people around him but when pushed to his limits, Professor X did the unthinkable but again he held back he just took away Magneto's ego but not totally shut down his brain totally, killing him instantly, a feat of a telepath with his calibre can do if he wanted to.  I agree that Jean losing a battle is not a bad way to show that even the best sometimes loses a battle.  "

Which telekinetics can't stop nuclear bombs?
#35 Posted by Wildstar (1012 posts) - - Show Bio

Give me 90's Jean Grey over that stupid Phoenix shyt anyday. The phoenix crap just took a borderline interesting character and makes most people want her to stay dead. Lame writers come up with lame shyt all the time. Phoenix just happens to be up there with the Red Hulk.
#36 Posted by uncanny89 (818 posts) - - Show Bio

 think that written well Jean/Phoenix is a very good character, but sadly no writer has come close to getting the depth of character jean had when CC was writing the books in the 70's and 80's. 
 
when jean comes back i hope she is just the regular jean  
#37 Posted by kai1309 (32 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Jean is Phoenix, but we all can agree on THE Phoenix is annoying but then again Jean is the Phoenix . I hope HOPE SUMMERS is Jean but don't have her memories because I wanna see her personality.
#38 Posted by mgrman5 (593 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean is very powerful mutant and is on the class of Silver Surfer level. An example is Cable vs. Silver Surfer. Cable put up a crazy fight against Surfer and lost imagine his way more powerful mom. She would be on par with the Surfer.
#39 Posted by Mercer (33 posts) - - Show Bio
@mgrman5 said:
"Jean is very powerful mutant and is on the class of Silver Surfer level. An example is Cable vs. Silver Surfer. Cable put up a crazy fight against Surfer and lost imagine his way more powerful mom. She would be on par with the Surfer. "

You need to go back to rehab, son. Jean without the PF got pimp-whipped by Legion in Legion Quest. Psi-whipped by Onslaught. Bully-whipped by Exodus. SS would school her. And Full power Cable did things that Jean without the PF never did. Leave the drugs alone. I know alot of it has to do with his Askani training. You do people try to act like Jean was the only person who taught Cable how to use his powers? The Askani training has more to do with who he is and the level of refinement he's always shown. 
#40 Posted by xmenfallen (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

jean without the phoenix is still a very powerful character in the 90's cartoon it showed there her without it although she doesnt have many screen time but if you recall she was quite powerful there i think the phoenix force chose her because she is powerful

#41 Posted by Thunderscream (1807 posts) - - Show Bio

During the Phalanx run, She lifted the Blackbird enduring considerable strain. I prefer her at that power level, able to display some impressive oomph (like holding the space shuttle together upon descent through Earth's atmosphere, which she and Psylocke have each done on separate occasions) but once she starts sifting through matter on a molecular level....I get weary. Vulnerability makes characters more interesting to me.

#42 Posted by mindbender (24 posts) - - Show Bio

jean grey without the phinoxe force emma frost is the best now
#43 Posted by ChadwickDavis (444 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree completely 
Most people tend to forget how she acquired the phoenix force to begin with. After a trip from the Shiar galaxy used her telepathy and telekinesis to shield the ship and her friends from the cosmic radiation and heat from the reentry. it was the strain of this ordeal and her strength of will is what got the attention of the Phoenix force in the first place.   

Her non phoenix force power is often downplayed by her children (all of which are from other dimensions) who have access to the phoenix force or are on "phoenix force levels," her clones, her multiple resurrections, and her Cyclops/ Wolverine romance triangle. 
Essentially she is the First Lady of the X-Men a role that has been filled (to limited degrees) by characters as like Storm and  Emma Frost but because of the phoenix force people tend to forget that she was a formidable force long before she was known as the "Phoenix host" 
I think that Marvel needs to bring her back simply because she is a great character... NOT TO ADVANCE SOME "SHE WILL RISE AGAIN PLOT. 

#44 Posted by hyperbeing (415 posts) - - Show Bio

@cracks: she was defeated by apocolype cause she was so shocked on what was under his aumor she stoped and left herself open. powerful doesnt mean unbeatable. itsa aalso about skill and more.

#45 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

Well telek is really powerful power and she has to an extreme she could easily just move anyone's heart form their chest or make it expload XD.

#46 Posted by hyperbeing (415 posts) - - Show Bio

@oviouslyjeangrey: more then that jean grey has yet to telise her powers potentiol

#47 Posted by mgrman5 (593 posts) - - Show Bio

How strong is Jean's telekinesis without the power of the Phoenix, but still at maximum power. Is her telekinesis stronger than X-man's or Exodus' can she stop a hydrogen bomb.

#48 Edited by zappingmania (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey without Phoenix, she will be like Psylocke or Emma Frost, then why I dislike Jean Grey, very easy answer, Phoenix, Phoenix is the big problem of this character, I think Claremore was wrong with his idea that a woman needs to be strong by her powers, and this is the case of Jean Grey, I think Jean Grey was cool with her psychic powers, like shields and levitation, I think it was interesting that she didnt use a codename, she was just Jean Grey and for some time marvel girl xD, why she needs to be Phoenix, even the xmen movies were ruined by that firebird, the best part of Phoenix saga its the end, when she discover that her power its too much to handle it, and she just give up to life as a way to save her love ones, thats the epic moment. But then what happen, guess what, she isnt dead, she is inmortal and the most powerful being of the whole marvel line and mostly DC too xD

#49 Posted by timonski (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix imbued Jean grey's DNA plus scott summers' DNA= nate grey. Remember scott's DNA acts as a catalyst. Therefore cable w/o the T/O virus is more powerful jean.

^ this!

#50 Posted by timonski (16 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix imbued Jean grey's DNA plus scott summers' DNA= nate grey. Remember scott's DNA acts as a catalyst. Therefore cable w/o the T/O virus is more powerful jean.

^ this!

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